Recently, my friend Eric asked me what sorts of things I wanted to have happen at my bachelor party. I said (among other things) that I’d really enjoy some benign boundary violations. Eric went ???? Subsequently: an essay. We use the word "boundary" to mean at least two things, when we’re discussing people’s personal boundaries. The first is their actual self-defined boundary—the line that they would draw, if they had perfect introspective access, which marks the transition point from "this is okay" to "this is no longer okay." Different people have different boundaries: There are all sorts of different domains in which we have those different boundaries. If the above were a representation of people’s feelings about personal space, then the person on the left would probably be big into hugs and slaps-on-the-shoulder, while the one on the right might not be comfortable sharing an elevator with more than one other person (if that). If the above were a representation of, say, people’s openness to criticism, then the person on the left probably wouldn’t mind if you told them their presentation sucked, in front of an audience of their friends, colleagues, and potential romantic partners. Meanwhile, the person on the right would probably prefer that you send a private message checking to see whether they were even interested in critical feedback at this time. Obviously, a diagram like the one above leaves out a lot of important nuance. For instance, a given person often has different boundaries within the same domain, depending on context—you may be very comfortable with intimate touch with your spouse and three closest friends, but very uncomfortable receiving hugs from strangers. And you may be quite comfortable receiving touches on the shoulder from just about anyone, but very uncomfortable receiving touches on the thigh. The above also doesn’t do a great job of showing uncertainty in one’s boundaries, which is often substantial. The "grey area" between okay and not okay might be quite small, in some cases (you have a clear, unambiguous "line" that you do not want crossed) and quite wide in others where you’re not sure how you feel, and you might not know exactly where that gradient begins and ends. But for any given domain, and any given context, most people could at least a little bit describe where their boundaries lie. They’re okay with the a-word, but not with the f-word. They’re okay with friends borrowing $50, but they’re not okay with family members asking for co-signers on a loan. They’re okay with somebody crumpling up a post-it note and playfully throwing it at them, but they’re not okay being hit in the face with a water balloon. There’s a different thing altogether that people mean when they talk about boundaries, and that’s something like what society tells us is okay. This, too, is context-dependent; different subcultures have different expectations and norms between those subcultures can vary a lot. What’s in-bounds on LW is different from what’s in-bounds on FB, and what’s in-bounds on 4chan is different still. But for any given subculture, it seems to me that society tries to set the boundaries at something like "ninety percent of the present/relevant/participating people will not have their personal boundaries violated." In other words, the boundary given by social convention is set in approximately the same place as the personal boundary of the 90th-percentile sensitive person. (Others may disagree with me about the number, and may think that it’s set at seventy percent or ninety-five percent or whatever, and certainly this number, too, varies depending on all sorts of factors, e.g. groups are more likely to be conservative in domains that feel more fraught or dangerous.) What this means is that most people have a delta between what is okay for them personally, and what’s deemed okay by society-at-large. This delta can go either way—relatively sensitive or disadvantaged people are often told that their reaction to a personal boundary violation is "their fault," or "overreacting," or "unfortunate, but that’s just something you’re going to have to get used to, if you’re going to make it around here," because the action taken was on the right side of the normative boundary, which was not set via a process which validates their needs. But in most cases, most people’s boundaries lie within the limit set by the social norm—often well within. It’s interesting to consider the role that the social boundary plays. Violations of it—whether we’re talking about personal space, or noise pollution, or probing, intimate questions, or whatever—are super common. They’re common in the same way that violations of the speed limit are common, and (I think) for similar reasons. A relevant anecdote: I once co-signed a lease on a rental property in Berkeley, CA. The property manager offered us a contract that was full of outlandish terms, such as "no visitors for more than two nights without paying an additional $80/night to the landlord." The property manager freely admitted that these terms were absurd, and that he did not expect us to abide by them in the slightest. They were there, he said, so that if we turned out to be assholes, he would have a way to pry us out of the house. Berkeley, CA is extremely friendly to tenants, relative to landlords, so having a contract in which we were unambiguously in breach from day 1 would prove useful. (Or so the property manager thought, anyway; I don’t know how that would actually play out in court). This reminded me at the time of traffic law. Approximately everyone is in violation of traffic law at approximately all times. This is usually ignored because it is, in fact, usually fine to go 51mph instead of 45mph. But the nominal speed limit provides an unambiguous standard to refer to in the event that something else goes wrong. A highway safety patroller may not always be able to make their intuitions about a dangerous traffic situation legible or convincing, but they can say to a judge "the person in question was going nine miles per hour over the limit." (Here I will not get into questions about the use or abuse of such a power structure, only note that it exists.) Social boundaries are similarly flexible and permeable. They provide something like a retroactively defensible position. Take an action which is generically off-limits—say, an open hand placed on someone’s upper arm. This is not the sort of thing one does with strangers in most of America, and in most workplaces this is not the sort of thing one does with colleagues. It’s also the sort of thing that many people would not, in fact, mind or be threatened by. But the boundary is there in case, because that is in fact scary or disruptive for a non-negligible number of people*.* If you are in the office and a colleague places their open hand on your arm and you knock their hand away and say "don’t touch me," the fact that "don’t touch your coworkers" is a common-knowledge boundary provides you with something like ready-made social support. You can be reasonably confident that other people will agree that this is not okay, even if those same people might not have gone so far as to object independently, on their own initiative. (In the ideal, anyway. Harassment still seems rampant; this may be an overly optimistic example and I’m sure there are people reading who can attest to not being supported in just such an objection. I was tempted to make the example more extreme, but when I imagined doing so it was still easy to imagine readers going "nope, lol, I was literally groped and they still told me it was my fault." I don’t have anything useful to say, except to apologize on behalf of the species Homo Sapiens.) Another way to say this is that the social boundary is something like a hint, as to what other people will help you prosecute. It’s not a perfect hint, and there’s often imperfect coordination on it, but it’s more like "if X happens and you don’t like it, we will back you up" than it is like "we will object every time X happens." This is because X is (usually) a somewhat broad and conservative boundary, like the speed limit. Which means that, for most people, most of the time, there is room to cross it, without actually infringing on the individual’s personal boundary: A few caveats:
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As intimated above, in any given domain, there will be some people for whom that in-between space literally does not exist. If society’s boundaries are set such that they’re already inside of your own personal boundaries, then people behaving "normally" according to the rules of the group are already doing things that are not-okay for you, on the regular, as a matter of course. While this essay is not going to focus on that subset of people, I wanted to pause to acknowledge that a) that subset exists, b) it contains a lot of people, in an absolute sense, and c) what’s happening to those people is unpleasant and in many cases morally bad. It’s not that this mismatch isn’t worth an essay—it is. It’s just not the subject of this essay.
