* jonadab: renames the journal file...
FriendlyPerson[m: jonadab: I am not sure if this would do a thing about that and simply drops the "weird" chunks but taking a backup and giving Sqlite3's .recover the "college try" might be worth something? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=396087#p396087
jonadab: I was able to open the thing in sqlite3, but in response to .recover it says unknown command.  (I'm on oldstable, so it's likely that I have an oldish version of sqlite3.)
jonadab: However, it appears that moving the journal aside lets minetestmapper work.
jonadab: Yes, that's much better.
jonadab: The map now includes a bunch of stuff that I had generated after the previous time I ran minetestmapper, before the blink.
FriendlyPerson[m: I am glad maybe the mod didn't expected it to be there since it was believing the world would be in a consistent state.
jonadab: minetestmapper isn't a mod as such.  It's a separate program from the game itself.
jonadab: It just reads the world database directly and generates a map.
FriendlyPerson[m: Ah got ya, sorry for my own confusion then. :(
Teckla: 9
rocky_fuchsian_f: Aha who wanna be my Minetest bf and put our beds next to each other?
rocky_fuchsian_f: (Sorta on topic lol)
oneplustwo: lmao
oneplustwo: minetest really is copying the minecraft experience
GNUHacker: a cute mod: https://content.minetest.net/packages/Psyco/uwu/
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Desour -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix GUIEditBoxWithScrollBar using a smaller steps than intlGUIEditBox… 131ab29f1 https://git.io/JRBzu (152021-08-08T16:59:45Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Pevernow -> 03minetest/minetest: Gettext support on Android (#11435) 13c6eddb0 https://git.io/JRBzg (152021-08-08T16:59:07Z)
jonadab: Ok, so I thought I had worked around the problem caused by the power blink, by moving the map.sqlite-journal file aside.  This did allow minetestmapper to run, and it picked up everything that had changed since previous mapping up to the power blink.  But now it is NOT picking up anything that has happened since the power blink.  I can break and place blocks, but no changes, including exploration, have
jonadab: any effect on what minetestmapper sees.
jonadab: @oneplustwo:  Yeah, that's why the first five minutes of every Minetest game is when you mine down 12-15 blocks below the surface to collect all the diamonds you will ever need, and then after that your entire progression consists of building more and larger and more powerful monster-killing facilities.  That's totally the experience we're going for in Minetest now.
FriendlyPerson[m: <jonadab> "@oneplustwo:  Yeah, that's why..." <- And wondering why half the stuffs break so you get frustrated and give up on your "master facilities plans".
jonadab: Eh, being confused about why stuff is broken can happen just as much with pipeworks, as with redstone.
jonadab: The details are different, but anytime you're designing technical stuff, you're gonna get confused about why it's not doing what you want.
jonadab: The difference, really, is that Minetest is about mining, to a much greater extent.  I mean, even if you're using a ton of technic and whatnot, you still mine.  Maybe you use HV quarries, or digtrons, to do it, but you still mine.
jonadab: The other voxel-based game is much more about exploiting monsters.
jonadab: Which, incidentally, is one reason I'm opposed to MT mods that add monsters with meaningful death drops.
jonadab: That's Not How We Do Things.
jonadab: Though I'll tell you what I *am* thinking about.  I'm thinking about leech-mining, wherein flowing water that flows past stone builds up a "leeched minerals content" quantity, that increases with every stone block it flows past, and can then be exploited using some kind of filter or sieve, to obtain small amounts (perhaps "grains") of minerals.  Then you toss 99 grains of something into a furnace, and
jonadab: you get an ingot.
specing: cool idea
jonadab: Obviously, this shouldn't produce things like diamonds or mese.  Probably only metals.  Copper would be the thing you'd mainly want out of it, tbh.
specing: jonadab: you can use teckpack's gravelsieve
jonadab: Hmm, I could maybe base some of the code on that.
FriendlyPerson[m: <jonadab> "Eh, being confused about why..." <- This is not true at least with my limited testing and with a dedicated player. We can't for the love of humanely figure out a mean to get stuffs out of a HV machines with the default control logic upgrade(s). Even if I installs two (the max these puppies will take) they will not empty themsleves fast enough. That's one of the pain points of Technic/Pipeworks.
jonadab: If I decide to implement the thing.
specing: I wonder if there's a server with mineral trees
jonadab: FriendlyPerson[m: Stackwise injectors.
jonadab: specing: Does it count if they're underground?
specing: I guess? What's the difference?
jonadab: Because caverealms is on numerous servers.
specing: Oh
specing: I meant something else
specing: jonadab: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=12596
FriendlyPerson[m: jonadab: Aren't those for inputs not outputs?
specing: jonadab: it's kinda like your idea
specing: jonadab: just using trees instead of water
jonadab: Ah.
jonadab: FriendlyPerson[m: Injectors pull things out of whatever's on the "left" side of them.
jonadab: Chest, technic output, whatever.
specing: serverlist says that there is no server with mineral trees
jonadab: The reason I was thinking of the leech-mining thing, is because I was trying to come up with a reasonable MT-based Skyblock-like setup, with a progression that doesn't use mining at all.  Which is much harder to do for MT than for MC, because MT is way more mining-oriented.
specing: I think it would be cool to have them. Have them take a whole IRL month to grow or something. That is if you water them regularly :P
jonadab: But I figured with a cobble generator and trees for charcoal, you could make stone...
specing: jonadab: that's how gravelsieve works. cobblegen -> grinder -> sieve
specing: Why do you need charcoal, though?
Pexin: FriendlyPerson[m: linuxforks has a custom technic which includes, among other things, a stackwise control logic unit
jonadab: specing: charcoal to power the furnaces to smelt cobble into stone.
jonadab: Oh, yes, the "Advanced Control Logic Unit".
jonadab: Useful for when you're trying to cram into a small space.  But honestly, 99% of the time, just use an injector.
Pexin: injectors, incidentally, should REALLY be named "ejectors"
Pexin: but, whatya do
jonadab: A lot of things are misnamed.
jonadab: The table saw is called a "circular saw", because whoever made it just didn't know the difference.
Pexin: https://github.com/h-v-smacker/technic  if interested
jonadab: Note that a lot of the li-fo mods go out of their way to get rid of one of the really common basic mods that a ton of things depend on (might've been basic_materials, or something like that).
jonadab: Not sure if that is relevant for their Technic fork.
jonadab: Personally, the ones I want to get rid of are homedecor and unified_dyes.
specing: Pexin: they inject into pneumatic tube system, hence injectors
Pexin: |:(
jonadab: Man, this is weird.  I can place blocks, _stop the server_, start the server back up, connect again, and the blocks I placed are there.  But minetestmapper is still getting exactly what it was getting before the power blink the other day.
FriendlyPerson[m: Also this laughs my socks off! A mod ACTUALLY took the Sammy Rating System seriously enough to put it in their mod. 🤦‍♂️
* FriendlyPerson[m: uploaded an image: (203KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/CUoCkRCeqDtVttxfMlwnmyKT/Screenshot%20from%202021-08-08%2014-33-00.png >
Xanabella: Virus Scanner scan "potentialy dangerous" ... with Minetest you can do "much". Check the Mod, its OpenSouce and report it to your Virus Scanner to add the Mod on WhiteList
FriendlyPerson[m: <jonadab> "FriendlyPerson: Injectors pull..." <- Couldn't get this to work. It's left to pull then push out any other sides but the front right?
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FriendlyPerson[m: That was my setup, pushing the button did nothing even though the device was "enabled".
Xanabella: Place the Furnace, on Side the Injector(look Arrow look away from it) then tube on the other Side and end in Chest ... and Push the Injector from Hand to test (without Mesecon and Button)
Xanabella: you dont even need Tube ... Furnace, Injector, Chest ... and maybe look YouTube Vids
Xanabella: and if you use internacl Control Logic, it come Right out ... Chest(Tube)<---Furnace
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: The exact issue is that. Even if we install two circuits it's still doesn't empties in time so we are left spamming HV machines in case one of them falls behind.
FriendlyPerson[m: Every machine mod that were in Minecraft that intended full automation always either eject themselves properly or have relevant upgrades to keep up the speed internally.
Pexin: wait what
FriendlyPerson[m: Point being it's frustrating to get Technic to scale properly.
Xanabella: It has Stack Injector that do it. i use mese_plus with adjustable_blink_plant 0.5s ... and you can Search (you dead) to found in Technic were was the 4s Tact to change the Mod himself
Pexin: self contained injector only pops items out the bottom, and does so continuously
FriendlyPerson[m: Pexin: Well that was not mentioned in the Pipeworks wiki at all. That is why we are getting frustrated over here.
Pexin: self contained injector screwed me up royal at first haha
FriendlyPerson[m: Sure does, same goes for Technic too. Because if they added higher teir machines then they should have relevant internal upgrades.
Xanabella: MineTest was OpenSource and Free to Help to Improve it ... Nobody say its Perfect, everybody has ideas and even if i change me own "technic mod", only the owner can change ContentDB
Xanabella: For Furnace was the easy way "Chest, Hopper, Normal Furnance, Hopper, Chest" and fill be hand (injector to recolect if more the one "Collum")
Xanabella: Hopper, Furnace, Hopper and on side Hopper(with bio_fuel on top) me Favorite
FriendlyPerson[m: <Xanabella> "MineTest was OpenSource and Free..." <- There's a difference between perfection and consistency however.
Xanabella: Feel you free to help to improve it and make it better ... all tubework was 4s, and Injector->Ejector only 1 Char to change
jonadab: FriendlyPerson[m: The texture of the injectors looks like arrows, pointing from the side they pull from, to the side they eject to.
jonadab: If you use stackwise injectors, it doesn't matter if the injector temporarily gets behind, it'll catch up by taking the whole stack.
FriendlyPerson[m: jonadab: It just looks like a closed form of chest. At least from the front of the device.
jonadab: Chest?  Oh, are you attempting to use the self-contained injector?  I've never used those.  Only the itemwise (blue arrows), stackwise (yellow arrows), or digiline (light blue arrows).
jonadab: And you can activate them by just slapping a blinky plant next to them.
jonadab: Except the digiline one.  For that you need to send digiline signals, obviously.
jonadab: I have less experience with it, but enough to know that it's very powerful.
jonadab: There's one piece of equipment where the stackwise injectors can get behind and let the device fill up, and that's the MV thresher, especially if you use it on grass, which has three outputs.  The device has only four slots, and the injector will keep taking from slot 1 even though that's the least-full stack, and then one of the other stacks will overflow into slot 4...
specing: Never heard of such a machine
Pexin: also centrifuge
jonadab: Oh, maybe the centrifuge too, yeah.  e.g. if separating dirt to get clay.
jonadab: specing: I think it's not from Technic itself, but an add-ons mod made to go with Technic.
FriendlyPerson[m: I also not sure if the 2secs that plant does is suffice for a HV machine that rotates stocks like from quarries and such.
FriendlyPerson[m: Since stackwises only does one output at a time. Regardless if it actually a full stack or not.
Xanabella: Maybe: 10 Furnance on line with ControlLogic, 1tube left to reCollect all in one Chest. top Tube to refill, down Supply
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: Ya that what we ending having to do. But the thing is that it's not just consistent game play. IDEALLY what would happen if that upgrade is installed it would spews out at the proper rate or you would have something like a MV version and HV one. Like IFT does (stackwise advanced one).
Xanabella: the you get all Peaple angry that want Technic on Server becaus the Crash of OverFlow ... Find Peaple that spend Money for Nasa-Server and Internet bill or Make Pay-Version ... in every case some Peaple get Angry
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: They're not angry they are just frustrated that they are unable to understand (or it's hard for them to be doing so) because of these inconsistencies. Even if you do, it's still not as fun with consistently reasonably being there.
Xanabella: The Peaple on Sever dont understand why the Crash and was to Slow ... and noboy understand that Pay-Game with Payed Programer with full time job do it better
Swift110-mobile: hey all
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: That is why a server should be keeping things informed for them so they can and secondary that isn't always the case. The only thing you get with "paid for" works are the contractuals and/or SLAs.  Not much else. Hence the different between a Host and you DIYing it that the Host have contracts in place while your server at home does not. Therefore the person at home might not be able to deliver similar SLAs goals.
Xanabella: and even in Pay-Game, support was full of bug ... after 10y the call it Feature. You ask for MineTest more ...
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: That is what i mean, just paying for something doesn't automatically means it's better.
Xanabella: Change your Code, show your solution and the MineTest Support and All other was grateful for Help
Xanabella: technic\machines\register\common.lua ... Line 63: technic.send_items <--- Thats te function that send to Pipe, i dont found where the call it in 4s tact and give up
Xanabella: @ FriendlyPerson[m Find where the was called or try to change it that the put out StackWise out
Xanabella: if you want 5x5 Output to stack more instead of 2x2 its easyer
Xanabella: @Friendlyperson i have problem to query you, join #Friendlyperson
FriendlyPerson[m: <Xanabella> "@Friendlyperson i have problem..." <- It's okay I can't find the room here on Element, is it possible to get an invite to it instead?
Xanabella: You must log into your NickServ account to message this user <---  /join FriendlyPerson
FriendlyPerson[m: <Xanabella> "You must log into your NickServ..." <- I am confused my Matrix NickServ is erroring out the command even though I am using /join RoomAddress
jordan4ibanez: Is it possible to disable opening the inventory?
rubenwardy: You can try setting the formspec to ""
Xanabella: @FriendlyPerson then opposite, you join/open a channel and tell/invite me
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: I had to add the # but even then it said the room is not accessible to me.
sfan5: rubenwardy: the client could just prevent opening it if the formspec is empty
rubenwardy: I suspect it may already do that
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: I made a Private Matrix room and invited you there. Were you able to actually get it? It said that you joined the room. But your not have read/responded in it.
Xanabella: [01:07:34] <FriendlyPerson[m> Did that worked for you? <--- recive query, no invite and still cant answer ... name of the room?
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: I guess your bridge is not working with Matrix then. Is there a way for me to make a Librea room through NickServ or something? I don't know how to make an IRC room...
sfan5: you can join a room of any name and it will exist
Xanabella: just type "/join xxxxxx" or "/join #xxxxxxx"
sfan5: or start to exist if it doesn't yet
FriendlyPerson[m: It's not working I made a room I sure wouldn't exists and it saying it's not accessible...
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FriendlyPerson[m: Same for Xanabella 's room too.
Xanabella: just to be sure of therm ... we are in Room #minetest and Query me Private ... you say Private Matrix room ...  #PrivateFP: ???dont know
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: Yes I first made a private Matrix room which I invited you and your bridge accepted it. But you didn't see it apparently. So I thought to make a librea room on my end. Which NickServ is not giving me.
FriendlyPerson[m: Because of the error above (as well as your room too).
Xanabella: the same like you have enter #minetest ... just some "nonsense text" ... you join allvais ... existing ones ore new are same
sfan5: hah I half expected that the matrix bridge wouldn't let you do this
FriendlyPerson[m: sfan5: No the command does exists it's errors out if you don't put the hashbang. But the issue is is starting/joining a room. Whether it's active or not.
FriendlyPerson[m: And I don't understand why someone else was able to INVITE me to a DM but not Xanabella unless they didn't tried that already.
jordan4ibanez: Is it possible to check if an inventory is open?
Xanabella: [01:30:16] Xanabella hat FriendlyPerson[m in den Channel #Friendlyperson eingeladen <---> and Querry(Private) You must log into your NickServ account to message this user
Xanabella: Here we have Chanserve, how/can you access/join other channel or need vor everyone invite?
Xanabella: [01:41:08] <FriendlyPerson[m> How about now there? ... [01:41:28] <Xanabella> a ... [01:41:28] You must log into your NickServ account to message this user
FriendlyPerson[m: I tried querying you Xanabella , are you able to see my chat now that I did it from the /query command?
Xanabella: ... /join room with "#" not /query Private
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: As I said that not working on my end so I am trying to figure out how to get to you instead. as any time I do /join #room it gives me a "not available" error.
Xanabella: try join #lordofthetest or #minetest-de ... just something diffrent as #minetest
Xanabella: maybe ist for you not Join but Enter/Access
FriendlyPerson[m: Xanabella: It is join but it's not working...
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FriendlyPerson[m: It just won't let me. I am so confused
Xanabella: maybe not we has problem but Matrix<->Libera ... its late, the Problem dont run awai and never run out
asdflkj_sh: erlehmann: yes, twitch chat uses irc, with some nonstandard extensions but similar enough that you can connect with many normal clients iiuc
erlehmann: oh interesting
erlehmann: any docs on that?
IvanGorinich: Hello
Benrob0329: Connecting to Twitch IRC doesn't work anymore afaik
alguien: minetest basic_robot "direction" is overloaded: 1) absolute (N,E,S,W) 2) relative(up, down, left, right, forward, backward) 3) yaw 4) vectors (self.viewdir(), ie cos(yaw), 0 , sin(yaw)) 5) dirid (<insert more math here>)
alguien: you start thinking in terms of 1 at first. You program in terms of 2. You track your own view in terms of 3. You track the bot's view int erms of 4. To properly orient stuff you need 5
alguien: *properly orient stuff to place
alguien: I'm attempting to place a block oriented the same way as the robot. That is to say, I need to convert #4 into #5
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4 -- cppcheck warnings
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5 -- Fixed key names so the key set menu now works. by adamnew123456
alguien: Also I'm not sure if it's the server or what, but player.getview(someone) (which is player:get_look_dir()) returns a different vector than does self.viewdir() ({x=math.cos(yaw), y = 0, z=math.sin(yaw)})
Krock: alguien: https://dev.minetest.net/images/a/aa/player_object_look_horizontal_vertical_yaw.png
Krock: for Z you need cos, and X -sin
alguien: yeah basic_robot does it the other way around, sets x to cos, and y to sin
alguien: s/y/z/
alguien: i mean: replace y in z in that sentence
alguien: s/in/with/
alguien: sorry about that
alguien: https://github.com/ac-minetest/basic_robot/blob/master/init.lua#L106
alguien: how do you turn off the new fly/swim where you look movement?
Krock: alguien: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L218-L221
Krock: P like Pitch move
alguien: thanks mate, that'll help
jonadab: Hmm.  My script that calls minetestmapper was working fine before the power blink.  Now, minetestmapper just says "Exception: attempt to write a readonly database" and exits.  minetestserver is able to access the world, and I can sign on with a client and break and place blocks.  Also, I've checked that none of the world's files are readonly at the filesystem level.
jonadab: Hmm, there's a map.sqlite-journal file, maybe that is relevant somehow?
FriendlyPerson[m: <jonadab> "Hmm, there's a map.sqlite-..." <- That's interesting a journaling file but nothing gotten locked. I wonder if it a transaction was "lost" during the process that the world had no idea "yet".
jonadab: Lost transactions are entirely possible.
jonadab: There were probably chunks loading or even generating when the power blinked.
jonadab: I was using fast+fly specifically to generate map area, in order to be able to get a map of the area around spawn.
FriendlyPerson[m: Indeed that's what PROBABLY happened then.
jonadab: So what do I _do_ about it?
jonadab: Also, why does minetestmapper care about the DB being readonly?  Isn't it just reading anyway?
jonadab: I would expect minetestserver to care about that, more than minetestmapper.
jonadab: Hmm, speaking of that, I should check minetestserver's stdeerr output for notes about it.
jonadab: Yeah, minetestserver's stderr says *nothing* about this.
erlehmann: is it possible for a liquid to fall?
Warr1024: Should be, though I'm not sure how well builtin would handle it
Swift110-mobile: hey all
FriendlyPerson[m: <Swift110-mobile> "hey all" <- Hiya!
erlehmann: is there an issue with contentdb?
erlehmann: prob my network ig
Xanabella: [02:26:48] <erlehmann> is it possible for a liquid to fall? <--- over SelfTimer/ABM check if the Node under the Source was not a Source, remove Source and place it in the under on
erlehmann: Xanabella, i already figured out that dynamic liquid mod does this
erlehmann: but it is … so slow
Xanabella: you not figured out here and ContentDB/Ingame work good/fast for me
FriendlyPerson[m: erlehmann: It's just loaded quick and fine for me. Are you still having issues?
erlehmann: FriendlyPerson[m, try to install the mod dynamic liquid
erlehmann: does it work
erlehmann: for me it does not
FriendlyPerson[m: erlehmann: Which way are you trying? In game or on the website? Or is it both?
erlehmann: both does not work
erlehmann: i mean
erlehmann: ingame
erlehmann: and i can not download the file from the error message
FriendlyPerson[m: Let me try on the site.
FriendlyPerson[m: I got the zip just fine on the site so erlehmann could you please try that instead? It could be that it's too large on the game, the game is not caching it properly, etc.
erlehmann: ok turns out
erlehmann: the /tmp/ filesystem
erlehmann: had too many files
erlehmann: the error message is not entirely wrong
erlehmann: but if there is still space left, it is kinda weird
FriendlyPerson[m: erlehmann: I hate how some unoptimized processes just eat the world there. Makes partitioning home systems a Pain in the Rear. On my next OS load I gonna screw it.
erlehmann: well this is better than the alternativel
erlehmann: i mean
erlehmann: my /tmp was legit trashed
erlehmann: i did it myself
FriendlyPerson[m: It's okay it's no worries. ❤️
Swift110-mobile: Hey all
independent56: Inside the car on a boat almost ready to depart.
independent56: Then we have a 10 hour drive to the medeteranian
fatalerror420: there is
fatalerror420: a house
fatalerror420: in new orle-
alguien: rnd? no rnd?
IvanGorinich: guys ping mtroleplay.ga
IvanGorinich: is it works?
sfan5: doesn't seem to work
sfan5: if you have a minetest server running you can also check using MinetestBot's command
sfan5: like so
sfan5: !up mtroleplay.ga
MinetestBot: mtroleplay.ga:30000 seems to be down (IPv6)
Kimapr: afaik his server uses a test miredo server (teredo)
Kimapr: that probably doesn't route to normal internet i think?
IvanGorinich: it works! it test it with other miredos
IvanGorinich: but i think it not fully works
IvanGorinich: as i want
GNUHacker: hi, how can I copy a node meta in another node?
Warr1024: minetest.get_meta(target):from_table(minetest.get_meta(source):to_table())
GNUHacker: oh thanks
GNUHacker: we can teleport an entity with entity:set_pos(pos)
GNUHacker: is possible teleport nodes?
GNUHacker: same like node:set_pos()?
sofar: you can't teleport nodes. You can only create a node identical to another one in a new location, and then destroy the old node
Elon_Satoshi: Hello! What's the closest thing Minetest has to Computercraft for Minecraft?
Elon_Satoshi: I know there's lua controllers for mesecons. And then there's at least two turtle mods
specing: Elon_Satoshi: client side mods :P
specing: There's basic_robot for programmable robots (I think?)
specing: some servers in the list have it
GNUHacker: elon_satoshi im working in a Minecraft's OpenComputers port to Minetest
independent56: I'm seasick because i got used to the 33 hour journey, so now i swing as i stand.
Warr1024: You mean landsick now?
independent56: Yes
independent56: I had sensory overload as well. The seaside town is swarming with people
Warr1024: That's pretty harsh
y5nw: I remember being on train for over a day (-ish) when I went to see my grandparents. That was a few years ago though, before HSR lines were in operation
Elon_Satoshi: GNUHacker: That's awesome!
Elon_Satoshi: Oh hi warr
Warr1024: howdy
Warr1024: haven't seen you around for a while, elon
Elon_Satoshi: Yeah, it's been a while since I last played nodecore too
Warr1024: whatcha been up to?
Elon_Satoshi: Well, I recently have studied Automate The Boring Stuff with Python a bit
Warr1024: Seems like the people who are most drawn to NC are also the same people who are most drawn to working on their own projects, so they don't just play for very long :-)
Elon_Satoshi: Lol
Elon_Satoshi: Maybe nodecore ls like brainfuck for minetest
* Elon_Satoshi: nervously checks the rules for language
independent56: Ha, i took the train from Bangor to Crewe, then a second train. Was fun.
independent56: But luckly i have recovered.
independent56: (from said sensory overload)
independent56: We had a 10 hour drive from Bilbao to Barcelona
independent56: Was horrible.
Elon_Satoshi: Oh cool
Warr1024: NodeCore's optics are actually pretty close to a turing tarpit
Warr1024: I don't think it's quite as bad as a literal turing machine, but it is the smallest set of composable elements that's turing complete
Elon_Satoshi: How is it not a turing tarpit?
Warr1024: Basically I think to qualify as a proper tarpit you need to specifically go out of your way to some extent to make it such.
independent56: every programming language is a tarpit for those who do not know it.
Elon_Satoshi: Do you think it'd be possible to host a Minetest server over i2p?
Warr1024: Heh, well, NodeCore's optics are only slightly more difficult than oldschool Minecraft redstone (i.e. dust and RST) so it feels a lot less tarry than it could be.  Oldschool MC redstone wasn't even intended to be difficult...
Warr1024: I think MT on I2P should work pretty well, if you can tolerate the latency.
Warr1024: We've seen MT hosted on overlay networks like yggdrasil, which is a great option for people who have the compute resources to host but don't have enough control over their own networks to be able to open a port.
Elon_Satoshi: Ooh yggdrasil
GNUHacker: nice idea i2p server
GNUHacker: I want a MT tor server but UDP
Warr1024: MT could work over tor as well, though the fact that tor is stream-based rather than packet-based could lead to slight instability in connections leading to a complete connection drop, whereas I2P might be able to recover.
Warr1024: yggdrasil though is also actually stream-based (even though they route datagrams over those streams, the underlying connections are TCP) so they're subject to the same risks, but in practice it seems pretty tolerable at least.
Elon_Satoshi: Do you think it'd be possible to make a latency tolerant Minetest server?
Elon_Satoshi: Maybe one where players can't interact real-time, but you can still dig and modify nodes
Warr1024: Minetest is already latency-tolerant ... it's just a question of what penalties the game imposes on you.
Warr1024: The client already does some stuff like prediction to mitigate latency problems.
Elon_Satoshi: Hmm
Elon_Satoshi: Then do you think a latency tolerant game would be possible?
Warr1024: There are games like NC that don't depend on low latency for any vital functions, and while the experience can get a little crappy, it's still theoretically playable at like 1000 or even 2000ms RTT.
Warr1024: There are other games like CTF where if your ping time is in the 100's then fuggedaboudit.
Elon_Satoshi: Ah
Warr1024: Individual mods or gameplay mechanics will probably vary in terms of latency tolerance, and how vital they are to the game overall will determine the overall experience.  Adding or removing a specific mod would probably be enough to have a big impact on the overall picture.
Elon_Satoshi: How well does Minetest work over low bandwidth?
Warr1024: I'm pretty sure NodeCore vanilla is comfortable under like 100, but can be tolerated with mild discomfort up to like 1000, and is still theoretically playable, even if the experience goes to hell, once you exceed the client prediction threshold.
Warr1024: Low bandwidth is actually an area I'm interested in for NC.  I suspect it should be pretty good, for a game of its complexity ... but it's definitely a non-trivial game.
Warr1024: For something like unmodded MTG, the whole game is pretty quiescent once you've loaded all the mapblocks around you, so it should work fine as long as you're patient enough.
Elon_Satoshi: My internet is slow again, so I could be a good test subject
Warr1024: For NodeCore, I suspect a lot may depend on what you have built, e.g. a build that has a lot of cycling optics may trigger mapblock re-sends multiple times a second, which could be cumbersome if those blocks don't compress well.
Warr1024: I say give it a play, at least, and let me know what kind of results you get.  One particular point of interest is the degree of difference between quiet wilderness scenes and being near peoples' factories.
Warr1024: I just put on my todo list to dust off my analyzing proxy :-)
Elon_Satoshi: What's the server address again?
Elon_Satoshi: The server list is taking a long time to load
Elon_Satoshi: Oh great, now warr1024 is taking a long time to load too ._.
* Elon_Satoshi: attemps to search for the server address using lynx
FriendlyPerson[m: Elon_Satoshi: You might need to close the game then reenter. I find if I can't get it going in a few secs then booting the game does the trick.
FriendlyPerson[m: Otherwise I could be sitting there for 30 seconds and it's STILL Not done loading.
Elon_Satoshi: Ah
asdflkj_sh: why haven't irrlicht and minetest been ported to the web with emscriptem?
Sublayer plank: well nobody has devoted the time to making that work I guess
Sublayer plank: irrlicht has emscriptem support and webgl backend iirc
Warr1024: NodeCore Community server is nodecore.mine.nu (port = default 30000)
Warr1024: I was taking a long time to load because apparently the Discord/IRC bridge only translates a mention to a ping if it's at the beginning of a line I guess
Warr1024: There's a lot that's not optimal about being here via the Discord bridge, but then, there'd be a lot that's not optimal about being here via my IRC client or the Matrix bridge too 🤷
FriendlyPerson[m: I thought bridging with Matrix is quite well since you retains some of the Discord features? At least over IRC bridging?
Jonathon: bridging discord to matrix through irc loses everything irc doesnt support
asdflkj_sh: why not join us in free and federated IRC-land? you can get a free bouncer from ircnow and get messages while you're disconnected, use thelounge if you want auto image previews, is there anything else you'd miss?
Warr1024: My main issue is actually getting notifications through 3 different apps when somebody says my name.  That tends to incline me toward using only the platform that gives me the least choice in the matter, rather than the one that gives me the best experience otherwise.
Warr1024: tbh this is one reason why I still have a very "Windows-esque" desktop configuration; I just tend to want everything to match across systems, and that tends to mean that the most flexible have to bend to the will of the least.  Very Tragedy of the Commons in a way.
Warr1024: So the ironic end-result is that you can /msg me on IRC because I'm actually on Libera, but I'm just not directly in any channels that are also bridged to Discord.
FriendlyPerson[m: When I can't use the best of the best (Matrix) I use them concurrently. Discord themeing is just so poor compared to Matrix so I try to use it where I can. Even though Discord is opened lol.
asdflkj_sh: I like weechat in tmux in dwm, it simply inverts the color of the dwm tag (virtual desktop but better) and tmux window when I'm pinged or pm'd, and I could get weechat-matrix and get pings from all ~20 protocols matrix bridges with (https://matrix.org/bridges/) if I wanted
asdflkj_sh: (but I don't want, IRC is the one true chat)
Warr1024: I used to do the irssi-on-tmux thing for a long time, but eventually it got too annoying to get an SMS telling me that somebody had pinged me and I needed to go find a terminal to SSH in to my session to respond.  TheLounge helped somewhat, but it's just so damn inflexible configuration-wise compared to anything else I'm used to...
Warr1024: Like, if I could just say "don't send me a notification in this specific channel for messages from MTDiscord" then I'd be able to camp out in the MT IRC channels too.
independent56: The autopisa is by far the best road infasructure i have ever seen. The UK motorways are kinda good, but nothing compared tothese. But they docome at a price...
asdflkj_sh: <go find a terminal to SSH> do you not have termux or better on your phone?
asdflkj_sh: independent56: wrong channel? or spambot?
independent56: asdflkj_sh, Yes, i am spambot beepboop \j
independent56: (i'm joking)
* asdflkj_sh: reports independent56 to jess /j
jess: nya
independent56: I just like to post travel updates to my peers
Warr1024: I've used termux and connectbot, the experience was just never good enough for when I needed to catch up on a convo and quickly respond.
Warr1024: For SSH now, I actually don't use either, I just have a WeTTY instance behind HTTPS.
Elon_Satoshi: Is it accurate to call IRC federated?
Elon_Satoshi: Federation is when servers communicate with each other, right? But I can't log into Libera and send a message to someone on Rizon
Warr1024: Federation tends to assume a loose association, i.e. each system "owns" some of the assets of the overall network and they share those.  I think IRC networks tend to be more tight organizations than that, since channels themselves are split between servers, so the servers need to strongly agree on governance.
Warr1024: XMPP or Matrix are better examples of federated services, since channels actually belong to each node and only limited agreement is actually necessary.  I think "federated" tends to refer to systems that are self-governing in that way, rather than requiring external governance outside of the tech itself.
Warr1024: You can just run your own Matrix or XMPP server, but you can't just run your own Libera IRC server, you have to comply with certain policy requirements and gain a lot of trust before you can be added to the network.
asdflkj_sh: irc is less federated than matrix in theory, but with network bridges on irc and matrix.org dominance on matrix, it's comparable in practice
Warr1024: Yeah, that's true, Matrix is theoretically more decentralized but in practice it's dominated by a few major players: matrix.org for infrastructure, Element for UI...
FriendlyPerson[m: IF you start from Matrix you can run your own instrafacture up to the UI correct?
FriendlyPerson[m: Then obviously the UI is up the clients right?
Warr1024: You can run your own Matrix network, or your own IRC network, or your own XMPP network.  In the case of Matrix or XMPP it would be easier to join it with an existing network than it would probably be to get IRC servers merged to an existing network.
asdflkj_sh: IIUC existing matrix networks would join with yours by default (as soon as a user joined a room on one network from the other), whereas IRC servers these days only federate with whitelisted servers, usually run by the same org (though originally virtually all servers were on one global network, until efnet formed as Eris-Free, blacklisting a server named eris)
asdflkj_sh: (IDK about XMPP)
erlehmann: xmpp has a federation and lots of non-federated networks, like nintendo switch, eve online, fortnite, EA origins, league of legends … https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming.html
asdflkj_sh: I wonder how many people use irc through Twitch and games like minetest
erlehmann: asdflkj_sh, twitch uses irc?
erlehmann: i think everyone who does not want to build their own thing pretty much uses xmpp
FriendlyPerson[m: erlehmann: What is it really? Like a IRC "core" software of some sort so you can do what you want an slap a name on it?
specing: It's a standardised protocol with standardised extensions and reference implementations available
erlehmann: yeah think like http but for chat
erlehmann: FriendlyPerson[m a lot of newer stuff like matrix really only has one well-tested implementation
specing: *XML
erlehmann: ?
specing: not html
specing: err, not http
specing: whatever
erlehmann: FriendlyPerson[m just read here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP
specing: yes, matrix is held hostage to that pile of javascript called Element
specing: But still it's the best thing we have to combat discord
erlehmann: specing the matrix specification contains grammars not matching the examples and examples not matching the prose.
erlehmann: and when people point out that synapse works differently than the spec, the answer is more often than not “oh, the spec is actually wrong”
erlehmann: it reminds me of microsofts office open xml, the “open standard” that, to comply with, means you just do what excel does or something
specing: erlehmann: If I can reap the benefits without being exposed to its downsides, then yay for me
erlehmann: specing the only thing that worked worse for me than matrix was trying to sign up to discord.
erlehmann: like, the actual signup website lagged my computer so hard i did not do it
erlehmann: that's an *impressive* achievement, even for a contemporary website
FriendlyPerson[m: <erlehmann> "FriendlyPerson just read here..." <- Thanks you very much and I still appreciated you trying specing too. After all it's your thoughts that counts. ❤️
specing: erlehmann: heh
specing: erlehmann: my browser freezes for 10s each time I start typing in Element
specing: (I use a different, native client now)
maximed: I read I can submit patches by e-mail or via IRC.  Where can I find the e-mail address to send a patch to, or how can I se
maximed: submit a patch via IRC
maximed: ?
sfan5: you can technically email c55 but I bet nobody has done this in years
sfan5: you could also link the patch file on IRC if you find a dev who can take care of the rest
maximed: ok, I thought there might be some kind of mailing list to send patches to
sfan5: if at all possible however you should make a pull request on Github
maximed: sfan5: I made a pull request: <https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11515>
BuckarooBanzai: maximed: your PR is based on `5.0.1-dev` you might wanna rebase it on the current `master`
maximed: BuckarooBanzai: '5.0.1-dev' is ahead of 'master'?
maximed: I based the PR on the tag 5.4.1 actually
BuckarooBanzai: strange, your git history seems to diverge on the `5.0.1-dev` commit
sfan5: 5.4.1 is indeed ahead of master
maximed: I rebased the patch on master
alguien: does rnd come around?
calcul0n__: alguien, you might find him on his server i guess (ROBOTS_SKYBLOCK_2.1)
alguien: he's not there
calcul0n__: maybe later then, he was often there when i was playing
celeron55: i begin reading about guix and immediately thought "ok this is so much like nix, when is this going to mention nix"
celeron55: then it finally did
celeron55: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/gnu/packages/games.scm#n3544
celeron55: oh man
celeron55: hands up, who likes scheme (or lisp)
sfan5: *crickets*
IvanGorinich: Hello
IvanGorinich: I making RolePlay server
IvanGorinich: Now it runs on my OrangePI
IvanGorinich: but i havent static ip
IvanGorinich: and have NAT with dynamic ip
celeron55: it's impressive they're making essentially a nixos clone using scheme, but is it really necessary
IvanGorinich: who can help me with ip or domain
IvanGorinich: it would be nice if you can help
celeron55: you need to pick and choose a dynamic dns service to use
IvanGorinich: i make some system with Miredo and FreeDNS afraid
celeron55: i'm not up with the times with those, the ones i used back in the day probably don't exist anymore
IvanGorinich: bt its not work good
celeron55: you'll have to describe your setup and problem more for someone to be able to help
Sublayer plank: do you have CGNAT?
