Use Tools For What They’re For

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for

*Maybe there isn’t and can’t be a simple heuristic you can teach everyone in school or via a PR campaign which will lead to them having making good health decisions in an adversarial information environment, without having any negative effects anywhere else. But you also don’t want people to make bad health decisions. So what do you do? *- Scott Alexander, Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted To Know The favorite catchphrase of critics of using ivermectin against COVID-19 isn’t "follow the science" or "believe the experts." They say "IVERMECTIN IS A HORSE DEWORMER!" And in response, ivermectin supporters say things like: MAGAA Puppy is factually correct in the two "Me:" statements.

Ivermectin and its related drugs act by interfering with the nerve and muscle functions of helminths and insects. The drug binds to glutamate-gated chloride channels common to invertebrate nerve and muscle cells. The binding pushes the channels open, which increases the flow of chloride ions and hyper-polarizes the cell membranes, paralyzing and killing the invertebrate. Ivermectin is safe for mammals (at the normal therapeutic doses used to cure parasite infections) because mammalian glutamate-gated chloride channels only occur in the brain and spinal cord: the causative avermectins usually do not cross the blood–brain barrier, and are unlikely to bind to other mammalian ligand-gated channels. So ivermectin is effective against worms because it binds and opens chloride channels in nerves and muscle cells. It’s safe for humans because it doesn’t have anatomical access to any of our own cells that have these channels. This mechanism of action will be completely ineffective against viruses, because viruses don’t have cells at all. They’re closer to the size of a single receptor than to the size of a cell, and they’re not even really alive. When critics emphasize the "horse" in "horse dewormer," they may be taken as implying three things, whether they mean to or not:

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The FDA not liking people using the horse version to treat illnesses that people have has nothing to do with ivermectin being ineffective for the illnesses in question. We know that because in 2019 that already was the FDA position to be concerned about it’s usage for Rosacea. The FDA just opposes US citizens to use cheaper versions to treat their diseases then the human versions that they approve.

Ivermectin, and really any drug not deliberately designed either to bolster the human immune system or to fight viruses (and more specifically COVID-19), is deeply unlikely to be directly effective against COVID-19 for the same reason your mystery seed is unlikely to be a daikon radish. This ignores the apriori reasons to believe that Ivermectin is a good candidate as a treatment. From a paper in The Journal of Antibioticsfrom 2017: Ivermectin has also been demonstrated to be a potent broad-spectrum specific inhibitor of importin α/​β-mediated nuclear transport and demonstrates antiviral activity against several RNA viruses by blocking the nuclear trafficking of viral proteins. It has been shown to have potent antiviral action against HIV-1 and dengue viruses, both of which are dependent on the importin protein superfamily for several key cellular processes. Ivermectin may be of import in disrupting HIV-1 integrase in HIV-1 as well as NS-5 (non-structural protein 5) polymerase in dengue viruses. From another paper in 2018: Ivermectin has long been clinically administered for the treatment of parasitosis (63), but has recently come to attention as a potential inhibitor of IMPα/​β (64). Ivermectin inhibition of IMPα/​β has shown to inhibit the replication of RNA viruses such as dengue virus and HIV-1 (64). Ivermectin was recently tested for the inhibition of IAV in vitro, with nuclear import of vRNP complex (of both wild-type and antiviral MxA escape mutant) efficiently inhibited (65). Given ivermectin’s longstanding record of clinical applications and FDA-approved status, repurposing of this drug for the treatment of IAV should be considered, especially while under threat of pandemic IAV outbreak. When COVID-19 came around and we started discussing what could be done on LessWrong, in April 2020 there were positions like: What kind of treatments and vaccines might we expect? Derek Lowe outlines "The Order of the Battle" where first we try repurposing existing drugs (e.g., remdesivir, hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, falapirivir, ivermectin), then monoclonal antibodies, then vaccines, and then potentially new treatments. It’s possible existing drugs or new treatments could greatly reduce the danger of COVID and allow for faster reopening, but it would take a vaccine to truly make it go away. That was the position because we knew that ivermectin does more then just deworming. If we had a pro-Science administration in any Western country the reaction to COVID-19 would have been by that point to immediately fund powered trails for those candidates. Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen but other people did fund the trials and as of June quality meta reviews of the available trial suggested it works. The problem is that the trials are mostly not run in Western countries and thus not as trustworthy then those that would have been run if the CDC would be pro-Science at the beginning of the pandemic. The favorite catchphrase of critics of using ivermectin against COVID-19 don’t say "follow the science" or "believe the experts." The reason to not take ivermectin is essentially "don’t follow the science, because some of it is fraudulent" at this point in time. Back in the highest quality meta analysis were pro-ivermectin. Note that this heuristic also often allows us to come to the right conclusion when the experts are right and when they’re wrong, without putting much thought into it. The heuristics likely gets you to results such as not using various drugs such as SSRI’s when depressed because those hit a bunch of different targets and produce complex interactions which we don’t fully understand. Not taking drugs where there’s good evidence that they work but where the workings are complex enough that we don’t fully understand them gets you to a wrong conclusion many times.