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I suspect some people’s minds will have leapt straight to the (true!) point that many actions which penetrate into that in-between space are something like grooming or testing-the-waters—that they are a prelude to, or a harbinger of, some future not-okay action. This seems straightforwardly correct, to me. Again, I want to focus my attention elsewhere, without denying that this is a thing. It is a thing! But I’m not particularly interested in discussing that thing here, nor in getting into the nitty-gritty of how to tell it apart from the other thing, which is not sinister, and not a prelude to anything Bad. Both categories definitely exist, and I’m interested in focusing only on the subset of actions which the individual in question would stably rate as benign. Speaking of which...
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For the purposes of my usage here, "benign" is not a label that can be applied to [a violation of the social boundary] absent a specific individual in a specific context. A phrase like "having a pie smushed in your face is a benign boundary violation" is non-valid. The only way to tell that a given social boundary violation is benign is to find out, from the individual, whether it in fact failed to violate their personal boundary. Without an individual to ask, the question "is this benign?" can’t be answered.Another way to say this is that benign-ness is a property that’s determined by how a given action actually lands, not by how it is intended. And the only person qualified to make that evaluation is the recipient.Yet another way is to say that if it did, in fact, cross your personal boundary, then it was by definition not benign in the sense intended here. That, then, is the category I’m hoping to talk about: actions which, by the individual’s own self-report, non-pressured and endorsed across time, would be considered benign, despite the fact that they cross one of the lines drawn by society-at-large. I think this category exists, and is not small—I don’t know whether we’re in a world that looks more like Possibility 1 below, or more like Possibility 2, but I don’t think the green circle is tiny or non-existent. Continuing the caveat a little bit: I predict that nonzero readers will be something-like offended, or perhaps alarmed, that I’m trying to crystallize a concept like "benign boundary violation" at all, since it could e.g. be abused to *give cover *to those other, worse things.
(Actually, not even "could." More like "absolutely will be, at a population level." If the phrase "benign boundary violation" were commonplace, it would definitely be used as a cover, in exactly the same way that "relax, man, it’s just a joke" is used as a cover.) So why talk about it anyway? Mainly, because I think that benign boundary violations are super duper important. (As are jokes! The solution to people abusing the joke-label is not to abolish jokes-as-a-category. People can call something benign when it is not, and often will, for nefarious reasons, but that doesn’t mean that things which are benign don’t exist.) In my own personal experience, benign boundary violations are a crucial part of me feeling safe, and accepted, and part-of-the-group. They are an essential ingredient of my version of close friendship. There is a very strong correlation between: [periods of my life in which benign boundary violations were absent] and [periods of my life in which I was depressed and anxious and lonesome and alienated]. This also seems to me to be true for many other people that I know (more men/male-ish folk than women/female-ish, though also many women in an absolute sense; I would be curious to hear from people in the comments whether others’ impressions differ). And in my own personal experience, they are an endangered species. They are scarcer now than they were ten years ago, and they were scarcer ten years ago than they were in my childhood (especially in the bluer and lefter parts of our society). Here is a short list of some benign boundary violations in my own experience (remember, the fact that they are benign for me does not imply they are generally so): -
Being punched when a Volkswagen Beetle drives by
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Being called "faggot," affectionately, by my partners, in private
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Being pushed into the pool by my fiancé Logan while all my clothes are on (but not my wallet or phone; they surreptitiously checked)
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Being pelted with water balloons or suddenly assaulted with pillows or Nerf darts
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Having ice dropped down the back of my shirt
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Someone jumping out and yelling "BOO!" at me as I emerge from the bathroom
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Someone taking and using my objects (desk, exercise equipment, toys, Magic decks, books, clothes) without asking
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Someone taking and using small amounts of my money ("I took a $20 from your desk drawer to pay the pizza guy; he couldn’t take a card.") without asking
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Someone coming up behind me and scratching my back or squeezing my shoulders or tousling my hair
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Being fed a prank food or made to smell a prank horrible smell
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Having an embarrassing story from my past told in front of someone I have a crush on, for the purposes of making me blush in front of that person
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Banter/countersignaling (being insulted, rejected, and mocked by and in front of friends)
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Being knocked over on a trampoline and then repeatedly bounced such that I can’t find my feet again and keep flailing and floundering on my back ...these are all things which, if someone were to express distress over experiencing, I expect would generally be met with sympathy, solidarity, and support. e.g. if I were to tell a friend that I did not like how my housemate took money out of my desk, it’s quite likely that friend would validate my discomfort, become some level of outraged on my behalf, and say sentences like "yeah, that’s called ‘theft’" or "you don’t have to put up with that crap." In other words, while many of the items on the list above are still something-like-inside-the-Overton-window and wouldn’t necessarily generate active pushback by default, they’re definitely the sort of things that are Officially Off Limits, in the same way as driving 74mph in a 65 zone. If you just joined my team at our white-collar workplace three days ago and I push you into the pool with all your clothes on, you will likely not have a hard time making the label "hostile work environment" stick, should you choose to try. So they are indeed past the social boundary. But they didn’t violate my boundaries. As far as I can tell, there are at least three major ways in which the actions above fed my immortal soul:
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They showed that I was known. By attempting an anticipated-to-be-benign boundary violation (remember, the giver can’t declare it benign, they can only hope), the person who took my money or pushed me into a pool or teasingly insulted me was, at least a little bit, demonstrating that they knew me distinct from their Generic Undifferentiated Cardboard Cutout of a Fellow Society Member. They were making a bet that my line was in a different place than the party line, trying things that they would not try with an unknown human.
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They showed that I was trusted. By attempting an anticipated-to-be-benign boundary violation, they implicitly demonstrated that, if it turned out not to be benign, they figured we would be able to handle it, and that our relationship would be able to survive it. There’s a combination of "Duncan isn’t made of glass" and "Duncan will not be vindictive or malicious in response, even if this lands poorly" in their estimation of the risk as small-enough-to-be-worth-it.