IvanGorinich: CGNAT?
IvanGorinich: you men NAT on provider host?
Sublayer plank: everyone has NAT, but if you have CGNAT you can't host a minetest server since the ip address will be shared among several ISP customers
celeron55: basically do you have control over the NAT or is your ISP doing it
celeron55: technically that's more about port forwarding than dynamic ip but that should be the first question anyway
IvanGorinich: No, I didnt have control on the NAT
celeron55: then you need to get your ISP to not do it, some will do it for free, some for a cost, some won't do it at all
IvanGorinich: and i think it shares with other customers
IvanGorinich: I read on forum what with miredo and FreeDNS i can make DYNDNS with NAT and dynamic IP
IvanGorinich: and i write this script https://notabug.org/IvanGorinich/IPingUS6
celeron55: ah oh miredo was that thing
celeron55: i don't know if that's the best solution
FriendlyPerson[m: And if you can't get your ISP to cooperate (or it's rather costly to do so) you'll need get hosted in a DC. Typically this is done with a VPS. Although if you looking for a more "run and go server" there's a few options for that too. I heard Edgy does this and i just started offering this a few weeks ago too. On the forums to help reduce resources' wastes on my end and of course the cost of running my Minetest server too.
celeron55: there's probably something more intended for this
celeron55: there are services for hosting yourself getting a public IP via a VPN tunnel
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: You might as well just go with a VPS right?
celeron55: well depends
celeron55: with VPS if you need lots of performance or disk space it costs more
celeron55: if you already have a suitable machine at home you might want to just get the IP in way or another
celeron55: also, nothing is more fun as a hobby than to have a physical server to tinker with
BuckarooBanzai: or multiple as a cluster ;)
IvanGorinich: can i use tcp for minetest?
IvanGorinich: i find thing named "locltunnel"
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: That is true if the main goals of this being a large hobby project then I can see.
celeron55: IvanGorinich: no, MT doesn't support tcp
IvanGorinich: ok
FriendlyPerson[m: IvanGorinich: You can't "pick" the protocol. It's UDP and that it. 🙂
celeron55: some day maybe MT will have nat punchthrough support http://www.mindcontrol.org/~hplus/nat-punch.html
celeron55: but there's relatively little interest
celeron55: any serious server will have a public ip and controllable firewall anyway
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: Precisely and you sorta needs to for a deployment sizing up more than several players or so. It's so much easier to hand off like half of the work to the "pros" (or more) and focus on the contents and/or system. There's also still colocation if you still fancy having hardware control (it's can be hard to find shared colo accesses but they do exists).
independent56: I am on a boring ferry from portsmouth to Bilbao. Holiday.
FriendlyPerson[m: independent56: That does sucks indeed. When the transit is not fun on the way/from holiday/vacating. That why I don't like flying. It's Pain the the Rear and not usually that fun.
FriendlyPerson[m: All they really do is take you point A and B and even though they are the most efficient it can still take hours....
independent56: Hmm I am on the Cap Finistre And it is a 33 hour transit. But this is the most comfortable leg. Then i have driving to Catalonia (and the northwest of England)
FriendlyPerson[m: Indeed I see ya.
sfan5: how come you can just have holiday overseas with corona and all that
independent56: Mum had to buy an expensive test for us all. And we tested negative
independent56: It's also the EU (despite us having left)
independent56: us = UK
independent56: http://56i.duckdns.org/Packing.pdf The list i have brought (It is mainly formum tocheck that i m not packing too much.
FriendlyPerson[m: If I had to do that, barring emergencies I wouldn't just waited it out or be allowed under vaccination and/or etc. Not worth it to me to blow tons of money for tests when that can be used where you might wanna spend it instead.
independent56: Ha, they (the ticket guys) explecitly asked "are you vaccinated?", to which mum says "no", so we had to show our test documents.
FriendlyPerson[m: independent56: Why didn't you guys question that option??
independent56: Mum refuses to get the vaccine because it is too "rushed". However, all other vaccinations are fine by her.
independent56: wdym?
FriendlyPerson[m: independent56: Well it wasn't, she need to understand it gone though the same batteries of tests as those "other ones". It just gotten a ton and half resources to do it faster. But none of the processes were "skipped, rushed" or otherwise unaccounted for.
independent56: Try making her change her opinion. She won't,
FriendlyPerson[m: independent56: That's understand but I appreciate you trying. ❤️
independent56: Meh, in a 4 years (5, but my birthday is literally next week), i will be 18, and will have extended privalages.
independent56: The right to free vaccination included
celeron55: well, at least the disease isn't that bad for people your age
celeron55: i don't know about the mum though, a bit on the risky side of things i'd say
FriendlyPerson[m: independent56: Indeed so you can get it yourself then.
independent56: Still, i am the only person wearing a mask consistently on the ship.
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: The main thing it's the spread that's the concerns. Not so much of you becoming sick at all. Just as long as you kept away from becoming hospitalized the vaccine had done it's job.
celeron55: personally, i took the vaccine because statistic started showing it probably will help me not die
celeron55: but of course it has many effects on society
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: Exactly the main goals to keep you well "enough" so you are able to remain a productive citizen for the MOST part. So while you might still get flu like ill effects at least your not strapped to a hospital bed. :)
rubenwardy: I'd rather a tested vaccine and a bat disease
rubenwardy: *than a
rubenwardy: God I hate mailing listw
sfan5: do you have your keyboard too
sfan5: or who is making all those typos
rubenwardy: Not sure if guix has dropped my comment or it's just under review
sfan5: hmm I made one myself, this ruins my statement
rubenwardy: I'm on mobile
IvanGorinich: how i can shutdown minetest server
FriendlyPerson[m: IvanGorinich: it's literally /shutdown
IvanGorinich: in game?
FriendlyPerson[m: IvanGorinich: If you appended the --terminal at the startup you may do it in the terminal too.
sfan5: if you have it running in your terminal session press control + C
IvanGorinich: how i can make autostart of minetest server
IvanGorinich: when i turn on host and when game is down
FriendlyPerson[m: sfan5: in my experiences terminating it takes forever. That why I went as far as to customize the Pterodactyl egg and push a PR for it for Parkercvp. It was so annoying.
independent56: Use cron to do minetest on schedule
sfan5: cron is a bad idea, consult your OS documentation for how to set up services
sfan5: it's probably systemd
IvanGorinich: now i have startup service
IvanGorinich: but minetest make service named "minetest-server.service"
IvanGorinich: what is it?
FriendlyPerson[m: sfan5: They probably means "restart server every day at 4AM". A service will get it going yes but I don't think you can tell a service to restart itself without a scheduler.
sfan5: FriendlyPerson[m: true, could use cron and a service for that
sfan5: IvanGorinich: Minetest doesn't ship with any services but your distribution might (debian?)
FriendlyPerson[m: sfan5: Exactly, deploy the service then cron for restarting said service. 👍️
IvanGorinich: yes
IvanGorinich: armbian
independent56: Does this mean that i cannot do say, visit chinese firewall websites? "You must not use the Service to engage in any activity which constitutes or is capable of constituting a criminal offence, either in the United Kingdom, in France or in any state throughout the world."
independent56: And will i be keehauled for violating this?
independent56: omg, there is censorship of  content which "contain obscene, profane or abusive language or material". Please don't swear here, you may break the rules XD
independent56: i sent a complaint email, but it may not be a good idea - "The Service is intended for consumer use only. The WiFi access may not be used in a manner that damages Brittany Ferries's reputation or goodwill. We have all rights to sue in defamation for the reputation."
Warr1024: Where the hell are you even seeing this?
independent56: On the internal network's T&C
independent56: https://paste.debian.net/1206682/
FriendlyPerson[m: I mean ya they don't want you suck out all of the throughput and/or their bandwidth. After all they aren't your personal Data Center.
independent56: Maybe i will get keelhauled for these IRC messages XD
independent56: FriendlyPerson[m, That's fine. youtube is innacessible because of fortigate. But... ssh into my server (which has a lot of swear words) is not too heavy
FriendlyPerson[m: independent56: Unless they are illegal in nature I doubt it.
independent56: Yay! But i guess violating t&c is kinda illegal :-/
FriendlyPerson[m: and why would sending some messages do that? That what I don't understand...
independent56: because "The Service is intended for consumer use only. The WiFi access may not be used in a manner that damages Brittany Ferries's reputation or goodwill. We have all rights to sue in defamation for the reputation."
independent56: And trash, i have just revealed their name :-0
FriendlyPerson[m: Well these and similar messages are personal in nature.
independent56: ha yeah
independent56: I am going to make services for mapserver and xampp, to restart them on startup.
FriendlyPerson[m: Wow some guy think he's cool because he's showing off Pi Server that can fit in 1U that have a NVMe and 64 ARM cores. I am sorry to burst that "dude" bubble but 64 ARM cores' 1Us aren't "news".
specing: but its cool as a practice cluster for supercomputer users, I guess
specing: wait, how many pis is that, 8?
specing: 16? 64?
* FriendlyPerson[m: uploaded an image: (1508KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/PhoTrhmsQHdqllmhRCQtswXM/Screenshot%20from%202021-08-05%2010-59-32.png >
FriendlyPerson[m: I thought it was just another 1U design.
FriendlyPerson[m: Which itself isn't news for the compute.
rubenwardy: Violating a t&c is more like a breach of contract than actually illegal. It's a civil matter
Warr1024: ...depending on where you live
independent56: Tip: bring an extension cord so you have more sockets and less adapters.
sfan5: tip: don't read the manual of the adapters either because it probably tells you not to plug in an extension cord
sfan5: (not because it's actually a bad idea but rather so they can point at the manual and shed responsibility if anything ever happens)
independent56: Ha... airplane manual "do not use" means that it is wholly the company's fault for a crash
FriendlyPerson[m: sfan5: It's probably for safely concerns. Extension cords are TERRIBLE due the fact most if any don't comes with breakers. So if you have a 15AMP circuit and a cord is just a few AMPs capable you can start yourself a fire. What's worst that the US electric code don't even requires 20AMP circuits to be distinct. So two outlets in a room could be 20AMP circuits even if they "looks like" 15AMP ones.
independent56: all british plugs have fuses if that helps
specing: 220V 25A european master race
independent56: can "ExecStart" have the argument in quotes for a command to execute?
specing: our lights alone are fused for 16A... though not sure what kind of room lighting one could have that consumes 3.5 kW
independent56: 1 K Halogen circuit?
FriendlyPerson[m: independent56: It won't, it's better but it will not prevent a cord from melting and upflaring if it exceeds what it's can accept.
specing: independent56: maybe if you are growing pot lmao
independent56: We have a lot of pot in our house... we boil eggs in them Xd
independent56: And spaghetti
specing: pot = marijuana and other stuff
FriendlyPerson[m: specing: Your not terribly off gaurd either. Pot is intensive with it's lighting requirements that isn't even funny.
independent56: I know, i was making a horrible joke
sfan5: the extension cords I have here say "maximum 3500W" on them, I don't even know how much the infrastructure here provides so that doesn't help me in any way
specing: FriendlyPerson[m: I don't think so. I think it's just that plants grow based on how much light they have and more light = faster growth
independent56: I swear, some personell is trying to sink the ship by washing the walls with water.
celeron55: < FriendlyPerson[m> sfan5: It's probably for safely concerns. Extension cords are TERRIBLE due the fact most if any don't comes with breakers. So if you have a 15AMP circuit and a cord is just a few AMPs capable <- this is a bad design not in the extension cord but in the whole system. Look at how germany and for example finland (where i am) does it. Every outlet is 10A or 16A, and every extension
celeron55: cord is 16A. Can't go wrong
sfan5: !c 3500/220
MinetestBot: 15.909090909090908
sfan5: looks like I'm safe if I trust what c55 says
independent56: specing, yes, the plants are sped up by light... until a limiting factor (like heat or minerals) stops it from having any effect
celeron55: you literally can't buy something from a shop that will cause any risk when everything is rated for the full 16A that simultaneously is the most a socket is fused for
independent56: (trust me, i took triple science GCSE
celeron55: in these countries, that is
celeron55: the UK, the US and probably australia and some others are quite the wild west when it comes to electricity
sfan5: (and many other things...)
celeron55: not even mentioning developing countries
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: Forgive me if I am being terrible but would the 10A circuit simply blows if it attempted to be overloaded so it's stopped at the breaker side instead?
celeron55: if the fuse is rated for less than what you have connected after it (like the extension cord), the fuse will blow before anythin bad happens
celeron55: but if the fuse is rated for more, then the thing after the fuse will blow... like the extension cord
celeron55: hint: you don't want your extension cord to blow up
FriendlyPerson[m: independent56: interesting I didn't know that why it needs so much light, it's because it's "eats it so fast" if you let it.
independent56: Eh, our plugs are the safest
celeron55: the UK plugs are fine when they are correctly designed and fused, but when you buy misdesigned stuff from china, it's all over the place and dangerous
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: Correct that why I wasn't hugely concerned. Even if you put 16A cord to a 10A circuit the circuit's fuse will blow in time right?
independent56: The more light, the more of other things being consumed until it is unable to do that. And that is how a limiting factor works.
Warr1024: UK plugs are safer electrically but more dangerous at night in the dark if not put away properly if you walk around your house barefoot
celeron55: :D
independent56: haha
independent56: 100%
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: That's not any grids faults that's the equipment. Always buy electrical equipment that you can trust. Such as PSUes, cords, UPSes, etc etc etc.
FriendlyPerson[m: Better pay 50 bucks for a decent PSU than that 20 bucks Ebay one that nobody knows the brand name of.
FriendlyPerson[m: (also to be clear, it's OKAY to buy a REPUTABLE used unit. Just be sure you trust the seller and that's actually reputable and RELIABLE PSU brand)
rubenwardy: FFS, the comment I sent as an email to the guix mailing list has turned out as an attachment, rather than a comment 🙄
FriendlyPerson[m: rubenwardy: That is really weird indeed. I am sorry that this happened to you. I wonder if it the email client your using or something?
rubenwardy: Emails sent fine to other email inboxes, it'll be the mailing list software
sfan5: perhaps it wasn't a plaintext email
FriendlyPerson[m: rubenwardy: I see that make sense. Still doesn't make sense that the software did it on your comment. Hope they realize this so they can fix this component of their software.
rubenwardy: Probably was an html email, as that's what they default to
rubenwardy: They should still accept that and just .text() on the email
FriendlyPerson[m: rubenwardy: Most definity indeed.
erlehmann: <celeron55> personally, i took the vaccine because statistic started showing it probably will help me not die
erlehmann: yes it is pretty obvious
independent56: i have been alchaol free for under 15 years (even though it may seem so from the spelling)
independent56: "Children should not drive following consuming Kwells Kids. They should not be unnatended or be allowed to drink alcohol"
independent56: Almost word-for-word
celeron55: guys go get more people on the forum
celeron55: the new server is getting bored
celeron55: too little load
Pexin: they're all waiting for 5.5.0final
Pexin: :]
celeron55: well actually, it's peaking at about 40% cpu use, out of a maximum of 200% (2 cores), so, about 5x users compared to current would be fine
celeron55: more than that and i'm going to have to move it again
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: It will happens naturally. People is still gonna assume the forums is too laggy until they experiences it on the new machine. Hopefully activity will starts picking up now that we are able to "proof" that the forum will take the loads. Then more and more people will come thereafter.
independent56: yai
independent56: Now the only problem is the horrible ferry interent
FriendlyPerson[m: <celeron55> "more than that and i'm going..." <- And if this worries you, there are a few hosts that let you put a "root volume", so you can just "change" VM plans on the fly. Removing the needs to worry about migrating data wise.
independent56: *interнет
IvanGorinich: Hello
FriendlyPerson[m: IvanGorinich: Hiya again!
IvanGorinich: Now i from RevolutionIRC
IvanGorinich: Now I in park
IvanGorinich: With phone
FriendlyPerson[m: Cool beans and got ya.
IvanGorinich: Ping me
IvanGorinich: Pls
IvanGorinich: I teet notifications
FriendlyPerson[m: IvanGorinich:
independent56: By the way i walk on this ferry in the bay of biscay, i look drunk
independent56: It's the boat rolling.
MinetestBot: Ilomiglio: Aug-03 10:22 UTC <sfan5> ...and os.execute is not possible due to sandboxing by default
Ilomiglio: hi, it's still possible to modify stack_max using a mod instead of changing single values in the default mods?
Ilomiglio: i'm using this code, but it doesn't seems to work on singleplayer test mode https://paste.rs/02W.lua
* twoelk: uses vesselfinder to track the Cap Finistere heading south with some 19 knots
Ilomiglio: even a test code prints 99 max stack for the table i set 999
twoelk: hm wind with 30kt from starboard looks like she's doing some rolling
Warr1024: Ilomiglio: you need to use override_item to change an already-registered item, you can't just edit the table directly like that.
Ilomiglio: so things changed from the 0.4 version when i used this way
Ilomiglio: lemme see, maybe it's just a one lines now
Ilomiglio: thank you Warr1024! It's a one liner now
j45: i56: the limiting factors of photosynthesis are: light intensity, carbon dioxide concentration and temperature (i am in year 10 doing triple science with AQA exam board)
Warr1024: yw
j45: Well i finished year 10
FriendlyPerson[m: Interesting and congrats for you there j45. :)
j45: Lol ty(i was just correcting i56 xD)
twoelk: was quite astonished when I discovered grass (not the kind people smoke) was the youngest in the gang and used sophisticated c4 technoligies
independent56: The ship is in the infamous bay of biscay. And it is wavy. the sea throws us and makes my walk unsteady. I cannot even go up to my cabin without fear of falling. Everything is swinging due to the constantly moving gravity. My walk is merely a drunken stumble.
independent56: waves 2.8 m
twoelk: once crossed the channel in heavy seas, was the first time I saw people actually having green faces - I was thoroughly enjoying myself though
independent56: haha what was the height?
independent56: literally plastic bottles have fallen. i am swinging at 30 cm now
twoelk: don't remember. They had us circle out at sea though as it wasn't possible to enter the port
twoelk: friend of mine decided to go to the toilet - very bad idea - that place was floating - not from water though
FriendlyPerson[m: Aww you are very welcome j45, sorry I was eating.
independent56: twoelk, Yep, heavy rolling. i am walkind drunkenly. j5, Yeah, i coudlnt list the factors. But i  am year 11 next year, and after that, the horryfing i-am-no-longer-told-what-to-do phase begins.
independent56: And yeah, i am also doing triple science with AQA.
independent56: at dinner, i had to use the kid's menu because there was french, ultra-posh food. utterly inedible.
FriendlyPerson[m: independent56: Gotta love that time at AppleBees when I had to try their stupid Kraft Mac and Cheese. EVEN THAT tasted like utter garbage.
j45: i56: did you also just finish year 10 then?
j45: Btw we have been sending stuff off topic to this channel for a few hours, maybe move to #minetest-hub-irc (minetest-hub in IRC i think)
FriendlyPerson[m: Isn't the IRC's hub reserved for reputation holding persons in the Minetest community at large? Like major contributors and such? (at least that what I thought I read on the wiki?)
twoelk: somewhat restricted channel
twoelk: and therefore mostly empty these days :(
FriendlyPerson[m: That what I thought, that why I was confused.
independent56: Nah, i think that we should visit #minetest-chat
* twoelk: considers testing some lua mapgen
maximed: sfan5: Be aware that the comment interface on <https://issues.guix.gnu.org> is broken.  Sending mails via an actual e-mail client should work though
sfan5: ^ rubenwardy
sfan5: (I didn't try to comment)
maximed: oops, I meant rubenwardy
maximed: the e-mail went though, so all is ok
maximed: * through
alguien: someone tell rnd the pattern can't be %.%.[^%.] or vargs don't work, it must be [^%.]%.%.[^%.]
alguien: \, nice name... <- two dots not followed by a dot (but by a space), but preceeded by a dot
luizsab: hi. I have two questions.
luizsab: 1) Why technic chainsaw devastate trees around the target
luizsab: 2) How to post custom HUD messages for the player
FriendlyPerson[m: luizsab: That how chainsaws work, they do that in a radius I think 10 by default?
FriendlyPerson[m: luizsab: I think there's a mod for this. What are you trying to do with that?
luizsab: I would like to leave personalized messages to students when they enter and in certain places with instructions
luizsab: but the mining laser also hits surrounding trees, it seems to make an angle at certain times. I was trying with him shooting over the tree
FriendlyPerson[m: luizsab: AHH i am not sure how to do that in depth with HUDs sorry.
FriendlyPerson[m: luizsab: That probably why they are disabled by default in he mod.
luizsab: I understand
luizsab: is there other way to take trees more fast?
FriendlyPerson[m: <luizsab> "is there other way to take trees..." <- Bust out your Technic mod folder and under chainsaw.lua Line 14 you will comes across local max_saw_radius = 12 up the antie to higher numbers to do more clearing. You might wanna tweak other values above it so you don't runs out of EUs.
luizsab: I understand, but it will continue to hit trees I want to conserve
luizsab: it only cuts a single tree if I click on the first block, but sometimes it is buried, this is very laborious and also drains the tool's energy
FriendlyPerson[m: luizsab: If you don't want to increase the range of the tool it might be your best option and you can simply increase the energy store and/or costs to make it lasts longer. As I think that's the fastest you can clear out a forest without cutting down too many trees at once. IF you want upgrade able saws I made a mod for this https://content.minetest.net/packages/Mineminer/technic_addons/ . Which offers two higher tiers of them which
FriendlyPerson[m: holds more EU and are more efficient
luizsab: FriendlyPerson[m thank you I'll see your mod
FriendlyPerson[m: <luizsab> "FriendlyPerson thank you I'll..." <- Awww you are very welcome. If you requires help with anything just let me know. ❤️
luizsab: FriendlyPerson[m 💙
Sokomine: is the forum still in maintenance mode?
FriendlyPerson[m: Sokomine: It's been out of it ever since this afternoon actually. 🙂
Sokomine: :-( hope it will soon be up again
FriendlyPerson[m: Sokomine: It IS and it's BEEN since this afternoon lol.
Jonathon: current IS up
Sokomine: er. is the forum now up or not?
FriendlyPerson[m: Sokomine: As I already said twice now... The forum been up since this afternoon.
fatalerror420: shut up
fatalerror420: stupid head
FriendlyPerson[m: ??
Jonathon: :thonking:
Jonathon: sokomine: if your that confused, why not visit it and find out for yourself?
FriendlyPerson[m: I mean it's possible if they have difficulties processing information or even if they are not native. Which is why I reworded my responses every time and reassured them that that what I meant in the past.
fatalerror420: STOOPID
fatalerror420: Bashes head into window
wsor4035: well then
FriendlyPerson[m: Um not quite and I never understand why people think it's "cool" to be calling others "stupid" per say.
fatalerror420: im not a hero, just a man with a dream
Jonathon: please cease
fatalerror420: ceased
FriendlyPerson[m: Alrighty I am gonna head off, you all take care and have a good evening. 🙂
FamilyMiner: Hi, can someone tell me how to use /spawnentity to get mods_animal animals appear?
FamilyMiner: I have tried mobs_animal:bunny as the EntityName
FamilyMiner: the animals are spawning in wild as they should
Warr1024: probably need to read the code (unless it's documented) to find out the names of entities
FamilyMiner: I thought it was by this line: mobs:register_mob("mobs_animal:bunny")
FamilyMiner: but I just get message "Cannot spawn an unknown entity"
FamilyMiner: Ha! sorry, I just realized... mods != mobs :D
Sven_vB: hi :) is there any way in MineTest 5.4.1 to toggle safe dig mode via a chat command?
Sven_vB: I'd prefer to not have to leave the server for that, because the login takes several minutes
FriendlyPerson[m: Sven_vB: 100's of MBs of media I am assuming? Because even when I was trying to remote media mine with 9 .oggs it was done in a minute or two.
Warr1024: You should probably setup a test SP world to verify your settings or something.  Client config stuff is generally either "baked in" or otherwise frozen at the time you enter a world, and there's no way to access those settings, let alone modify or apply them, without dropping back out to the menu.
Sven_vB: FriendlyPerson[m, yes, it's the media section that takes forever
Sven_vB: FriendlyPerson[m, however, even if it were just a second to reconnect, it would clear the chat history. there's just no excuse why toggling such a simple flag would require a reconnect.
FriendlyPerson[m: Sven_vB: It's not that setting it's how the server is. Even changing a chat message (e.g. a mod) requires the server to be restarted. I am assuming since the minetest.conf is only read when the server is started.
IvanGorinich: Hello i have dynamic Ipv6 with Miredo
IvanGorinich: I connect DynDNS
IvanGorinich: can i use only domain
IvanGorinich: without bind_adress
Warr1024: I think you can bind to an IPv6 wildcard address, similar to how binding to 0.0.0.0 in IPv4 means "all IPv4 addresses"
sfan5: you shouldn't need to specify the bind_address
Sven_vB: FriendlyPerson[m, safe dig mode is a client setting
Sven_vB: FriendlyPerson[m, the server is not restarted. I'm playing in multiplayer.
Sven_vB: would be hilarious if admins would have to restart the entire server just for one player toggling their dig mode. :D
Warr1024: You might have to specify the bind address if MT only tries to bind a single socket, and the OS only allows one address family per socket.
FriendlyPerson[m: Sven_vB: I honestly never heard of such of a client setting before. Forgive me for sounding "dumb" but what does it actually do? Auto sneaks you to prevent you falling so easily?
Sven_vB: FriendlyPerson[m, it decides whether holding the primary mouse button will continue digging after the first successfully dug node, and whether holding the secondary mouse button will atempt to place more blocks after the first successfully placed block.
Sven_vB: would be super nice if I could easily toggle whether my super fast pickaxe shall mine one block or lots
FriendlyPerson[m: AH I see so it's prevent you digging too fast so you are diging more safely. That's makes sense.
specing: Sven_vB: you can write a CSM that rate-limits it
specing: you can do this with stock client
Sven_vB: specing, I'd rather implement a toggle key for the existing option if I have to
sfan5: IvanGorinich: if you specify ipv6_server = true in your config it should just work automatically
IvanGorinich: i do
IvanGorinich: but nothing
sfan5: how are you testing it?
erlehmann: sfan5 why does this PR also remove a comment? "// added in protocol version 14"
erlehmann: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11511/files
sfan5: nobody cares about that
erlehmann: sfan5 why does your PR have „Drop it ingame, observe a warning but no crash“ here? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11511
sfan5: because that's one of the things it fixed?
erlehmann: wait, what happens if you drop the item?
erlehmann: it is very important that the item metadata gets preserved as long as it is only dropped and picked up
erlehmann: (otherwise shulkers will break)
Krock: which metadata are you talking about?
erlehmann: staticdata
erlehmann: i have an example for you
Krock: do you know right that such large packets couldn't be sent in first place?
erlehmann: these objects exist in mineclone2, mineclonia and mineclone5
erlehmann: https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/pulls/132
erlehmann: they are fine as long as … oh
erlehmann: well
erlehmann: i think they are fine as long as their metadata is not touched because the PR by fleckenstein that avoids bookbanning is active on clamity
Krock: btw staticdata != metadata
erlehmann: shulkers are portable chests. it is very easy to get over the 64kb (or so) threshold
sfan5: erlehmann: the server crashes because the wield item in object properties also has a limit of 64k
erlehmann: so i just want to make sure that this patch does not break mineclone2 / mineclone5 / mineclonia and whoever else uses shulkers
sfan5: the entity will not be modified
sfan5: it just may not appear correctly on the client
erlehmann: sfan5 so it is possible to drop it and pick it up even with the patch?
sfan5: yes
erlehmann: good, thank you
erlehmann: i would suggest to add something like the “getwrittenbook” command here to devtest https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/pulls/132/files
erlehmann: > “/getwrittenbook 65323” creates an item that creates the largest possible serializable written book item entity when dropped.
Krock: don't don't do that
Krock: *just don't
erlehmann: > “/getwrittenbook 65324” creates an item that creates the smallest possible non-serializable written book item entity when dropped.
erlehmann: Krock, what do you mean?
erlehmann: don't do what?
Krock: keep data within reasonable limits
erlehmann: have you used shulkers?
Krock: I never used MineClone2, so I don't think so
erlehmann: there is a shulker mod on contentdb i think
erlehmann: they are very important for the gameplay
Krock: however the wrench from technic also might contain tons of metadata, but that's item metadata
erlehmann: now the problem is, an object can legitimately have a few kb of metadata. think of a book, or a heavily enchanted item.
erlehmann: the problematic interaction has two parts
Krock: then compress it better
erlehmann: first, you have shulkers – the portable chests
Krock: anything else requires a protocol change
erlehmann: second, you can drop those and item entities are created
erlehmann: uh no it works right now
erlehmann: the only thing that did not work was the crash
erlehmann: maybe i am missing something
Krock: the crash did not work, so no crash happened?
Warr1024: You'll probably have to limit the capacity of those things, or you'll have to store the data in a separate channel when it overflows
erlehmann: oh the interesting thing is that those things are heavily used but so damn worth it that apparently since they were introduced it only rarely happened that anyone dropped them and walked away
erlehmann: the capacity of them is limited
Krock: deflate compression might solve that
sfan5: not reliably
sfan5: image putting books inside
sfan5: imagine*
erlehmann: yeah, someone could write a book with random characters. that book is like, what, 4kb or so. typical book size.
FriendlyPerson[m: I think they are concerned that if this patch goes live it will break those games. While MCx shouldn't be the king of everything it's probably best to at least understand the implications it MAY have on those games. If it can't be easily adjusted at least make it clear on the patch that games that uses so much metadata (or whatever it is) MUST adapt accordingly.
erlehmann: well as i understand sfan5 it will only lead to a warning and nothing will break
erlehmann: to the contrary, the crash that i experienced (and fixed in mineclonia) will not occur
erlehmann: because the serialization function does not bug out
erlehmann: Krock Warr1024 mineclone2 did a lot of stupid things regarding resources, but shulkers are an essential gameplay concept. people make so-called “kits” with specific contents, dupe them and give them to other players. like: redstone kit.
erlehmann: or someone wants to build a city, first thing they do is carry a lot of shulkers with building materials there.
sfan5: should've used chest minecarts smh
Warr1024: Yeah, NodeCore has Totes that are similar, but their capacity is limited so they're never close to serialization limits.
erlehmann: ton clamity, i made a kit that contains banners with patterns. (banners are another item that can legitimately have metadata)
Krock: or detached inventories :3
erlehmann: sfan5, chest minecarts do not exist as far as i know.
sfan5: i thought MCL2 was a minecraft clone
sfan5: how can that be
Warr1024: If you can have an item that can hold up to the limit of metadata, then that item cannot also be stored inside another item that stores its items in metadata.
erlehmann: sfan5 no one implemented it properly yet
sfan5: granted making this work via detached inventories is a bit tricky but shouldn't be that hard
erlehmann: i have a shulker full of shulkers full of obsidian hehe
Warr1024: Storing overflow metadata in mod_storage or separate files is also not that hard
erlehmann: that's like, 27 * 27 * 64 obsidian
erlehmann: yes i thought about mod storage
Warr1024: You can't allow nesting these infinitely without either running into an engine limit, or just bombing the engine.
sfan5: @Warr1024 tracking item metadata stored separately is hard
erlehmann: it was allowed to do it in minetest 5.3 as far as i know
erlehmann: at least fleck claimed that
Warr1024: I mean it's straightforward, it's just messy as hell.
sfan5: how do you know when to delete an entry then?
Warr1024: Whenever the world is deleted
erlehmann: sounds like a memory leak
sfan5: that does not satify my criteria for a proper implementation
erlehmann: TO ME
erlehmann: what sfan5 says
erlehmann: Warr1024 do not worry, shulkers can not legally be nested anymore.
erlehmann: but you can put items in them
Warr1024: I didn't say it was possible to do properly
erlehmann: and even if every item has like 2.5kb of metadata only (standard size for heavily enchanted stuff), then 27 items get you over the limit
erlehmann: the enchantment stuff might get better with zlib/deflate
erlehmann: but books exist
sfan5: that kinda seems like a problem with enchantments to me
Warr1024: Also all this obsession with having the highest standards of "proper" implementation is probably why we only ever have complete crap implementations instead of having moderately okay ones.  As soon as someone thinks "I should make this not be a complete piece of shit" development gets stalled trying to make it actually GOOD.
erlehmann: sfan5 oh, the enchantments mod was way worse before ryvnf fixed it!
Krock: they might be serializing some date to JSON or lua tables to put into a meta data field
erlehmann: an enchanted item could take up 21kb of space!
Warr1024: You might just have to disallow items in the shulker that contain more than a certain total length of metadata.
FriendlyPerson[m: MTDiscord: Agreed I think they are worried about breaking more than it's worth. At least in ONE SITTING.
sfan5: there's a difference between a non-ideal implementation and a hack
erlehmann: >  As soon as someone thinks "I should make this not be a complete piece of shit" development gets stalled trying to make it actually GOOD.
erlehmann: lol what
Warr1024: Yeah, the difference between a non-ideal implementation and a hack is how long it takes you to say the name
erlehmann: ok then tell me something
erlehmann: fleckenstein has delivered a thing that deals with item lag (bookbanning)
erlehmann: where you throw a bunch of books at a player to lag them
erlehmann: that is not merged in minetest, why
erlehmann: is it because it breaks client stacking prediction?
Warr1024: Basically when you have something that's bad, you should try to move the needle toward good.  If you can't make it as far as you wanted to, that doesn't mean you should just leave it as bad.
