The Basic Object Model and Definition by Interface

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ndqm6dm8hdEtMAvWh/the-basic-object-model-and-definition-by-interface

What does it mean to say that something "exists"? Why do we say that both objects in the world, such as chairs, and logical entities, such as the number 9, both exist? I believe that the key insight is that both "things" can be adapted to what I call the Basic Object Model. Further, by using this specific example, I can demonstrate what I call Definition by Interface. This post responds to Philosopher Corner: Numbers. Update: After further consideration, I have come to the conclusion that this is only part of the story. Fitting the object modle is a key part of "existence", but we also need to have a divide between "existence" and "non-existence" to fully explain why we are tempted to use the same term for both kinds of "objects". I hope to develop this in a future post. The Basic Object Model Informally: any "collection" of "things" is adapted to the object model if we can say the following:

Comment

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ndqm6dm8hdEtMAvWh/the-basic-object-model-and-definition-by-interface?commentId=4kBSwjqgoFqddkREn

An argument that you can’t easily write in first order logic without resorting to subtle tricks:

  1. Dracula is a vampire.
  2. Vampires do not exist.
  3. Therefore, Dracula does not exist. A full explanation of "exists" should be able to account for this argument...

Comment

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ndqm6dm8hdEtMAvWh/the-basic-object-model-and-definition-by-interface?commentId=eypbJRQpbxTrnZ4GM

I think I actually manage to cover this in my part two post. Being able to evaluate arguments about things is about fitting them into your collection of mental objects with associations. We can absoloutely do this with both numbers and Dracula. But you can have mental objects in your collection that you don’t think have a corresponding object in the territory—strict existence involves extra properties that more or less boil down to having the object in a causal model of the world that’s connected to you. Hm, that seems like kind of an important point. I may have overindulged my desire to lay out all the necessary pieces for people but not put them all together.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ndqm6dm8hdEtMAvWh/the-basic-object-model-and-definition-by-interface?commentId=DLPxXvB8ZX2ro9Xxa

Perhaps because I’ve already arrived at it independently, this felt lacking. But I agree with what you’ve said. In my ontology, I have some expansions that I would soon post. As for "exists", I find it useful to distinguish between "is manifest in some model" and "is manifest in the territory"—you have not made that distinction. My answer to what it means to "exist".

Comment

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ndqm6dm8hdEtMAvWh/the-basic-object-model-and-definition-by-interface?commentId=aLAE7eovyvTHeHYoB

"Perhaps because I’ve already arrived at it independently, this felt lacking"—you’ll notice that I used a lot of words to describe two very simple concepts. This is because there is a wide variation in how people will interpret any particular text, so you need to spend a lot of words stating everything as clearly as possible. Now that I’ve done this, however, I can just use either of these terms and link people to this article. I agree that there are further distinctions that can be made, but I really wanted to keep this article as simple as possible and just focus on, well not one thing, but two things that are pretty much inseperable. You wrote: "Properties of an object are relations between the object and another object**". **I’m not so sure about this. What if the property is "number of atoms"? What is the second object then? Further, could you illustrate, "A composition of relations is a relation" with an example?

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You don’t have to regard evey predicate as a property.

A property of an object is a relation: The relation is between the object and another object "atoms". (Number of X that compose Y). A composition of relations is a relation. Paris is in France. France is in Europe. Paris is in Europe. Paris is the capital of France. France is on Earth. Paris is the capital of a country on Earth.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ndqm6dm8hdEtMAvWh/the-basic-object-model-and-definition-by-interface?commentId=CqTxKf2Rsfha4imxP

Actually, you’re right that the fitting some kind of Object Interface is only part of what "exists" means. Exists splits the possible object space up into "exists" and "doesn’t exist" and I haven’t dealt with this core aspect at all.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ndqm6dm8hdEtMAvWh/the-basic-object-model-and-definition-by-interface?commentId=zLyeaiftZHWoiNbdN

Now I feel silly for only reading this after posting my own part two that repeated many of these points :) As I said in my reply to CronoDAS’s comment, I think I make a slightly different distinction: mental objects in your big collection’o’mental’objects are what you can think sentences about (and evaluate the truth of, and have arguments about, etc), but you aren’t required to think all of those things exist. I argue that it feels like numbers exist because when we learn about numbers, it feels like we’re interacting with something objective and external.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ndqm6dm8hdEtMAvWh/the-basic-object-model-and-definition-by-interface?commentId=qE4Sc9fTkYgYcSAnt

To me it sounds like you’re roughly getting at the distinction Heidegger made between ontic and ontological being, something like what we might think of as the thing-in-itself and the thing-as-phenomenological-object. Compare also noumenon vs noema.

Comment

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ndqm6dm8hdEtMAvWh/the-basic-object-model-and-definition-by-interface?commentId=YxT8w77oSzSKyMuCW

Sorry, this comment doesn’t make any sense to me at all because of all of the terminology.

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That was kind of the point—to give you handles for related ideas you didn’t seem to be aware of so you could look deeper if you are interested.

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Heidegger is the one philosopher who I refuse to read due to generally being incomprehensible, but thanks for the comment anyway!