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They gave me actual experiences that I want. Experiences that are disapproved-of by the society at large, experiences which I enjoy and miss. I like banter. I like pranks. I like various things which are not appropriate for the 95th-percentile-vulnerable member of our society, but which are appropriate for me because *I am not that person. *When the social boundary becomes too broad *and *its enforcement too strong, what you get is something like "no sports allowed, because some people have glass bones," and sports are good for people who don’t have glass bones.(Spicy food is good for people who don’t have sensitive palates or irritable bowels; loud music is good for people who don’t have sensory processing disorders; Reese’s cups are good for people who don’t have peanut allergies; etc.) The problem, of course, is how to get the goods to the people who want and can handle them, without exposing the vulnerable to damage (and, on the meta level, whether to err on the side of caution or incaution, and on the meta-meta level, by how much). Currently, we seem to be trending both toward wider social boundaries and toward harsher and more explosive intermittent enforcement of those boundaries, which has had the obvious chilling effect on well-intentioned flouting of the nominal rules. I see various proposals for solving problems like widespread touch deprivation downstream of our personal space boundaries expanding, but they all seem to dismiss a set of costs as not-being-costs, rather than properly weighing and accounting for them. For example: "Why don’t people just ask you if you’re chill with being hit with water balloons, and then ever after they can hit you with water balloons?" This is … kind of a solution. It’s plausible that it will end up being the correct tradeoff, vis-a-vis protecting the vulnerable (make everything explicitly opt-in, rather than having the option to opt out). But it runs afoul of either 1 or 2 above, depending on the details. If a friend sees that I need a hug, and goes in for one, and then suddenly hesitates, and then asks in mouthwords whether I want to be hugged (at which point I, in the middle of my emotional crisis, have to pause to assemble some kind of verbal response)— I don’t know. It’s … not as good. It’s not as good, because suddenly it has turned from "this is a gift" to "do you want this?" and the latter feels much more like Spending Points or Making An Active Decision. It’s not as good because suddenly it has turned from "I know you, and am confident and secure in the nature of our relationship" to "I do not know you, and am underconfident and insecure." Even in the best of cases, where the would-be hugger is not anxious or afraid or worried that I’ll punish them, and is instead motivated purely by a warmhearted desire to not make my day any worse, it’s still an update in the direction of diminished intimacy.
(Not to mention that a) there are a lot of domains in which just asking is punished anyway, and b) a lot of people are not particularly good at expressing themselves verbally, especially in confusing or stressful or high-uncertainty states, which means that as more of the Required Moves become verbal, more people are simply drummed out of the space.) And I can summon shoulder advisors who are wailing "why can’t we just ask? Why is it so terrible to just ask?" and all I can say is, I’m not saying the cost isn’t worth paying, I’d just like for it to be acknowledged as being a cost, so we can actually try doing the math. We haven’t banned Reese’s from all public spaces, even though this is a hardship for people with peanut allergies, because it saves too few at too high a cost. I noticed that the above veered well into defending the category of benign boundary violations, when really I mostly set out to describe it. So, shifting gears. When I, personally, attempt what I hope will be a benign boundary violation, what I am doing is leaning on my knowledge of the other person as a unique individual, trusting our relationship to be sufficiently-deeply-rooted in good faith to survive a misstep if I make one, and trying to feed them a nutrient that our society specifically does not offer. (e.g. our society offers martial arts classes, which you can pay for and put into your weekly schedule. It does not offer friendly surprise attacks.) And I really, really like it when other people do this with me, as well. When they demonstrate that they know me, when they demonstrate that they trust me, and when they offer me something that is increasingly hard to come by. That’s three love languages in a single insult. Which is a pretty good rate, and that’s pretty much the thesis I wanted to convey. This is the part where I would like to have suggestions or recommendations or next actions, but I largely don’t. I didn’t anticipate this essay being nearly as fraught as it felt, when I first set out to write it. I thought that I would just say "sometimes it’s nice to be pushed into the pool," and explain my three reasons why, and that would be that. But my shoulder advisors kept getting really nervous, and so here we are, a million hedges and caveats later. It’s possible I’m wrong, and the other version of this essay would’ve been fine, but it’s interesting to me that I felt scared. In lieu of "what now?" I’d like to say a little more about one of the obstacles that seems to lie between us and (what seems to me to be) a better world. I don’t have a full model of it, but I can at least gesture in its direction. I once ran an experimental group house that involved some hierarchical structure, such that we would sometimes e.g. levy $5 fines on one another, for small infractions of agreed-upon rules. However, the $5 fine was approximately the only consequence that we had in the toolkit. If we were to need something larger, there was a vast, empty lack-of-options until we got all the way up to "I guess you can be kicked out of the experiment?" And, correspondingly, out of your house. Which was of course far too extreme of a response for any of the situations which actually came up, including several which were Too Big For A Symbolic Five-Dollar Fine. I sense in this something that rhymes with a known problem among victims of abuse, namely that they are often forced to choose between "get no justice whatsoever" and "throw your partner/parent/pastor into the meat grinder; destroy their life entirely." Faced with this choice, many victims of abuse say nothing, and suffer in silence. They would benefit from something a little more in-between—something short of turning their abuser into an absolute pariah, yet more consequential than a stern look. In my culture, we are also struggling with questions like "how do we strengthen protections for those who are still receiving malignant boundary violations?" and "what do we do for people whose personal boundaries lie outside the current social boundary, such that they are damaged by behavior that the society more or less explicitly permits?" However, in my culture, we are not attempting to solve those problems by … hmm … I do not have a less clumsy metaphor, but … "pretending nobody speeds"? Pretending nobody speeds, but also massively increasing the social penalty for people who are unambiguously caught speeding, such that if you are caught speeding a tenth of the population will all start loudly condemning