Krock: add text limits to your books. easy.
erlehmann: this one https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11014
sfan5: erlehmann: it doesn't break that
FriendlyPerson[m: MTDiscord: Exactly aim for 100% but when that's not possible do what's practical.
erlehmann: sfan5, oh then i misunderstood
Krock: FriendlyPerson[m: MTDiscord is a bot or relay server. check the name afterwards
erlehmann: >  TechDudie approved these changes Apr 23, 2021
erlehmann: what else needs to happen?
erlehmann: as far as i know, that patch runs on clamity
erlehmann: but
sfan5: you quoted a random person approving the changes.
sfan5: anyone can do that
erlehmann: ah ok
erlehmann: so anyone can approve stuff lol
erlehmann: sfan5 what is your gripe with the thing? is it still that you think it is unreasonable to store this stuff?
erlehmann: i think in any case it is a good optimization
FriendlyPerson[m: Krock: Understood thanks for reassuring me of that but I was trying to quote the reply. Is there's a better way to do that?
Krock: FriendlyPerson[m: copypaste the name
sfan5: FriendlyPerson[m: ah, must be matrix doing that automatically then?
sfan5: erlehmann: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11014#issuecomment-791531973
FriendlyPerson[m: sfan5: Yes it does  that automatically.
Warr1024: Don't we already have private vs. public fields on node meta?
sfan5: apart from discussion about the implementation having the client announce that it's saving the map is a misfeature IMO
FriendlyPerson[m: So I can either quote the reply or I can't. There's no "quote this person as"
sfan5: yes, this would be item meta
Warr1024: Oh, I see, Fleck already discussed that in one comment
Warr1024: saying that it would be better to make these private by default instead of public ... unfortunately, there was an issue to do the same for node meta but it got shot down
Warr1024: I ended up doing it at the Game level
Warr1024: I suppose if we had set_private in item meta then it could similarly be done at the game/mod level
erlehmann: sfan5, my browser (elinks) says “The requested fragment "#issuecomment-791531973" doesn't exist.”
sfan5: it's inside the collapsed comments
erlehmann: oh
erlehmann: damn github
sfan5: gitlab runs on even more javascript stuff, be glad we aren't using that
erlehmann: is it possible to link directly to it?
erlehmann: i mean to the comment
erlehmann: i try chromium
sfan5: expanding comments and then pressing return inside the address bar should bring it up
sfan5: anyway it's my comment from 5th Mar
Warr1024: Map-saving concerns are certainly scope-creep.  The server should be allowed to choose not to send data to the client for the common use-case of the client simply playing the game and wanting non-shitty behavior.
erlehmann: such UX ._.
erlehmann: ok thx
erlehmann: hiding comments is really an antifeature
erlehmann: “common use case” lol
erlehmann: i am an amateur historian
erlehmann: i collect cursed items and impossible builds in world downloads
Warr1024: Allowing the server to hide selected meta fields from the client seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to live at the MetaRef level, not just at the NodeMetaRef level.
erlehmann: wow, it is possible to click “more items” on github before the js has fully evaluated everything and then it does not work. so everyone, do not click as soon as the page loads, wait a few seconds.
erlehmann: sfan5 ok i see your comment
erlehmann: sfan5 but the thing you are proposing is an entirely different way of addressing the problem that requires mod authors to do stuff
erlehmann: whereas fleckensteins solution requires mod authors do to basically nothing
erlehmann: the engine just handles it
Warr1024: Requiring mod authors to do stuff is not at all unreasonable.  Mod authors already have to do stuff to be mod authors.
Warr1024: Requiring people to do stuff to keep things the same is more unreasonable than requiring them to do stuff to take advantage of a new feature.
erlehmann: well i work in IT security and from experience i think it is wishful thinking that every poser with a keyboard will do the work to check if their items are too big.
Warr1024: I would not be opposed to a compromise of having some fields marked private by default and using the set_private API just to handle exceptions to those rules ... but historically PRs that leave default behavior intact have a better chance of actually passing.
erlehmann: i mean, a lot of people who claim to be professional developers can't make hello world binaries that fit on a floppy
erlehmann: or web pages that can be downloaded over 3g lol
Warr1024: It's not the engine's job to completely prevent broken mods, only to provide the tools necessary for sufficiently competent mod authors to be able to solve the problem in at least SOME way.
erlehmann: the thing is, in this case, fleckenstein is one of the posers with the keyboard
erlehmann: but i think he has a point
Warr1024: Yeah, too bad this isn't an open source community where anyone could just send a PR to ... oh wait... :-|
Warr1024: Personally I would be okay with marking a shitton of stuff private by default and require it to be manually marked public ... but based on MT's past history I don't expect that to fly.
erlehmann: the thing is, i agree that mineclone2 approaches are ridiculous often
erlehmann: and i disagree with fleck about it being a super important game or something
erlehmann: it is just one of many
erlehmann: but it is one that manages to be so broken at times that it shows how badly designed some engine things are (because it lets mods do the things that mineclone2 does)
Warr1024: I honestly haven't decided whether having a relatively good clone of MC in the MT ecosystem is actually more beneficial or harmful yet, it's clearly some mix of both.
erlehmann: Warr1024 i have had a lot of fun with it
erlehmann: best thing, i don't need to think about game balancing when implementing stuff, unless minecraft is obviously wrong
FriendlyPerson[m: erlehmann: YEA I am not gonna say he's the king of everything but to be fair what games do we have that people would want to make servers for right? I can count maybe the top 5 would probably be competent on a server. MCx games, NodeCore variants and Dreambuilder. There's possibly a few others but that's seems to the highest polished games I can see.
erlehmann: (like with snow layer / silk touch interaction – silk touch does not work on snow layers in minecraft because they erroneously closed the bug)
Warr1024: I've sort of given up on expecting the engine to do the right things out of the box.  Mostly I just want it to support doing the right things at all, and leave whether they're done right or not to the community.  Footgun, cold dead hands, etc, apparently.
erlehmann: my approach right now in mineclonia is also “mineclone2 does probably the first thing that come to mind and it is probably not the best thing and the engine will find some way to handle it in most cases and crash if i approach the boundaries”
Warr1024: We don't need a TON of games.  Really just a few good ones.
Warr1024: Having an MC clone makes it easier for MC players to make the jump to MT ... but on the flip side, it also keeps them sort of stuck in the MC rut.
erlehmann: well that is an issue entirely orthogonal to “should the engine try to do the right thing because mod authors don't read the rubenwardy book”
erlehmann: i mean, think of stuff like a network packet being sent as a side effect, even if some value did not actually change
Warr1024: I mean a LITTLE idiot-proofing is not a bad thing, I just wouldn't go too far down that rabbit-hole after I've seen the speed at which they patch the idiots to bypass said idiot-proofing.
erlehmann: in my opinion, the engine could at least output a warning whenever a packet is sent that is not necessary
FriendlyPerson[m: MTDiscord: Yes and no, there still not a lot of choices when it comes to games. As I said there's maybe 5 games that are worth actually playing. As in "I installs it, turns on and it's plays".
erlehmann: like, mineclonia sends over 50 packets/s less than mineclone2 and mineclone5
sfan5: erlehmann: if it could output a warning it could also just not send that packet
Warr1024: There's some stuff that seems really obvious that the engine could do, like not sending duplicate entity properties ... but I also find that solving it in Lua actually works out better anyway.
erlehmann: sfan5 the problem with not sending that packet without a warning is that the globalstep or whatever that uselessly updates the stuff is then not detected
erlehmann: the problem with “solving it in lua” is the bookkeeping
erlehmann: if you get it wrong … well, crash, corruption, or, ideally, dupe :D
Warr1024: Friendly: there are a few hidden gems farther down the list.  A lot of the problem is that "top" stuff is mostly sorted by popularity, and especially popularity is measured by downloads rather than the experiences people have AFTER the downloads.  Reviews and the CDB Featured list is helping with that, but there's still a lot of built up popularity effects that haven't dissipated yet.
sfan5: erlehmann: great so we agree this should be solved in lua ;)
sfan5: btw this should be easy to detect with a lua wrapper
sfan5: engine doesn't have to do it
Warr1024: It's also important to remember that not everyone is looking for the same kind of playing experience, and some of the more obscure games offer very different play styles.  Box World 3D, for example, is basically a 3D Sokoban clone with no sandboxiness at all, plus it's a very SHORT game, so it's fun for a while and then you reach the end and (probably) uninstall it.
FriendlyPerson[m: Isn't the GS akin to "ticks" in Minecraft? or I am missing something on why it's "stupid"?
erlehmann: sfan5 the problem with the current approach is that people like fleck develop stuff that works on their machine
erlehmann: because the engine is not limiting it
Warr1024: I prefer to solve stuff in Lua in-situ, and if I find the problem is part of an underlying theme, I promote it up to the Game level, and then if I think it might be applicable beyond that, I'd migrate it into builtin, if it's clean enough.  ABM Muxing, for example, could be a candidate for that, if it were only cleaner.
erlehmann: FriendlyPerson[m, it is stupid to do a bunch of stuff in a globalstep that should be event-based. mineclone2 and mineclone5 for example, check each globalstep if the player has armor or not and then send a network packet to either show the armor bar or not. mineclonia has that fixed (by upgrading to a newer version of the wuzzy hudbars mod).
Warr1024: It's not terrible to do background checks for things where there's a possibility of events being lost ... but every step is overkill, and actually sending updates every step even if there is no change is extra-bad.
FriendlyPerson[m: erlehmann: Understood thanks for explaining that to me. It was just the context not the actual GS. I thought it was.
erlehmann: FriendlyPerson[m, similarly, the sprint mod in mineclone2 and mineclone5 tells every player to adjust their field of view every tick. it just adjusts which value it sends, based on if the player is sprinting. this is, of course, really bad. and fixed in mineclonia!
erlehmann: i think the engine should at least output a warning for sending dozens of packets with the same content each second
erlehmann: i mean, dozens of warnings lol
sfan5: erlehmann: if there was good documentation on what to look for and how to debug this it would be less an issue, but there is not
erlehmann: then ppl would *probably* clear it up
FriendlyPerson[m: Indeed warn then limits/removes.
sfan5: the fewest modders know about the packet counter in --verbose
sfan5: which it gives a pretty good idea what you're doing wrong in many casesd
sfan5: -d
sfan5: while*
erlehmann: sfan5 i actually used that and it is in --info i think?
Warr1024: I don't see a reason the engine should actually send the packets if they match the state that was already just sent.  If I can keep track of past sends in lua then the engine should be able to do so too ... but then, if I can keep track of it myself, then I'll probably just do that and not care whether the engine does.
sfan5: --trace also shows it if you mean that
erlehmann: sfan5 oh i have a thing that could be in minetest utils/tools directory: https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/src/branch/master/tools/analyze-packet-spam
erlehmann: # To collect such a log file of minetest running for 10 minutes, run:
erlehmann: # timeout 600 minetest --info >log.txt 2>&1 >/dev/null
erlehmann: # To get packet counts from that file, run:
erlehmann: # ./analyze-packet-spam <log.txt
erlehmann: sfan5 could that script go into minetest proper?
sfan5: that's pretty mcuh an exact recreation of the packet counter I'm trying to tell you about
sfan5: much*
erlehmann: oh lol
erlehmann: ok tell me more
sfan5: except the builtin one works in 30 second intervals
erlehmann: oh well
sfan5: would be easier to make that configurable if wanted
erlehmann: this one just does one thing
erlehmann: it figures out the measurement interval, eats the 30 second interval things and calculates packets per second
erlehmann: so i would argue it is an improvement
sfan5: http://sprunge.us/4fLyab
sfan5: hmm I thought I added per packet averages...
erlehmann: well right now my thing works
erlehmann: we used it to reduce mineclonia packet spam
erlehmann: and i bet other mods would use it too
erlehmann: the per-second thing is important to see when it is excessive
sfan5: maybe if we had a fancy GUI more modders would use it ;)
erlehmann: did you know that some weather mod (the one in the mcl* games) simulates each raindrop separately and sends a TON of particle spam
erlehmann: maybe i am not in the mood for jokings
specing: sounds like a job for CSM
Warr1024: I actually started work on a proxy that analyzed MT traffic, but wasn't sure exactly which direction to take it.  I was sort of inclined to try to measure networking costs ... seeing that it's possible with logging sounds like it would simplify things a lot
erlehmann: sfan5, that thing is the thing i parse
sfan5: yeah I realized
Warr1024: I'm more concerned with total bandwidth than packet count, for the most part, though.  Sending a lot of big packets is a lot worse than a lot of little ones...
erlehmann: sfan5 yeah so can my script go into minetest proper or do you think it needs work? it is immensely useful, because 30 seconds is too little of a measurement interval tbh
erlehmann: so it adds up a bunch of 30 second thing, figures out start and end, gives you packet count per second, done
erlehmann: on the other hand the 30 second thing helps you if you want to see if you have issues *right now*
erlehmann: but it does not work well in code review
sfan5: hm
erlehmann: sfan5 you can see how we used it in mineclonia here: https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/issues/111
Warr1024: Do you see evidence of these problems in the F5 graphs, or do you actually have to dig into them with more powerful tools before you can detect them?
erlehmann: well you can see that there are too many packets
erlehmann: but you need to figure out which ones
erlehmann: we used my script and asked anon5 for help
erlehmann: anon5 has this go-based proxy (that also strips out needless stuff i think)
erlehmann: sfan5 you can see here how the 30 second counts were too variable for cora to say “yep this is it” https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/issues/111#issuecomment-25445
erlehmann: so she averaged 10 of them
erlehmann: my script just automated that process
erlehmann: sfan5 Warr1024 you can see here how we checked that the improvements wuzzy did to the hudbars mod were working https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/issues/111#issuecomment-25729
erlehmann: or no
erlehmann: this was just for armor bar autohiding turned on vs off
erlehmann: 58.0	PACKET_COUNT_TOCLIENT_HUDCHANGE
erlehmann: vs
erlehmann: 44.1	PACKET_COUNT_TOCLIENT_HUDCHANGE
erlehmann: you see, there was a change, but it is not obviously supported by 30 second sampling
erlehmann: (which is why we sampled for around 600 seconds)
erlehmann: (i.e. 10 min)
erlehmann: <specing> sounds like a job for CSM
Warr1024: It'd be nice if we could also get an idea of the bandwidth cost of those packets rather than just the counts...
erlehmann: specing, to you everything sounds like a job for a CSM lol
erlehmann: Warr1024 true, but the problem with the packet amount is that any lost packet can lead to lag / desync etc.
erlehmann: try playing on a high-bandwith connection with a few percent of packet loss
Warr1024: For a while I used to just compare packet counts against MTG, but "do-nothing game does nothing" doesn't seem like a fair standard.
erlehmann: lol
erlehmann: try to compare against mineclonia. if you exceed it, you probably do something stupid.
erlehmann: i doubt you will exceed it. the stupidity i have encountered is entirely located within mineclone2, mineclone5 and the weather mod all three games share.
erlehmann: and by stupidity i mean the things i already described.
specing: erlehmann: yeah
erlehmann: simulate each raindrop etc.
erlehmann: specing why don't you contribute to waspsalive then
specing: need to rebase first
specing: read its api and port my scripts
Warr1024: Well, just shooting for "more packets than MTG but fewer than MC2" sounds like a decent sanity range, but I'd really like to have a narrower target :-D
specing: i also want to make sscsm a reality
Warr1024: even if SSCSM were extremely sandboxed and could only do things like manipulate HUDs, particles, and sounds, I could see getting a lot of use out of them.
erlehmann: Warr1024 not fewer than mineclone2, fewer than mineclonia.
erlehmann: mineclonia is mineclone2 with a lot of packet spam fixed
erlehmann: (and other stuff ofc)
erlehmann: if minetest makes server-sent client-side mods, i guaranteed you i will spend a *lot* of energy to make client-send server-side mods
erlehmann: (very sad that the feature of client-sent server side mods got removed)
specing: nah warr, I'd do SSCSMs on waspsaliva, with full access to the whole API
specing: and a contentdb for them, so they'd be reviewed beforehand
Pexin: erle: client-sent server side mods..  I cannot express how deeply I wish I could inject serverside code into web servers that try to force js for basic functionality..   :|  (very different problem domain, I know. but I can fantasize)
erlehmann: Pexin well, sometimes you can
Pexin: "you want to force me to run your code on my side of http? well Fair's Fair!"
Warr1024: At first you think "js is code! I shouldn't be running somebody else's CODE, that could cause security problems!"  ... then they discover yet another bug in common JPEG libraries that allows RCE ... :-/
Warr1024: Turns out that the difference between code and data is mostly just something we made up and hackers don't abide by it.
Pexin: js is _intended_ to be code
Warr1024: On the flip side, the fact that JITted JS runs so close to your hardware that they can actually read stuff out through timing sidechannels is pretty bonkers.
Pexin: outright security vulnerabilities aside, there are things "modern" js is deliberately allowed to do that I may not want it to
Pexin: even something like android's halfassed permission system for the js engine would arguably help
Warr1024: Effectively js does have a half-assed permission system in the browser, but it's sort of meta-half-assed because it's not implemented or enforced consistently across browsers, and may be meta-meta-half-assed because they decided to only make it cover very few things like location APIs and stuff.
Warr1024: ...so, eighth-assed?
Pexin: quantifiable ass
Warr1024: tbh it's been bugging me for a long time: when you say half-assed, is the "assed" half the half you screwed up, or the half that you actually at least made an attempt at?  Would quarter-assed be better or worse than half-assed?
* Pexin: ponders
erlehmann: <Warr1024> Turns out that the difference between code and data is mostly just something we made up and hackers don't abide by it.
erlehmann: no Warr1024 read about LANGSEC
erlehmann: everything not context-free or regular or calc-regular is dangerous
Ilomiglio: hi, i'm writing a mod for teleporting back the player if they trepass a threshold: https://paste.rs/kal.lua
Ilomiglio: however, i can't get passed neither player obj neither its name
Ilomiglio: i was disconnected
ilomiglio: keeping disconnecting with hexchat, trying with webchat
fatalerror420: Well whats your issue?
ilomiglio: i get that player or name is nil
ilomiglio: it's like player obj doesn't get passed to the function
BuckarooBanzai: !tell ilomiglio you have to use `minetest.get_connected_players()` and iterate over the returned players periodically
MinetestBot: BuckarooBanzai: yeah, yeah
fatalerror420: Also you can use is_player
fatalerror420: And use ipairs
fatalerror420: _, player in pairs(get_objects_in_radius) blah blah if player:is_player then
MinetestBot: ilomiglio: Aug-03 07:50 UTC <BuckarooBanzai> you have to use `minetest.get_connected_players()` and iterate over the returned players periodically
Ilomiglio: i found a difference between lua and luajit, in the former an integer division is performed via // (ex. 10 // 3 ) while luajit uses math.floor and math.ceil
Ilomiglio: but i tried an os.execute cmd, and failed for some reason
sfan5: you either get a lua 5.1 or luajit environment
sfan5: integer division and the integer type are a 5.3 feature, that is never available
sfan5: !tell Ilomiglio ...and os.execute is not possible due to sandboxing by default
MinetestBot: sfan5: I'll pass that on when Ilomiglio is around
sfan5: maybe they'll come back
twoelk: duh ......... just after I finished composing a lengthy post the forum goes into maintenance    ......     hmm better save my text for reuse I guess
celeron55: yep, i'm in a bit of a hurry, tomorrow it wouldn't have had a valid certificate anymore
celeron55: trying to finish moving it to another host
sfan5: the maintenance page still links to webchat.freenode.net btw
celeron55: oops 8)
Sublayer plank: oh my, there's a massive hidden archive of old minetest versions on 8dromeda.net?
twoelk: so that evprevia is the hint-blueprint to a project?
celeron55: that archive of old versions has been linked a couple of times on the forums
celeron55: well, at least once. maybe the other times were on IRC
celeron55: i will probably use this backup as the final data for moving the wikis also, so don't get carried away making edits now
iisu: I just came to the forum to see the message.
iisu: Congrats on the server change.
Sublayer plank: will the forum page loading hopefully improve now on the new server?
sfan5: it will
iisu: I can already barely make coffee while it loads. You're gonna deprive us of caffeine. :P
FriendlyPerson[m: Hiya been trying to find the correct IRC channel here on Matrix did I finally found it after referencing the wiki that it's on libera now? 🙂
sfan5: yep
FriendlyPerson[m: Awesome thank you very much sfan5 for reassuring me of that. 🙂
Guest8533: Good morn
FriendlyPerson[m: Guest8533: Aww thanks! Good morning to you too! :)
FriendlyPerson[m: Interesting dropped by to say good morning then just quitted.
* twoelk: takes a glance at the forums and notices the maintenance timeframe has changed
Sublayer plank: huh?
FriendlyPerson[m: > * <@twoelk:libera.chat> takes a glance at the forums and notices the maintenance timeframe has changed
FriendlyPerson[m: What are you even talking about? I reloaded it and it's still state the time started and that it expected to PROBABLY ake 1 to 3 hours. Key word PROBABLY meaning it's not an "promised" time frame but merely an reference point.
Sublayer plank: it has always said 1 to 3 hours ever since celeron55 edited it to specify that the forums are moving to another server
celeron55: just a moment
* twoelk: thought he remembered it was less when his first effort to save his post produced a maintenance page
FriendlyPerson[m: > * <@twoelk:libera.chat> thought he remembered it was less when his first effort to save his post produced a maintenance page
FriendlyPerson[m: It probably wasn't there or IF it was changed to a latter time frames then there were legit issues. Migrations can go wrong and fast especially if your moving from one network to another. Or other complicated migration tasks.
* twoelk: is still holding that edited page in limbo to see if it executes correctly once mainenance is finished
twoelk: not complaining just observing and drinking some coffee and doing work and coming back, hitting the refresh button, making more coffee and so forth
celeron55: the forum is now online on the new machine
twoelk: cool
* twoelk: has another look at the evprevia
twoelk: yay
twoelk: hm, hit the submit button on the pre-mainenance edited page and it uploaded without complaining, didn't expect that to work so seamingless
FriendlyPerson[m: <celeron55> "the forum is now online on the..." <- Awesome just noticed better responsiveness so hopefully the forums will be more stable for me. As I am mineminer there.
Jonathon: your mineminer? interesting
FriendlyPerson[m: Yup and nice to see the Discord bridged here too. Since I prefer Matrix interface better than theirs.
FriendlyPerson[m: So I only use it for the one person and my VPS host.
Jonathon: im the exact opposite, preferring discord interface to matrix
Jonathon: that said, matrix's isnt that bad aside from spaces which are in the 1800s compared to discord
FriendlyPerson[m: hehe that's interesting, I like Matrix (Element) since it's easier for me to read as a deaf and blind person. I feels like Discord is just not that friendly.
FriendlyPerson[m: MTDiscord: Watcha you mean? I feels like Discord is turning into a Social Media platform than a chat platform.
Jonathon: interesting, how does reading online work when deaf and blind if you dont mind me asking?
twoelk: ok, that got me interested. how does that work
FriendlyPerson[m: MTDiscord: Here is my post on that actually, would be easier to check that out than to wall the text here https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=397824#p397824
twoelk: some brail exposing monitory thingy?
FriendlyPerson[m: twoelk: Read my last reply please.
twoelk: just copied the link to browser
FriendlyPerson[m: alrighty it should pull to the post in question.
Jonathon: oh, so your not fully blind i take it?
FriendlyPerson[m: Yes but I am still legally obviously
Jonathon: ah ok, that makes sense
FriendlyPerson[m: Aww thanks you for caring to be of understanding of me. ❤️
GNUHacker: hi #minetest
GNUHacker: I want port some minecraft mods to minetest, maybe Ill begin with rustic mod idk
FriendlyPerson[m: GNUHacker: Heya there. :)
FriendlyPerson[m: GNUHacker: That's interesting I love how the Drawers mod gotten over to Minetest. It's helps out my spawn on my DeafBlind Minetest Gaming server.
GNUHacker: mineclone is perfect mod base
Jonathon: how about no
twoelk: make sure to check out consider all assets licenses or make new ones media
GNUHacker: some minecraft mods has been ported to minetest but to mtg, mineclone is WIP, but is a better mod base
GNUHacker: many minecraft mods are Free Software with Free assets
twoelk: many but not all
specing: I'm against blindly 1:1 copying features from proprietary games. It reinforces the belief that libre gaming is nothing but copies/clones of "real games"
twoelk: often the code is opensource while some textures are more restricted
FriendlyPerson[m: GNUHacker: Yes but doesn't means you can take/"borrows" them. assests often have other licenses than the code base which ARE often MIT/GPL variants.
GNUHacker: some free software mods examples: rustic, ice and fire, opencomputers
FriendlyPerson[m: twoelk: Exactly
FriendlyPerson[m: specing: Indeed even Drawers in this game is distintly difference from he Minecraft "version". And i likes it that way. 🙂
GNUHacker: opencomputer minecraft mod is a great mod to port, is free software under MIT license and have media under CC0 license, also have LUA code to manage the "openOS" computer system
twoelk: reusing good ideas from other games is ok in my opinion  but mileage of others may vary
twoelk: I don't think though that every aspect of mc is worth copying
FriendlyPerson[m: twoelk: Exactly
* twoelk: wonders where is old efforts of porting some rockraider ideas to mt got lost
twoelk: uhm his not is
FriendlyPerson[m: Does anybody in here is able to help me understand if there a way to shutter this up "<ACTION> 2021-08-03 15:44:05: [Server] DBGamer takes mobs:hairball from chest
FriendlyPerson[m: at (-836,20,819)". I know this is from the Pipeworks mod but the modder (I can't remember how to spell her name sorry) said there's nothing she can do about it as per knowledge. Aside from of course shutting ACTION entirely by upping the log sensitively. Since I still want to talk to my players and see them logs into the server.
sfan5: if you're watching the log interactively you could do e.g. (assuming Linux): tail -f debug.txt | grep -v --line-buf '\[Server\] .* takes .* from chest at .*$'
sfan5: that would simply not display such messages
sfan5: or actually if you don't care abotu chest you could comment that code in MTG out entirely
sfan5: about chests*
FriendlyPerson[m: sfan5: so you mean on LN 227 to LN 228 in chests.lua correct? This is what's there... minetest.log("action", player:get_player_name() ..
FriendlyPerson[m: " moves stuff in chest at " .. minetest.pos_to_string(pos))
sfan5: yep
FriendlyPerson[m: Remove that and it should stops the loggings?
FriendlyPerson[m: Got ya!
FriendlyPerson[m: <sfan5> "yep" <- ACTUALLY it was a bit more involved since there were take and put references but being how easily "read able" LUA coding is it wasn't that difficult for me to resolve. It's was just a bit beyond that point (in the 22x area I believe).
* FriendlyPerson[m: posted a file: (10KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jLiVzHBJQgEUJbxiywNvEpXy/chests.lua >
FriendlyPerson[m: That's what I ended up with to cease the loggings as it been said.
beanzilla: What is the itemstring for mineclone2's air (I.E. "default:air" for MTG)
rubenwardy: air is in the engine, not MTG or MC2
rubenwardy: it's "air" in both cases
beanzilla: Ah, ok so in this case the itemstring would just be "air"? Since it's the engine making it?
Sublayer plank: yeah, it's just "air"
beanzilla: Okay, thank you for the help, now back to breaking things in my mod... (err, fixing things. :) )
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: OpenAL: Free buffers on quit 134a3728d https://git.io/JBjid (152021-08-03T18:29:55Z)
GNUHacker: opencomputer minecraft mod is a great mod to port, is free software under MIT license and have media under CC0 license, also have LUA code to manage the "OpenOS" computer system, Ill try port this mod to mineclone, Ill begin making the computer boxes nodes, maybe Ill need use digilines depend, idk
celeron55: devwiki moved to the other host now, also updated to almost the newest mediawiki version
celeron55: there's some work to do there due to the upgrade, it was about a bazillion years worth of skipped versions
celeron55: meaning, it's not 100% compatible with the content
FriendlyPerson[m: <celeron55> "meaning, it's not 100% compatibl..." <- This is why updating regularly is hence important. Now of days thanks to automatic updates for most server sided and applicaitons' stuffs this came a long way. Not perfect but that's what backing up is for.
celeron55: it would have broken anyway at some point
celeron55: there's no automatic upgrade method for mediawiki anyway, what are you even talking about
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: Hence I said "most" not all applications and server sided.
Sublayer plank: mediawiki is a bit of an outliar, it doesn't have a web-based administration panel either by default
celeron55: i like mediawiki, it's simple and robust
celeron55: they never bloated it up into a silly unmanageable unrepairable balloon like many projects do
FriendlyPerson[m: celeron55: Sure indeed frustrating when a project does go crazy off tangent. Yesterday's Discord updates made it seems like a Social Media platform than what's it's original purposes were to talk. Now they got a laundry list of "features" on top of that which in my opinion doesn't benefits that. This is also why I like Matrix better as well. It's largely sticks to the points.
GreenXenith: Literally no one asked for the Discord threads feature. It's not useful. Fortunately, it can be disabled server-side.
FriendlyPerson[m: EXACTLY! Nor the stickers, profiles ships, etc.
GreenXenith: I dont really care about the profile stuff, its all cosmetic anyway
rubenwardy: there's a mediawiki docker image, not sure if it supports autoupdating
rubenwardy: if they had an upgrade script, updating would be `git pull && ./utils/migrate-db.sh` or whatever
FriendlyPerson[m: MTDiscord: Sure it's doesn't "bugs" anybody but to me it's becoming to akin to Facebook than a Instant Messaging chatting platform...
rubenwardy: I disagree, but also so?
FriendlyPerson[m: I feels at the very least it's wasting resources to some extent. For example instead of working on all of that what about making 2FA accept other forms like Hardware Authentications, SMSes, etc?
GreenXenith: It already has SMS?
FriendlyPerson[m: So it's become more accessible to more people?
rubenwardy: SMS 2fa isn't secure
FriendlyPerson[m: MTDiscord: It's does? Not requiring Googleauth/Authy?
GreenXenith: Yes, it has SMS. Also FYI, MTDiscord is the bridge. The name after it is the Discord user speaking.
rubenwardy: TOTP is the protocol that GAuth and Authy use
rubenwardy: it's an open protocol - which is why there are so many apps for it
rubenwardy: there are even FF/Chrome extensions
FriendlyPerson[m: MTDiscord: I will have to check this out really because when I was "FriendlyPerson" on there it was be flagging as a "compromised" account so I wanna 2FA as soon as I reliably do so. If it just a phone # and a single SMS now that's would works wonder for me.
FriendlyPerson[m: Also understood thanks for you for reassuring me that Green. :)
GreenXenith: 👍
FriendlyPerson[m: I am sorry GreenXenith but I am not seeing that config optoin on the Discord web client. I click "activate 2 Factor" or whatever that button is and it's says you can auth with either Google or Authy and for you enter the QR then enter the 6 digits.
GNUHacker: how can I get a placed node param2?
GreenXenith: FriendlyPerson: You need to enable regular 2FA before you can enable SMS I guess
GNUHacker: I tryed core.get_node_at(pos).param2 but nope
GreenXenith: And as rubenwardy said, TOTP is an open protocol so you dont have to use Google or Authy
GreenXenith: GNUHacker: core.get_node(pos).param2
GreenXenith: or minetest.get_node
GNUHacker: I also try node:get_param2_data() but return nil
FriendlyPerson[m: Ah I see well that wouldn't work for me since I don't even own a Smartphone and you are correct and I tried TOTP Linux clients and they refuse to work with Discord. I think it might because Discord REQUIRES you to own a physical smart device. Because I configured them with the Discord presets.
GreenXenith: Doesnt Google Auth have a web client?
GreenXenith: Ah, there is a chrome extension
GreenXenith: FriendlyPerson: Like Rubenwardy said, you can get FireFox or Chrome extensions for TOTP
FriendlyPerson[m: And you think Discord won't mind it?
GreenXenith: Authy also has a Linux client
GNUHacker: GreenXenith: thanks!
GreenXenith: I dont think Discord cares what you use as long as it gets a valid code
FriendlyPerson[m: If you say so, I am still at a loss on why my past attempts on my old account didn't do jacks. But I guess I will try an extension now.
GreenXenith: Authy has a snap https://snapcraft.io/authy
FriendlyPerson[m: Correct that one of the htings I tried.
rubenwardy: Discord won't be able to tell
Pexin: Every part of this conversation is horrifying
FriendlyPerson[m: I choose the Discord preset, enter my Discord username and tag and the code instead of the QR and that client did nothing after I enter that.
Platekoala[m]: <FriendlyPerson[m> "Ah I see well that wouldn't work" <- hm?
Platekoala[m]: i use aegis, it works fine
Platekoala[m]: give a hard rejection to authy
GreenXenith: FriendlyPerson: I just used https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/auth-helper/ with web Discord and it worked perfectly
FriendlyPerson[m: I'm chrome based and just tried GAuth and it retricts me to a site so I removed it https://chrome.google.com/webstore/search/totp%20authenticator and I can't see anything else that relevant and doesn't relies on a phone.
GreenXenith: ill try it on chrome, give me a bit
FriendlyPerson[m: Alrighty let me know if you find anything useful for that.
FriendlyPerson[m: <Pexin> "Every part of this conversation..." <- I know right? BUT... it's where my VPS host is that worth being with. Unless they provide other reliable support options I am stuck "Discording" them. And I actually use their support cause I opted for their Sysadmin package just in case I need the extra hands.
GreenXenith: FriendlyPerson: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/authenticator/bhghoamapcdpbohphigoooaddinpkbai?hl=en this is the same extension I use fore FireFox but for chrome. Works perfectly as well.
GreenXenith: for*
sfan5: !tell erlehmann https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11511
MinetestBot: sfan5: I'll pass that on when erlehmann is around
erlehmann: thx sfan5
MinetestBot: erlehmann: Aug-03 21:23 UTC <sfan5> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11511
FriendlyPerson[m: Awesome thank you very much GreenXith for doing all of this for me. Much appreciate your dedication to helping me with my frustrations with the platform. ❤️
GreenXenith: No problem, glad it works for ya 👍
erlehmann: sfan5, i suggest to ask anon5 to review the boundaries
erlehmann: sfan5, he may have some more ideas
sfan5: more ideas for things to check?
erlehmann: sfan5, yes, more boundaries that he found maybe
erlehmann: where the code goes brrrrrrrr crash
erlehmann: i mean he has this proxy for minetest protocol
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04rubenwardy -> 03minetest/minetest: ContentDB: Add support for package aliases / renaming (#11484) 13bee50ca https://git.io/JBFoo (152021-08-02T19:05:10Z)
Pexin: .seen hlqkj
sfan5: !seen hlqkj
MinetestBot: sfan5: hlqkj was last seen at 2021-07-14 15:35:20 UTC on #minetest
Pexin: not the bot I'm accustomed to, thank  :]
Calinou: happy 10th birthday, Minetest 0.2_20110731! Jungles and papyrus in Minetest are now 10 years old.
Calinou: it's been 10 years since I played Minetest too, I first played it on 2011-07-06
Jordach: giant_cowboy_screaming.mp3
celeron55: that's some of the first (L)GPL contributed content
celeron55: papyrus that is
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Update IrrlichtMt-related stuff in README 130257e71 https://git.io/JB6yd (152021-07-31T11:26:17Z)
AristotIe: is there a way to ask a minetest server if it has any players online from it's own command line?
specing: ...huh?
specing: you can wget the server list, it lists all connected players
Kimapr: but what if the server is NOT on the server list?
AristotIe: hmm
sfan5: if you have the ncurses console run /status
sfan5: if not then you can't
AristotIe: ok, good to know, I'm assuming that I can probably find a way to make a mod that does that, but I wanted to make sure that there wasn't an integrated feature that did that
Kimapr: doesn't bash use ncurses?
