Relativized Definitions as a Method to Sidestep the Löbian Obstacle

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/L9zm5oGvDK8xwsGNf/relativized-definitions-as-a-method-to-sidestep-the-loebian

The goal of this post is to outline a loophole of sorts in Gödel’s Second Incompleteness (GSI) theorem (and of Löb’s theorem by corollary) and give a somewhat sketchy description for how it might be exploited. I’ll begin by describing the loophole. Essentially, it’s merely the observation that Second Incompleteness is a syntactic property rather than a semantic one. Assume that \text{Bew} is a provability predicate which is subject to GSI. GSI does not prohibit the existence of a predicate \text{Bew}2 not subject to GSI such that [[\text{Bew}]] = [[\text{Bew}2]], where [[P]] is the set corresponding to the predicate P in the standard semantics. That is to say, it’s possible for two predicates to be the same, semantically, while one is subject to GSI and the other is not. Explicitly constructing an example is not hard, take the following definition for example; \text{Bew}2(X) := \text{Bew}(X) ∧ X ≠ Meta-theoretically, we know that ⊥ is not provable, and so can prove in some ambient theory that \text{Bew}2 and \text{Bew} are, really, the same predicate. Internal to PA, or some similar system, however, GSI holds for \text{Bew} but fails rather trivially for \text{Bew}2. \text{Bew}2 is called a relativized definition, of \text{Bew}. This demonstrates the loophole, but this particular "exploitation" of it is obviously not very satisfying. Ideally we’d not have to rely on meta-theoretic reasoning to justify the alternative definition. Of course, there are limitations to what we can do. If GSI holds for one definition and not the other then we cannot prove a material equivalence between the two without causing an inconsistency. Instead, we need a weaker notion of internal equivalence. Specifically, we can use the following conditions;

  1. is trivial. 2. relies on the definition of addition used in Robinson’s Q;

Comment

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/L9zm5oGvDK8xwsGNf/relativized-definitions-as-a-method-to-sidestep-the-loebian?commentId=jQy4XYZCTqksAC3tq

Stepping back, what’s the ultimate point of all this? Traditional wisdom states that GSI and Löb’s theorem puts fundamental limitations on various formal logics preventing them from reasoning about themselves in a useful way. I no longer believe this to be the case. We can, with some cleverness, get these systems to do just that. Taking the outside view (the traditional wisdom), I’d expect it more likely there’s some mistake here I’m not adept enough to identify or that it doesn’t actually grant you as much as you think it does. So I guess the question would be what the case is that others missed this and that you’ve discovered something novel? (Note: asking this question in the spirit of starting a conversation. I didn’t have time to follow the math closely enough and I’ve been out of this sort of math for long enough that I don’t have a very informed opinion of what’s going on here, so this is mostly about poking to see what you think about this makes it different and exciting and likely to be useful.)

Comment

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/L9zm5oGvDK8xwsGNf/relativized-definitions-as-a-method-to-sidestep-the-loebian?commentId=47pDHBLMLY8byQNga

I do worry that there’s some technical subtlety not obvious until the end game that makes this particular construction impossible. I’ve been trying to spot some places where something might go wrong, and there are a few parts I don’t know how to fill in. I think there might be a problem relativizing a proof of the totality of ordinal multiplication which may prevent either the proof predicate relativization or the transfinite induction derivation from working. Or there may be some more subtle reason the steps I outlined won’t work. I was hoping that someone in the community might be able to say "I’ve seen this before, and it didn’t work because of XYZ", but that hasn’t happened yet, which means I’ll probably have to attempt to formalize the whole argument to get a definitive answer, which I’m not confident is worth the effort. Regardless, I don’t think my idea relies on this specific construct. The example from the beginning of the post that I find unsatisfying already sidesteps lob’s theorem, and just because I’m unsatisfied with it doesn’t mean it, or something equally as simple, isn’t useful to someone. Even if there’s a mistake here, I think the broad idea has legs.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/L9zm5oGvDK8xwsGNf/relativized-definitions-as-a-method-to-sidestep-the-loebian?commentId=RekhJrWPzDNisM56c

The end of this post got too advanced for me to quickly understand. But near the beginning you say:

  1. and 2. are special cases of our previous conditions for internally verifying the semantic equivalence between two predicates; so we’ve essentially just demonstrated that \mathbb{N} and \mathbb{N}_a are, really, the same predicate. Which seems just false; that requires induction, which Robinson’s Q doesn’t have.

Comment

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/L9zm5oGvDK8xwsGNf/relativized-definitions-as-a-method-to-sidestep-the-loebian?commentId=hEQoFtNY2rJag3Ksm

I think you’ve misunderstood what I was saying. I am not claiming that we can prove a material equivalence, an internal formal equivalence, between N and Na; that would require induction. The only things which that statement claimed were being formally proved within Q were 1. and 2. Neither of those statements require induction. 1. allows us to treat Na as, at most, N. 2. allows us to treat Na as, at least, N. Both together allow us to treat Na as N (within limits). Only 1. and 2. are internal, there are no other formal statements. That 1. and 2. are sufficient for demonstrating that N and Na are semantically the same is a metatheoretic observation which I think is intuitively obvious. The point is that we can see, through internal theorems, that N and Na are the same, not with a material equivalence, but with some weaker conditions. This justifies treating Na as an alternative definition of N, one which we can use to formally prove more than we could with N. This is a different perspective than is usually taken with formal mathematics where there’s often considered only one definition, but incompleteness opens the possibility for formally distinct, semantically equivalent definitions. I think that’s exploitable but historically hasn’t been exploited much.