you for going 74 in a 65, how dare you put the very fabric of our society at risk, you should never be hired by any company that uses cars ever again, et cetera. (And meanwhile the ten percent of people who pop up to defend you do so by saying stuff like "we should drive EVERY car at ONE HUNDRED MILES AN HOUR ALL THE TIME and anyone who doesn’t like it is WEAK and probably a PEDOPHILE and DESERVES WHAT THEY GET" which is not support that most of us want.) When it comes to boundary violations in particular, it seems to me that the middle ground is evaporating, as social media becomes an ever-more important part of our lives and our careers and approximately everybody weighs in on approximately everything that catches our collective attention and the zeitgeist lurches from one scandal to the next (while still ignoring 99.999% of all scandals). There’s often no response, in other words, until all of a sudden there is a very LARGE response. In my culture, there are things which should pretty obviously never be done, which are the metaphorical equivalent of going seventy in a school zone. No one thinks they are okay[1] and most people would not have an easy time just shrugging them off. Those things get strong punishment with no warnings, just like they do here. But in my culture, if you do the metaphorical equivalent of going nine over on the highway— —which is a thing that a supermajority of people have done at some point or other, and which a substantial fraction of people are actively doing at any given time, and which most people will acknowledge is a little sketchy but basically fine, as long as it’s not compounded by bad weather or tailgating or weaving in and out of traffic or whatever— —if you engage in common, everyday behavior which is genuinely hit-or-miss, and it comes out miss, you get the equivalent of a warning or a small fine, not a 99% chance of nothing and a 1% chance of being fired, canceled, and made a pariah. It certainly goes on your record, such that abusers can’t accumulate warnings with impunity, but it’s not responded-to with the same weapons that we use to respond to someone going seventy in a school zone. And as a result, people are a little less creeping and terrified. (Or, to be more accurate, *good *and ordinary people are less creeping and terrified, and thus the set of people occasionally going nine over isn’t only populated by [ideological nutjobs] and [sociopaths with no impulse control] who weren’t deterred in the first place.) It’s the difference between someone ruffling your hair in an unwanted fashion and someone, I don’t know, caressing your stomach. There are genuinely a lot of people out there who would enjoy having their hair spontaneously ruffled, and there are a lot more people who at least wouldn’t mind it. Stomach caresses, not so much. (And in my culture, it is absolutely the case that if someone ruffles your hair and you say "Do not do that; I do not like that" and they do it again, down comes the hammer. Because at that point, they have committed the much more serious offense of acting in direct contradiction of your expressly stated wishes about your bodily autonomy, which is a bright line in the same fashion as ignoring a "no" or a "stop" during sex.) But if someone is not a serial abuser on their third strike, they don’t have to worry super much about things like "what if I spontaneously ruffle my coworker’s hair and they take it 99th-percentile badly?" They do not have to worry about potentially losing their entire career over it, because someone successfully bailey-and-motte’d it into sexual assault and it blew up on twitter and your company has more important things to spend its social capital on than defending you so they quietly throw you under the bus. In my culture. Not in this one. In this one, we don’t seem to have very many medium-sized responses left. We have some responses which average out to medium-sized, in that they’re sometimes huge and usually nothing, but that’s not the same thing. And so sensible people are risking fewer probably-benign violations of the common-knowledge social boundaries, and thus an ever-greater percentage of the violations that do occur are decidedly not benign, and there’s an accelerating feedback loop and as a result I hardly ever get pushed into swimming pools anymore without signing a waiver first. (And there are also, I suspect, a lot of people with legitimate medium-sized grievances who are going without justice because the only tools they have at their disposal are frowny-face stickers and hand grenades, and the former doesn’t suffice and the latter feels like overkill.) To be clear: yes, a lack of getting pushed into swimming pools is a fairly small thing, compared to actual serious boundary violations. It’s a price worth paying, if it’s genuinely helping—I happily wore a mask during the pandemic because I do indeed believe that small inconveniences are sometimes worth it to protect other people from Very Bad Things. But I’m not convinced that it is helping. I’m not convinced that the drying-up of benign boundary violations is actually a side-effect of a real and ongoing improvement in outcomes for the most vulnerable among us, or a real and ongoing reduction in the amount of predatory behavior taking place. I’m not sure those things are even happening, and if they are, I’m not sure that this is part of why. Other conversations which are not quite this one, but which are certainly related, and are welcomed in discussion below: -
Okay but how do we strengthen protections for those who are still receiving malignant boundary violations all the time?
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What do we do for people whose personal boundaries lie outside the current social boundary, such that they are constantly being violated by behavior that the society does not object to or prevent?
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Is it actually possible to build a culture of supported opting-out, such that people could afford to be less intense about first transgressions?
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How do you actually distinguish genuinely meant attempts at benign boundary violations from grooming or testing-the-waters or other nefarious things? Can it actually reliably be done, in practice? Can the latter be prevented without necessarily curtailing or extinguishing the former?
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Can the goods of benign boundary violations be goal factored and got some other way?
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etc.
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^Which means that something like 4% of people will declare them to be okay; we round that to zero.
I’m on both sides of this issue. In some domanes my persoal boundary is way inside the soicially accepted one, and if I don’t get "benign boundary violations" I get low level depressed. But in other domanes my personal boundary is way outside the socially accepted one. There have been many occcations where I’ve told people that they crossed my boudary and they have refused to adjust or even not belived me at all.My personally prefered social norm solution to this would be:
Forgive first violations, but also make sure they learn form thier msistake. If they seem uninteressted in learning, maybe be less forgiving.
Severly punich people who don’t back off when told to.