Kimapr: and most people have bash installed
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Mods: Combine mod loading checks and deprection logging (#11503) 1332cb9d0 https://git.io/JBPW7 (152021-07-31T17:54:52Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix /emergeblocks crashing in debug builds (#11461) 13e7cd4cf https://git.io/JBPW5 (152021-07-31T17:54:40Z)
jordan4ibanez: erlehmann, did you ever solve that problem?
jordan4ibanez: I think it was a problem? Or was it a design choice question
jordan4ibanez: I wonder if the string too long thing is due to strings using shorts
jordan4ibanez: Why does set_pos and move_to not adjust your camera in a local server, but when you join a server it suddenly makes your camera flip out in the latest 5.5.0 build?
sfan5: does it?
jordan4ibanez: Yeah
jordan4ibanez: I can do a minor bug report real quick
sfan5: maybe it's yet another high fps bug
jordan4ibanez: I have no idea, because it only happens on servers that aren't local
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04hecktest -> 03minetest/minetest: Add a simple PNG image encoder with Lua API (#11485) 1380d12db https://git.io/JB8tE (152021-07-29T03:10:10Z)
erlehmann: hey sfan5 why did you add “possible close” to https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10981 ?
erlehmann: i mean i pretty much have a way to reproduce this
rubenwardy: Please share the way
erlehmann: rubenwardy here https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/issues/129#issue-3091
erlehmann: rubenwardy any idea if i can create such an entity with devtest?
erlehmann: > I could reproduce the crash by creating an item with more than 0xFFFF bytes of metadata, dropping it, then moving away. As soon as the map block gets unloaded, the server crashes
erlehmann: and yes, dropping random shulkers can trigger this
sfan5: erlehmann: because a more specific issue should be created to track that bug
erlehmann: sfan5 well you could have commented that there
erlehmann: i was just confused
erlehmann: thank you
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04 -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove unsupported extensions from list in tile.cpp 1328c98f9 https://git.io/JBE7Q (152021-07-29T19:47:08Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04hecktest -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove unsupported formats from the media enumerator 131e2b638 https://git.io/JBuvd (152021-07-29T20:42:47Z)
GNUHacker: if I make a formspec like: "listring[current_player;inventory2]" give me my own inventory2. How can I get another player inventory2? some like a "listring[another_player;inventory2]" . Pls help
GNUHacker: inventory2 is an example
erlehmann: is it possible to make the inventory of a node secret so it is only sent to the client when interacting with the node?
erlehmann: i am asking because some ppl have a ton of chests with cursed items
erlehmann: and the general area becomes pretty laggy
sfan5: nope
sfan5: the engine could probably seamlessly do this without needing any client modifications
erlehmann: last time someone did this it was fleck
erlehmann: and it broke both local map saving and client prediction
erlehmann: for inventories
erlehmann: like prediction if stuff stacks
erlehmann: sfan5 are you aware of anything that limits mapblock size?
sfan5: no
sfan5: this is the PR you mean btw #11014
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11014 -- Send only relevant ItemStack meta fields to Client by EliasFleckenstein03
erlehmann: sfan5 what if i make a private meta with the inventory string and on right click i copy the private meta into the inventory and when the formspec gets closed i copy it back to the private meta?
erlehmann: i bet that solution implies some kind of dupe lol
sfan5: what's the point of that question
sfan5: if you implement the workaround it'd get you what you want
sfan5: I guess that's a "yes"
erlehmann: you mean that thing could work?
sfan5: yes
erlehmann: i was not sure if it would work
erlehmann: hmmm
erlehmann: lots of state management for two people having chests open hehe
erlehmann: or technically, N people having chests open
sfan5: you have to be very careful about multiple players opening a chest but other than that it's not that bad of an idea
erlehmann: “not that bad of an idea” is basically all of my contributions lol
erlehmann: “not bad”, but not as praise, but as “we'll let it slide”
erlehmann: sfan5, but what about hoppers
sfan5: you need to make them handle it
sfan5: if you don't have any external mods that can work
erlehmann: sfan5 is the “if #data > 65530 then -- would crash the engine” an educated guess or an actual hard limit?
sfan5: I explain that last time
erlehmann: sfan5 yeah the engine stores some other stuff i know. i will just use the value, i trust you to get it more right than me.
sfan5: is not exact to clarify
sfan5: it's*
erlehmann: ok
erlehmann: thx sfan5 you helped a lot
Guest62: hello
Krock: hi guest
jordan4ibanez: sfan5, when you say "Mind downloading a 5.5.0-dev build to test?" do you mean just a latest build?
sfan5: sure
jordan4ibanez: I did that in that video I posted, it's still broken
jordan4ibanez: In fact, it's slightly worse
sfan5: ah sorry I didn't watch that far
jordan4ibanez: All good
sfan5: can you give me a ZIP of the test game?
jordan4ibanez: https://github.com/jordan4ibanez/bug_showcase
sfan5: wait okay so the bug is not "set_physics_override doesn't do anything", correct?
jordan4ibanez: The bug is set_physics_override({sneak = false}) not only doesn't disable sneaking, it allows you to slow down like you're sneaking, clips on random collision geometry/nothing at all, completely breaks movement, sometimes clips into nodes
erlehmann: hey jordan4ibanez can you maybe explain why your item pick up thing is superiour and what it actually yoes on a conceptual level? cora and me have not managed to figure it out completely.
erlehmann: yoes → does
sfan5: "allows you to slow down like you're sneaking" intended as far as I'm aware, could be documented better probably
jordan4ibanez: It's simple, when you pick up an item, it instantly collects, the item moving towards you and disappearing is a complete visual compliment of that
erlehmann: wait what
erlehmann: jordan4ibanez so do you have any idea why the previous implementation did this thing where an item danced between two players or a player further away could pickup the thing?
jordan4ibanez: allows you to slow down like you're sneaking, when I see the settings "sneak = false", I would assume that setting this to false would turn the sneak key from an engine implementation of slowing a player down and not letting them fall off the sides of nodes, into a key input that can be utilized by games to implement in game mechanics
sfan5: you can do that you just have to set sneak speed identical to walk speed
sfan5: anyway maybe someone else disagrees that it's a feature
sfan5: time to reproduce this ynway
sfan5: +a
jordan4ibanez: How does one set the sneak speed?
Krock: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L1513-L1515
sfan5: movement_speed_crouch, minetest.conf
Krock: ninja'd
sfan5: this is bad
sfan5: I believe there's a PR that exposes this to set_physics_override
jordan4ibanez: erlehmann, well I would assume it's because it just runs through objects in area and the first player in that ordered array becomes the solution to X in X < null, where null should be replaced with the closest distance using Y = vector.distance(pos, X)
jordan4ibanez: Well that conf is pretty cool, but, how do I change it in a game?
sfan5: you can provide a default value via game.conf
jordan4ibanez: This will hopefully affect any player that joins the server?
sfan5: it's read and sent by the server yet
sfan5: just no Lua API ... yet
jordan4ibanez: Oh very nice, thank you
sfan5: I don't notice anything out of the ordinary in bug_showcase
sfan5: time to download a windows build
sfan5: nope fine there too
sfan5: must be the high fps like krock said
jordan4ibanez: I have a 144 hz monitor, try it without vsync
sfan5: can't seem to disable that here
Krock: __GL_SYNC_TO_VBLANK=0 vblank_mode=0  minetest
Krock: anyway
Krock: it's a duplicate issue, at least in that regard
jordan4ibanez: A duplicate to what?
Krock: see issue tracker
sfan5: oh nvm there's max_fps too
Krock: even with max_fps and vsync off, the driver might still force vsync
sfan5: seems so
jordan4ibanez: If you are on AMD you must do vblank_mode=0 minetest
jordan4ibanez: IIRC I might be remembering wrong
jordan4ibanez: For Linux
sfan5: nvidia unfortunately
jordan4ibanez: Apparently vblank_mode=0 also works for nouveau
jordan4ibanez: You can also try export __GL_SYNC_TO_VBLANK=0
jordan4ibanez: For the proprietary ones
sfan5: eh i'll reboot into windows
sfan5: the PR i was thinking about btw #11465
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11465 -- New physics overrides by Wuzzy2
sfan5: however it doesn't actually add the crouch spee
sfan5: I can no longer see the position in debug info
sfan5: what nonsense is this
sfan5: I thought games didn't have to do anyhing special to enable this
sfan5: ah it was basic_debug
Krock: blame #9315
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9315 -- Require 'basic_debug' priv to view gameplay-relevant debug info (2nd try), require 'debug' priv to view wireframe by Wuzzy2
sfan5: ok so the collision bug definitely exists
sfan5: at the ~640 FPS I have
entuland: uh... you get 640fps?
sfan5: yes?
entuland: okay, guess I just have crappy rig then :P
sfan5: if you don't disable the default fps limit you won't get more than 60
sfan5: just btw
entuland: oh that may be it as well
entuland: not that it would make any difference with my 60Hz monitor anyways
erlehmann: sfan5, can i use your code here in mineclonia under GPLv3 or any later version? https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/pulls/131
sfan5: you can use it under any license you want
erlehmann: thx
TheInformer: Is minetest running on M1 Macs yet?
j45: @JorDACh ^
Jordach: yes
Jordach: and unfortunately broken by a recent contrib
TheInformer: ok so installing through brew would not work?
Jordach: brew will likely be massively broken right now
TheInformer: Oh ok
sfan5: brew installs the stable version by default anyway
sfan5: if you want to run it download one of Jordach's builds
TheInformer: on the forum?
sfan5: I guess so?
TheInformer: yeah i found it nevermind
TheInformer: does it have to run through rosetta?
sfan5: no
TheInformer: it just freezes if i dont
sfan5: shouldn't
sfan5: presumably it works for @Jordach
TheInformer: 2021-07-28 16:31:42: [Main]: INFO: signal_handler(): got SIGTERM, shutting down.
Jordach: what one did you use
Jordach: Universal requires Big Sur or later
TheInformer: minetest-5.5.0-dev-63fc728a8-BigSur-Universal-Lua.zip
TheInformer: im on big sur
Jordach: x64 JIT should run on any old mac
Jordach: may require latest Big Sur
TheInformer: I
TheInformer: I
TheInformer: crap
Jordach: if you're running 11.3 or under
TheInformer: I am on an M1 Mac mini
Jordach: you're gonna have a bad time
TheInformer: Oh ok, im on 11.2.2
Jordach: i can force cmake to build with older versions
Jordach: hold on
TheInformer: No, I can just update my mac, no problem
Jordach: and yes my x64 JIT build works fine on the 2013 MBAir running Catalina
Jordach: so i know the SDK works
Edgy1: sfan5 / others: is there something up with the serverlist? i'm getting lots of packet loss no matter where I ping it
Edgy1: some servers are having trouble announcing
Edgy1: packet loss ranging from 20 - 40% in canada, and 40 - 60 in finland
Edgy1: minetest works after increasing  curl_timeout
N_i_g_e_l: anyone know who looks after servers.minetest.net?
nyje: anybody else have a problem with the serverlist in the minetest client?
nyje: I'm getting an error
nyje: 2021-07-27 09:21:05: ERROR[AsyncWorker-0]: servers.minetest.net/list?proto_version_min=37&proto_version_max=39 not found (Timeout was reached) (response code 0)
Sublayer plank: sfan7 runs the server list
Sublayer plank: also the server list works for me, idk why you're getting errors
nyje: strange, Im on minetest 5.4.1 and get nothing in the in game server list except "loading"
nyje: and that error in the console
sfan5: Edgy1: haven't noticed anything but i'll check
sfan5: looks like it's fine right now
sfan5: but the status page of the host says there was some packet loss between 2am and 4am, been fixed
nyje: nice that 5.4.1 can be compiled for linux so simply, I guess that will break on the next version when the build will be against the irrlicht-MT fork again..
sfan5: don't worry we've made sure that's super easy too
nyje: I cant figure out how to build against the irrlicht-MT fork
nyje: It gets complicated, because my system tries to use the debian irrlicht, hopefully someone more persistant than me will post detailed build instructions for ubuntu/mint/debian based OS's when the next version lands ;-)
sfan5: you can git clone the repo into <minetest folder>/lib/irrlichtmt and it'll pick it up and compile it alongside automatically
nyje: I tried that, and cmake just cheerfully ignored it and tried to use the packaged irrlicht ;-(
sfan5: try deleting CMakeCache.txt first
nyje: I'll try again when the next version drops, the 'one line ubuntu build script' is working fine for 5.4.1 for now ;-)
nyje: I'm just worried about compiling the next version on my remote headless debian VPS systems where I have my servers ;-)
sfan5: that shouldn't get any harder
sfan5: we'll see when 5.5 is done
nyje: tes indeedy ;-)
nyje: *yes
nyje: thanks for the hints sfan5 anyhoo 8o)
ilomiglio: Hi, i set server_announce as true, but i still not seeing anything on minetest public test listing
ilomiglio: i'm on a vps
sfan5: IP and port? configured the firewall? do you use a domain? ipv6?
ilomiglio: domain set, i can play if i give the correct url but sometimes it goes in timeout
ilomiglio: sfan5, 999labs.ovh:30000, firewall opened 22 tcp, 10000 udp and 30000 udp, domain 999labs.ovh configured with A to the vps ip, using ipv4
sfan5: !up 999labs.ovh 30000
MinetestBot: 999labs.ovh:30000 is up (14ms) (IPv4)
sfan5: well I guess it works
sfan5: well I guess it works
sfan5: oops
sfan5: !up 999labs.ovh 30000
MinetestBot: 999labs.ovh:30000 is up (14ms) (IPv4)
sfan5: !up 999labs.ovh 30000
MinetestBot: 999labs.ovh:30000 is up (14ms) (IPv4)
sfan5: hmm you have two IPs on the domain
sfan5: !up 193.70.91.146
MinetestBot: 193.70.91.146:30000 is up (14ms)
sfan5: !up 213.186.33.5
MinetestBot: 213.186.33.5:30000 seems to be down
sfan5: the second one doesn't work, there's your issue
ilomiglio: what is 213 ip?
ilomiglio: lemme check, you said i have 2 ips
sfan5: I wouldn't know, it's set on your domain: https://dns.google/query?name=999labs.ovh
Warr1024: Yeah, if you have 2 IP addresses then each user trying to reach the thing will get a random-ish IP out of those 2, and that includes the server list.
Warr1024: So your server is half-working and half not and so the server list will always be half wrong.
hecks: the server is in a state of superposition until someone tries to connect to it...
luizsab: hi everyone. Is there any way to move a gold loaded chest (technic mod)?
ilomiglio: it may be the dns, i look at it as ec
ilomiglio: a sec
luizsab: the wrench just works with simple chest
ilomiglio: nice tool of google dns
ilomiglio: found the IPs in the dns zone
ilomiglio: ok, now i have a single A record
ilomiglio: server restarted
sfan5: if you wait a bit for dns to update it should start working automatically
ilomiglio: also, i found a bug in give_initial_tool
ilomiglio: if you set the string from minetest.conf it ignores the first item in the list
ilomiglio: sfan, i directly rebooted the vps
ilomiglio: i know what that ip is, it's the webmail of ovh
ilomiglio: all ok now, thank you sfan5
luizsab: hi everyone. Sorry by ask again, but Is there any way to move a gold loaded chest (technic mod)?
ilomiglio: locked chest?
ilomiglio: i use a wrench on enyek-something server but it just sort the chest inventory
luizsab: no it isnt locked
luizsab: there is a wrench but it just work with simple chest
ilomiglio: if i got it, the wrench is used for moving the chest elsewhere or for sorting the chest inventory? i'm accustomed to a different technic mod
luizsab: wrench move the simple chest. Gold chest has a inner command to sort
luizsab: gold chest is on technic mod
ilomiglio: To pickup a node simply right click on it. If the node contains a formspec,
ilomiglio: you will need to shift+right click instead.
Benrob0329: New (short) video premiering in ~5 minutes: https://youtu.be/B3jOmeOPEtI
luizsab: ilomiglio thank you!!! It's works, I was flying hahahaha
ilomiglio: talking about give_initial_stuff
ilomiglio: if i use a list without a heading comma, i lose the first item
ilomiglio: is there a way to get the number of registered player in the sqlite database from inside the mod? e.g. not using sqlite3 cmd
ilomiglio: if someone needs it, it's "select count(*) from auth"
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Improve documentation of tools (#11128) 13216728c https://git.io/J4NVK (152021-07-27T17:09:14Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04rubenwardy -> 03minetest/minetest: ContentDB: Add reason to downloads (#10876) 139c145ba https://git.io/J4NVX (152021-07-27T17:08:49Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Add bold, italic and monospace font styling for HUD text elements (#1… 136e8aebf https://git.io/J4NKA (152021-07-27T17:11:46Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04JosiahWI -> 03minetest/minetest: Take advantage of IrrlichtMt CMake target (#11287) 13cf13691 https://git.io/J4NKh (152021-07-27T17:11:27Z)
Out`Of`Control: Hi, anyone has access to servers.minetest.net, my minetest server disappear from server list. Nothing has been changed, suddenly server disappear. I  Try everything, did not help.
Warr1024: hostname:port?
Out`Of`Control: rbose.org:30000
Warr1024: I can't find any evidence that that domain exists.
Warr1024: Did your domain just expire or something?
Out`Of`Control: Thats odd as i can connect and ssh to it
Warr1024: you must have it cached
Out`Of`Control: Registry Expiry Date: 2028-02-19T21:51:59Z
Warr1024: best check with your DNS provider and make sure something weird isn't going on...
Out`Of`Control: I replace address with IP
Out`Of`Control: 45.132.245.172
Warr1024: I tried it on my own network, from my VPS, from a random "DNS lookup tool" website, and all say rbose.org does not exist.
Warr1024: I'm seeing NS records and such for rbose.org, i.e. implying domain authority, I guess, but not getting an A records that point to an actual host or anything.
Warr1024: The PTR reverse record for your IP back to rbose.org works
Out`Of`Control: I have to look & edit DNS settings?
Warr1024: Either that, or check to see if they're having an outage or other issue
Guest8270: Warr1024 thanks
sfan5: !up rbose.org 30000
MinetestBot: rbose.org:30000 seems to be down (host did not resolve)
sfan5: yeah that's consistent with what Warr1024 said
Out`Of`Control: sfan5: strange some can connect, other not.
Warr1024: I recently saw a hiccup where my VPS and my home network couldn't reach each other for like 5 minutes, and that almost never happens ... I wonder if there's an "internet weather" situation going on, like when people occasionally launch massive DDoS attacks against bits of internet infrastructure, or like that time when Azure accidentally DDoSed itself and took down a hunk of the internet...
Warr1024: https://xkcd.com/908/
erlehmann: ok i missed this so far, this is funny http://cheatdb.elidragon.com/packages/?type=mod
erlehmann: rubenwardy, are some of those mods that are rejected from contentdb for one reason or another?
erlehmann: or does it only superficially look similar?
Sublayer plank: well they all seem to be clientmods
erlehmann: hmm indeed
Warr1024: ContentDB is open source, anyone can run their own instance for any reason.  Mods that are ineligible for the official CDB is one obvious motivation for actually doing this, but anyone could for any reason they want.
erlehmann: so i guess you can not get clientmods with contentdb?
Out`Of`Control: !up rbose.org
MinetestBot: rbose.org:30000 seems to be down (host did not resolve)
Out`Of`Control: !up http://v2202103144741147811.powersrv.de/
MinetestBot: Out`Of`Control: invalid port
Sublayer plank: yeah. plus all those clientmods seem to be for... gaining an unfair advantage over others, maybe not something that would be suitable for regular contentdb
Out`Of`Control: !up http://v2202103144741147811.powersrv.de 30000
MinetestBot: ValueError: too many values to unpack (expected 2) (file "/home/sfan5/mtbot/modules/serverup.py", line 48, in serverup)
sfan5: (without the http)
Out`Of`Control: !up v2202103144741147811.powersrv.de 30000
MinetestBot: v2202103144741147811.powersrv.de:30000 is up (13ms) (IPv4)
erlehmann: an unfair advantage such as stripping color from chat ;)
erlehmann: !up 127.0.0.1 22
MinetestBot: 127.0.0.1:22 seems to be down
erlehmann: !up 127.0.0.1 80
Sublayer plank: just to be clear I'm not hating on hacked clients or cheats for anarchy servers where that is the norm, but it's just not something the official contentdb would want to promote
erlehmann: !up 127.0.0.1 23
MinetestBot: 127.0.0.1:23 seems to be down
erlehmann: !up 127.0.0.1 631
MinetestBot: 127.0.0.1:631 seems to be down
erlehmann: ^^
erlehmann: !up ::1 80
MinetestBot: [::1]:80 seems to be down
erlehmann: hehe
sfan5: these clientmods do not run on an unmodified engine either, that's another simple reason it wouldn't be on the contentdb
erlehmann: ah
erlehmann: right
erlehmann: the minetest engine is lacking all kinds of useful functions that they use
Sublayer plank: well yeah there's clientmods that do more benign stuff but cheatdb is pretty clear in what type of clientmods they want
erlehmann: sfan i think echest is possible on vanilla though
erlehmann: as is chat ignore
Sublayer plank: aren't clientmods already in the vanilla minetest engine?
Sublayer plank: or does dragonfire extend the clientmod API to add more stuff
sfan5: latter
Warr1024: I think if the mods would work on an unmodified MT, then they would be acceptable on CDB, even if their proposed application is questionably dishonest.  There are mods like the Troll mod on CDB, after all.
Out`Of`Control: how long it take to appear on that public list of servers?
sfan5: if the list can successfully connect to your server it's close to instant
Out`Of`Control: its not there
Out`Of`Control: Ok i see ~  ERROR[CurlFetch]: servers.minetest.net/announce not found (Timeout was reached) (response code 0)
erlehmann: > mods like the Troll mod
erlehmann: what does it do?
sfan5: Out`Of`Control: that appears when your server has trouble reaching the server list
Warr1024: https://content.minetest.net/packages/niwla23/troll/ <- adds a whole bunch of random commands for admins to mess with players
Out`Of`Control: i can ping servers.minetest.net
Warr1024: heh, "very WIP" ... well shit, what isn't?
sfan5: do you have curl_timeout configured in your config?
Out`Of`Control: No i add it curl_timeout = 5000
Out`Of`Control: Wait
Out`Of`Control: sfan5: its now listed!
sfan5: you shouldn't need it but if it doesn't work you can try a high value like 30000
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: buildbot: Readd missing IrrlichtMt DLLs 132866918 https://git.io/J4x7g (152021-07-27T18:37:51Z)
Out`Of`Control: sfan5: thanks
Out`Of`Control: Thanks everyone for help!
Out`Of`Control: i have to clean up my config. Settings are not changed from 0.4.x
* rocky_fuchsian_4: < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/4941835d343eb3f8f7365612b641921c6e729d9f/message.txt >
rocky_fuchsian_4: Can I see a simple example for a mod that places a block? I’m not able to do this simple task.
rocky_fuchsian_4: With this code:
sfan5: you're approaching several things wrong
sfan5: first, nodes need to be registered right in the top level of your mod, not inside any callback (that includes register_on_mods_loaded)
sfan5: you're emerging an empty area from 0,0,0 to 0,0,0
rocky_fuchsian_4: https://plik.artemislena.eu/file/VRWPSKvQVFzliGQI/oiK5HDBmIpmhgDTT/init.lua
sfan5: and you're not passing a callback function but calling place_node *before* emerge_area
rocky_fuchsian_4: <sfan5 "first, nodes need to be register"> Oh okay. Let me see if that helps.
sfan5: and lastly the output from minetest.debug is not typically visible, try print() instead
rocky_fuchsian_4: <sfan5 "and you're not passing a callbac"> Do I need to emerge an area before I place blocks there?
sfan5: if you want to place it at a specific fixed location without a player nearby, yes
sfan5: in other cases no
rocky_fuchsian_4: sfan5: Any idea why this:
rocky_fuchsian_4: https://plik.artemislena.eu/file/fUudg2Zm3bHgdyRm/019eo1Lzm9bwAkrC/init.lua
rocky_fuchsian_4: Does not work?
sfan5: set_pos will not instantly load the blocks so place_node won't do anything
sfan5: it'd be much easier if you tried to place a node where the player already is
rocky_fuchsian_4: Hmm. With:
rocky_fuchsian_4: player:set_pos(vector.new(0, 10, 0));
rocky_fuchsian_4: minetest.place_node(vector.new(0, 10, 0), {name="frog:janet"});
rocky_fuchsian_4: It doesn’t seem to work either
sfan5: "where the player already is" is supposed to mean that you don't teleport them
rocky_fuchsian_4: Ohh okay.
sfan5: drop the set_pos and e.g. minetest.place_node(vector.add(player:get_pos(), vector.new(0, 2, 0)), {name="frog:janet"})
rocky_fuchsian_4: That doesn’t appear to do anything nor does it result in an error.
sfan5: are you testing it in an new world?
rocky_fuchsian_4: I test each revision in a new world, yes.
sfan5: hm true
sfan5: it appears since the game teleports the player to his spawnpoint you have to add a small delay, this works http://sprunge.us/4tE6Kt
Ilomiglio: Good evening, awk is so sweet
Ilomiglio: turns out i could even not use it, just a strict query
erlehmann: DID YOU KNOW: minetest crashes if entities have too much meta
erlehmann: on unloading the map block
erlehmann: have fun with this info, i am building a fix into mineclonia
sfan5: too much is probably more than 64KB, right?
erlehmann: more than serializeString16 can handle
erlehmann: it should not crash!
sfan5: would silently deleting the entity be better?
erlehmann: no, delete it with an error message
sfan5: that's what I meant
sfan5: it's silent to the game
erlehmann: i do not want to argue about the meaning of “silently” rn ;)
erlehmann: but yeah
erlehmann: sfan5 here https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/issues/129
erlehmann: this is the bug
erlehmann: sfan5, shulkers are chests that can contain other items. that way you can easily have items that are representable in chests and inventories of players, but not as serialized entities.
erlehmann: granted, this happens here because of the “drop items as entities” mod in mineclonia / mineclone2 / mineclone5
erlehmann: but something like this should not crash the game IMO
erlehmann: if you forceenchant a fishing rod with efficiency in any of the mcl games it will hve 127kb of useless metadata last i checked hehe
erlehmann: i.e. if you drop it and walk away, i think it should crash the game
erlehmann: sfan5 is there maybe an engine bug open on this already?
sfan5: not to my knowledge
sfan5: but I am not all knowing
sfan5: so search for one? :D
erlehmann: well i found two
erlehmann: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8977
erlehmann: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10981
erlehmann: the latter one
erlehmann: > String too long for serializeString(16) caused by mod #10981
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10981 -- String too long for serializeString(16) caused by mod
sfan5: that's unfortunately way too general
sfan5: it's possibly the exact bug you mean though
erlehmann: well the mineclonia bug is very specific
erlehmann: and has a way to reproudce it
erlehmann: so if you could link those two i'd be thankful
sfan5: i'll consider it and perhaps open a new one
erlehmann: oh btw it is important that if this emits a bug visible in-game
erlehmann: i mean an error msg
erlehmann: that error message does not contain coords
erlehmann: otherwise evil people come and TNT my illegal items
erlehmann: i wonder which server other than clamity and kay27 server are so damn cursed
sfan5: error messages are only printed to the server console/debug.txt
erlehmann: i found a bedrock construction on kay27 server and he says he has no idea how it got there lol
sfan5: showing error messages ingame is an SP-only feature
erlehmann: but i like cursed
erlehmann: good
erlehmann: :)
erlehmann: ah!
erlehmann: thx
erlehmann: sfan5, are long itemstrings always "a:b 1 2 […]", i.e. 4 parts divided by spaces?
erlehmann: bc my fix in mineclonia will be to cut off the last part
sfan5: yes no perhaps
sfan5: if you have an ItemStack just clear the meta instead?
erlehmann: wdym
sfan5: like instead of operating on some string use stack:get_meta():from_table({})
sfan5: wrap that in local stack = ItemStack(s); ...; s = stack:to_string() if you haven't got one
erlehmann: uh
erlehmann: at the point where i am i do not have an itemstack
erlehmann: i can show you
erlehmann: sfan this is where it crashes https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/src/branch/master/mods/ENTITIES/mcl_item_entity/init.lua#L450
erlehmann: sfan5
erlehmann: sfan5 i do not see any other possibility to fix it and at that point i only have self.itemstring
erlehmann: if that is bigger or equl than 65375, the serialization fails
sfan5: http://sprunge.us/BCA8et?lua
erlehmann: sfan5, are you sure it would not crash on minetest.serialize?
sfan5: yes
erlehmann: why
erlehmann: also where does the 65530 come from
sfan5: despite naming similarities serializeString16 is called inside the engine sometime after you return the too-long data to it
sfan5: 65536 - some safety margin
erlehmann: oh ok
erlehmann: why safety margin lol
erlehmann: we need every byte!
erlehmann: but let me explore this!
erlehmann: thx
sfan5: entity staticdata includes some stuff from the engine to save orientation, hp
sfan5: so you do actually need some
sfan5: and it's likely larger than 6
sfan5: (the engine invisibly adds this, you never see it)
sfan5: or actually I'm not 100% sure if that counts toward the limit
erlehmann: sfan5, thx how do you want to be credited in the git history?
sfan5: say it was my idea or something
sfan5: doesn't really matter
erlehmann: no i mean for author
erlehmann: i need the info for git blame
sfan5: I assumed the commit author would be you
erlehmann: so future generations can hold you responsible for your lua crimes
erlehmann: i would be the committer
erlehmann: but i can not answer why it was written
sfan5: well if you absolutely want to
sfan5: sfan5 <sfan5@live.de>
erlehmann: thx
erlehmann: yes
sfan5: in the future some forum user will misunderstand this and claim I worked on mineclone
sfan5: I'm sure
erlehmann: sfan5, btw this is my solution https://mister-muffin.de/p/bDRG.txt
erlehmann: sfan5 too late, being in the git history basically ensures you will be in the contributors list lol
erlehmann: everyone will complain this is not EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT
erlehmann: recently i made a change to the tsm_railcorridors mod so that 1 in 1000 spawners is a pig spawner
erlehmann: rationale: you sometimes get pig spawners in that other game
erlehmann: and some ppl seriously say “oh but that is a bug”
erlehmann: well, if you do not remove a bug for like >10 years i am pretty sure we call that a feature
erlehmann: next up: bunnyhopping in quake is totally a bug ^^
sfan5: MT should have bunnyhopping
sfan5: ok well it does
sfan5: because what if someone wants to recreate quake in MT
sfan5: and someone totally should
erlehmann: <sfan5> because what if someone wants to recreate quake in MT
erlehmann: [[ jordach intensifies ]]
erlehmann: sfan5, so what is wrong with this actually? i mean it is wrong, but like, on what level? only the string manip? https://mister-muffin.de/p/bDRG.txt
sfan5: string manip is unclean
erlehmann: yes
erlehmann: absolutely haram
sfan5: also checking only the itemstring is error prone when you have other variables that contribute to length
sfan5: I don't expect it to be actually an issue since self.always_collect, age and all that stuff are just booleans or numbers
erlehmann: sfan5, can i get this as actual copyable text somewhere? http://sprunge.us/BCA8et?lua
erlehmann: there are line numbers in front
sfan5: just s/\?lua//
erlehmann: oh http://sprunge.us/BCA8et
erlehmann: thx
erlehmann: sfan5 the recursive call of self.get_staticdata looks funny
erlehmann: i just need an item with a very long name!
erlehmann: i will test your solution :)
erlehmann: thank you so much
sfan5: fundamentally it's the same issue as in your code
erlehmann: yes
sfan5: except I actually check the length of the serialized text
erlehmann: this code allows you to have cursed items
erlehmann: like written books without text
sfan5: spooky
erlehmann: enchanted items without enchantment
erlehmann: btw, you know any good weather mod?
erlehmann: mineclonia inherited one from mineclone2 that works like
erlehmann: “oh you are a minetest client? here is a particle for every raindrop”
Jonathon: Climate_api by testificate
erlehmann: which obv is a lagfest
erlehmann: ok i will look at it
erlehmann: thx
erlehmann: that's a cool weather mod
erlehmann: Jonathon, wow, only ~30 particle spammer packets per second instead of 800 to 1000 particle packets per second!
rocky_fuchsian_4: > it appears since the game teleports the player to his spawnpoint you have to add a small delay, this works http://sprunge.us/4tE6Kt
rocky_fuchsian_4: sfan5: This actually does not appear to work (as in it doesn’t do anything and no errors are reported).
Jonathon: erlehmann: if i recall correctly weather in mineclone2 is descended from a ancient mtg version, would be interesting to compare the two to see how much it has improved since
Extex: Ok so I want to be able to test if a player can see an entity, but have it support fov changes, any idea how I would go about doing so?
Warr1024: There's no good way.  You sort of have to assume some worst case.  If it's within like 30 degrees they almost surely can see it, but you can't be sure they don't up to 180 degrees.
Warr1024: Also you have to account for raycast imprecision, plus network latency.
Warr1024: I've had a weeping angels mod suggested to me on at least 2 separate occasions so I've had to consider this...
Xanabella: Dev-Test has one Example for every entitiy, if you see it it should go and for Multiplayer ... Host Server and ask somebody to join and look
Pexin: just use 180
Pexin: use 140, only a deranged lunatic would use that high
Swift110-mobile: hey all
Calinou: Minetest specifies FOV as a vertical FOV in minetest.conf, but horizontal FOV depends on your monitor's aspect ratio
Calinou: if you want to play it safe, you can use the default horizontal FOV for a 21:9 monitor: 119 degrees
Calinou: (https://themetalmuncher.github.io/fov-calc/)
Calinou: there's no way to know a client's monitor aspect ratio from the Lua API, so you can't guess their horizontal FOV that way either
Calinou: Minetest supports any aspect ratio, but I doubt anyone is playing it with a monitor wider than 21:9
freshreplicant[m: What is the default water_level setting for v7/Minetest?
ACRONIX: https://discord.gg/nNUq82e5
Sublayer plank: uhh
Sublayer plank: that icon's not minetest
ACRONIX: tu et français
ACRONIX: pour quoi tu à quiter
Jonathon: Freshreplicant, look at example.minetest.conf, i think it was one
freshreplicant[m: <MTDiscord "<Jonathon> Freshreplicant, look "> Thanks, yeah it seems it was 1. I guess a game/mod changed it somehow.
Warr1024: IIRC there are games that change it, and the engine is supposed to handle this properly but doesn't.  e.g. https://content.minetest.net/threads/639/
sfan5: that has been fixed already
sfan5: it was a regression that wasn't in 5.3
Warr1024: Interesting.  Does minetest.settings:set() also take effect only for the current world then, or does that one also still leak settings into minetest.conf?
sfan5: no, it's global
Warr1024: Right, but does it leak values back into minetest.conf and thus pollute settings cross-world?
sfan5: by "global" I mean "into minetest.conf"
Warr1024: Okay, is there already an existing bug report for that?
sfan5: there will be none because it's not a bug
Warr1024: Okay so how do I file a "design flaw" report then :-/
sfan5: is "mods can mess up the users config" the flaw?
sfan5: because mods do not lack a way to set mapgen settings per-world properly
Warr1024: That along with "mods are required to mess with config"
sfan5: they are not
Warr1024: Last time I checked, mapgen_settings only affect mapgen, so settings that are not related to mapgen need to be set via minetest.settings:set
sfan5: sure
Warr1024: Is it actually meaningful to set, say, time_speed as a mapgen setting, and will that only apply to the given world then?
sfan5: nope doesn't work
sfan5: but putting it in the games' minetest.conf does
Warr1024: Those are overridden by user config though, aren't they?