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https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=54wgtw6KcCsMATmge

With any heuristic, it’s going to have failure modes and will only get you so far. This is meant as a common-sense guideline for lay people, not as an intellectual stopping point for scientists, regulators, and clinicians.

Here, I’m aiming at people who are ivermectin partisans, both critics and supporters. Those who’d reject other treatments in favor of ivermectin, and those who think ivermectin has no possible relevance to COVID-19 and yet yet don’t seem to be thinking even at a baseline level of wisdom in their criticism.

This post is a tool, and I advocate using it only for what it’s for!

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=ABfQn2s6fr3SLfaDH

I find it misleading to call drugs tools. It is not uncommon to find unexpected uses for drugs. Here is an example I just saw in a documentary last week: Avastin, a treatment for certain types of cancer, was found out to cure AMD very cost-efficiently. Novartis was so miffed that they successfully lobbied for forbidding using Avastin in AMD cases, then they repackaged it into Lucentis and now they sell it at 40 times Avastin’s price. It’s the same product, but doctors are forbidden to use the cancer treatment to cure people’s eyes. (Correction: Novartis and Roche **tried **to have the use of Avastin in AMD cases outlawed in France, but failed. Still, doctors are discouraged from doing that by the complexity of administrative procedures, and presently the overwhelming majority of case are treated with Lucentis.)

Likewise, Pfizer and Merck and all the rest of these big pharmaceutical companies designed their vaccines and drugs to fight COVID-19, and gathered lots of flagship-quality evidence to bolster their claimed success. Nobody with serious standing challenges these claims. If they are so confident that their vaccines are stellar successes, why did they specify in their contracts with European governments that they could not be held liable for side effects?

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https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=cZEvWmGeCcKbx6PK6

Novartis was so miffed that they successfully lobbied for forbidding using Avastin in AMD cases Can you be more specific to what you are referring to? What specific regulatory are you calling "forbidding using Avastin in AMD cases". What forbids off-label use here?

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My bad, I rewatched the documentary and it’s actually less clear. The two swiss labs Novartis and Roche, who respectively commercialize Lucentis and Avastin in Europe (undistinguishable treatments both created by Genetech, an American lab bought back by Roche—also, Novartis owns 33.33% of Roche), tried a legal action against France. I assume it was to outlaw the use of Avastin in the eyes. But it eventually failed. However, in the meantime, the habit had taken root to use Lucentis to cure AMD. It’s not explained exactly why. The interviewed person says "the difficulty nowadays for the healthcare system, is that they set up a system that is so complex for eye doctors to manage that in the end, everyone gave up." I interpret that as "it’s possible, but there’s so much red tape that it’s impractical". I will correct my original comment.