Convice everyone that there exist peopel who are radicall diffrent from them, or something. I’m so fed up with not beeing belive when I explain how I’m diffrent. (This is not a problem amoing LWers.) I can survive boundary violation if I can trust that people back off when I tell them to. In the current culture, if somone violates my boundary I often start to panic, or just run off, becaus I don’t know if I will be respected or even belived if I tell them to stop. More often than not, telling people to stop just escalates the situation. (If you run into me in reall live and worry about crossing my boudaries, just let me know that you can respect a "no" and I’ll be fine.) Another thing that bothers me about our current consent culture is that there is so much focus on verbal concent, and almost no acknolagement of other ways to comunicate consent. Verbal consent is a powerfull tool, but it is also very inprecise. If you ask if you can ask me a personal question, how personal are we talking here? If I ask for a hug, what level of intimacy are we talking about? We could spend 15 minutes discussing exact what kind of hug, but most likely we would get nowhere.On the other hand. I have danced contact improvisation for may years. This dance involves a lot of touch. And becasue the dance is compleetly imrpovised (we sometims role around on the floor, inclugin roling over other people) there is no naural boundaries in the dance format. Also, usually we don’t talk on the dance floor. You don’t even ask peopel to dance with you. Instead you just find others on the dance floor and from there everything is comunicated non verbally. Not verbal consent is acctually not very hard, even with people you don’t know. You might already instinctivly know how to do it. For conversation it works like this: You start by asking a "small talk" level question. If the other person engages in your conversation (i.e. gives more than the most minimal answer) this is consent to keep talking. After that you slowly up the level of personall-ness of the conversation, while paying attention to the other person. As long as they match or go above your level you can keep going. If they start to avoid your questions, then you hit the boundary, this means you should back off a bit.For touch you start with some light touch (maybe you need to get the blunt verbal consent for this). If they respond to your touch (e.g. squese back, or in other ways lean into your touch) then this is concent to continue this level of touch. Now you can increase the level of touch *slowly *while paying attention to consent. If a person give no response at all to your toch (netiher avoiding or leaning into your touch) then this is *not *concent. This is no information. Maybe they are super unconfortable and froze. Maybe they didn’t notice your touch. Maybe they did notice and even liked it but don’t know how to respond. In this situation you should either back of or ask verbally.Noticing other peoples boundaries is a skill that you can train. But I think just knowing that this is a thing you can do, helps a lot. I definatly met people who don’t seem to know that they are supposed to pay attention to this.If you are att all unccertan at you skills of noticing non verbal consent: Make sure you are not allways the one increasing the level of intimacy. Ever now an then you should puse at the curent level and let the other person take the next step. And if they don’t you shoul’d either. Another test you can do is to lower the level of intimacy and see if the other person raises it back up. Meeting people who are skilled at non-verbal consent i great. It’s provides a similar safety to hanging out with somoene who knows me well.When I toch someone who is experienced in contact impov (or have similar skils from elswhere) I can feel that I am safe. I can feel that they notice me and I know that they will not cross my phyical boundaries.I have had a similar experience when talking to someone trained in circling or other authentic relating. I know I don’t have to tell them where my conversational boundaries are. I can notice them noticing me and adjusting to me from moment to moment.
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I agree that it’s not necessarily strong evidence, but it should in most cases focus your attention pretty heavily on a narrow subset of [hypotheses which would tend to produce that claim], one of which is usually [that claim being true]. You probably already agree with that, but I wanted to spell it out.
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Yeah, it’s a really good example of getting just enough bits to privilege the hypothesis.
I was mostly thinking of situations where someone thinks that if something is not a problem for them, it can’t possibly be a problem for anyone else. If everyone have an above zero prior on "this other person might be very diffrent from me", that would be a great improvment.
Strong upvote because:
Forgive first violations, but also make sure they learn from their mistake. If they seem uninterested in learning, maybe be less forgiving.
Severely punish people who don’t back off when told to.
Convince everyone that there exist people who are radically different from them, or something. I’m so fed up with not being believed when I explain how I’m different. (This is not a problem among LWers.) is almost exactly the Duncan-culture solution as well.
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From what I’ve read of your facebook posts, I think I would be happy living in Duncan culture.
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The one LW community weekend I attended had stickers you could put on your name-tag one for people who welcomed hugs and another one for people who welcomed unsolicited feedback. It was great!
A thing I sort-of hoped to see in the "a few caveats" section:
That’s an interesting perspective. At this point, I’d concluded all violations are mainly challenges. Since most people are socially skilled enough to smell weakness from a mile away, they know when they can assert their status by conspicuously disregarding your presumable boundaries, thus advertising, to you and to any bystanders, that you have no credible means to defend yourself and are therefore entirely at their mercy. What I’ve found the hardest to learn is that merely asking someone to respect your boundaries may well be itself a violation of their boundaries ("Noöne replies to me like that!"), which they most assuredly will defend, by escalating the abuse to prove the point that you’re no match for them and have no choice but to yield, unconditionally, forever. Calling abusers abusers offends them. That’s part of the fight. Bullying works by normalizing the idea that there’s nothing morally wrong with harming the victim. After all, they deserve it for being a victim, rather than a survivor, don’t they?
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I think that the world you describe is true for you, and for many, but I just … I just live in a different one.
Interestingly AFAICT Australian culture has more inter-personal benign boundary violations than US culture as described in this post (e.g. calling your friends words that are unprintable in this forum), and also strict legal enforcement of speed limits, COVID rules, etc.
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Maybe what I thought was autism was actually australianism.
This reads as a rewrite of (some parts of?) the punch bug post (which I didn’t like at the time) with several years’ more wisdom. I really appreciate the careful precise delineation of the exact things you do and don’t mean; I think this works very well here.
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To be clear, I think I have zero percent shifted my sense of, like, what’s good and healthy, or what society is doing to people, or what the tradeoffs are, or whatever, since punch bug. I haven’t updated any of the *underlying models *(e.g. I reread punch bug and don’t think any of the sections are wrong). To the extent that you’re seeing added wisdom, I would guess it’s mostly in being more skilled at not running afoul of people’s triggers.
There’s a theory of humor called benign violation theory.
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Yeah, I was hoping to catch a little resonance there.
Besides the scope of a person’s boundaries, there’s also variance in how bad a boundary violation feels. Those of us who experience boundary violations as particularly negative might prefer others not to try to find benign violations, even if the violator is well-intentioned and sincerely promises to never do that specific thing again. For these people, would-be violators’ fear of punishment is a feature. The same goes for people unlikely to experience a benign violation because their gap between social and personal boundaries is small.
Cultures without slagging are somewhat unpleasant to me, they are an important form of roughhouse playing that helps people construct and maintain boundaries. In the same way that I expect children physically restrained from physical play with one another, including wrestling etc, to have social autoregulation problems as adults.
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I’d love to see a top-level post on this, with a few examples more specific than "kids today are coddled and weak" (which I don’t know if you’re saying but a lot of non-LW people have said). I had a really unpleasant time in early grades, before I found my clique of nerds in high school, and I’d love to hear recommendations of what parts of that experience should be preserved for others. Based on my experiences, I tend to believe that "consent" in roughhousing and verbal put-downs, especially for pre-teen children (though young adulthood for some), is impossible—some participants are mostly victims, and they don’t have a way to opt out.