Warr1024: and games also can't prevent the engine from interpreting those directly, so they need to be set correctly in settings.
sfan5: if the user wants to break the game why prevent him from doing so?
Warr1024: Because as a game publisher I am responsible for providing the user with the correct experience under all reasonable circumstances, and because Minetest fosters a culture of adding salt to your food before tasting it.
sfan5: but is that a reasonable circumstance? most people won't even look at what time_speed is
Warr1024: hence why they will get config from somebody else and set it to 72 naively.  Somehow that has crept into my OWN settings on multiple occasions, probably due to mods that have no other way to change time speed.
Warr1024: In any event I as a modder/gamedev need the ability to make settings values that have no meaning other than breaking the game not set to values that break the game, and I should not have to be fighting against the engine while it's trying to provide users with every possible footgun and bypassing the game design stage entirely.
Warr1024: There is a problem specifically for how time_speed is used and how it's configurable, and then there is a separate issue with the entire flawed idea of "user freedom" applying to Minetest's users' users but not the users themselves.
Warr1024: At least presumably the latter has been acknowledged to some extent, but I guess I'll need an issue for the former at least.
Warr1024: There are probably a few ways it could be handled properly.  Maybe allow all settings to be overridden by mod per-world.  Maybe don't have the engine directly interpret any settings for world behavior directly, but go though the mods.  Maybe sprinkle multipliers or adjustments or something for each setting value.  I'm not sure.
sfan5: I'd say you don't really need this if mods were behaving and not setting time_speed without the users consent (I consider that a bug)
sfan5: second, if this is done someone will need to define which settings are too important to be set by the user
Warr1024: I just searched through Discord and found 3 examples of people messing with time_speed already.  I also have no power over what other mods do, but am responsible for defending MY own game from their bad behavior, and so if we can't get every mod to behave (or be maintained) and there's no way to protect other mods from externalities or force those to be internalized by the perpetrators, we're just setting up a "tragedy of the commons"
MTDiscord: scenario.
Warr1024: In theory just having nobody actually override this setting would work, but unfortunately theory is not where minetest is actually played.
Warr1024: If we keep everything within the settings subsystem then the most straightforward way I can think of it would be to just have a "forced_settings" in game.conf which is (1) never interpreted from user settings, and (2) causes other settings to be never interpreted from user settings.
Warr1024: I don't know how to separate client vs. server settings out from that, but possibly it doesn't need to be done, because handing gamedevs a footgun is a different proposition from handing players a footgun: we can expect gamedevs to at least be informed to some extent.
sfan5: the land of expection is not where gamedev happens either
sofar: the best solution I've come up with is to have each server use it's own minetest.conf
Warr1024: Certainly gamedev is not a perfect world either, but at least it gives us some central figures to scream at
Warr1024: "each server use its own minetest.conf" does not work for SP.
Warr1024: though yes, that is pretty much the de facto standard for MP
Warr1024: It's SP where cross-world leakage is really painful though
sfan5: I remember crafter trying to add a security exception for one of its mods so it could download skins, of course the engine ignores these but it serves as an example
Warr1024: The problem with the theory of giving players control over all the settings is that you can't get informed consent from people who actively resist becoming informed...
Warr1024: Yes, I would rather gamedevs get in trouble for trying to do things with settings that break gameplay, than make the players have to suffer the consequences while gamedevs are effectively powerless to do anything about it.
Warr1024: "Sorry, I am forced by the game engine to hold you responsible for that"
sfan5: you can also error out at load time if settings are not what you expect
sfan5: but I guess that is also "holding the players responsible"
Warr1024: As far as just having nobody actually mess with time_speed, that doesn't actually work in practice either, because you can only set it to a constant in minetest.conf, you can't vary it at runtime, like you can with settings:set.  Maybe the cleanest thing to do would be to provide a runtime-only adjustment specifically for this setting, possibly for certain other specific settings...
Warr1024: Yeah, the problem is that for a lot of gamedevs, new completely-naive players are an important target population and we can't hold them responsible for anything at all.  The new content installation system helps a lot, but we also can't be sure they didn't get bad or outdated advice elsewhere, so anything we can do to help is important...
sfan5: warning users about their broken configurations hopefully helps in some cases
rubenwardy: I support adding per-world minetest.conf, and then making minetest.settings:set only write to there
sfan5: we already have an issue for that
sfan5: but it's not clear to me how client settings will be separated from that
sfan5: you don't want to got to the key change menu only to find that you only changed the keys in this world
sfan5: go*
epoch: "this game is trying to change the setting to allow TNT. do you want to allow it?"
Warr1024: Do mods and menus use the same methods to access settings?
Warr1024: Maybe the simplest way to separate them out is to just have a minetest.world_setttings:set() thing for setting world-specific settings, and keep builtin and MTE accessing the global stuff.
Warr1024: That also keeps bug-for-bug compatibility which everyone loves :-)
Warr1024: world_settings:set() or settings:set_world() or whatever, as long as I have a method I can call instead of naively scrambling settings.
Warr1024: This would give me a way to be a good citizen to other SP worlds, BUT also defend myself against other SP worlds that are not being good citizens, so it would solve at least some problems.
rubenwardy: There's no need for that
rubenwardy: minetest.settings should just write to world settings
rubenwardy: The menu API is different
Warr1024: If that's the case then it works for me.  Got an issue number I can look at, or at least the right search term to find it? :-)
Warr1024: I found #6966, is that the one?
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6966 -- World-specific settings
rubenwardy: Title looks right
Warr1024: Hmm, okay, so assuming that 6966 is not going to get resolved for a while, what's my best strat for actually addressing the time_speed issue?   For all worlds running my game, I want the setting to be 0.
Warr1024: It seems like I would set it in minetest.conf for the game, not set it in mod code, and then have to (1) work around it being non-zero, probably by repeatedly calling set_timeofday() in a timer, and (2) warn somebody somehow.
Warr1024: For (1) that will cause some extra network traffic and won't actually achieve the correct effect (it will be juddery) but it might be a close enough approximation...?
Warr1024: For (2) though figuring out who to inform, and how, might be tricky.  Possibly just anybody with the "server" priv?  Maybe just as a colored-text chat message?  A popup error upon entering would be bad enough to be considered "game-breaking".
Warr1024: Given that it's just a chat message I'd have to consider that a "warning" so whatever mitigation I use I would have to assume may need to run indefinitely.  Even being informed of the issue a server owner can't necessarily restart the server at just any time.
sfan5: /set -n time_speed 0
Hawk777: If it’s a server, isn’t it likely that either (1) they set this before first startup, in which case they will likely connect right away to check things out, see it right away, and be able to restart right away because nobody else has joined yet; or (2) they just changed this in an existing world as part of some kind of experiment, in which case they’re probably well equipped to change it back right away when the experiment fa
Hawk777: And if it’s singleplayer, the player can probably restart any time, especially right after they first start the game.
Warr1024: re: "/set -n" yeah, that's what I was doing before, but now I'm trying to be a good citizen.  The correct thing for them to do is to completely unset the setting, not set it to the setting that's right for this world but wrong for the other.
sfan5: the server admin can fix it without restarting the world is what I'm saying
sfan5: and then fix it correctly during downtime later
Warr1024: As for the "if it's a server" thing, I don't want to go too far down the path of having a different flow for each use-case, and I don't want to get too deep into how non-naive server operators would operate their servers.  The whole point of a warning is for users who don't already know...
Hawk777: My logic led to the same conclusion at the end of both paths, though: it should be OK to just yell at them that they broke it and not implement a nasty workaround to keep things limping along until they fix it. And as sfan5 mentioned it can be fixed without even restarting.
Warr1024: Eh, I could give them a stopgap solution I guess, but I'm going to have a small attention budget to work with so I don't know if I'll be able to get too far into hybrid short/long term solutions.
Warr1024: If I'm gonna not solve the problem properly then I'd rather go with the workaround and no warning than the warning and no workaround.
Warr1024: I already have a non-proper solution that solves it soundly after all: I can just set time_speed to 0 myself and make this "someone else's problem" but in an engine-ward direction rather than a user-ward one, i.e. hold the people who have the power to solve it responsible instead of the user.
Hawk777: Hm, but workaround without warning means the player will get a suboptimal experience (the workaround instead of the proper solution) forever because they don’t *know* they have anything to fix. Warning without workaround, they fix it, everything is perfect.
Warr1024: So what it sounds like I'm left with is: (1) set time_speed to 0 in the game's minetest.conf; if the user hasn't set it explicitly, then that will Just Work, and (2) if time_speed at runtime is non-zero then that means the player has messed with it, so I can just change it back to 0 automatically only in that case, which fits with the general "user gets what they deserve for messing with settings" philosophy then.
sfan5: I suggest (1) because you're going to do that either way and check at runtime and yell at the user if it's not zero
Warr1024: I suppose I could include a warning message
Warr1024: "The game was unable to configure itself properly, you have to fix it" is pretty shitty advertising for the game, and for minetest overall.
sfan5: it should sound more like "your settings break this game, fix them or enjoy it broken"
Warr1024: Having game devs forced to make users responsible for configuration is going to conflict with rubenwardy's goals for the featured packages in CDB, at least.
sfan5: haven't read those yet
celeron55_: i think a game should be able to override a setting like time_speed if it wants to. it's clearly a similar thing as something like creative mode, i.e. applicable to some games and some not
Warr1024: Yeah, the problem is just figuring out how we should mix games that need to set time_speed with those that want to leave the user in control, because right now setting it at the game level overrides it for the user, which pollutes settings affecting all other games that assume it's the user's choice.
Warr1024: Fixing 6966 would resolve it, but unless somebody who actually understands the relevant bits gets a fire lit under their ass somehow, I still need to figure out how I should limp along in the meantime.
Warr1024: On the other hand, how well I limp along might also have an impact on the ability to light or sustain said ass-fires so I don't want to completely sweep this under the rug, but at the same time the user shouldn't be the one who has pressure put on them because of it.
Warr1024: er, s/user/player/, to clarify, since we're talking in an enginey context where gamedevs are really the frontline consumers.
celeron55_: maybe it should be a world setting
Warr1024: Yeah, I think that's where #6966 was going with it.  Just not a lot of traction on that right now...
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6966 -- World-specific settings
Warr1024: Hmm, looking at rubenwardy's comment in there, it doesn't look like that would work well either, unless the game were to look for a world/minetest.conf, parse those settings, merge its own into there, and then write it back.
Warr1024: The bottom-line use-case is: as a game dev, I need to be able to control certain setting values (currently mainly time_speed) to prevent them from being modified by users or other games/mods when the only other values they can be set to merely degrade or break the game.
Warr1024: ...or I need to be able to control by some other means the engine behaviors that are currently only controllable via those settings.
sfan5: perhaps that'd be a better approach
sfan5: because on a whim I can't think of any other server settings that games need to control
Warr1024: Yeah, decoupling it from settings was one thing I suggested at some point.  Instead of minetest using the time_speed setting we could just have minetest.set_time_speed(num) or something and have builtin do the job of pulling it from settings by default, but then after that, persisting it as a setting vs. adjusting it at runtime could be independent.
Warr1024: Another one I need to control is enable_damage and creative_mode, but Wuzzy already has a PR open for that
Warr1024: I also need to be able to control movement_liquid_sink, but that should really be a player physics override to begin with.
Warr1024: And the last one is display_gamma, but I need to be able to adjust it but can't take total control.  I want to be able to apply a baseline adjustment to boost mid/low tones, but the player still needs to be able to adjust to compensate for display-specific needs.
rubenwardy: For now, just set the setting from the game
Warr1024: Yeah, for now I'm setting most of these in the per-game default config, since they're also generally not messed-with.  time_speed is a bit more of a pathological case though.
erlehmann: > The bottom-line use-case is: as a game dev, I need to be able to control certain setting values (currently mainly time_speed) to prevent them from being modified by users
erlehmann: does this have anything to do with cheating or not?
erlehmann: prob mostly aesthetic things ig
Warr1024: Aesthetics does play a big part.  We like when people try the game, aren't instantly turned off by the visuals, and actually stick around to see the real value in it.  We don't need RTX whatever, but at least making sure there aren't e.g. weird visual artifacts would help a lot.
Warr1024: In my case, I think if the shadow shader could be force-disabled from the server-side it would probably mitigate this enough for me, actually.
Warr1024: I have no complaint about how the shadows work or look, they just aren't applicable in my game because I don't have a traditional skybox with light coming from a single direciton.
erlehmann: > We don't need RTX whatever
erlehmann: yeah we don't
erlehmann: rtx is a griefer
erlehmann: Warr1024 aren't the new shadows so buggy that they do not even make it default?
Warr1024: They are janky, but I'm used to minetest levels of jank so it didn't really bother me :-D
Warr1024: I mean there are limitations, like geometry that's not loaded can't cast a shadow, and there's not an awful lot a shader dev can do about that in reasonable time.
Warr1024: As a general principle I think we try not to make things default for their first release unless we have reason to believe that they are better for all players, offer no clear drawbacks, and only acceptable risks.  Shadows ARE expensive on the GPU though, so users on high-end rigs can turn them on, but other users may not want sudden unexpected framerate drops...
Sokomine: anyone any idea what makes mobs (mobs_redo ones) loose health?
AristotIe: I always assumed it was because they glitched into walls and took suffocation damage, but I don't actually know if that's correct
Sokomine: aah. yes, i remember what it was...randomly set hp at start
AristotIe: oh
Julius: would it be possible to enable the news rss feed on the forum?
Julius: https://forum.minetest.net/app.php/feed/news
Julius: https://forum.minetest.net/feed.php?mode=news
Julius: I mean
Julius: normally that works on phpbb forums
Julius: I would like to add it to our feed aggregator: https://planet.freegamedev.net
Julius: if I just use the feed for the news forum directly I also get a feed entry for every comment
Sokomine: ooh! a bug
Sokomine: er. not here...
wwar: Sokomine, the glitching to walls was fixex long time ago,
wwar: there is something called light damage, when they are in bright places they lose healtj
wwar: Health*
wwar: They fixed that glitching bug by making the hitbox a bit taller
Sokomine: they're peaceful npc. not sensitive to light
wwar: hm.. maybe a mob attacked them?
wwar: protector rune does not protect against hostile mobs
wwar: Also NPCs never glitched in walls, only small mobs like chicken, parrot or rat
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04x2048 -> 03minetest/minetest: Add smooth light-shadow transition at noon (#11430) 13ff2d2a6 https://git.io/J4nGP (152021-07-25T10:35:12Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04random-geek -> 03minetest/minetest: Document glasslikeliquidlevel merge bits (#11479) 135d27cc5 https://git.io/J4nGM (152021-07-25T10:34:53Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04x2048 -> 03minetest/minetest: Distribute shadow map update over multiple frames to reduce stutter (… 13bf3acbf https://git.io/J4nCo (152021-07-25T10:36:23Z)
independent56: is <!doctype html> effecitvley the same as #!/usr/bin/perl?
sfan5: if you muddy it enough I'm sure the answer could be yes
sfan5: but it's in fact no
independent56: Makes sense. One is for the browser, and another is for scripts.
sfan5: that's not the reason
entuland: a bit of a stretch, but you could consider them as "headers" to tell the computer what to do with anything that follows
entuland: the first tells the browser to expect a specific variant of the many HTML incarnations, the second tells the computer to pass the rest to a specific program to interpret it
independent56: hmm
Sublayer plank: for all intents and purposes today it's just a way to tell the browser to render the page in standards compliant mode as compared to quirks mode
independent56: hmm
AristotIe: my local minetest server hosted by my raspberry pi has this problem where if more than one person joins the server it times out, but my ssh connection stays up.  any ideas on what could be causing this?
Warr1024: Does the same set of mods and configuration work on any other machine?  Crapping out on a second player joining sounds like the kind of behavior I'd expect from a bad mod that was never tested with and doesn't actually work with multiplayer.
independent56: simple - different bandiwht requirements. SSH requires like 1 Kb, minetest requires 100mb.
independent56: Maybe your server is incapable
independent56: (turn off bitcoinminer)
AristotIe: well, occasionally after many reboots, you can get 2 people to  join and it works, but once those people log out, it goes back to it's normal behavior
Warr1024: That bandwidth ratio is pretty insane, I don't think it's that bad for any reasonable content.  Though yeah, again, any one bad mod could drastically change what MT actually requires.
AristotIe: and I did "ethtool eth0 | grep Speed" and it said 1000Mb/s
Warr1024: That doesn't mean that the chip is actually capable of processing and pushing that much data though.
independent56: Must be some mod. Maybe you have too much to handle (what my server almost has)
AristotIe: hmm, true
Warr1024: Best thing to do is monitor resource usage like CPU, RAM, network, I/O, etc. while it's running and see if you can find a bottleneck.
AristotIe: hmm, good idea
AristotIe: do you know of any terminal based apps that can do that?
entuland: "nmon" could do probably
AristotIe: hmm, thx
entuland: yw
AristotIe: ah, if the minetest server is taking 100% of the cpu, it probably has only a small amount of bandwidth left to do 2-300Mb/s
erlehmann: > virtual void* ServerThread::run(): A fatal error occurred: String too long for serializeString16
erlehmann: anyone has any idea how this can crap out in server.cpp?
erlehmann: like, conceptually
erlehmann: what does a too long string represent here?
erlehmann: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10981
erlehmann: > String too long for serializeString(16) caused by mod #10981
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10981 -- String too long for serializeString(16) caused by mod
erlehmann: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8977
erlehmann: so it seems items with too much meta can trigger this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8977#issuecomment-756870048
Warr1024: If a player is abruptly teleported somewhere very distant on a map, do the mapblocks the player was in immediately before stay active for a little while, or are they immediately frozen?
sfan5: IIRC block deactivation happens on a certain interval but it's not long
independent56: wow... i never knew scanning was that slow... meh, if it's how companies doit,it must be how i should do it.
independent56: Wait... i set resolution toohigh
specing: it's not how the companies do it
independent56: Wait... what?! how do they turn their paper into bytes?
heavy_gale: xerox,… guessing what it might contain ^^
independent56: Once i have scanned the yearbook, i am going to email the PDF to allemailaddresses within. some will be happy to get what they lost back.
specing: independent56: they have better equipment than your $100 printer
independent56: Ah yeah.
independent56: Wow... the information in this yearbook must be so  outdated. We left year 6, and i am currently in year 10.my hobbies were "editing, watching vids."  Now, they would be "Hobbies: Coding, Sysadmin, and lazing".
independent56: All this scanning makes me feel like somearchivsit, which is what i am doing - archiving my past documents
independent56: is it better to have dunning-kruger or imposter syndrome? I don't know which one to choose for my mild rocket passion
Warr1024: I always go with both.  https://xkcd.com/1954/
independent56: Ha
independent56: Anyways, i am shook to the core. i ha dphpmyadmin exposed publicly. And i had scans with a huge wordlist. here are some of the words; "donald" "r00t" "confidential". i terrifies me that peoplewoulduse  such passwords.
specing: pr0 sysadmining
independent56: haha. I am deifnately a pro... i definately did not leave my server insecur ewiht theexcuse "i have backups"
independent56: Don't pentest... i am backups have
rubenwardy: Inside the Box singleplayer mode, when
rubenwardy: it's would be so good as a singleplayer, it could use the HTTP API for download/uploading boxes and the leaderboard
rubenwardy: you could make it so the singleplayer mode can only download boxes and joining the server is needed to make them, if that is easier
BuckarooBanzai: rubenwardy: (relevant) http-only mapgen: https://github.com/blockexchange/blockexchange_mapgen
independent56: Yay, both HDDs have a backup now. it only took two hours of rsync idle forthe second one, and 5 hours for the first
independent56: mainly because i was fiddling with rsync stuck files
independent56: Turns out i was named in some academic paper, i feel so flattered https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6585378/
entuland: uh
independent56: i was joking
waar: That comic is a bit sus
independent56: i broke my comptuer by tring toisntall libc6:i863, and now dpkg won't work. any advice?
specing: don't do that
Jordach: install gentoo
jason1234: jrmu: hi
jason1234: we are are nasa g0v server ;)
Tim7: ~cdb limboarria
independent__: And the worst thing about my ASUS? all the letter rows dont align with the onesabove and below it... oh wait that's all  keyboards
independent56: i find it funny how apt goes "56 not  to upgrade", as a helpful reminder.
AndrewYu: Hello! Is there a easy way for an admin to attach to another player?
AndrewYu: preferrably while using the cloaking mod or other means of invisibility
CWz: i think the shadow command does that
Kimapr: AndrewYu: szutil_watch
Kimapr: https://gitlab.com/sztest/szutilpack
AndrewYu: Okay, I'll look into that
beanzilla: Is there a builtin distance calculation? As in I could give it say 2 player positions and get a number of how far away they are from each other? (I've already made my own but I wanted to know if it was already done internally)
rubenwardy: vecotr.distance
beanzilla: Ah, ok... I figured that, but didn't really know. Thank you.
luk3yx: <AndrewYu> preferrably while using the cloaking mod or other means of invisibility
luk3yx: AndrewYu: The cloaking mod adds /shadow <player>
AristotIe: is there a version of unified_inventory for minetest 5.1.0?
Jonathon: check out a older commit
AristotIe: how do you find those, I had that thought, but I can't find a "commits" button
AristotIe: ong github btw
AristotIe: on*
AristotIe: oh, wait, I found it
Jonathon: something like https://github.com/minetest-mods/unified_inventory/tree/0f756a5d33a5f8fe7c0b7c808fb9e7d0bb6f3eca
AristotIe: ah, thx, that's exactly what I was looking for
Tim7: Hey guys
beanzilla: Does minetest.get_player_by_name() return a specific thing for if the player is offline and/or if the player has never been on the server?
GreenXenith: No, it will simply return nil if the player is not online
beanzilla: Ok, thank you.
Danil_2461: is there a way to make a formspec image not resize when you resize your window so it stays consistant no matter the screen size
twoelk: summon a wizard that says "you shall not scale" in a stern voice
Warr1024: As I understand it all visual elements in MT can be scaled by the client and this is intentional
Danil_2461: holy shit that works!!!!!
Danil_2461: jk
Danil_2461: is there a way to disable that?
Danil_2461: for a formspec
Warr1024: It may be possible to make sure things scale consistently, but you can't disallow a user from using accessibility features like GUI scaling or custom fonts.
Danil_2461: uh huh
Danil_2461: i am going to kill
Danil_2461: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/867809704271937566/unknown.png
Danil_2461: oops
independent__: I am slightly paranoid about a house fire destroying my sentimental documents. is it worth the effort to scan my physical media and back the scans up? Photocpying is wasteful of ink, and i feel that files are much better,
celeron55_: there are only two variables when deciding that
celeron55_: the worth of the documents, and the likelihood of house fire
celeron55_: well, the third variable is the effort
independent__: I have never had a house fire. but paper ink fades... maybe in a few decades they will be lost
independent__: The effort is taking paper, putting it inside our houshold printer, then scanning.
Warr1024: Modern phone cameras are good enough at taking photos that it's a lot faster to capture documents that way than a flatbed scanner, IF you're okay with some distortion.
Warr1024: More useful for record keeping than sentimental archival, granted.
Warr1024: On the other hand, you can capture images for actual use this way, then buy a decent firesafe to keep the originals.
Warr1024: Remember that waterproof may be more important than fireproof in an actual fire, because the damage done by hosing your partially burned house down to quell the last of the embers might actually be worse than the flames themselves.
Warr1024: Most modern inks don't fade at an appreciable rate that it's worth worrying about it, unless you're talking like those thermal transfer printouts, or if you're keeping them in the sun.
independent__: ah yeah
Warr1024: you can stack some books on documents for a day or so to flatten them out and undo creases, if necessary, so long as they don't have sticky stuff on them and aren't all different sizes and shapes.  Then see if you can setup a tripod with a camera, possibly a phone camera, and photograph them that way, one at a time.  Then store them away in your safe, and you can use the photos you've taken as the "living" copies when you want to access
MTDiscord: them, as well as to back them up digitally.
independent__: i prefer scanning as it is more consistent.
Krock: i prefer spamming as it is more convenient
Warr1024: Scanning nets you better quality at higher time cost.  That decision is just a matter of cost/benefit.
Warr1024: If you got the scanner and you got the patience, go for it.
independent__: i will
independent__: I am a teen who just left school for the summer holidays. I like the idea of making backups of my personal documents, like old diaries.
specing: independent__: get an ADF scanner
specing: the one that can fetch paper on its own
specing: And make sure to only write documents on A4 pages. Notebooks are difficult to scan automatically
independent__: Too much cost for what is not an office, but a one-off experience, dealing with notebooks
independent__: *additional
independent__: We have a home printer, and that is what i am going to use.
specing: independent__: don't have an ADF scanner at school?
independent__: I'm not bringing mymost sentimental documents to school, a house of chaos.
specing: In uni we had 2 massive copiers for student use, they are A3 sheets for breakfast
specing: ate*
independent__: Ha, as if we had such machines for public use. Last time ichecked, there was this room with this powster printing machine. I do nto remember any pother machines.
sfan5: is your keyboard broken by chance
independent__: yes, space is entirely damaged
independent__: it's a real pain.
specing: I remember when I was a kid, I laptoped on a laptop which had a gpu that I had to reflow once a week
specing: you have it easy
Warr1024: If these documents are of significant sentimental value and not easily replaced, I'd be wary of entrusting them to some feed mechanism anyway :-)
independent__: I remember when my battery was broken on a tablet computer,so i used the warranty. and they destroyed all my data. I forgot what it was after a year.
independent__: I hate data loss
specing: lol
specing: yeah, the first thing they do is factory reset & see if issue goes away
independent__: Oh... so i guess i will not give my computer to the ASUS centre, to fix the SSD and what used to be a fan which was noisy (sounded like a car engine at some points).
independent__: They may even blame linux for all the issues.
specing: make backups
independent__: i didnt knosw that in 2017
independent__: i was some... 10 yr old
specing: your parents should have
independent__: Nah, they're "too busy" for backups. But they would lose their work otherwise DX
independent__: I hate youtube. UI am trying to play some music on thesmart tv,and it keeps on deleting my queue because i use the porly designedwbe application.
independent__: If it takes it's UI open source, all the issues i have will be fixed within a few weeks. It's the second most used website.
Jordach: It’s because google wants you using chromecast
Jordach: Again they also want you using android but even their own apps are second fiddle to iOS devices
Jordach: For some reason el goog likes to prefer iOS apps over android
independent__: still, youyube on my horribly underpowered alcatel 1 phone goes horribly.
independent__: And i am using vivaldi... which is not chrome, so i guess this ismy punishment for not lettinggoogle track me.
Benrob0329: Vivaldi is a slightly modified chromium
Benrob0329: You're basically still using Chrome, just with someone else's proprietary bits
Benrob0329: If your device really struggles with YouTube, maybe use NewPipe (Android) or MPV (Linux)
independent__: yeah, but vivalidi is a rare exampleof good propietary.
independent__: I love it. The propietary UI is worth it
Benrob0329: Ehh..it's ok I guess
Benrob0329: I'll stick to FF for my everyday web stuff
independent__: Ha, i switched to that. but it didn't have native tab groups in the way i use them
Warr1024: NewPipe is decent, but YT pulls the rug out from under them often enough that it was useless trying to use the F-Droid version.
Benrob0329: "Native Tab Groups" ?
Warr1024: I have to get NewPipe updates directly through the app.
independent__: And the sidebar is great. i can access my downloads and history through the sidebar. So convineint.
Warr1024: FireFox is my middle browser.
Benrob0329: >looks Ctrl+H, Ctrl+B, and Tab Containers
independent__: Ha, if you go tovivaldi, you wont want to turn back.
Benrob0329: I'm not saying that sidebar support couldn't be better, because it could be (there was an addon I had a while back to move tabs w/ containers to the sidebar, but I don't frankly use it enough to care) but the stuff does exist
Benrob0329: I used Vivaldi for a while, but I'd rather not continue to make Chrome the only rendering engine on the Web
independent__: hmm... yeah, i just prefer vivaldi.
Benrob0329: ok
independent__: stay with inneficency, i guess :-p
Warr1024: 2/3 of my browsers are gecko, 1 is chrome
Benrob0329: If I wanted to be efficient, I'd close my web browser, not open it :P
independent__: Ha, what if your work is online? I guess you couldhire someone to brute-force ssh to access the server,i guess :-P
Cybille: Opera GX Bowser?  ... with Sidebar, VPN and GX-Control (CPU/Cache/Network SpeedMeter) ?
independent__: Eh, i dislike Opera. it stole vivaldi's UI: https://cdn-production-opera-website.operacdn.com/staticfiles/assets/images/main/home/opera-for-desktop--rebranding@2x.8e7df82b968b.webp
independent__: Compromise - i use vivaldi for some, and opera for some
independent__: Opera is toned down vivaldi from  my shallow research
Cybille: Compormise: IE,FF,Chrome, Opera GX (not Opera) ... for better Support and Checks of WebSite Troubles ... Stay Up to Date
independent__: XD
independent__: another arc... i should plug the charger in first, not the laptop.
Jordach: just use safari /s
specing: yep independent__
specing: independent__: though that's an indication that there's no fets on the input lines, which means you can probably extract 9-12V of the li-ion battery through the power connector
independent__: Oh...what does that mean?whatcan i do with it?
specing: idk
independent__: Always trust ASUS to cheap out :-P
independent__: i guess goodnight.
Jordach: asus is a reputable company
Jordach: if you want someone who cheaps out rhymes with Hell, Michigan
Cybille: Every Company has cheap Things ... Pay more for more better Things, or learn to Mange (Your Money)
Jordach: https://tenor.com/view/6m-rain-wallstreet-make-it-rain-gif-8203989
Swift110-mobile: sup folks
erlehmann: hey, did any of you ever want to figure out how many packets your mod or game sends without manually tallying up the debug output? i have got something for you, a script that tells you how many packets per second are actually sent: https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/pulls/123/files
erlehmann: the reason is that mineclonia inherited a LOT of useless packets from mineclone2
erlehmann: and we are in the process of cleaning that stuff up
GNUHacker: is possible get offline player metadata?
GNUHacker: I try:
GNUHacker: local player = core.get_player_or_load(name)
GNUHacker: but
GNUHacker: attempt to call field "get_player_or_load" a nil value
specing: It's not in the doc
GNUHacker: maybe im in wrong minetest version (5.4.1) ?
GNUHacker: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/9177
GNUHacker: sorry wrong url
GNUHacker: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6193
sfan5: the pull request you linked was not merged so the function described there is not available
GNUHacker: :c
Elvis26: test
Krock: test failed successfully
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04hecktest -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove unused header includes 13850293b https://git.io/JlTIf (152021-07-21T20:07:13Z)
Extex: I have a question. player:set_eye_offset for first person, if you put it behind the centre will it rotate around centre with the new offset or will it rotate around that new spot
Extex: For example say your player model's head isn't in the centre
Extex: Like a sheep or a horse
Extex: Oh wait nvm I figured it out
beanzilla: What's the best way to obtain the max hp of a player?
sfan5: !api
MinetestBot: Someone thinks you should read the API docs, please go to: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt
sfan5: let's see
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04hecktest -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove unused ITextSceneNode header (#11476) 13a049e82 https://git.io/JlT2V (152021-07-21T22:55:20Z)
sfan5: player:get_properties().max_hp
beanzilla: thank you.
beanzilla: I was close.
VanessaE: https://imgur.com/f8WDaEm.png  the main railyard/train station on my "Traintable" server
rubenwardy: Pexin: we can have different defaults for different platforms
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix no locales being generated when APPLY_LOCALE_BLACKLIST=0 136caed70 https://git.io/JWj25 (152021-07-20T15:58:47Z)
beanzilla: Hi, for some reason I am having an issue with modstorage... https://pastebin.com/ChhAPVEM <-- Is an example of what I am essentially doing, can anyone give advice on this. (My code is always setting the value, like it never makes it to saving the modstorage)
beanzilla: Nevermind I figured out what was happening... I was setting my value instead of giving it the key... thus never correctly working... and not throwing an error.
* beanzilla: has confirmed set_string needs key then value... and can't just give it value.
DivideByZero: Even if I recreate the doors they disappear again if I leave the area and return.
DivideByZero: Half size doors do not seem to be affected.
DivideByZero: Tried from a second computer with another version of Minetest also. So, I think it is server related. Perhaps a miss-behaving mod.
Jonathon: a/lbm perhaps?
DivideByZero: What is that?
Jonathon: probably would be a lbm, as thats when loaded
DivideByZero: Can you can a quick definition of 'lbm'?
Jonathon: a lbm runs every time a part of the map is loaded
Jonathon: hence its already loaded, you place a door, unloaded it, reload it, the lbm triggers
DivideByZero: WHat does lmb stand for? Is it an acronym?
Jonathon: that is my guess
Jonathon: LoadingBlockModifier
DivideByZero: ok
Jonathon: literally search lua_api.txt
Jonathon: do you have worldedit on this server?
Jonathon: or using linux
DivideByZero: So, the doors do already exist so when I place a new door over it, it removes the new door, but not the old door?
Jonathon: huh?
DivideByZero: I have world edit, haven't used it for awhile now though, and I use Linux for the server and the computer I game from.
Jonathon: you said you place a door, unload the area, come back and the door is gone correct?
DivideByZero: Well sometimes it's just gone, and other times I see the door for less than a second before it disappears.
DivideByZero: That happens on the door to my home often.
Jonathon: yeah, slow lbm probably
DivideByZero: But I walked around and all other doors are missing or disappearing when I encounter them also.
Jonathon: either grep for register_lbm in your mods folder, do //lua minetest.chat_send_all(dump(minetest.registered_lbms))
DivideByZero: How would I fix a slow lbm and get my doors back?
Jonathon: and while your at it grep for register_abm in your mods folder, do //lua minetest.chat_send_all(dump(minetest.registered_abms))
DivideByZero: Type this is terminal, or in the game?
DivideByZero: in*
Jonathon: grep in your terminal, //lua command in game
Jonathon: either or will give you a idea of what a/lbms are registered
DivideByZero: ok, give me a moment.
DivideByZero: And thanks.
Jonathon: note, im just guess its probably a a/lbm action the way you describe it, i have no hands on with the issue
DivideByZero: I did the two in game commands, where does it dump to?
DivideByZero: Not in my log
Jonathon: chat
DivideByZero: Nothing appeared on the chat screen either
Jonathon: default key binding f10 will open chat larger
DivideByZero: Yes, but still it gave no output, though it registered the command issued
DivideByZero: Do I need some debug setting enabled first?
Jonathon: no
Jonathon: what game are you using?
DivideByZero: Minetest default with a bunch of mods added.
Jonathon: even stock mtg gives me a output
Jonathon: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/866496645037817876/unknown.png
DivideByZero: Yeah, I didn't get anything like that on my screen/
DivideByZero: Want a screenshot?
Jonathon: sure
DivideByZero: I'm on IRC, i'll have to link it to a image site.
Jonathon: yeah, fine
DivideByZero: WHat's a new alternative to tinypic? It's dead now.
Jonathon: imgur?
DivideByZero: https://imgur.com/a/4dIWskB
Jonathon: im not seeing anything at that link
DivideByZero: Hmm, let me try again
Jonathon: ok
DivideByZero: That website wasn't working for me for some reason, but try this one:  https://postimg.cc/yJ1m8MJL
Jonathon: looks like you have some sort of mod sending debug to chat?
DivideByZero: Yes.
Jonathon: what mod is it?
DivideByZero: Just for the admin accounts. Makes it easier when installing mods to check for errors and such.