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The two swiss labs Novartis and Roche, who respectively commercialize Lucentis and Avastin in Europe (undistinguishable treatments both created by Genetech, an American lab bought back by Roche—also, Novartis owns 33.33% of Roche), tried a legal action against France. I assume it was to outlaw the use of Avastin in the eyes. That seems unlikely to me. Our health system doesn’t work in a way that there’s a normal process for outlawing drugs for being used for certain purposes. Let’s start with, Lucentis and Avastin are similar but the are not undistinguishable. They are both monoclononal antibodies against the same target but not the same. That’s why you have for example two different English Wikipedia pages for them which you don’t have for drugs were the same substance gets marketed under different brand names. https://​​go.drugbank.com/​​drugs/​​DB01270 and https://​​go.drugbank.com/​​drugs/​​DB00112 give you the sequences of the antibodies and even without comparing every letter you see that the molecular weight of one is a third of the other. When repacking a drug that intravenously into one that’s optimized for intravitreal delievery it’s plausible that some optimization can be made. Wikipedia suggests that there’s review that even suggests low certainty evidence that there are clinically relevant differences. While those difference might be just the result of p-hacking it’s plausible that they are real. Even the French Wikipedia doesn’t go into detail but a more likely scenario is that someone in the French health service thought that covering Lucentis with public health insurance is a waste of money when Avastin exists that costs 1⁄40 as much and that they ran a lawsuit to get French public health insurance to cover Lucentis. If money wouldn’t be any concern, then the act of repackaging drugs to be better for a given clinical application makes a lot of sense. The key issue is how much profit a company deserves for doing that and the amount feels excessive for the service that’s provided.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=obnnx6Lrjq8pD7bDC

If they are so confident that their vaccines are stellar successes, why did they specify in their contracts with European governments that they could not be held liable for side effects? Courts of law can make companies liable for "side effects" whether or not there’s scientific evidence that the "side effects" are caused by the drugs. If you for example look at LYMErix it’s not clear that the side effects were really that severe but they were still enough to get the vaccine withdrawn.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=ZEcphQLSJpzwE4zD5

If they are so confident that their vaccines are stellar successes, why did they specify in their contracts with European governments that they could not be held liable for side effects? I mean, that’s just good practice. No one can be 100% sure of anything, and you always want to take as little liability as possible...particularly when the costs of taking less liability are low.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=coLhn6LwzFdNvAQsi

Scotty: How many times do I have to tell you? The right tool for the right job!-- https://​​getyarn.io/​​yarn-clip/​​ff8609de-278d-48bf-8c0e-036749f825de

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=za2WrebLkLxp8ey7W

Haha, I’m seeing a lot of people noticing confusion between the prevailing opinions of the society they live in (Ivermectin is a HORSE DEWORMER and DOESN’T WORK) and their own thoughts (there’s weak evidence that it may work in some cases, perhaps we shouldn’t treat it with such vitriol). This post is a good attempt to reconcile the two.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=rZWJGuPsWedjE2LJy

As we know, the reason they emphasize the "horse" in "horse dewormer" is that some people may have been taking horse-size doses of ivermectin and dying from it.

I thought the people saying "horse dewormer" were emphasising it because "Haw! Haw! HORSE DEWORMER!!! Lookit the stoopid Rethuglicans using HORSE DEWORMER!!! HORSE DEWORMER!!! HORSE DEWORMER!!! Haw! Haw! Haw! HORSE DEWORMER!!! Haw! Haw! Stoopids going to the ER cos they took HORSE DEWORMER!!! Serves them right I hope they die die die HORSE DEWORMER!!!"

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https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=krQ9snvyQEECATbdP

For example.

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No, not really, Richard, but at least you tried. If you tried harder, you might notice that my contempt did not actually bring with it any malice or schadenfreude, or even any mention of ‘horse dewormer’, which seems to be the entirety of your take. So… yeah, very well done there.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ds2Rwg3tcCFAtgfTj/use-tools-for-what-they-re-for?commentId=d3TSZSbgiAEvKvPpx

Let’s face it—anything promoted by reactionary-moron-targeting snake-oil grifters, especially those with ‘MAGA’ in their names, can basically be written off immediately with little loss of value.