I do see the point that a whole lot of things (and people) in life are unpleasant and unavoidable, and it’s better for most to learn coping strategies early rather than being unprepared. At early ages, I learned mostly avoidance and anger, but got more sophisticated later. I hope many would have the support and more diverse social experiences to learn better responses earlier, but it’s hard for me to recommend it. Maybe this is just another case of avoiding typical mind fallacy and recognizing that one size does not fit all. I’m happy to be reminded that a somewhat adversarial culture is considered a good thing by some.
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I think consent can be obtained often, but also if only the skilled version of something is allowed then de facto kids aren’t allowed to do it.
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A corollary: if only the skilled version of something is allowed, then learning the skill is de facto not allowed.
Can you think of some specific examples of an important kind of physical play where the consent of the other kid can’t be obtained explicitly (if that’s what you have in mind)?
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I can’t think of any examples where consent cannot be obtained explicitly (barring things like, the person is currently in a state where they’re not capable of being verbal or processing verbal communication, or whatever). The point is that there is a cost associated with obtaining explicit verbal consent. I think that it’s entirely plausible that that is, nevertheless, exactly the way to go—that this is the right distribution of costs, to protect people who are otherwise vulnerable. But I don’t think we can actually do the math unless we actually weigh the costs and take them into account. I think a certain kind of person thinks that explicit verbal communication is costless, and tends to typical-mind about this, and thereby not validate its costly nature for People Unlike Themselves (of whom there are a lot). Roughhousing-in-general is an example of the sort of place where, for a lot of humans and probably a majority (and probably a supermajority of males), obtaining explicit consent à la "wanna have a pillow fight?" is notably less nourishing than picking up a pillow and swinging away.
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I agree (even though I would always err on the side of asking). I see three options:
Starting right away with a pillow fight. This has a potential of turning out to be highly uncomfortable/emotionally hurtful to a kid who doesn’t want to be suddenly hit with a pillow.
Initiating an epsilon big stimulus, and seeing if there is a positive or a negative feedback (and then continue either in a positive or a negative feedback loop). This could emotionally hurt a kid who doesn’t want even epsilon big probes without asking (even though not in case of a pillow fight, probably).
Asking first.
Giving the hypercomputer to Visser Three after all, since humans apparently can’t even have a pillow fight without emotionally hurting each other in some way (Also, I’m not a consequentialist, so I wouldn’t resolve this by considering the utility lost by asking and comparing it to the utility gained by being cautious.)
Besides individual variations, where the boundaries are also depends hugely on what relationship currently exists between the parties, and on the social context of the moment.
I find the terminology confusing because asking for more "benign boundary violations" sounds like wanting strangers to do things that breach social boundaries that are not personal boundaries, yet the examples refer to friends and partners, not strangers. It doesn’t make sense to say these are examples of "benign boundary violations" for close relationships though. Boundaries for friends are different for boundaries for strangers, so such behavior wouldn’t be considered boundary violations. I think of it differently: within any relationship, there is a space that you are generally allowed to explore without first asking for explicit consent. ("Allowed to explore" meaning that mistakes are tolerated.) You still need to negotiate your boundaries within this space, but it’s done via informed guesses, non-verbal cues or slow escalation, rather than directly asking someone for their answer. When someone tries an interaction (e.g. ruffling your hair), there are two levels to look at:
Is it ok that they explored that interaction space, e.g. are you ok with them trying friendly physical touch?
Are you ok with the action e.g. are you ok with having your hair ruffled? Being too explicit when asking for someone’s consent implies that you don’t consider the action to lie within the permitted exploration space for the relationship, and therefore that you think that your relationship is more distant (like how you would preface a personal question with "Can I ask you a personal question?" for a stranger but not a friend). Daring to try something that violates social norms (e.g. ruffling someone’s hair) implies that you think you are in a close enough relationship to justify the attempt, even if turns out that the other person doesn’t like it. If it is indeed a close enough relationship, the other person can always accept the attempt while rejecting the specific action. I think a typical way of handling individuals who have needs that are violated by social norms would carving out spaces for people with different needs, like having quiet carriages on trains, or providing vegetarian options on a menu. We can also be more accepting towards people who try to carve out their own spaces. For example, if someone needs alone time to recharge and thus chooses to sit separately from the group, the group accepts this rather than complaining about anti-social behavior.
Concerning your final questions, in response to what could be done:
If we were in a future with augmented reality (as in, people wear smart glasses or something), and people had accurate self-images of their personal boundaries, then those people could make their boundaries visible in that augmented reality.
So if I wanted to depict large boundaries, I could choose to look visibly spiky, like a sea urchin; whereas if I wanted to indicate small boundaries, I could choose something very fluffy instead.
In other words, if the problem is that we all have the equivalent of invisible auras, and so people can’t tell how those look without probing them in ways that risk rejection or reproach, then one solution is to make those boundaries (and their feedback to interaction) as visible and expressive and reactive as possible. Transform them in a way that allows a Gears-level understanding of them.
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Not really a response, just something I thought of while reading this comment:
The obvious solution to people having different and unclear boundaries is to make those boundaries clearer, such as by asking for explicit consent, or by having a No-Prank List mentioned in johnswentworth’s comment. Stating boundaries too clearly may lead to misuse though, but I suppose it does also make bad actors more obvious, because they can no longer hide behind the excuse of ignorance.
Nonetheless, even if we do somehow manage to convey most of our boundaries (e.g. via AR glasses), it would be highly unlikely that we’d be able to communicate all our boundaries all the time. Boundaries are sensitive to context and may change from moment to moment. We may not even realise where our boundaries lie until someone violates it. It would be impractical to find ways to make our boundaries clear enough that accidental boundary violations no longer happen. Worse still, if we managed to clearly communicate the simpler boundaries (where the consequence of violating boundaries are often lesser) but not the more complex boundaries (where consequences tend to be more severe), how would we get to practice negotiating ambiguous boundaries? There won’t be any simple cases to safely experiment and learn from!