DivideByZero: Um..  I'll have to check, I'll get back to you on that shorly.
DivideByZero: szutil_logtrace: Allow privileged players to monitor server debug trace in chat. Part of this mod: https://content.minetest.net/packages/Warr1024/szutilpack/
Jonathon: ok, try toggling that off, and then running the //lua command
DivideByZero: ok
DivideByZero: rebooting the minetest server, it takes a few minutes.
DivideByZero: I don't put the word 'do' in do it? I did from the //
Jonathon: //lua minetest.chat_send_all(dump(minetest.registered_lbms))
DivideByZero: Yeah, that's what I did. Ok, waiting to retry withou the szutil
DivideByZero: Even without that mod I am getting no output.
DivideByZero: I did /mods, to make sure it's not loaded too.
Jonathon: what is it doing now?
DivideByZero: Nothing. I did see some output about an error for each of those commands on the console.
DivideByZero: Server: ProcessData(): PacketError: what=String too long
DivideByZero: For both commands, that same error.
Jonathon: ah, to many a/lbms
DivideByZero: Oh. From so many mods?
Jonathon: minetest.chat_send_all can only handle so long of strings
DivideByZero: That makes sense.
Jonathon: you can always grep your mod directory
DivideByZero: Can you give the full grep command I need to use?
Jonathon: grep -r register_abm MOD_DIR_PATH
Jonathon: grep -r register_lbm MOD_DIR_PATH
DivideByZero: And do this from the mods folder, correct?
Jonathon: swap MOD_DIR_PATH for your mods path
Jonathon: well, anywhere
DivideByZero: If I do it from the mods folder do I still need to specify a path?
Jonathon: no
DivideByZero: ok it's processing and I'm getting output.
DivideByZero: Should I be looking for something particular in this output, or put it on pastebin so you can see the output from each command?
Jonathon: this will give you a output of what mods register a/lbms
DivideByZero: I see lots of them.
DivideByZero: I don't know how to spot a misbehaving one though.
DivideByZero: It looks like a big list with no extra data about it.
Jonathon: hmm, im thinking how to dump the whole abm from grep
DivideByZero: ok. Thanks, I will wait for your next suggestion.
DivideByZero: PS: The only door mod I have is 'Doors Redo' by TenPlus1, and I haven't had any issues with it in the past, but it could be a possibility.
DivideByZero: His code usually seems pretty well done though.
Jonathon: //lua for _, bt in pairs(minetest.registered_lbms) do for _, item in pairs(bt.nodenames) do if string.find(item, "door") then minetest.chat_send_all(bt.mod_origin) break end end end
Jonathon: try that from in game
Jonathon: terrible code, but your only running it once
DivideByZero: ok
Jonathon: that will give you a dump of mods that use string door in there nodenames category of lbms
DivideByZero: it listed 'doors' multiple times, and then ended with an error:
Jonathon: oh?
Jonathon: ...the error is?
DivideByZero: WorldEdit -!- code error: (load):1: bad argument #1 to 'pairs' (table expected, got string)
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
DivideByZero: Sorry took me a few seconds, had to type it out manually.
Jonathon: oh yeah, heh
Jonathon: i could work around that, but it be even longer
DivideByZero: I'm willing to try. Thanks for volunteering your time to assist.
Jonathon: https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/doors/src/master/init.lua#L293-L332 is the only l/abm doors redo uses, which odesnt say anything about air
Jonathon: *doesnt
DivideByZero: That one didn't show up in the last command I did, just `doors`. (Which is the default doors, isn't it?)
DivideByZero: But if may have got that error before it finished.
Jonathon: doors redo claims to be doors from a code standpoint, just as farming redo claims to be farming
DivideByZero: it*
DivideByZero: Oh, ok.
Jonathon: im curious how a nodenames is not a table
DivideByZero: Should I try to disable doors redo? Unfortunately I lost most of my doors now anyways.
Jonathon: because according to lua_api.txt it should be a table always
DivideByZero: The error looks like it's from WorldEdit and not Minetest itself. Perhaps WorldEdit has an error in it?
Jonathon: well, you can try disabling it and seeing what happens, you may end up with some unknown nodes, but nothing re enabling shouldnt fix
Jonathon: the error is worldedit complaining about a error in my lua code rather than crashing
DivideByZero: Oh, I also have a shared locks mod, which could possinly affect doors also, since it adds locks to certain doors (not the ones I've been using though that are disappearing.)
DivideByZero: And I see Home Decor pack adds something for doors too.
DivideByZero: `doors_and_gates`
DivideByZero: And Mesecons has mesecons_doors (but I don't think I've used any of those either)
Jonathon: //lua for _, bt in pairs(minetest.registered_lbms) do if type(bt.nodenames) == "table" then for _, item in pairs(bt.nodenames) do if string.find(item, "door") then minetest.chat_send_all(bt.mod_origin) break end end else minetest.chat_send_all("it is " .. type(bt.nodenames)) end end
DivideByZero: While I'm waiting if you give a longer command, I'm going to see what happens if I disable Doors Redo
DivideByZero: Oh, I'll do your command first then.
Jonathon: i included a debug string to tell us what type nodenames is when it errors
Jonathon: hence the it is .. type
DivideByZero: I got a longer list this time, and WorldEdit reported success.
DivideByZero: Do you need to see the list?
Jonathon: uh, what besides doors is in it?
DivideByZero: `it is string` x3, castle, xpanes, `mtg_plus` x4, ethereal, `homedecor_doors_and_gates` x12, palm, oak, maple, larch, clementinetree, chestnuttree, birch, ??
DivideByZero: Larch door is one of the doors that disapears.
Jonathon: what the heck is a larch door?
DivideByZero: I used that door on my home.
Jonathon: aka, what mod provides it?
DivideByZero: Kind of like a barn looking door but with different handles.
DivideByZero: mod_larch
Jonathon: never heard of that mod
Jonathon: do you know what that mod is?
Jonathon: well, can you post a screenshot from game of you pointing at the door with f5(debug) on?
DivideByZero: I tried a different door though and it still disapeared, glass door, which I think is a default one.
DivideByZero: I'm not sure which mod it was part of, perhaps MoreTrees?
DivideByZero: I'll try to do that screenshot.
Jonathon: is it doing it for all doors, or only select doors?
DivideByZero: https://postimg.cc/N9CGHzg8
DivideByZero: All of them I believe, let me run around and check a couple more.
DivideByZero: Locked doors, half doors, and some very basic doors were not affected, but most of the nicer looking doors I used are now gone.
DivideByZero: Was that screenshot any help?
Jonathon: i was refering to placing the door and pointing at it, so i could see it, as well as its node name
DivideByZero: oh ok
DivideByZero: I'll do another one.
Jonathon: basically, i wnt this
Jonathon: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/866514795632787476/unknown.png
Jonathon: *want
DivideByZero: https://postimg.cc/XpSqctfx
DivideByZero: Yup, I got that in this shot.
Jonathon: so ok, thats a door from cool trees
DivideByZero: Ok.
Jonathon: and some mods from it came up in lbms
Jonathon: well, let me go read its code
DivideByZero: Ok, thank you very much.
Jonathon: actually screw that, ill grep it.
Jonathon: nothing that would indicate removal there
DivideByZero: ok
DivideByZero: As long as I stay near the door, like while looking at it, it doesn't disapear.
Jonathon: do you use worldmods, or world.mt to enable your mods?
DivideByZero: world.mt
Jonathon: well, i was trying to avoid this, want to upload it to some pastebin site?
DivideByZero: Sure.
DivideByZero: pastebin.com/91BwCkmf
Jonathon: homedecor does convert doors, but it does not remove them
DivideByZero: So that one shouldn't be my issue then?
Jonathon: well ok, nothing stands out to me, and i dont relish reading through all of these
DivideByZero: I do have quite a few mods loaded. But they all added fun to the game or some other benefit.
Jonathon: correct https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/homedecor_modpack/-/blob/master/homedecor_doors_and_gates/init.lua#L752-772
DivideByZero: A bunch of others I had tried and they either didn't work or I didn't like them, and they are disabled (false)
DivideByZero: Something you want me to read at that link?
Jonathon: i just linked the lbm it uses for doors
DivideByZero: ok
Jonathon: idk, ima say ask someone else, its late and i dont have much more time to look at this, sorry
DivideByZero: I see the code, but nothing stuck out at me. :D
DivideByZero: Ok, no problem, you already put in quite a bit of time to it, so thank you for that. It is appreciated.
Jonathon: np
DivideByZero: Have a good night.
Jonathon: ty
DivideByZero: :)
DivideByZero: Seems my issue has to do with the `Doors Redo` mod by TenPlus1, I reported the error to his git page:  https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/doors/issues/3
DivideByZero: With the mod disabled the doors no longer disappear.
Bombo: is there a reason why mt doesn't support mysql or mariadb? i guess i have to install postgresql too just for mt
specing: hopefully because they suck
sfan5: lack of interest
sfan5: people who don't care use sqlite, people who do use postgres
sfan5: I once wrote a mariadb backend fwiw https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/tree/db_mysql
Bombo: mkay thx
Bombo: i just noticed the HD is making noises while we are playing
Bombo: so it would probably be better to use postgres or maria i think
Bombo: and faster i hope?
Bombo: faster like in: the world builds up faster as i walk around ;)
sfan5: a dedicated db server might cache stuff in RAM but so will your OS if you use sqlite, not really that much different
sfan5: for speed try with sqlite_synchronous = 0 in your minetest.conf
sfan5: (https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/stable-5/minetest.conf.example#L1512)
sfan5: sorry, sqlite_synchronous = 1 actually
Bombo: mkay it sounds just like every 3 or so seconds it does something on hd
Bombo: will try that
Bombo: still much happening on the hd
Bombo: and flying dragons are stuttering worse than m-m-max headroom
Bombo: trying with sqlite_synchronous = 0 now
Bombo: now it's pretty silent, but i guess minetest server is frozen, can't connect and 100% cpu heh
Bombo: hm i moved too fast
Bombo: it's really faster, let's hope nothing crashes hehe
Pexin: flying dragon crashes?
Bombo: no the server
Pexin: flying    dragon    crashes
Pexin: needs wing in cast for 5 weeks
Bombo: well it almost did, it was flying away, me following, until the world's end, then the server froze
Bombo: and no beer
Bombo: it was flying at one spot, the new blocks weren't loading
Pexin: end of ze world
Warr1024: "flying dragon crashes" ... now I'm imagining dragons in today's world, populations devastated by towerkill...
Bombo: will come soon :)(
Bombo: my 9yo niece asked me if we can build a dragon in real world, i said 'sure'
Pexin: build it genetically!
Bombo: or half robot half animal half pterodactyl
Pexin: haha, when I was a kid, my cousin and I wanted to build a transformer. specifically mirage (I'm old) our uncle was interested in helping but was confused about where the pilot sits when in robot form. us kids were confused about what a gear shift does.
Pexin: shocking newsflash: that project did not happen
Bombo: heh
Pexin: oh, and if you really want to know what it's like to meet a dragon, watch a cat torment a mouse. then Be The Mouse.
Pexin: done
Bombo: we could tame the dragon by feeding it cats :)
jonadab: It's hard to imagine a dragon actually *eating* a cat (really, really doesn't seem worth it), but I can readily imagine a dragon tormenting a cat.
VanessaE: how do clickable links work in MT?  I git pulled a couple of days ago, and I've enabled the setting, but they're still not clickable in either the F10 or "T" dropdowns, or when visible in the recent chat (provided I hit ESC so that it releases the mouse pointer)
VanessaE: (this is Linux, if that matters, and the system default browser is Chrome)
Krock: shift+click or middle click
specing: VanessaE: let me tell you a secret: patch mt so that chat is sent to stdout/file, then click links in terminal :P
VanessaE: Krock: nope.
VanessaE: specing: normally I'd see them in my servers' IRC also. :)
VanessaE: so really, the feature isn't useful for me, but I'd still like to make sure I can let others know how to use it.
specing: VanessaE: not PMs, no
VanessaE: ok, there's that.
Pexin: VanessaE: can also get to the setting from settings tab at main menu
Pexin: are links blue?
Pexin: are you using freetype?
VanessaE: the links are not specially-colored.  freetype... um.  you know, I'm not sure if that's compiled-in
* VanessaE: checks
VanessaE: yep. it's in there.
Pexin: just to be thorough: the setting takes effect after restarting MT, and links must start with http:// or https://
VanessaE: I restarted it after changing that setting
Pexin: (I have no idea how/if non freetype might affect it)
VanessaE: wait
VanessaE: maybe I didn't
* VanessaE: checks again
VanessaE: (I might have only exited to the menu)
VanessaE: AAHHH
VanessaE: they're blue and work on middle-click now
Pexin: otay  :]
VanessaE: shift-left-click does not work though
Pexin: ctrl
VanessaE: noted
Pexin: 2 reasons it's not enabled by default. 1. i had considered it "experimental" and just never changed my mind. 2. it does nothing for touchscreen users and I'm still not quite sure how it may affect performance on cheap tablets.
VanessaE: well on cheap tabs MT doesn't work well anyway, not on a real server anyway :)
Pexin: i've only tried on a tablet once. _barely_ worked in singleplayer vanilla. on a server, it took forever to load then crashed out
Pexin: but it was android 4.4
VanessaE: well, the android version doesn't much matter, so much as the hardware, and with "cheap" usually comes weak hardware
VanessaE: that said, when I tried it once, MT worked just kinda okay-ish on my Galaxy S4 running 4.4.  about as I'd expect for a phone
independent56: haha the UK government hates RAR so much they made an article guiding you on it
independent56: oh wait... it's a different context :-/
independent56: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-rehabilitation-activity-requirement-in-probation/rar-guidance If you truly arecurious.
jonadab: Has anybody seen a situation wherein the Minetest client only updates any of the contents of its window, when the user switches away to another window and back?
jonadab: I'm seeing this on a mostly-stock Win10 system that I'm using temporarily as a stand-in until I get my real computer up and running.
jonadab: Happens everywhere:  in the menus when the client starts, and also when in the game.  The entire visual content of the window is completely static except when switching out of the window and back.
rubenwardy: when did you last restart? Weird graphics issues like this often happen when not restarting for ages
rubenwardy: otherwise, no idea
Warr1024: I've similarly seen that kind of behavior, but it was a long time ago and not minetest-related, and I seem to remember restarting probably fixed it.
Warr1024: either that or I was doing something weird in the first place and just not doing the weird thing resolved it :-)
jonadab: rubenwardy: It's Windows 10.  It was last restarted the last time Windows Updates forcibly restarted it, which was quite recently (I think about a week ago).
jonadab: If there's any way to prevent 10 from doing that, I have not discovered it.
jonadab: However, I can try restarting again.  I mean, it's a Windows system, frequent restarting is just something you learn to live with, and it's not like I'm gonna lose a bunch of screen sessions or something.
jonadab: Restarted Windows.  No difference.  Oh well.  Not a big deal, I'll just wait until I get my real computer up and running.  Hopefully soon.  Going to dd the filesystem onto the new drive tomorrow and go from there.
rubenwardy: have you changed any settings?
rubenwardy: if you look at the minetest.conf, you'll see the changes settings
rubenwardy: What's the renderer?  On Minetest 5.4, you can see it by going to Mainmenu > About, and seeing the bottom left
rubenwardy: In older versions, it's in the Window title
jonadab: rubenwardy: No, this was a system that had never previously had Minetest on it, so no settings had been changed.
jonadab: They were just whatever the defaults are.
Warr1024: Does Windows actually have a sane default for the renderer?
jonadab: I don't see an About option in the main menu.  There's a Credits tab, but I don't see anything about the renderer there.
jonadab: This is Minetest 5.4.1
rubenwardy: Huh, maybe that was a 5.5.0 thing
rubenwardy: Have a look at the window title
rubenwardy: It should say [OpenGl something
jonadab: Window title says "Minetest 5.4.1 [Main Menu]"
Jonathon: you have to actually be playing
Jonathon: the main menu will not rell you
Jonathon: *tell
Jonathon: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/866155388407644190/unknown.png
jonadab: Actually playing is not really possible under these circumstances.
Warr1024: Maybe a 5.5.0 thing, but definitely a making too many assumptions about my fonts and not fitting thing.
Warr1024: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/866155534456586260/unknown.png
Warr1024: All other tabs look fine with those font settings, it's only that one that's messed up.
Warr1024: To be "actually playing" all you really have to do is launch it with the --go command line option (possible some others) so it loads a world.
Warr1024: I guess you may have to navigate the menus well enough to create a world.
jonadab: Ok, so if I "Start Game", F5, and alt-tab out and back in, the top left says "Minetest 5.4.1 | FPS: 28 | drawtime: 3ms | dtime jitter: 82.7% | view range: 190 | RTT: 1.00ms
jonadab: But the actual number of FPS is limited to however many times I can alt-tab out and back in per second, which is less than useful.
Jonathon: you have debug open in the game
Jonathon: im talking about the application bar
Jonathon: same place you read "Minetest 5.4.1 [Main Menu]"
jonadab: Oh, the title bar.
jonadab: Minetest 5.4.1 [OpenGL 4.4.0]
Jonathon: yeah
jonadab: It's fine, I am not normally a Windows user anyway, this is a very temporary setup.
jonadab: I will just wait until I get my computer set up correctly and then worry about it.
Warr1024: Yeah, OpenGL 4.4 doesn't sound suspicious to me.  Could be a driver issue, but yeah, could be not worth worrying about at this point :-)
jonadab: At which point I'll have things like gdb and the ability to compile Minetest myself if I want.
jonadab: Which is not something I would care to attempt on Windows.
jonadab: I just asked because I figured maybe it was a common issue and there was a stock solution to it.
Warr1024: I discovered catchsegv and now I run MT under it all the time, just in case I catch an obscure crash :-D
jonadab: Is that better than just turning core dumps on?
Warr1024: It's like gdb but only the few parts I actually ever learned how to use :-D
jonadab: Ah.
jonadab: I see.
Warr1024: Presumably a core dump is more thorough, but catchsegv or dumps from gdb are more human-readable.
jonadab: Yes, I mainly only use gdb to get a backtrace.
jonadab: One of the NetHack4 devs taught me how.
Warr1024: Heh, I learned it hunting my first MT crash bug, something involving menus or something way back in the day
Warr1024: or rather I learned how to use like 3 or 4 commands
jonadab: Yeah, bt (backtrace) is the main one I know.  I can do a couple of other things, like examine the value of a particular variable if I want.
jonadab: But backtrace is the main thing I can do with gdb that I can't do with printf()
jonadab: (And bugs in NH4 are extremely reproducible, consistently, because of the way the save system works.  Basically, if you encounter a bug, you ipso facto have a save file that will reproduce it reliably.)
jonadab: (This would likely not be possible for a real-time game like Minetest, but NetHack is turn-based.)
Warr1024: I guess it also depends on how much of the complete state of the program is represented in the save files and how much is not.
Warr1024: MT for example uses RNG and doesn't store RNG seeds in the world for all things, so you'd get different behavior on retries.
Warr1024: Actually I think mapgen determinism was only fixed recently, things like dungeons and decorations used to be similar but not the same in repeated worlds of the same seed...
AristotIe: if anyone is farmiliar with tubelib_addons1, is there a way to add crops to the list that the harvester harvests?
specing: yupusure there is
specing: see how bls does it
AristotIe: where do I find that specific copy of the mod though?
specing: bls_custom
AristotIe: hmm, when I try to replicate the code in bls_custom to add crops, it gives me this error: "...inetest/games/minetest_game/mods/mp_custom/harvester.lua:2: attempt to index global 'tubelib_addons1' (a nil value)"  that's the line `local tn = tubelib_addons1.register_tree_node`
Krock: don't put custom mods into minetest_game/
y5nw: Have you set mod dependencies correctly?
AristotIe: mmm, well, I haven't made a depends.txt file, but I thought that was just for convinience
AristotIe: here's the full code btw `if not minetest.get_modpath("tubelib_addons1") then return end
AristotIe: local tn = tubelib_addons1.register_tree_node
AristotIe: local fn = tubelib_addons1.register_farming_node
AristotIe: if minetest.get_modpath("cucina_vegana") then
AristotIe: fn("cucina_vegana:rosemary_6", "cucina_vegana:rosemary 2", "cucina_vegana:rosemary_1")
AristotIe: fn("cucina_vegana:flax_6", "cucina_vegana:flax_raw 2", "cucina_vegana:flax_1")
AristotIe: boy wow, never knew that kiwiirc sends multi-line messages as a bunch of different messages
sfan5: there are no multi-line messages on IRC
sfan5: that's why
AristotIe: oh.
specing: AristotIe: https://matrix.to/#/#minetest:libera.chat?via=libera.chat if you want a richer experience
Krock: FWIW, commands in IRC are separated by newline
Warr1024: Be aware that the Matrix bridges are still in a bit of a state of upheaval and they do still sometimes miss messages, or perhaps delay them indefinitely.
specing: nah, they work fine
Warr1024: :trollface:
Warr1024: For the most part they actually do work okay, but there are a few cases, like the MT bots in VanessaE's servers chat that only get relayed to the Matrix side for a couple minutes or something after they restart.
Benrob0329: Matrix having a "richer experience" entirely depends on what Matrix client and what IRC client you use
Jonathon: the matrix <> liberia bridge also has uptime issues
specing: liberia hmm
Jonathon: *libera
Krock: libery
Krock: library
Jordach: all bots on libera seem to have uptime issues
sfan5: clear sign you should just come to irc ;)
wsor4035: irc is still meh
Jordach: no even my bouncer fails that sfan5
Jordach: it disconnects after a day due to wank dns queries
Jordach: freenode did it too
sfan5: haven't seen that here
Warr1024: No chat network is any better than any other, but all chat networks are each worse than all others.
Krock: wise words. I'll print that on a t-shirt
x_: i'll take 10
DivideByZero: I've been experiencing doors disapearing right before my eyes on my server.  Is this any known bug/symptom, and/or has anyone had this issue before?
DivideByZero: Lambs blood on the door knob won't do?
AndrewYu: Epic blocks do not check privs in epic command blocks for kick and ban
independent56: I'm on the train back home and haha the dual carriageway is pathetic. This is why i use trains and not cehicles on the server.
AndrewYu: xD\
independent56: Iam back home.i travveled a distance equivlent to birmingham-london.
independent56: This guy is celeron56, doing what c55 did back in the 10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLbzPQoHkXI
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: CSM: Do not index files within hidden directories 1340bee27 https://git.io/JWMqH (152021-07-17T14:44:06Z)
minty4329049203: woahhhh gnarly
fatalerror420: that's like totally rad dude
fatalerror420: like super nar-nar
fatalerror420: physically revolting at what i said
IvanGorinich: Hello guys! i have roleplay server in minetest
IvanGorinich: but i have zero online
IvanGorinich: becouse i havent IP adress or domain in clearnet
IvanGorinich: can anybody help me please
IvanGorinich: i wanna build full roleplay server
Warr1024: The MT server list software is open source and anyone can download and self-host it.  An alternate server list URL can be configured in settings in each client.
* specing: roleplays a real IP address
Krock: you have an IP address of your server unless your ISP puts you behind some NAT which makes port-forwarding kinda difficult
specing: Krock: they are behind cgnat
Krock: aah okay
Krock: VPS in that case
Warr1024: I've seen some success using the yggdrasil overlay network
Warr1024: unfortunately there aren't a ton of players on yggdrasil and it's a pretty big pain to setup for average users
Warr1024: You can get a VPS yourself to run your server
Warr1024: you could also pool resources with friends to get a very cheap VPS just to act as a forwarder with an IP address, then use wireguard or something to connect to it and forward ports, so you can self-host.
Warr1024: you may be able to get someone with a VPS to provide you with an open port via forwarding over VPN, but some kind of trust relationship will need to be involved because the person with the VPS has certain content requirements they'll have to meet with their provider.
Kelp: Okay I am back.
Kelp: I opened up a pop os live session and in it I get 75 fps
Kelp: But on my kde neon installation i only get 50
Kelp: Makes no sense
Warr1024: Could be a GPU-compositing WM that's interfering with 3D apps?
Jordach: is this singleplayer or multiplayer
Jordach: i have a sneaky feeling
Swift110-mobile: hey
rndusr: hi
Andrew: When can minetest have a stable forum?
independent56: Ahaha i had a compound dream where i went into LEO a few times, told minetest IRC about this achivement and "yeah, it might have been a dream though", and then i woke up from that dream.
BuckarooBanzai: Andrew: when the old one dies ;)
independent56: thats wy there were DDOS attacks!
independent56: i found the phrase "WordPress Developers will drive you down a dark path of coding & customization" in some article. It is aimed at sma buisness owners. "dark path" shouldn't have been used.
Wuzzy: I really like world-aligned textures: https://satoshiupload.com/images/wX8kIHY46H.png
Wuzzy: its all the same node
sfan5: neat
Wuzzy: Hades Revisited 0.10.0 is here! https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=397361#p397361
Miniontoby2: Hey
Miniontoby2: So there is a mod by cheapie called digiscreen and he made a lua script to convert image to table and i tried to make it python
Miniontoby2: but i dont understand why io.write is being used without opening a file
Miniontoby2: (Script: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/cheapie/e4edc2ea274750c235c984d972703803/raw/5406950a90b73260051784f79b4acab86bc204f0/image2table.lua )
Miniontoby2: Can someone explain me what the io.write does in this script???
sfan5: it writes to standard output, so the console
Miniontoby2: So does thay mean it just prints it
Miniontoby2: So io.write -> print
Miniontoby2: Or not?
Miniontoby2: Or am i misunderstanding this?
sfan5: yes
Miniontoby2: Yes, what?? Correct or incorrect??
Miniontoby2: I guess that ypu mean im correct but im not sure
SwissalpS: io.write prints to std out as sfan5 said. Not sure what you mean with "io.write -> print", maybe "io.write prints to std out" ?
Miniontoby2: I meaned can i replace io.write with print?
Miniontoby2: Because as i said i am rewriting the code to python
SwissalpS: mostly yes, but doesn't python also have io.write that can also be used to write to other destinations than std out
Miniontoby2: But is it possible? Because i dont want to make it more difficult than it is rn
Miniontoby2: Python may error on it if i dont open file
SwissalpS: well, this is a Minetest channel, most ppl here use lua, you may want to ask python specific questions on a python channel :)
Miniontoby2: Py sscript ik how to run, but lua i dont so thats why (and NO i dont want to learn it)
SwissalpS: they would know the details better
Miniontoby2: Oke but so you say i can try replace it
sfan5: just try and see if it works
Miniontoby2: Oke thx for the help
Miniontoby2: Bye
Kelp: It's singleplayer @Jordach but it also is low in multiplayer
Wuzzy: So, Hades Revisited ... if you played this before, feel free to ASK ME ANYTHING
specing: Hi Wuzzy. Nice to see that it is NOT on monopolyhub :)
Wuzzy: hahaha
specing: Wuzzy: is it meant to be singleplayer only?
Wuzzy: for now, yes
Wuzzy: multiplayer is not tested
Wuzzy: i dont have a real concept for multiplayer anyway. protection is ignored as well...
Wuzzy: i think it will work OK if you play with people who are "on your side" i.e. dont intend to grief ;)... but agian, not tested
specing: Wuzzy: Hmm, I was thinking about a concept of a base-less Minetest game
specing: no area protections whatsoever
specing: Everything you own is stored in your inventory, or in portable chests
Wuzzy: you've just reinvented the concept of anarchy servers lol
Wuzzy: that's basically Minecraft which also has zero protection by default
specing: Nah, by "anarchy server" I understand that they still have area protection, but are just unmoderated
specing: /with few, if any, rules
Wuzzy: thats not what i meant
specing: Wuzzy: But imagine that you could pack groups of nodes into bunches, which you could deploy. Like digtrons
Wuzzy: hmm
specing: so you'd have a temporary unprotected base whenever you want, and pack it before you go
Wuzzy: i dont think ill add digtrons to the game. too complex and wont really fit the game style anyway
specing: ehh, digtrons are simple. But they are 1000% overpowered
Wuzzy: Oh, i DO plan tools of overpower 😉 for fast terraforming
specing: and I wasn't suggesting to add them or to change your game
Wuzzy: its ok
specing: Was just thinking aloud about a new concept with temporary bases
specing: You could craft a "node crate" that carriers up to N nodes (craft more to carry more?). And you'd punch several nodes with this carrier to crate them
specing: Well, you'd punch a single node, and it would crate them all
specing: (and you'd somehow tell it which ones to crate)
Warr1024: Re: approaches to area protection: in NodeCore we generally don't bother with these (external mods are supported but rarely used), the game is just hard enough that learning how to grief takes too much work for the average griefer, and it's PvE-focused enough that we rarely have issues. :-D
Warr1024: Ironically I'm planning on anti-protection features.  There's a mod that prevents players from taking their inventory with them when they leave the game (nc_yctiwy) and I'm planning on integrating it into the base game.
Wuzzy: thats the most absurd mod name I have every seen. 😆
Warr1024: You Can't Take It With You
Warr1024: There's an absurder one: You Can't Touch It Either by Avicennia.
independent56: Haha see whilst you can, PHP being horrible: http://www.menestralia.es
independent56: (a big php error for some sysadmin to fix)
twoelk: the "under Zero" aka unternull game based servers of the all-water worlds sometimes had a nothing protected you loose everything on disconect policy
independent56: I dislike GNU's article on "free software is not Open Source". it is insane, bashing open source, and saying "nah, stay away from propietary software", Matlab is propietary, but it's brilliant. propiatary software is important to keep software a buisness and not just some hobby.
independent56: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html
* Pexin: mutters "capitalist"
specing: > propiatary software is important to keep software a buisness and not just some hobby.
specing: yeah, no
specing: I dislike both terms: "free software" and "open source". I prefer "libre software" myself
specing: free software makes people think it's free as in gratis
specing: "open source" has no philosophy attached
mrkubax10: How to grant privilege to someone on minetestserver? Method on wiki involves auth.txt which doesn't exist
beanzilla: /grant someone priv
beanzilla: If you know the priv that is.
Krock: join with the admin account
mrkubax10: Yeah I know but no one have privilege to grant to others (new server)
GNUHacker: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
mrkubax10: Krock: you mean admin username?
Krock: @mrkubax10: specify "name = mrkubax10"  in mientest.conf
Krock: this way your name will have admin rights
mrkubax10: i will try
twoelk: maybe the server admin needs to do "/grantme all"
Krock: twoelk: first you must become a server admin
Krock: that's where we're at
mrkubax10: Krock: thanks it worked
Krock: !next
MinetestBot: Another satisfied customer. Next!
independent56: is it just me or does libreoffice suck? I like google docs, but it isn't powerful enough, and microsoft office costs as well as being owned by microsoft.
twoelk: is there actually a command to list all possible privs of a world in contrast to listing just the ones the player actually has?
specing: it does
specing: independent56: use LaTeX
independent56: Hmm... i'm scared of the ddg image results tbh
specing: ?
Kelp: independent56: Try ONLYOFFICE
Krock: onlyoffice is re-styled libreoffice
twoelk: abiword is ok for just writing, duno what platforms it works on though
independent56: https://www.onlyoffice.com/en/download-desktop.aspx There is no linux download and it is propietary. i only use propietary if i absolutely have to.
Krock: hmm weird. I might be wrong
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Add wallmounted support for plantlike and plantlike_rooted nodes (#11… 13f4d8cc0 https://git.io/JWzm3 (152021-07-15T19:19:59Z)
sfan5: independent56: what are you missing from libreoffice?
independent56: (unrelated) In fact, i use protonmail (propietary sofftware). it works fine. i dislike how gnu says "oh grr propietary software. Despite it making money and feeding some of our developers, grr".
independent56: I miss stuff like really intelligent spellchecking (privacy not included), and all the keybaord shortcuts i learnt, and the alt+/ for quickly doing what you like.
Kelp: Protonmail isn't proprietary
independent56: haha yeah, is hould do some basic ddg before i assume. but brilliant!
independent56: it's not free, but it's open source, so brilliant!
independent56: phew, no php!
Wuzzy: wallmounted plantlike nodes just dropped! https://satoshiupload.com/images/SKaf2dOXs0.png
Wuzzy: *happy Wuzzy noises*
Krock: on spot
jluc: :-D
specing: Wuzzy: it looks ... weird...to say the least
Wuzzy: hehe
Wuzzy: just messing around with MTG
Wuzzy: could also be useful for corals or wall crystals
Wuzzy: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/17455197/120680769-0226bc00-c49b-11eb-95db-b351aa23c7ba.mp4
Wuzzy: (↑ not from my code but looks basically the same)
independent56: yay! i will totally use this!
Kelp: Wuzzy is cool
Bombo: hi, is there a way to get the location of a 'LuaEntitySAO' somehow? in game as admin or digging in the sqlite in bash?
Bombo: i'm missing a draconis:ice_dragon :)
Bombo: i mean ;(
Wuzzy: good question, i wish i knew ... :/
sfan5: there is a way to do this
GreenXenith: If youve got worldedit, //lua for _, e in pairs(minetest.luaentities) do if e.name == "draconis:ice_dragon" then minetest.chat_send_player("yourname", minetest.pos_to_string(e.object:get_pos())) end end
sfan5: ^ assuming the entity is currently loaded
GreenXenith: Also arent luaentities stored in a plaintext file? You could just grep that?
GreenXenith: or is that a legacy thing
sfan5: entities were never stored in a plaintext file
GreenXenith: Might also be pipeworks thing
GreenXenith: be a*
Wuzzy: the real question is how to get a list of all entities, loaded or not ...
Warr1024: Mapblocks are probably zlib compressed, but after decompression you could likely just search for the name string occurring somewhere inside the binary data and you probably don't have to worry too much about false positives
Warr1024: The simplest answer is to use the full version of the "clearobjects" command and then you will know there are zero.
GreenXenith: There should really be an object cache
GreenXenith: Having to parse the entire thing whenever you need to get a list of existing entities is slow
sfan5: when do you ever need to do that?
GreenXenith: Clearobjects
GreenXenith: And in this case
GreenXenith: where someone wants to find a specific entity instance
GreenXenith: its a common thing to do in games that we cant do in Minetest
GreenXenith: Would be trivial enough to roll your own cache though
sfan5: clearobjects does not require doing that
Bombo: nice, but i tried the //lua line but i get 'Newlines are not permitted in chat'
GreenXenith: Then remove any newlines you accidentally copied
Bombo: strange, there is no newline
sfan5: at the end?
Bombo: nope
Bombo: maybe minetest.chat_send_player tries to print newlines?
Bombo: hm this works //lua minetest.chat_send_player("bombo", "hi\nthere")
Warr1024: Maybe after this ordeal is over you'll remember to get your ice dragons spayed or neutered, and possibly microchipped.
Warr1024: Real talk, a mob microchipping mod that allows you to teach selected ents via modstorage or something might be useful to prevent this sorta thing.