Thus, the more practical solution would be to improve people’s abilities to negotiate ambiguous boundaries, such as the skills mentioned in Linda Linsefors’ comment, or learning how to say no. Or say, learning to pay attention to your personal boundaries instead of just social boundaries. (e.g. if someone touches me in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable, I move away instead of staying still just because there’s no social rule saying that it’s wrong) Another useful skill would be finding ways to limit the consequences of having your boundaries violated (or finding ways to meet your needs without violating other people’s boundaries). For example, informing your hosts beforehand that you are allergic to peanuts, or bringing earplugs to noisy places if you’re sensitive to sounds.
I’d thought that how the No-Prank List and "welcomes hugs" stickers worked was by making boundaries clearer so people know what they’re allowed to do and what they cannot do, but now it seems like their value lies more in how they limit the downsides of being wrong. Because you now know who doesn’t want to be pranked, or who doesn’t want unsolicited feedback, you can safely take action without fearing unacceptably negative consequences. Maybe someone likes being pranked in some ways but not others, and I use a prank they don’t really enjoy. However, since they did not add their names to the list, it suggests that they think they will be okay with most pranks (even if they may not like it). The list doesn’t ensure I never violate other people’s boundaries; it makes it safer for me to explore.
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Strong upvote for this comment, which contains imo very useful insight.
Person A offers Person B a specific experience (e.g. "I will do X, Y, and Z.")
Person B misunderstands Person A as offering them a good experience (e.g. "I will do X, Y, and Z [and you will like it].")
The experience turns out to be unenjoyable
Person B feels betrayed or lied-to by Person A, and (understandably) reacts with anger or other strong negative emotion
Person A feels wrongly accused by Person B, and (understandably) reacts with confusion and hurt and possibly goes on the counterattack themselves … all of which is circumvented if people can get on the level of "Okay, I’m going to try this experience because I expect it to be good, and also I expect I’ve got the resources to handle my own reactions if I’m wrong about that, and also I expect I’ve got the external support to handle things if I’m wrong about that. But either way, it won’t be anybody else’s ‘fault’."
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I am uncertain what the purpose of this comment is. (I mean that genuinely, not as like some snide comment. I started reading with the intent to engage and respond, and was unable to figure out what kind of engagement or response was wanted, or even if any was wanted.) If there’s a prompt for me or others, I missed it, and would appreciate a restatement of it. =)
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(Prompt:) The important part would be:
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(Thanks)
There’s been a bid elsewhere for "boundaries" to refer exclusively to the individually-specified thing, and "norms" to be used to indicate the social boundary. This … tracks, and seems good, although it leaves out that people e.g. say "Boundaries, Phil, geez!" in reinforcement of social ones, and that the word "norms" refers to many things besides boundaries.But I don’t object to using those as the terms if enough other people think they make sense.
No disagreement that some things (many, even) require opting in or advance notice.
I think they largely are one-thing-only within a subculture (where e.g. "LW" would count as a subculture, and "LWers who live in California when they meet in person" would count as a somewhat different one). I think there is approximately always, for any given collection of humans in any given time and place, a surprisingly-consistent-across-people sense of what the norms are.
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hard to do with a party.
Very dependent on stuff like where you are (versus talking about an abstract topic on LW). (Like, is the weather good enough that, your friends don’t tell you where the party will be, and the day of, they surprise you by*...going to the beach. Or some other place that’s fun for a group, and it’s a surprise.) *associated details might include, your eyes are covered or closed until you get there etc. This is a narrower topic than ‘how to handle/negotiate fitting the personal bounds rather than the other one, which is being treated in this post as serving a different purpose’, so I didn’t focus on it more.
Some additional points from the perspective of the benign violator (the other side of the happy interaction coin). I really enjoy being the benign violator with everyone, and am generalizing on my own experience:
Functionally, it’s relationship-deepening for the reasons mentioned for the benign-violated perspective (trust, demo of personal knowledge, joy in making a friend happy by creating a positive, more memorable experience). I like deep, intimate relationships with people I choose to spend time with.
Signals symmetry—I’d enjoy being pushed in the pool too!
With new people: Nice way to build up rapport and establish mutual happiness-causing patterns from the get go (in my experience, most people like slightly risky social boundary violation and I like almost all my relationship types to be fun-loving). Goes wrong sometimes, but it’s usually easy to adjust or even filter out people whose boundaries aren’t conducive to my own joy.
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Yeah. Which sucks, as an equilibrium, which is why I’m fond of groups that can leap to a better one that’s at least as stable.
I zoned out halfway through your attempt to justify benign boundary violations, because the defense feels like such implicature. The first section of your post built a mental model for me in which I heard you saying "I would like reassurance that I belong to a group which sets and follows social norms distinct from those of society at large", to which I reply, "well duh".
I was recently introduced to the concept of geek social fallacies, and the "no valid and wholesome social group can have norms other than those of the wider society" thing that you seem so (justifiably, imo, unfortunately) worried about getting slapped with for writing this feels like it rhymes closely with those.
Thank you for discussing a thing online which can often be socially dangerous to discuss. I think you did it well.
I’ve definitely been thinking about something like this for a while recently. My thoughts were about the limits of consent as an reigning societal principle. For example, in American culture you shouldn’t touch someone without their consent. But if you need to get their attention, it’s generally considered acceptable to politely tap their shoulder once or twice so that they turn around. Or if you’re stuck in a crowded elevator or train, it’s understood as unavoidable that you might slip and accidentally bump into somebody standing next to you. The more common explanation of this is that "by being out in public, you implicitly consent to these types of touch," but "implicit consent" is kind of… oogy to me. This maybe gets a little closer to what I’m getting towards: that we a society carve these exceptions out of consent so that human interaction still works smoothly. (I’m thinking also about exceptions to these exceptions. For example, there’s infamous stories about people pulling earbuds out of someone’s head to get their attention, or molesters using a crowded train as a smokescreen to hide their inappropriate actions. Obviously these are people abusing the exceptions afforded them, and we as a society denounce these actions as going too far.)
The broader social ecosystem is more important but also more difficult to grapple with, so let’s start small. Would you like me to do things that are definitely boundary violations but that I expect to be benign[1]? You teased at an answer to that question, but I don’t think you gave anything definitive. You said that your culture should have medium-sized responses to transgressions that end up not being benign, and so ought to incentivize what a potential actor believes to be a benign boundary violation, but you didn’t quite go the distance and say that you want people in your life attempting what they believe to be benign boundary violations. It sounds like from your bachelor party request that you’d like that from people close to you, but what about acquaintances?