* twoelk: deletes his similar thought and muses on learning to type faster
Bombo: ok sorry got it, indeed a cp fail
Bombo: Warr1024: great idea :)
Bombo: there is a dragon teleport gem, but even that doesn't work sometimes
Bombo: so this is the prob now 21:59 <sfan5> ^ assuming the entity is currently loaded
GreenXenith: Theres a reason pipeworks has its own entity file
Bombo: i took a look into the map.sqlite it has just lots of binary blobs
Bombo: <Warr1024> Mapblocks are probably zlib compressed <- you mean these? so i could 'just' unzip each block then :)
Warr1024: Possibly yeahh
Warr1024: I mean it's sort of likely they're headerless, so straight up command line gzip might not do it
Warr1024: but if you can decompress them, you should find a binary blob that you can't necessarily parse, but you probably CAN grep for long enough strings
Warr1024: like the entity's full name (draconis:ice_dragon) would probably appear somewhere within the decompressed data if there's one in that mapblock somewhere
Warr1024: then you can calculate coordinates from the mapblock index, teleport there, and use //lua or whatever to find the exact spot
Bombo: hm how to calc the coordinates, i see pos = 33517557 for example
sfan5: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/world_format.txt#L242
Bombo: nice
* CWz: wonders what would happen if he would register a priv called 'all' and then did /grantme all
entuland: can't see any checks to prevent that
entuland: reading this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/8cc04e0cb4fb186092732c7687543f67b4628c96/builtin/game/chat.lua#L236 you'd end up with a privilege which can only be added / removed along with all the others
robyndrake: and I do have load_mod_screwdriver = true before load_mod_pipeworks = true in world.mt
robyndrake: joy.
specing: maybe version mismatch?
specing: maybe screwdriver mod that you have does not create a global object called screwdriver?
robyndrake: ok, I'll check that out, thank you for the tip
robyndrake: all is working now
specing: robyndrake: so, what was the issue?
robyndrake: the version
robyndrake: used screwdriver2 and all is well now
specing: k
ghoti: So.. I've grabbed a copy of my mt directory with mods, but I would like to run it on a fresh map.sqlite and players.sqlite for testing new mods. How do I initialize fresh sqlite databases? I want a fresg map, auth and players. Should I just truncate copies of the existing sqlite files?
ghoti: It would be great if the server would just generate missing files once it needs them, but I have found no documentation that suggests it does that.
Hawk777: Can’t you just delete the files altogether?
Hawk777: I’m not certain whether it works or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised, and it seems easy to test.
Warr1024: Rename them in case you change your mind later :-)
Andrew: Hi. Two questions: 1) Is there an easy way to display Chinese on MT? I still couldn't get the fonts set-up 2) Is there a quest system that reads quest files from stuff like YML or JSON, that works like epic blocks, but have no physical representation of them?
ghoti: Hawk777: that worked. I actually didn't expect it to. Thanks very much. :)
Andrew: How do I make EPIC blocks *NOT* show waypoints to players?
Andrew: It's bad that people taking the quest can easily see where they should go next
Andrew: Is there a way to automatically set a user mode after connect with the IRC mod?
hlqkj: Hi all! I have a question: reading lua_api.txt I get that paramtype is required to be 'light' when the nodebox drawtype is used. Why it is so?
calcul0n_: hlqkj, from what i see it's not required, it's just the value used in the example
hlqkj: hey, thank you! but then why this line: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L999 ?
calcul0n_: ho it's paramtype, i was thinking about paramtype2
calcul0n_: i don't really understand this one in fact
hlqkj: trying to figure out how to stop stairs nodes (but not only those) being "transparent" to sunlight
sfan5: sunlight_propagates = false?
hlqkj: thats the theory... but if i build an hollow cube of nodes that do have paramtype set to light, you can't seem to get darkness insite them
hlqkj: *inside of it... darn language barrier
hlqkj: it's weird to have blocks supposed to be solid (eg stone slopes/stairs) letting light through them
jonadab: I find it _useful_ that you can use blocks that appear solid, to hide light sources in certain kinds of builds.
wwar: It is useful, question is, is it a bug or a feature? 🤔
hlqkj: eh..
hlqkj: last occurrence of this we had, was with the castle_masonry:stonewall block. that's not even a stair (hence, in that particular case i just fixed the node def and set paramtype to none)
hlqkj: but with slopes/stairs i dunno if i can safely change the paramtype or that will break something, since that line in lua_api.txt i linked earlier
entuland: they're probably implemented like that cause of the non-full block, imagine a wall with stairs placed just so that you get a full 1/4 of the surface covered with "holes" - light should be 1/4 attenuated
hlqkj: ah k, that makes sense
entuland: I doubt it's easy or feasible to do such computation depending on the block geometry, it's just easier to let light through
Warr1024: Nodes can only either allow light to pass in and through them, or not pass into them at all.  There's no way to allow a node to have light pass into it (e.g. to light up the space within the stair) but not back out (e.g. passing all the way through).
Warr1024: There's also no protocol for specifying the paths that light can or cannot take through a node.
Warr1024: My mod https://content.minetest.net/packages/Warr1024/nc_stairs/ actually has a solution for this problem, but you're not gonna like it :-D
hlqkj: lets see
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Df458 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix documented default colors for set_sky 1368143ed https://git.io/JCVho (152021-07-14T15:14:45Z)
independent56: Do any of you want to read my rant on bromcom, the horrible system used by my school?
Warr1024: Eh, I'm always down for a canned rant I guess :-/
independent56: http://56i.duckdns.org/wordpress/2021/07/14/fuck-bromcom/
Warr1024: "Bromcom" sounds like romcom for bros as implemented by broadcom.
independent56: website is at bromcom.com, if you're intrested.
Warr1024: Institutional shit always sucks.  They have basically a hostage audience, so they have no incentive to improve.  The people who make the decision about what to use are not the people who have to suffer the full consequences of that choice, so they only base their decision on what they care about, usually price, and then they fail to account for the costs they incur downstream from people having to work around bad systems.
Warr1024: You can hate on this one piece of software all you want, but you should be confident that it's the best choice possible because the only way they'd change it is if they found something worse.  It's not the product that sucks, it's the incentive structure.
independent56: Ah, makes sense... FOSS is always better but cheaper... If only i could found a viable solution (i wish i had the right search terms). Of course, "Anybody can edit it!" has the same consequences as wikipedia got.
Warr1024: People everywhere love a good "if people have the freedom to make their own choices they might make bad ones" moral panic.  Even FOSS isn't immune by a longshot.
independent56: Yeah, i remember what happened with tha tuniversity and the linux kernel. Even the vetting process for FOSS may not be sufficent in some cases
Jordach: No FOSS is terrible for long term cost effectiveness
independent56: why? please explain more
Jordach: Imagine using it until you find showstopping bugs which immediately start affecting your income
Jordach: At which point you’ve already filed the relevant issues and the maintainer response is fuck off
Jordach: Not supported
independent56: hmm
independent56: Make a fork >:-)
Jordach: Not only that you need an experienced programmer in the language of the software and also training them for familiarity
Jordach: At which point the fork is maintained but is no longer able to merge upstream because of merge conflicts
independent56: hmm
independent56: i guess i will be the only person who sues it on my server
Jordach: So it now means you no longer receive potential security fixes from upstream, and now you have to pay a full team of programmers which equals the original loss
Warr1024: FOSS is terrible for long-term cost-effectiveness, but it's the last S, not the preceding FOS, that's the major cause of that.
Jordach: Yes
Jordach: Software support that you host yourself is expensive
Jordach: Literally in both time and cost
Warr1024: All software sucks, FOSS just has its own particular way of doing so.
independent56: hah
Hawk777: Heh. Closed source software is exactly the same (I run into a problem, why would $BIG_CORPORATION even care about me, I’m just a little guy who doesn’t matter) except now I can’t solve my problem at all.
Hawk777: Some is no doubt better, but not all.
Jordach: No the problem is a lack of guaranteed contracted support clause
Hawk777: And how many pieces of software have you bought, as an individual, an ordinary person (not a company), that have one of those?
independent56: I only use FOSS on my webbook (wordpress, dokuwiki, xampp, stikked, bodhi linux...)
independent56: And my server runs fine.
Jordach: Enough to break 4 digits and closer to 5 digits in £
GNUHacker: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html
MinetestBot: Wuzzy: Jul-10 08:55 UTC <Krock> https://krock-works.uk.to/u/patches/0001-Fix-some-implicit-hard-and-soft-dependencies.patch
MinetestBot: Wuzzy: Jul-10 16:34 UTC <Krock> also "depends = mcl_autogroup" in _mcl_autogroup/mod.conf
Wuzzy: Krock: I no longer maintain MineClone 2 since months now, lol.
Biggvs_Richardvs: Is this the right Forum for mod debugging/issues?
Biggvs_Richardvs: The Rangedweapons mod is crashing my server
Biggvs_Richardvs: But it's a super cool mod - just want to fix it
Biggvs_Richardvs: mods/rangedweapons/ammo.lua:112: bad argument #2 to 'random' (interval is empty)
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood
Biggvs_Richardvs: Looks like the mod has been updated as recently as March of this year
Kelp: I'm getting really bad FPS in minetest and supertuxkart. It seems to be capped at 50 fps even tho I changed the cap to 75
Kelp: And in minecraft on the highest settings I got like 300 fps
Kelp: And some things like using the bow drop my fps to 32
Extex: How can I tell if my sound file is stereo or mono?
Benrob0329: If you open it in a sound editor and it has a Left and a Right channel, it's stereo
Benrob0329: If it only has one channel, then it's mono
Benrob0329: Many audio players (or a tool like mediainfo) will also tell you
rndusr: hey, doc.minetest.net's tls cert has seemed to expired
rndusr: is there anything being done about that? is the docs in a different place?
rndusr: also, on the wiki, is registration open?
rndusr: because there's no sign up link.
Benrob0329: <automated announcer voice> Please step to the back of the line, all representatives are currently busy with everyone else who has reported this already. </automated announcer voice>
rndusr: Benrob0329: sorry
Benrob0329: You're good, there's just been a lot of people reporting it (and to be fair, it's not getting fixed for whatever reason)
Benrob0329: Just saying "we know" to everyone gets a little boring, y'know?
rndusr: is there a mirror that you know of?
Benrob0329: The wayback machine?
rndusr: ooh
* rndusr: forgot
Kimapr: rdnusr: the cert may have expired, but doesn't it still work?
entuland: ignoring the warning it should work, yes
jonadab: Some web browsers make that easier to do than others; also, some of them give you better details about exactly what's wrong, than others.
jonadab: Personally, I kind of want a global setting for "don't worry about expired certs that expired  within the last 30 days."
Warr1024: If they have an "ignore certs expired in the last 30 days" option, then eventually more and more users will enable it until people just stop reporting the problem at all until 30 days after the expiration, and then the problem will shift 30 days later.  This will cause CAs to reduce certificate lifetime by 30 days to compensate and de facto remain within the standards.
Warr1024: Ultimately it just wouldn't work because the browser makers are on the same side as the certificate issuers, and if the weren't then the whole system wouldn't have worked in the first place.
independent_: You would be suprised by how many teachers thought my CPU hairbrush was called a "motherboard"
Benrob0329: I would not be, most people are not technically literate
independent_: yeah, they know the basics, like "move ouse and press two bars to play youtube videio", but they don't even know shortcuts exist.
independent_: But the TA i spend the most time with has inherited some knowladge, like some keybinds, and basic programming. But they haven't advanced to the stage that they can read a verse such as "The design is Unix-like, although the error handling is Go-like; failing calls return values of type error rather than error numbers. " without getting confused
rubenwardy: I mean, that's not a very good "verse" anyway
rubenwardy: communications is a two way thing, you need to communicate with enough context and adjust working based on the audience
rubenwardy: *wording
independent_: I can't even share the horror of  "php: a fractal of bad design" with teachers, as hey can't understand it.
independent_: https://pastebin.com/EDqKytmN Is a blog post i wrote in english because the only alternative was to write about football (imho a horrible sport).
jonadab: Is there such a thing as a non-horrible sport?
gh00p: ping pong?
specing: horrible?
Benrob0329: Swim?
Krock: chess?
rubenwardy: ?muteme 1m
rubenwardy: .
rubenwardy: ?muteme 1m
GreenXenith: Rubenwardy this is the irc bridge.
GreenXenith: Discord bots cant see you.
rubenwardy: was wondering if it would mute the bridge
Warr1024: :trollface:
Warr1024: bridge uses webhooks anyway, so I think it wouldn't work right even if it could.
independent56: ?muteme 1 m
independent56: hmm... i have been unable to hack the mainframe, damn!
GreenXenith: And if youre going to mess with bridge, better to do so in -hub
independent56: ha
independent56: isn't that the restircted channel?
rubenwardy: -hub is technically stricter moderated
rubenwardy: but it's also dead apart from t+11 so \o/
Calinou: https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/new-world-generation-java-available-testing
Calinou: a lot of those screenshots remind me of Minetest's mapgens, or even the default textures
Calinou: probably coindicence, but it's a bit funny :)
Krock: mgv7 or 5
Calinou: mgv7 probably
Calinou: but even mgv6 sometimes
robyndrake: Hello, I have the screwdriver mod loaded in world.mt and I'm trying to load pipeworks, also set to true in world.mt, but I get  /home/minetest/minetest/bin/../mods/pipeworks/devices.lua:168: attempt to index global 'screwdriver' (a nil value)
robyndrake: Any help would be greatly appreciated
specing: Sounds like you're pretty screwed there
robyndrake: ha ha
robyndrake: I may have found my mistake
robyndrake: still the same error
robyndrake: what do I need to pastebin?
robyndrake: any direction to the answer would be appreciated
robyndrake: nevermind found the answer
Andrew: robyndrake: I don't think it supports TLS
robyndrake: it does
robyndrake: in the advanced settings
Andrew: Then, no idea
robyndrake: you have to look in it's config.lua
Andrew: If i needed it I will use a trick: Set up a plain socket that fowards stuff to a TLS connection (eg by using a simple openssl and netcat) on localhost, and connect MT to there, or just use ZNC or something, it doesn't matter too much
Andrew: If i needed it I will use a trick: Set up a plain socket that fowards stuff to a TLS connection (eg by using a simple openssl and netcat) on localhost, and connect MT to there, or just use ZNC or something, it doesn't matter too much
robyndrake: the setting is irc.secure = true
robyndrake: all I needed
robyndrake: and the right irc.port
Andrew: ig you're good to go then
jastiv: my mapgen went away and left me with only stone,  How do I fix it.
Jonathon: go into settings, select mg_flags, and restore default
Jonathon: most likely, something screwed them up
jastiv: apparently restoring default did not fix it.  I only generate stone on maps from all games, mineclone2 nodecore, minetest etc
Jonathon: to verify, you have all of them checked, and hit save?
Jonathon: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/863956219638710272/unknown.png
Jonathon: if so, can you upload your minetest.conf file to pastebin or similar site so i can take a look?
jastiv: I don't know what mod I installed, but it always sets the water_level  = -31000
jastiv: I removed the nobiome flag and was able to get plants back, but it seems to be missing water.  I did install the waterworld game though.
jastiv: but then why should it mess up map gen for other games.
Warr1024: check if your minetest.conf got changed, I think settings can leak out into there and then affect all new worlds and get baked into map_meta.txt
Pillager_desert: im back
mrkubax10: Is it possible to compile only server without graphics?
Emerald2: Lots of people do it that way, yes.
mrkubax10: How to do this (Do I need CMake flag or something)
Emerald2: Not sure how up to date this is. https://dev.minetest.net/Compiling_Minetest
mrkubax10: thanks
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix build on Ubuntu 16.04 and macOS 135c89a0e https://git.io/JCUDs (152021-07-12T10:03:39Z)
mrkubax10: How to enable mod on minetestserver?
sfan5: edit world.mt while the server is shut down
rubenwardy: If you have a few servers, I prefer to install mods to   worlds/worldname/worldmods     as it makes managing them a bit easier
mrkubax10: thanks for fast replies
mazes_81: Hi, I just noticed that notabug is not reachable because of ddos. I'm surprised and ask myself who wants to attack such  "minor" platforms
Warr1024: you can start an MT server that only has 3 people, and then end up having a dispute and banning one of those people, and then get DDoSsed by them.  Being obscure is only a pretty weak defense, and notabug is not all THAT obscure.
specing: mazes_81: big platforms who feel threatened by them
specing: or other small platforms that want to gain users fast
mazes_81: clearly, I'm not used to open self hosted services, far to imagine every way people can react. (btw can't host anything, my isp box don't manage port forwarding if you don't use their dns ??? :( ??? )
specing: mazes_81: you can't put it into bridge mode?
Warr1024: There are a few public minetest servers that people run without the ability to forward ports.  Options for it include (1) overlay networks like yggdrasil, or (2) wireguard and a friend with a VPS and available ports.
Warr1024: You can't be listed in the official server list if an overlay network is required to connect, though yggdrasil might actually have enough servers on it by now that running a separate server list specifically for yggdrasil hosts might make sense...
mazes_81: not even a bridge mode available. (last ISP I used had but bridge made phone unavailable)
mazes_81: not really important for me, else I would have switch operator really earlier
Warr1024: You can get a decent entry-level VPS for very close to $5 USD per month, so it's pretty easy to accumulate enough self-hosted stuff that it makes more sense to offsite most of it anyway.
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove hardcoded "You died." message in chat (#11443) 136cdb150 https://git.io/JCkBj (152021-07-12T18:32:27Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix revoke debug privs not reliably turn off stuff (#11409) 13b7b5aad https://git.io/JCkRe (152021-07-12T18:32:18Z)
Swift110-mobile: are any of you using a joystick for minetest?
entuland: a joystick or a controller?
rubenwardy: Linux refers to controllers as joysticks, which is why Minetest calls them joysticks
entuland: I asked to know about the actual device, maybe they're having troubles with it, if I recall correctly I have been able to use a controller on Minetest, never tried a joystick though (as in the device that looks like a flight stick)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04hecktest -> 03minetest/minetest: Refactor video driver name retrieval (#11413) 131d25d1f https://git.io/Jcjh5 (152021-07-11T07:50:34Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04x2048 -> 03minetest/minetest: Improve shadow rendering with non-default camera FOV (#11385) 13f5706d4 https://git.io/JCvEG (152021-07-11T15:15:19Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04x2048 -> 03minetest/minetest: Avoid draw list and shadow map update in the same frame to reduce dti… 13effb535 https://git.io/JCvN3 (152021-07-11T17:57:29Z)
Krock: !c 100**2/99**2
MinetestBot: 1.0203040506070808
independent56: How dare you break the silence? i thought today would be a great time of silence, but your silly calculation takes the spotlight >:-(
robyndrake: Please, with the irc mod, how do I get it to connect to a tls irc network?
Warr1024: Is there any way to get falling damage to process if enable_damage is false?
Extex: Is there a function for a tool definition like on_dig but on the tool's side? (Or does on_dig work?)
Pillager_desert: need update for mineclone 2 to android user can use bow and snowball, also add trade system to villager
independent56: To label my disks, i use some rough paper tape and pen, because "it's what i have".
independent56: to use the disk partition names is cleaner, but it requires plugging them in.
independent56: I need to label bcause using serial numbers is horrible, and sometimes the alabels cover up the serial numbers.
specing: all disks so far came with a white label and there's usually enough space there left to put down some markings
Krock: !tell Wuzzy https://krock-works.uk.to/u/patches/0001-Fix-some-implicit-hard-and-soft-dependencies.patch
MinetestBot: Krock: I'll pass that on when Wuzzy is around
independent56: i wish i could actually draw on it without a sharpie... ugh!
independent56: turns out hexchat crashes if i do "^f SSD".
Krock: ^f SSD
independent56: crtl+f
independent56: only if your chat history is huge
independent56: "<SwissalpS> yeah, ssd fails without sound :p" Which is why i make backups.
Ingar: independent56: cookies for disk labels
independent56: huh?
Ingar: independent56 | I need to label bcause using serial numbers is horrible, and sometimes the alabels cover up the serial numbers.
independent56: i still dont get the "joke"
Ingar: it's not a joke
Ingar: I had to make a scene at work to get them to label their portable disks
Ingar: because I was tired of "guess the disk"
independent56: oh wow
independent56: yeah....you probably have a proper labelling thing there
Ingar: I do now :)
Ingar: I'm labelman
independent56: yay
independent56: a possible solution to label them is to use numbers, and some big index, but then that's just more accessible serial numbers... giving them names like "george" or "harry" may be nice, or you could dow hat i did and go "offsite backup" "onsite backup", or "old files don't touch!"
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Kalabasa -> 03minetest/minetest: Use `persistence` instead of `persist` in NoiseParams examples 1342fbc75 https://git.io/Jcx7w (152021-07-10T12:19:33Z)
independent56: i've been trying to use a sed command, but it wont work with my file structure. i have files with no file extension,a nd directories. i need to use a wildard to find and replace text.
sfan5: google > bash glob no extension
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Script API: Fix segfault in remove_detached_inventory 13b93bbfd https://git.io/Jcxd9 (152021-07-10T12:34:36Z)
independent56: The biggest risk i took was to log in to my wiki from the school network... so dangerous.
Krock: !tell Wuzzy also "depends = mcl_autogroup" in _mcl_autogroup/mod.conf
MinetestBot: Krock: I'll pass that on when Wuzzy is around
Hiligan: Hello, someone knows which convention get_yaw() follows for lua entities: CCW from +X or +Z axis? Docs states this for player entities, but not for lua ones... I should assume it's +X since that is for the (deprecated) player entity get_yaw()?
Krock: Hiligan: https://dev.minetest.net/Player
Krock: get_yaw goes from Z+ to X-  CCW
Krock: also the yaw functions are the same for players and entities
Hiligan: Krock, thank you
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04unknown -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix typo in lua_api.txt 132952201 https://git.io/Jch0y (152021-07-10T23:37:18Z)
independent56: Update: I will no longer focus on developing the OS. that is the purpose of my base. I will just make distro-specific apps and some chnages to the OS itself.
independent56: I'm just in the planning stage, where i don't lose much if i give up.
celeron55_: it's actually more painful to make and maintain a linux distro than to make an maintain an os from scratch
celeron55_: the latter is usually way more minimalist and doesn't get updates unless you make them
Benrob0329: But the former isn't usually all that useful until it becomes similar in work to the latter.
celeron55_: umm
TungHoang: Bot:D
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Warr1024 -> 03minetest/minetest: Add API for mods to hook liquid transformation events (#11405) 1352128ae https://git.io/JcFbm (152021-07-09T13:08:40Z)
independent56: Haha... i will grab a version of a distro, and i wont update the distro seperately. the distro is now a different one.
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/cJ0XZrd Please, buy my a box!
appguru: You don't need a box for a couple disks
benrob0329: celeron55_: Any reason in particular that the minetest.net -> www.minetest.net redirect isn't DNS level?
sfan5: yes
sfan5: you cannot redirect the root of a domain
Hawk777: Isn’t it also better for SEO or something to use HTTP redirects to a single canonical domain?
rubenwardy: minetest.net is currently a HTTP redirect with a broken TLS certificate
independent56: I was using an old CPU as a hairbrush, and the thermal paste rubbed off... it's an AMD athlon ii.
appguru: Why would you use a processor as hairbrush?
independent56: It's what i have on hand - a 2008 processor, and the pins are brilliant.
* specing: still regularly uses 2008 computers
Guest86: hey guys does anyone know what license ruben wardy's modding book is under?
Guest86: I looked around on the git repo and the website but no mention of a license
* independent56: hates old computers, and has ripped out their memory and drives, foor personal use
independent56: I guess it's fine to use 2008 computers... if you retrofit them fro the furture (swappng out hardware, like the memory, disks, and wifi cards)
rubenwardy: Guest86: CC BY-SA 3.0
rubenwardy: it's in the README
Guest86: ty rubenwardy
specing: independent56: I use non-retrofited ones :P (though they got an SSD upgrade)
independent56: hmm... how dare you!
specing: Why wouldn't I
independent56: i actually regularly use a 2009 computer... as my server.
independent56: 32 bit greatness awaits!
specing: most software runs fine on them
independent56: I use a nice 2019 computer as my main.
specing: it's 32 bit? My 2008 computers are all 64bit
Krock: desktops.. perhaps. my 2008 laptop is also 32-bit
Krock: was okay for its time, but nowadays it's really not usable for anything aside office tasks
independent56: Samsung NC10
independent56: Lovely computer... works perectly
Guest86: haha I cant belive I missed that haha sorry for bugging you rubenwardy :)
rubenwardy: np
Guest86: im looking to include a html version of your book in something im making which is gplv3
Guest86: i hope thats acceptable lol i have no idea when it comes to figuring out if things with different licenses can be combined
appguru: I don't think CC BY-SA 3.0 and GPLv3 are compatible :/
appguru: I'd prefer it if you just linked the book though (or included it as a submodule), no need to copy & paste
appguru: See https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/licensing-considerations/compatible-licenses
Guest86: actually direct linking to the html version is something that I hadnt thought of and is perect for my application :)  ty for the insight :)
appguru: np
rubenwardy: yeah that keeps it up to date too
Guest86: and 990% of ppl these days are on an always on broadband connection so will have net connection
Guest86: interesting that web page states :GPLv3: The GNU General Public License version 3 was declared a “BY-SA–Compatible License” for version 4.0 on 8 October 2015
independent56: "kzz k k" is ths ound my hard drive is making (a backup one)
independent56: I'm lucky i use an ssd, so it's silent... ugh, i ahve to get a different hdd.
SwissalpS: yeah, ssd fails without sound :p
Guest86: OK rubenwardy i implemented it as a internel web browser that goes to your html link
Guest86: for the book
jluc: https://spritestack.io ?
MrB_: yay finally got hexchat to connect to here not freenode lol
Wuzzy: strange
Wuzzy: i cant seem to get the sun tonemap to work
Wuzzy: nothing works, no matter what i do
Wuzzy: any idea?
Wuzzy: i tried using a texture map, tried using set_sun(). still nothing
independent_: i love the "3-2-1 rule", but does the "2 types of media" mean that me using an SSD on my main, and a HDD on my backups is ok?
independent_: Haha my second hard drive goes "whoosh tick" once per second.
independent_: Now it's just going "hmmmmmmmmmm"
independent_: I just put the cover on the drive.. and wow, so much quieter.
mohammadashik: Hello!
j45: Hey
Swift110-mobile: hey all
meldrian: Aloha everyone
IvanGorinich: hello
wwar: 👋
IvanGorinich: i make roleplay server
IvanGorinich: but its rusian, who know rusian can join and play
IvanGorinich: you can make your own country or company
IvanGorinich: my server selfhosted and no comercial
IvanGorinich: commercial
* specing: roleplays as a disconnected player
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Panquesito7 -> 03minetest/minetest_game: Replace Travis CI with GitHub actions (#2661) 139270188 https://git.io/JcQCJ (152021-07-08T10:47:37Z)
MinetestBot: twoelk: Jul-07 19:56 UTC <benrob0329> Already planned, though I don't remember if I had any ideas for how to keep players from building there
independent_: IvanGorinich, i can understand 12% of russian. What's the name? i would love to visit and see how such a server works, and what elements i can silently take into my own.
IvanGorinich: https://mtroleplay.ivangorinich.repl.co/
IvanGorinich: but you need yggdrasil mesh net client to join
IvanGorinich: becouse i havent static IP
independent_: My ip changed two days ago. it seems to happen every two or three months
independent_: How dynamic is your IP? if it happens once per week, then it's fine.
IvanGorinich: with NAT
IvanGorinich: from provider
IvanGorinich: not dynamic to internet
IvanGorinich: Dynamic in providers NAT
twoelk: is your own server up independent_ ?
independent_: Not online, and port forwarding seems to be confused
Warr1024: Sounds like not having a public IP might be a more common problem in the russian-speaking world...
twoelk: tsts, just when I was musing on doing some server touring
IvanGorinich: i dont have proxy on VPN server with static ip
independent_: I dont feel liek install ygdrasl on my ocmpute to play on one single server, sorry.
Warr1024: There are at least 4 servers on ygg so far
Warr1024: I had been thinking about trying to come up with a better solution for this, but the biggest problem is probably liability.
twoelk: I totally forgot that joining a VE server with empty cache may take forever
independent_: how could vannessa possibly operate so many servers? how do they have enough time to maintain the servers?
sfan5: the server admin doesn't have to do everything personally you know
independent_: Tell me more
Krock: docker start
Krock: docker start
Krock: docker start
Krock: repeat until all servers are up
Krock: then get some loyal people who won't wreck the server and give them mod powers
independent_: ohhh... now i get you... so each server is it's own container... i didn't know you could do that!
VanessaE: well it's a bit more than that
VanessaE: and I don't use docker
Krock: what you need to do is to take care of the infrastructure, so that the server runs well
Krock: such as fixing mods that cause errors for no good reason
Pexin: also what mods? your servers are all empty   :]
Pexin: (moderators)
VanessaE: :P
VanessaE: yeah they're not as popular as I'd like..
Krock: 🔥
VanessaE: *shrug*
independent_: I have just realised... maybe it is a good idea to use docker images to run minetest servers. what are the downsides of such a setup?
independent_: йвй в ивй  вхф
independent_: Oh wait, russian keyboard enabled. sorry.
appguru: independent_: Overhead.
independent_: some examples?
appguru: That appears to be pretty negligible though.
Warr1024: The advantages appear to significantly outweigh the disadvantages.  It's much easier to keep up to date, and to isolate config so that it's all in one place, reproducible and portable, etc
independent_: Very intresting... just that i need to see a current setup,  with a dockerfile i can stea- take inspiration from.
Warr1024: https://hub.docker.com/r/linuxserver/minetest
Warr1024: No need to take inspiration, it's basically turnkey, until you need to customize something beyond just installing games/mods or server config.
independent_: wow
beanzilla: Yikes... That image would be big... they really should learn about docker layers... Docker will persist the libs apt removes which bloats the iamge size and takes up space... Here's my Dockerfile... https://pastebin.com/XhjHH2YH
beanzilla: But if it works who really cares about the size.
independent_: https://imgur.com/a/jvuEDoc <-- here is a coushon i made for minetest, in textiles around the beggining of 2020.
beanzilla: Very neat.
independent_: 2020-02-06
independent_: i had to do it under the supervision of a lower-class teacher, because duh, autism
independent_: oh wait i wasn't diagnosed until first quarter 2021 dammit
Warr1024: Optimizing an image for size often pessimizes it for incremental change speed.   I usually try to make as many layers as I reasonably can, sort them in ascending order of probability of needing to be rebuilt, and avoid stripping out dev dependencies since it wastes time adding whiteouts.
beanzilla: Ah, and I didn't notice that I have a proxy where I grab cached copies of the stuff needed from apt install.
beanzilla: That speeds up my build so I don't need to wait 10+ minutes from just downloading the libs and such.
beanzilla: Not to mention my dockerfile simply extracts the tar ball of the minetest source code... it needs that to build.. also needs a bit more setup work besides just drop-play.
* beanzilla: wanders off to find something else he can break on his machine. Hey this still works let's break it.
Warr1024: I use the lsio MT docker image for simple hosting at home.  For my "production" server I have a local custom image derived from it where I add more deps and then rebuild the server with pgsql enabled.
Warr1024: The basic version is adequate though for most servers, and I could probably get away with it on my production server if I were okay with taking the server down for backups.
beanzilla: Ooh, fancy stuff, Yeah I'm not brave enough to open to the public a server just yet.
beanzilla: Not to mention I'm more into making mods or fixing clear and obviously broken ones.
Warr1024: My main motivation for publicly listing a server is to get exposure and beta testers for Nodecore
independent_: i cant die in nodecore!
independent_: i can jump off cliffs!
independent_: i feel so free!
Warr1024: It's easy not to lose what you've already got, but it's hard to make progress.
independent56: Is creating an OS as hard as creating a programming language?
rubenwardy: depends
rubenwardy: on how much you want to do with either
independent56: I plan on taking a distro of linux, and adding default apps as well as OS changes, to make a more accessible OS, for teachers.
independent56: "One where forced computer users will be able to efficently and easily do stuff. Teachers are so painfully slow on computers... and for them, computers feel like they are tripping people up."
rubenwardy: oh right, that's more like customising a distro than making an OS
independent56: Yay! But i can still say "ohh i made an OS", right?
rubenwardy: in the same way someone someone who went to oxford brooks could say they went to oxford university
rubenwardy: so no
independent56: Well, i may be wrong, but it hasn't stopped people from saying things. Being wrong < The amazment of surrounding teachers when i say "i made an OS". But my honesty will probably make me say "i just added modules to a existing OS and edited some of it".
rubenwardy: it's dishonest
rubenwardy: if you actually want to make one, take a look at https://wiki.osdev.org/Main_Page
independent56: "Theres a wiki for everything" ~someone else
Lone_Wolf: *~wiki.wikis.org
appguru: LuaOS when?
rubenwardy: doesn't have manual memory management
rubenwardy: you could use it for user space stuff though
Warr1024: As a user, I want to use Lua for all my space stuff
Benrob0329: There is a systems language based on Lua, might be able to use that if you're clever
Benrob0329: But it'd probably be better to just have a Lua-based shell and utilities
sofar: hmmm, I used to have nodes with `alpha = 160,` but that is now obsolete... what do I replace this with?
sofar: specifically they were water nodes
Warr1024: texture modifiers as far as I've seen.  I considered a hack to do it automatically but some of my stuff was too complex for it to work well.
sofar: *whatever*
sofar: the textures seem to have proper alpha in them
independent56: Wow... people from equador, egypt, texas, ans the USA are all scaning me... i'm flattered
independent56: I must be on some sort of database of servers now
independent56: I'm just wondering, should i send reports of these guys to the government?
FBI: yes
FBI: thou shall
independent56: XD
independent56: gtg school.
appguru: independent56: some are probably crawlers of legit search engines and the like, others are probably scanners looking to break into yet another WordPress instance, and a few are surely lurkers like me
BuckarooBanzai: yeah, thats the "usual" background traffic when you expose something to the internet ;)
allesha: hello all
independent56: well... i dont think a web crawler would "rm -rf thinkphp"
lusy-grey: come to irc freenode chat <== new network for only chat.
lusy-grey: Come fast register your channel, first come, first serve basis.
rubenwardy: independent56: web crawlers don't need to be legit
rubenwardy: a web crawler is just a bot that follows links to discover pages. Legit web crawlers use that data for searching and indexing, but malicious web crawlers could look for vulnerabilities
independent56: Hmm... Well, how would it find my site? where have i put links to my website?
rubenwardy: it may be enumerating IP addresses
independent56: Oh... yeah, i was thinking of "legit" ones.
independent56: And "people from equador", i mean all thos vulnrability scans. It breaks article 1 of the computer misue act - something about seeking unatuthorised access to a computer.
specing: good luck finding the perpetrator
independent56: i wont. the IP is all the government needs to start their investigation
Warr1024: Don't expect "article 1 of the computer misuse act" to apply to them either.  You have no idea where you'll actually find the people responsible, but there's a good chance that laws we take for granted don't apply there.
Jordach: this
Jordach: best you'll get is a criminal reference number from the rozzers
specing: Nah, the laws of the land where the crime was perpetrated apply
independent56: hmm. yeah, i know from the IP address that they aren't from the UK
Warr1024: No you don't
Jordach: second, the misuse act only applies to british citizens in british territories
Warr1024: you only know the IP address of the computer that scanned you
independent56: oh yeah
independent56: could be a vpn/vps 0_0
Warr1024: The person responsible for the scan (if they'r even aware of it) could be anywhere on earth
Warr1024: Or technically not on earth, though we assume there aren't any hackers on the ISS right now.
sfan5: (or not on earth)
sfan5: there's definitely hackers on the ISS
sfan5: but not in the popular sense of the word
Warr1024: Heh, well, I assume they probably have better things to do with their time than run a botnet
Warr1024: though so much of that is fire-and-forget at this point with automatic vulnerability scans, they very well could have just left their botnet to largely run itself while on a space mission...