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I absolutely personally want people to violate the social boundaries at me, in places where they genuinely expect that the social boundary is way overcompensating for me personally and that the [action] they’re considering will not violate my personal boundaries. I want people in my life, acquaintances included, to try to play in the actual space I have available, not (via their good intentions) make me feel like I’m isolated from them and everything by a ten-foot bubble. My generic social contract is "I will adhere to a policy of forgiving well-intentioned first-offense missteps where people genuinely couldn’t have known, in order to purchase your willingness to Try Things. In places where I can’t afford to absorb first-offense missteps, I’ll consider it my own responsibility to proactively inform, the same way I would if I had a lethal peanut allergy. Your primary responsibility in turn is to listen, and update, if I clarify a boundary." More broadly, on the social level, "I will defend others in what I perceive to have been well-intentioned first-offense missteps where they genuinely couldn’t have known, from attacks which tend to take those missteps in bad faith and chill/deter people from Trying Things At All."
It seems to me like a big part of the picture here is legibility. Social and private boundaries are a highly illegible domain, and that state of affairs is in conflict with the desires of a society which is increasingly risk-averse. To stick with the language of this particular analogy, a successful benign violation for you is one that shows metis over the domain of "living with Duncan". On the flip side, the illegibility makes it harder for you to distinguish between malicious probing for weakness and innocent misjudgment, and for the other party to distinguish between "Duncan will be fine" and "Duncan will be a bit annoyed" and "Duncan will distrust or dislike me". Unfortunately I think that means my takeaway is that this is a lesson that basically lives within each individual’s personal sphere and doesn’t generalize well. You can master the art of living with your own loved ones but probably not master living with everyone. You can say "the world will be better if we all get better at navigating this illegible territory," and you’re right, but the how and when is left as an exercise for the reader.
If it is not "ask"- and "tell"-culture differences I am wondering where the other style of getting that good of "being known" is. The pattern would be that you don’t push people into pools if you don’t know them and push only those people who you know that like it into pools. In order to get those "push priviledges" you talk about all kinds of generalities with people. So when you talk with a person and learn that they like it that gives a sense of closeness if it is disclosed in the spirit that it can and shall be applied. This model has costs in that you might talk about hypothetical stuff that never gets applied which in effect means emotional vulnerablity with no "payoff". And I suspect the delineation is more like this style doesn’t think that pushing is the way to get push priviledges. And the "benign violation style" thinks that talking about pushing is not the way to get pushing priviledges. In that there is a probably a counterpart for "benign inquiry" where you put another in a position where they can do nothing but reveal or define themselfs. Certain styles might find this not desirable, if you can do lazy evaluation on what you want there might be a handy position rather than being precommited to be a certain kind of person. Or maybe the difference is that if you live throught a decision you can just react and discover what you do which is relatively effortless but thinking about it before hand is a kind of work and requires self-knowledge? I am also a bit confused in that when a person pushes another into pool betting it is the move to make, then its a blend of knowing and guessing. To the extent it is knowledge I get how its expressing care to the person. But to the extent its knowledgelessness the same logic doesn’t apply. If it is a method of generating that knowledge, its merely expressing wanting that information rather than demonstrating of posessing it. And from a certain perspective it could be understood that they want to participate without knowing and that can be a form of distaste of knowing. But I guess being desired is a similar even if separate psychological good?
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I think that guess/ask/tell culture differences are definitely tangled up in this somewhere, but I don’t know if that’s the full explanation.
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I could imagine that one of the ways for the fallout not to be disastrously traumatic is if one accepts whatever "judgement" is to come ie guanteed pleadingly quilty with no/little resistance. Say that pushing people into pool unhappily means you get side-eyed for 30 minutes. If one knows the fallout beforehand there is no chance of an undefinite downward spiral. The way that a traumatic fallout occurs if the people disagree on how to proceed (ie no punishment vs punishment). I am kind of linking this in my mind to the "try catch" programming pattern. Some might have a style preference that correctly working code should not deal with errors too much (ie representing "not found" as "return −1" or "raise NoSuchElementException"). I tried to search for previous usage of that that and indeed The Magnitude of His Own Folly is structured as a story about how a exception that was caught in a bad way was made uncaught and allowed to escalate. Curious that also explictly deals with trust. In a problematic situation a party might have no choice but to trust. In a hostile work environment you can have the choice of working or not working. Deducing from peope choosing work (and thus "implicit trust") that there is a good environment is not the most reliable of logics. Assholes can be "recklessly clueless" and that counts against them rather than for them.
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Yeah, trusting the overall system of punishment/consequence to be at least approximately fair, and that everyone involved has enough spare resources to survive/absorb occasional small miscarriages of justice, is a crucial part of this.
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That seems like an overstatement, to me. "Primarily" or "most frighteningly" among the population vying for social status, perhaps. But I don’t think you can support "only," and I also don’t think it’s a reasonable prior.
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Why do you think it isn’t a reasonable prior?
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My actual answer is "because it starts with the word ‘only’." Statements that assert that something is only true of subset X, or true of every member of group Y, or other similar universals/absolutes, are almost never true either in literal specific or in "spirit," and so in my estimation they bear the burden of proof, and should be considered suspect until demonstrated reasonable. I have other, more complicated thoughts about why humans who are not explicitly targeting social status are nevertheless affected by and vulnerable to large changes in the status dynamic. But the above seems to be sufficient to start with.
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I can of course define ‘population vying for social status’ narrowly enough that ‘Only’ applies in every literal instance. And you can of course define it broadly it enough that it never applies even ‘in spirit’. So to go any further would seem to be splitting hairs, to be honest. Personally, I rather not spend the time to write a long explanation when there are a boundless number of potentially valid rejoinders, due to the nature of drawing lines in the sand. EDIT: Perhaps that is also an error of form, and/or style, on my part, but I also rather not turn short sentences into long paragraphs. The more interesting point is in your latter paragraph,
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Sorry, I think this is an important point, and not trivial/irrelevant splitting hairs:
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Duncan you haven’t actually refuted my point, but write as if you had in the latter paragraphs… Take for example,