Warr1024: If you got scanned by an IP address in Ecuador there's like a 90% chance that it's someone's home router or a printer/fax machine in some office, that has its management interfaces exposed to the internet and they never changed the default password.
independent56: oh yeah... maybe it's to much bother then it's worth to reprot to the government.
Jordach: if you're that paranoid - don't host at all
independent56: haha
Jordach: i live with an actual red team pentester
Jordach: he could probably dumpster your machines in about an hour
Jordach: wu tang LAN ain't nothing to mess with
independent56: haha... oh god
independent56: correction:  <Jordach> if you're that paranoid - make sure you backup very often.
Pexin: what I want to know is, could they be scanning for vulnerabilities    FROM THE FUTURE
Pexin: temporal internet when
Warr1024: What are you talking about?  This IS the future, has been for years.
* Pexin: changes PC's internal clock
VanessaE: To the person who just tried to DDoS my server, FUCK YOU.  That is all.
VanessaE: (I mention it here since it's more likely to be a disgruntled player than nayone else :P )
VanessaE: any*
specing: Maybe it was independent56
VanessaE: doubt it.
independent56: i have my own worries.
specing: VanessaE: stop scanning him and he'll stop DDoSing you. :P
independent56: i had a 503 error, and ended up worrying about a remote wipe of my system, at school.
VanessaE: heh
independent56: Explain more about the incident... how did you react?
independent56: here follows a quote from my document abotu the 503  - "Hello… and I am slightly concerned about my work. If someone managed to exploit a vulnerability, do rm -r /home, then they would have destroyed  all of my backups. I hope they didn’t touch anything. I hope nobody has accessed my server."
independent56: which is why im scp-ing my backups to my main.
Warr1024: 99% of the HTTP 503 errors I see are when an application is being restarted (often for maintenance or updates).  Kubernetes for example returns 503's if the pods backing an ingress are being recycled.  Other systems may return a 502 or a 504 for similar situations.
independent56: i use XAMPP, and it was working perfectly.
independent56: and the error was for hours.
independent56: But i am restarting XAMPP jut to be sure
Ingar: stop worrying about getting scanned, get worried of you don't get scanned
Warr1024: As someone who sometimes has to do maintenance on web apps, I can confirm that the maintenance sometimes lasts for hours too and they're certainly as frustrated about that as you are :-D
VanessaE: wait, you maintain web apps from time to time... and you're still sane? :P
independent56: I have to maintain my server. the only thing which stops me from going insane is a froced break called "school".
Pexin: you.. don't really have to maintain your server..
independent56: i can't not. if i don't then broken services will be broken forever
Benrob0329: I'll never understand the logic of "I screwed up and got banned, therefore I'm going to waste money making sure I REALLY can't there play again."
independent56: I mean my webserver, not the mtserver
VanessaE: Benrob0329 well yo be fair I'm only guessing, since the only people I ever seem to piss off are MT players now and then.  Could just as easily be random, like "war-dialing" for a target IP.
VanessaE: to*
Benrob0329: "I'm going to temporarily piss someone off in a way that inherently can't benefit me at all"
Benrob0329: Nope, still doesn't make sense
VanessaE: whatever the reason, it only lasted for 15 mins
Pexin: humens - making sense since never
Benrob0329: So not only did they try to piss you off, they also couldn't be arsed to put in the money to make it actually inconvenient for any length of time.
Benrob0329: I don't know if that makes them more or less terrible
VanessaE: haha
independent56: Pexin,  exactly. this is why i have ascended the huan race and become cybor
independent56: *cyborg
Benrob0329: I suppose I feel the same way about trolls, don't do it, but if you do at least make it worth my time.
Warr1024: VE: Yes I do maintain web apps, and when did I ever claim to be sane?
VanessaE: haha
Benrob0329: Maybe its a terrible outlook to have, but I'd rather someone (for e.g.) fill my logs with Lenny faces rather than plain old access violations, because at least I'd get a good laugh out of it.
VanessaE: lol
Warr1024: I'm actually a little surprised to hear that VE even bats an eye about a DoS attack.  I figured that running a bunch of large servers and having had to do moderation stuff, you'd come under retaliatory or even random attacks pretty often.
Benrob0329: I suppose the whole point of DDoSing is to waste my time though, but that's hard to do when I'd actually be wasting my time messing with the server so they've just shut down my procrastination.
VanessaE: Ben, well if THAT ever happens you can blame Jordach since he favors that face :)
Benrob0329: Heh
VanessaE: Warr: oh, I do get attacked every once in a while, but it's rare enough that it usually surprises me a little
independent56: If someone was ever to DDoS me, i would live through it. nobody relies on my server. it can go on for weeks, and iwont pay a ransom.
VanessaE: that's why I pay for a good host with good DDoS-mitigation
VanessaE: if they hadn't emailed me, I wouldn't have known anything unusual was happening :)
Warr1024: One of the drawbacks of being old enough is that when people talk about DDoS attacks it makes it sound like they're stuttering about old pre-graphical operating systems.
Ingar: @Warr1024 DOS had graphics!
VanessaE: heh
Warr1024: DOS did not, but it could run software that did.  There's a fine distinction...
Benrob0329: I'm assuming they try to DDoS the web server specifically? Since (to my knowledge) the turnkey solutions probably wouldn't target MT
Ingar: The later dos versions actually had a graphical filemanager (forgot the name) DOS 6 I think
Ingar: or maybe in 5 already
Warr1024: Ah could be...
Jordach: You fockin wot VE
Warr1024: I suspect that turnkey DDoS tools could target MT if it's just a matter of picking a UDP port though.
VanessaE: Ben:  dunno, my host's email didn't specify.  just that my server's IP was targeted.
Benrob0329: I suppose I should go educate myself on the matter, but I haven't the time right now
VanessaE: Jordach: a joke :P
Jordach: I haven’t used a lenny in years
Jordach: 🤡
VanessaE: like I pay attention to that anyway :)
Jordach: To be fair people are too uptight these days for a Lenny
independent56: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
VanessaE: looks like they're trying to attack my host now :P
VanessaE: (host's own status pages are slow to respond)
Warr1024: Arguably the best thing to do is just pretend you don't notice it, since they might just be trying to get a reaction out of you.
VanessaE: heh
VanessaE: all the reaction they'll get out of me is a laugh :)
VanessaE: (the aforementioned "fuck you" was more like "you failed, so fuck you" :) )
Warr1024: Well, you DID notice.
independent56: well, to all those who are scanning the web and trying to exploit thinkphp? fuck you. go buy your own hardware!
VanessaE: Warr:  only because my host emailed me :)
Warr1024: Haha, there's a bit of a difference there, since the exploit hunters are looking for hosts to add to a botnet, while VE's attacker is probably just seeking attention.
VanessaE: the irony of that is how do you get attention if the world doesn't know it was you who did whatever it is :)
independent56: i want to make my own botnet, with my own computers.
VanessaE: independent56: with blackjack and hookers?
VanessaE: :P
independent56: Probably will have two - my main and my webserver, as they are the most accessible
Warr1024: Attention-seeking behavior like attacking somebody's server is not strongly associated with that level of rational thought to begin with.
VanessaE: good point
VanessaE: whoever the attention-seeker is, if he's reading this: consider yourself disregarded and summarily ignored :)
independent56: most recent scan was 16:13 BST
independent56: (actually server time, which is a minute or so out of sync with real time.)
Warr1024: Haha, I don't even remember how many years it's been since I paid attention to logs of people trying to brute-force my SSH port.  Probably hundreds of thousands of attempts by now.
Warr1024: For a while I tried a process of tempbanning them for a while if they had a certain number of failures, but what I ended up doing instead if just rejecting 95% of all incoming SSH connections across the board.
Warr1024: Scanners often see that and think my port is closed, or maybe get like 1 or 2 attempts in first.  If I want to access it though I just have to keep retrying until I roll a natural 20.
Benrob0329: Its funny and terrifying to see SSH brute-force bots trying passwords like "minecraftserver"
Warr1024: Systems that don't rely on trying to identify and track reputation of clients can't then be turned around to act as DoS vulnerabilities, e.g. by spoofing a source IP to get legit users tempbanned.
independent56: haha
VanessaE: Warr: fail2ban doesn't work for you?
Benrob0329: I'd love to just greylist all incoming requests from new IPs
Warr1024: It might but I don't want to bother setting it up.
VanessaE: heh ok
Warr1024: Also if my server comes under attack by someone who's at the same coffee shop that I am, they could buy themselves some time by just lightly brute-force-attacking it to block my own access to it so I can't respond.
MNH48: does that kind of bruteforce work on SSH that don't use password? like mine uses ssh-ed25519 key to get on SSH
Warr1024: As long as I use a system that treats all 3rd parties as equally untrusted then there's nothing for them to exploit to change the trust level of any other party, either higher OR lower.
Warr1024: If you can memorize an entire ed25519 key then that's impressive, but so far passwords are the only credentials I've found that don't require some kind of device to store them on.
Warr1024: My brain is harder to compromise than most devices, and I rarely misplace it.
VanessaE: mine gets left in bed almost every morning.
Warr1024: Try wearing earplugs to bed to keep it from sneaking out.
VanessaE: though to be fair, that isn't "misplaced", that's just DISplaced :)
VanessaE: lol
Warr1024: I've got multiple 128-bit passwords memorized so I should be able to actually memorize an ed25519 key, with proper encoding, I guess...
Benrob0329: At the end of the day if you keep your keys out of your computer nobody can steal them without physical access, which is usually fairly easy to deter with e.g. a dog.
Benrob0329: Its scary how comfortable we're gotten storing stuff in random places on the internet
Warr1024: Yeah, nobody is gonna steal a laptop with a power adapter that a dog's been chewing on.
Benrob0329: Exactly!
Benrob0329: Hmm, I wonder I could mar up a phone case to make it look less appealing to thieves
Warr1024: In theory airgaps are perfect security while cryptography is only mostly secure.  In practice, people generally don't break crypto, but they find all kinds of loopholes in physical access control.  You're better off just using decent encryption on a cloud backup than storing your important crap in a shoebox full of USB drives.
Warr1024: I feel like there must be a name for that as an art form: making things look fake-antique or beat up as a theft deterrent.  I heard about a guy who has had his car broken into multiple times to steal his camera equipment, but then was able to leave thousands of dollars worth of high-end professional photography equipment sitting on a park bench undisturbed thanks to strategic use of duct tape.
Warr1024: I "decorated" my work macbook so that can take it into libraries and coffee shops without any worry.  I put down a layer of blue painter's tape first to protect the finish, then add duct tape over top of that, and the tape tends to get scuffed on its own just from packing, unpacking, and handling the thing.
Benrob0329: What's safer, leaving stuff in the tank people are definitely going to go check out while no one is around, or the 1999 Oldsmobile that's had it's hood and bumper attached with duct tape and a prayer?
Warr1024: Haha, talking about a '99 oldsmobile like it's old ... I still kinda miss my '97 lumina.
Hawk777: “In theory airgaps are perfect security” except for the part where, to use your password/key/etc., you eventually have to type it into a computer connected to the Internet. You can’t make SSH secure when the computer on which the client is running is compromised. Store the key on a USB stick? OK, after breaking into your computer, the attacker will just leave a trojan behind that waits until you plug in the USB stick and then
Hawk777: als the key. Store the key on a separate computer and do SSH agent authentication instead, so the key never appears on the Internet-connected computer? The attacker will just leave a trojan behind that waits until you actually have an SSH session open, and then sends fake keyboard input into it to install a remote access trojan on the SSH server and then clear the screen really quickly. Use a password instead so nobody can steal th
Hawk777: y? Keylogger defeats you. If the SSH client machine is broken, you’ve pretty much lost hope.
Warr1024: Yeah, you're getting into a lot of the ways that physical security is impossible, like evil maid and cold boot attacks and such.
Warr1024: It's why when people talk about locking servers up in cages and posting armed guards, I remind them that that's still no substitute for e.g. full disk encryption.
Warr1024: Even FDE only protects you from threats in one direction, i.e. people walking off with the disk.  If they tamper with it but leave in in place ... that's a lot harder to protect against.
Hawk777: I actually meant the exact opposite—an airgap is useless if the SSH client computer is broken into *from the internet*, even if your physical security is useless.
Hawk777: Though it’s true that poor physical security can also cause the same problems.
Hawk777: Sorry, in my first message there, I meant even if your physical security is *perfect*, not useless.
Warr1024: When I'm talking about airgaps I'm talking about being not connected to the internet.  At least, not directly.  Everything that's connected to a human is connected to a part of the internet, after all.
Hawk777: Ah, if you consider information passing through a human to not be airgapped, then sure. Airgaps are secure, but also mostly useless.
Warr1024: The ambiguity in how you define a proper airgap is itself a big part of the problem with them.
Benrob0329: I still want to have homelab servers with no SSH access that I just manage from a local terminal
Benrob0329: Because while sure, someone could break in and do stuff, at that point my biggest concern is probably not the server
Warr1024: Heh, I'm sort of the opposite.  I would rather have everything be "cloud," I just want it to be cloud that I have control over instead of relying on some third party.  This is why I do stuff like use dynamic DNS and run SSH/web servers on my home systems, and why I was annoyed that they just killed HPKP, even if the security model for it was mostly crappy to begin wtih...
independent56: My biggest concern when someone breaks in is my computer, and the fact it has all my files. Bakup keeps on breaking down.
Warr1024: My backup coverage is spotty, but the fact that I have my data in like 5 different tiers that all call for different levels of backup doesn't help. :-/
Hawk777: While this would be location-dependent, personally I am less concerned with someone stealing my computer and more concerned with parts of it breaking. That’s why I always make time for backups.
Benrob0329: I have backups mostly to protect against my own screw ups, as well as ransomware
Pexin: Warr1024: re graphics running on dos: remembering when "windows" was not (or only ambiguously) an "operating system"
independent56: I keep backups because i am a human, and i have had human error kill me multiple times.
Benrob0329: protection against the latter being a happy accident of protection against the former
Warr1024: I have been successfully maliciously attacked by an outsider zero times so far since my switch to unix-likes, and only once on Windows.   I have however self-owned multiple times, including 2 separate "rm -rf /$TEMPDIR" when it should have been "TMPDIR" incidents.
rubenwardy: if you're trying to protect against ransomware, make sure the backups aren't on the same network
Warr1024: A malicious attack is also just a form of human error, it's just an error in the moral processing of another human.
Warr1024: (Hanlon's Razor Extreme Edition)
independent56: Haha, i backup onto an old SSD. it stays offline literally 99% of the time
Benrob0329: My PC backups are just my important files to a mostly powered-down external HDD
Warr1024: I do something like that too, but I've never been quite as comfortable as I was back when I used to use non-rewritable optical media.  It's hard to erase them, either accidentally or maliciously, given only software access.
Benrob0329: Anything I intend to share goes on a Git host anyways, so thats already taken care of
Warr1024: The problem with the "usually offline" approach is that if someone does want to mess with you, there's no reason why they would need to fire off the payload as soon as they get a toehold; they can just sit around for months and make sure they get a chance to infect your backups too.
Pexin: I was always uncomfortable with how physically fragile optical media
Warr1024: git is a nice backup strategy.  Making your projects public and open source helps out a lot too, since anyone else who becomes interested can also help back you up.
Warr1024: Optical media is fragile but not a ton more fragile than hard disks or SSDs really.  All of them have care requirements and none are all that exotic.
Benrob0329: I can't get any 3TB discs though (is it disk or disc for optical media?)
Warr1024: If you really want data to survive a disaster the single most useful strategy is probably diversity.  Diversity of medium, of location, of storage method and timing, etc.
Benrob0329: punch cards
independent56: i wish git wouldnt bloat my main disk so much if i used it for backup in my home directory
Benrob0329: shallow cloning is a thing
appguru: I would absolutely not backup to SSDss
Warr1024: git isn't really a good enough tool for general purpose backup to use it indiscriminantly.
appguru: SSDs*
Warr1024: Why
appguru: Well, backups often involve lots of rewrites. A HDD doesn't care, SSDs have limited TBW.
Warr1024: I've been using HDDs and I've been thinking SSDs might actually be better, since they handle mechanical and thermal shock much better than HDDs.
Warr1024: Also the rewrite thing is exactly backwards
independent56: I wish i had more bakcup types, but i only have "hdd" and "ssd". But i have property in gwynedd, so i can use that to be offsite backup. i also have a location in egland, at myhome.
Pexin: isn't flash storage essentially nano-punchcards?
Warr1024: that's an excellent reason to use an SSD, because if your SSD can survive being used in a live system, then t definitely has the rewrite capacity to handle periodic backups.
Benrob0329: ^
appguru: if your system supports delta backups, SSDs are probably fine - but if you backup by just copying everything periodically, I wouldn't want that to wear down a SSD
Warr1024: SSD rewrite limits are mostly FUD.  From what I've seen the various failure modes for mechanical disks will generally kill you long before SSD rewrites start to threaten.
Warr1024: Backups are generally an append-only process though.
Warr1024: So each bit of the disk is gonna get written basically once, aside from metadata.
Warr1024: I use borg for deduping and backup every month to several months.  When that disk gets full I buy a new one and "archive" the old one in a safe.
appguru: independent56: What software does the backups for you
Warr1024: Deduplication is pretty much a superset of the value you get from incrementals.
appguru: I use what ships with Ubuntu, deja-dup
Benrob0329: I've been running my root partition off of an NVME drive more-or-less since I built my PC, and I'm pretty sure my hard drive is gonna fail before the SSD considering that it's the only thing to have giving me any inklings of wear
Benrob0329: *given
Warr1024: Also you definitely don't want backups that keep only the latest version of everything, or else there are risks to backing up too often, and you will create the wrong incentives.
appguru: Which is another reason to use HDDs: They have more space
appguru: Or at least, cheaper space
Warr1024: I use HDDs myself for backup.
Benrob0329: The SSD <-> HDD space gap is lessening with time for common use cases
Warr1024: SSDs may be tougher, but I coddle my backup drives anyway, and I don't need the speed because USB is a bottleneck anyway.
Warr1024: I do expect SSDs to overtake HDDs within a few years, and I'll probably switch once the price is right.
Warr1024: I certainly won't avoid SSDs, anyway.
Warr1024: The only failure mode I've observed from SSDs so far that weren't factory-defective from the outset is obsolesecence.
celeron55_: SSDs could be a bad idea for backups that need to last for tens of years untouche
celeron55_: +d
appguru: I wonder whether it would be reasonable for the MTDiscord relay to change it's nickname
celeron55_: HDDs retain their content better when sitting on a shelf for decades
Warr1024: Hmm, yeah, you need to leave SSDs powered on for a significant amount of time at least every year or so.
Benrob0329: Heh, if I can keep coasting on my current storage solution long enough SSDs might become the cheaper option
Warr1024: SSDs gradually discharge and need to internally self-refresh.
Warr1024: They're still new enough in the field of backups that it's easy to forget their quirks.
appguru: I assume you can't get your TBW back by waiting for your SSD to lose all data?
celeron55_: i recall some place said it could be a bad idea to rely on an unpowered SSD to retain its data for even just 5 years
Warr1024: It wasn't too long ago though that the same shit we're arguing about SSD vs HDD people were arguing about HDD vs tape.
Benrob0329: I wonder if there are any cheap ROM usb drives for backup
Benrob0329: tape is still used for cold storage, apparently
Warr1024: If your SSD's cells self-discharge enough then I'd bet you end up with a brick.  They'd probably lose the firmware too.
Warr1024: c55 actually the worst I heard was only 2 years :-)
celeron55_: surely SSDs have a separate flash for firmware?
Warr1024: Haha, "surely"
celeron55_: i guess it would be cheaper to not have one
Warr1024: I mean "obviously" no manufacturer would cheap out that bad. 😏
Benrob0329: Oh no, they'd never do that
celeron55_: i'm currently doing backups before a trip that i'll take my laptop with me, and i'm simply copying stuff onto a usb hard disk
celeron55_: this method has never failed me
independent56: MicroSD is a horrible backup solution. you spend hours making a backup then "fuck where is it?"
celeron55_: well just put it on your keychain, encrypted of course
celeron55_: you can probably 3d print a tiny holder for it
independent56: celeron55_ i  once had all my pre-2020 documents dissapear after i had it on one drive that i reformatted by accident. but they were all cringe.
independent56: "probably" assues that i have a 3d printer.
celeron55_: independent56: "had it on one drive" doesn't sound like backups
celeron55_: a backup is something that's on a second drive
Benrob0329: (doubling back because I had a though) But hey, on the bright side with crime slowly moving towards being tech-based maybe we can rely more on physical security and just limit network access because it'll become the less popular course of action
Benrob0329: Due note however that most physical security is just as bad as most cyber security
celeron55_: security by obscurity works fairly well for personal things
celeron55_: just don't use the same obscurity others do
independent56: What's funny is i have a huge, heavy HDD of 300 gb, and then the tiny ones have 500 gb. Of course i will use the smaller ones!
Benrob0329: c55: Well, at least here in the US most popular lock manufacturers are terrible (ignoring the potential for "loud" entree methods)
Benrob0329: Because while sure, locks are meant to stop easy access, if your lock can be raked open by someone with little experience then it's not much of a deterrent
celeron55_: yeah i've heard US locks are jokes
Ingar: but, who can access your precious data if you're uncounscious
Benrob0329: It's all in your head, Ingar, it's all in your head
Ingar: well, the widow of my dead friend never knew how much the bitcoins on his encrypted drive were worth
Ingar: (real story)
appguru: Robbing an encrypted drive is probably pretty dumb
Benrob0329: unless the drive itself is expensive /s
celeron55_: robbing an encrypted drive is more polite than robbing an unencrypted drive
Ingar: I do use encrypted volumes for data transports at work though
celeron55_: at least you're not stealing the data 8)
Benrob0329: My laptop used to be encrypted, if I ever take it anywhere I'll need to set that back up
Ingar: celeron55_: I might be into funy business :p
Benrob0329: There hasn't been a need though, because..y'know
rubenwardy: the problem with cyber security over physically security is that you don't need to be physical present, or even in the same country
appguru: What if Ingar is a secret agent /s
rubenwardy: you being the attacker
rubenwardy: so you can go somewhere with no extradiction and cause lots of issues
Ingar: I'm in your PC, logging your IRC and securely transporting it
Warr1024: A physical lock is not a device to protect your stuff from thieves, it's a device to protect your neighbors from becoming thieves.  How honest people are depends a lot on their circumstances, so the courteous thing to do is not to place your neighbors in more challenging circumstances.
rubenwardy: plus insurance
appguru: Pro tip: Just be poor and don't have any valuables in your house.
Benrob0329: Decoy safes are an option too
Ingar: it's also a legal thing
independent56: pro tip: copy all yoru valubles to a backup hose, in case of bugarlies
Ingar: breaking a lock to get to something proves intention
appguru: indeed
appguru: i56: that is pretty engrish
Benrob0329: It also isn't "silent entree" and is less desirable most of the time afaik
independent56: sorry, i pertend i am brish, but i am acctuall chienes
Benrob0329: Not everyone cares of course
appguru: all right, tell me more about those "bugarlies"
appguru: bug-arlies, bugar-lies, bulgaries?
independent56: burglas enter home > take valublees > go to police
Hawk777: It’s when someone tells you there’s a burger available but there really isn’t.
Benrob0329: At the end of the day, the best way to not get burgled is to look less valuable than the guy next to you.
rubenwardy: or more secure
Benrob0329: also that
Ingar: it's like when running from a bear, I only need to be faster than you
appguru: If I'm a rich burglar with 10k worth of stolen items, and you have 5k I can steal, why should I not do it?
Benrob0329: heh, I've just thought about putting expensive gaming rigs in crappy 1999-esque cases so that they look like old trash to your average person
appguru: Just fill it up with sandbags
Benrob0329: lead cases
Benrob0329: or buy cheap hardware and encase it in cement, if it breaks just replace it :P
independent56: I just get insurance - my hardware is nothing compared to the importance of my files.
independent56: *would if i was an adult
appguru: Good luck proving the importance of your files to an insurance.
appguru: Especially after they are gone.
independent56: I mean, that's the use of offsite backup
appguru: Yes. Did I understand you wrong and you meant getting insurance for the hardware?
independent56: yes
appguru: That's not worth the hassle IMO. Even if you had hardware in the 1k range, it wouldn't be worth the hassle of dealing with the insurance, or paying the insurance fees.
independent56: but im not an adult™ so i guess it might not exist, and could be a too much cost.
appguru: I'm not an adult either, but there are few cases in which I see insurance as necessary
appguru: Mainly to protect against worst-case-scenarios, which could quickly financially ruin you. Like scratching a Maserati (hence car insurance).
Benrob0329: suddenly feels old
independent56: i hope there is a way to insure every part of your life with one insurance, like car, ahrdware, home, and everything
appguru: That would be terribly expensive
independent56: this is where "i am not an adult™" comes into play,
Warr1024: appguru:  (from #-dev) a "kid-friendly" badge sounds like a nice idea, but problematic in practice
appguru: kilbith, here we go: what do you suggest to fix the problem?
Warr1024: There are too many cultural norms and even personal choices wrapped up in what content would be considered appropriate for a kid...
appguru: Warr1024: why problematic?
appguru: we would have to define "kid-friendly" first
sfan5: having some sort of official branding for child-friendly servers is going to be cause a big mess once some server admin fails to enforce that at some point in time
Warr1024: There are standards like PEGI or something we could try to use, assuming we could come up with an arbitration method to actually resolve disagreements about what actually qualifies.
Warr1024: I'm not even talking about chat swear filters, even just "is this horror mod 'too scary' for this audience" is gonna be hard enough.
appguru: the only scary mods (actually game) I know are still in WIP stage (IKEA)
Warr1024: What we currently have is the ability for server admins to advertise on their own terms what they think the kid-friendliness level of a server is, but we rely on mostly reputational enforcement.
rubenwardy: Also any curation puts more liability on us
Warr1024: Ironically there are a lot of servers out there that are targeted to a younger audience but has stuff in there that I could argue is unhealthy or inappropriate for them on it, while I run a server that just barely stops short of having a "no kids" policy but parents love to bring their kids onto it because of the educational potential of the game mechanics XD
Benrob0329: Allowing severs to have content tags would be nice (as well as filtering for them)
Benrob0329: Both "has" and "does not have" tags would be ideal
Warr1024: Warning children away from certain servers seems fine to me, with it being left ambiguous about any servers not so marked.
Warr1024: Actually asserting that any server IS child-friendly in any way is more than I'd be comfortable committing to though.
Warr1024: There is a certain baseline level of risk inherent in any online play anyway, and concerned parties would do well to keep it in mind.
independent56: child-friendly is not child-welcoming.
independent56: my server is child-ok.
Warr1024: I have a "no excess swearing in chat" rule.  That means you have to be okay with SOME swearing.  In practice if we know someone brought their kid with them to play, we try to tone it down, but we can't make promises.
Warr1024: The gameplay itself is another issue.  There's nothing "bad" for children in it, but it's pretty harsh if you don't have at least a high school level education.
Benrob0329: Technically, because IKEA is more reliant on survival-horror (the scary part is mostly just trying not to die in slightly disturbing circumstances) it'll probably be fine for older kids, even in it's eventual released state (unless I add some deep physiological horror elements to areas like has been discussed)
Warr1024: Heh, I feel like maybe there's a certain age past which it's unhealthy NOT to have experienced some psychological horror though.
independent56: what do you mean "harsh"? all that lua?
Benrob0329: well, maybe shallow psychological horror is the better term
independent56: such as...?
appguru: gore
Warr1024: By "harsh" I mean the game is difficult and unyielding.
Benrob0329: App: That's the opposite of psychological horror, generally speaking
appguru: That'd be called "visual horror" then?
independent56: Yeah, stuff which makes you think "oh my god i am a monster why am i like this"
appguru: That's not all that shallow anymore I'd say
Warr1024: Haha, that's the best kind
Benrob0329: There are other kinds, but yes that is one example
Warr1024: NodeCore has psychological horror elements but it's very deeply buried, until you realize that every bad thing that's happened to you in gameplay was because of a decision you made :-)
Warr1024: Psychological horror: some assembly required.
Warr1024: That would actually be a good way to describe IKEA too, though in a very different sense.
Warr1024: I believe that the uncanny-valley faceless staffers in IKEA actually fall under a specific "body horror" subgenre
Warr1024: though tbh the fact that everything in MT is lo-fi so faceless dudes look totally not out of place kind of ruins that.
Benrob0329: My idea has been for the path to the end game to be somewhat disturbing with it's soundscape and feel, with less than comforting results by the end. Perhaps psychological horror isn't the right term either though, since it's not trying to get in your head as much as it'd be trying to make you hate the landscape and feel the dread of your circumstances.
Benrob0329: Then again, that is kind of trying to "get in your head"
Benrob0329: Warr: Just wait until I have fun making new animation sets for them :P
Warr1024: The funny thing about NC is that I never put any psychological horror or existential dread stuff in the game itself, I just lowered the background noise level enough that you can start to hear that stuff inside your own head...
Benrob0329: Truly, the most terrifying things already live inside your head
twoelk: "hate the landscape" ?? but I like visiting IKEA
independent56: the background noise? i just listen to music on the background, because i like music. it makes the voices in my head go away
twoelk: haven't tried the IKEA game as of lately - are those little example furnished rooms also included?
Benrob0329: Sidenote, I'd love it if we could define a sound's source as a type of node, but only for the positional side of things
Benrob0329: twoelk: There are basic Warehouse and Showroom departments as of right now
Warr1024: What do you mean by "sound source as a type of node?"
Benrob0329: positional audio source
Warr1024: you can play sounds positionally, you just need to be responsible for doing it yourself.
Warr1024: you can't make it emit from ALL nearby nodes of a given type though unless you send multiple play commands.
Benrob0329: Right
Warr1024: You can't really do this for music though, or any sound that's very long
Benrob0329: I'd like to have that without having to mess with say, moving an entity around (though that's probably what I'll do though when I revamp the music code)
twoelk: I once experimented with a fountain as sorce of noice - was nice sometimes and a PITA to keep working correctly at times, kept getting unloaded or freezing in mid note
Warr1024: as far as I know a sound is only delivered to players in range at the time it's started, and if a player walks into range later while it should still be playing, I don't think they hear it...
Warr1024: If you could have the server track state of positional sound "entities" server-side and replicate them to clients that wander into range of them, and add the ability to start playing a sound with a time offset within the sound file, you could come pretty close to having background music coming from speakers.
Benrob0329: I suppose I don't need to use entities, I can just keep track of the starting timestamp for the song and start up a new sound with the correct offset, and remove the old one when the player leaves
Benrob0329: *leaves the area
Warr1024: sound_play appears not to have an offset option
Warr1024: according to lua_api
Warr1024: feels like it otter
twoelk: what happens if I hop around on sound-area borders?
Warr1024: granted, there are a number of things that could be improved about sound_play, like the ability to schedule a sound to start at an exact future timestamp relative to some common point of reference, like when the player actually emerged client-side, so that musical things can be timed properly.
Warr1024: I haven't tested the "sounds don't player for players entering the sound area" thing since like 0.4.16 specifically but I have no reason to believe it's been addressed since then...
sfan5: Minetest is missing a common timeline between client and server in general
Warr1024: I did have some sound samples I wanted to play that were like 30 second loops at the time, but I had to cut them down into smaller segments or else a player had time to approach the thing without hearing the sound before it suddenly started on the next cycle.
twoelk: don't we have a church bells mod with a scheduled time of chiming?
Benrob0329: You're right, there is no sound offset parameter
Benrob0329: I could've sworn there was
Warr1024: Having a full common timeline would be nice, but at least just for sound it'd be good to be able to do like "midi music" sorts of things without network jitter killing the timing.
Warr1024: There have been a number of no-go mod ideas around dynamic or generated music, or musical sequencing boxes, etc. that end up only working in SP if at all...
Warr1024: Some people are very sensitive to bad timing in music, though if your network connection is anything less than ideal, you don't have to be all that sensitive even.
sfan5: SSCSM will give modders the ability to put bandaid on it
sfan5: still not good ofc
Warr1024: Nobody seems to like bandaids much but they sure do beat bleeding.
Benrob0329: I suppose barring a starting offset, moving a couple entities between sound sources would probably work
Warr1024: You don't need timing offsets if you chop your music up into segments and play them in sequence ... but then you'd need the ability to actually carefully time the start point of sounds and not be subject to network jitter.
Benrob0329: Alternatively, being able to A) specify multiple sources as-if it were multiple sounds and B) change that at runtime would work
Benrob0329: But that would require more control over sounds via handles
twoelk: some bandaids are made to look appealing to kids; good enough to trigger the "me too" effect
Warr1024: Supposedly in theory you could increase the maximum audible range.  The problem would be that what you'd have to increase it TO is the amount of distance a player could conceivably travel during one play-through of your song, which could cover a LOT of speaker nodes.
Warr1024: This is about where I would start to question certain assumptions, like the idea that an otherworldly IKEA inhabited by faceless creatures would play on their speakers sounds that we as humans would recognize as music.
Warr1024: If you make the speakers play something that's naturally cacophonous then the fact that you can't exactly control it would make it easier to fail to notice the seams.
twoelk: I once tried to set up a market with changing sounds as I wander about between different sellers shouting their offers. Never got any where near good enough to even show anybody
Benrob0329: I suppose I could keep a database of speaker node positions and play the sounds at all of the ones in range, but that's gonna get pricey to filter with time
Warr1024: Take the free/open music you were going to use, time-stretch it to about 8x length, pick random segments from it, fade in and out each one to make a pool of eerie otherworldly sounds, and then just play random ones at random timings from each speaker.
Benrob0329: Doing that would probably ruin the "This almost seems normal at first" feel I want opening hours to have, though
Warr1024: Also as players who have been inhabiting the IKEA from the early days we all agree that it "totally sounds normal to me" and "no idea what your'e talking about" when new players ask about the music.
Benrob0329: heh
Warr1024: Just don't play the music during the day, and only fade it in subtly as closing hour approaches... :-)
Warr1024: tbh I don't really notice the music, or lack of music, in a store anyway.
twoelk: actually if it doesnt change with time - it might give clues of its age by analyzing its style
twoelk: I sometimes search for a speaker to get a clearer version of a tune that manages to get my attention - usually I get staff attention though as I wander into restricted areas
Warr1024: It does bring up a lot of questions about the infinite IKEA that people struggling for survival or containment probably never really thought about.  We know it's infinite and isotropic in 2 spatial dimensions but not the 3rd, but then that makes you wonder about the time dimension.  Does it evolve over time or is everything there timeless and from no era in particular?  Or is time perhaps a local phenomenon and you'll travel through eras
MTDiscord: gradually as you move spatially?
twoelk: judging by the original story it does seem to progress in time
twoelk: it probably is not similar to L-space of diskworld
twoelk: would be cool if it was similar in function to the world-of-ponds limbo in "The magicians nephew" with many worlds providing visitor sources
Benrob0329: I'd like to get basic gameplay  implemented and a beta released :P
twoelk: for gameplay to work wouldn't a restaurant area be needed for basic food supply?
twoelk: and a reason to leave safebase
twoelk: of course the restaurant area would need to be protected so one could not build there but the vending machines or maybe food stands may be used
twoelk: gtg
twoelk: bye
Warr1024: You only need one gameplay loop for a beta.  Just like "you build, staff destroy" is enough.  You don't need hunger or anything immediately.
benrob0329: !tell twoelk Already planned, though I don't remember if I had any ideas for how to keep players from building there
MinetestBot: benrob0329: I'll pass that on when twoelk is around
Warr1024: Wait, why shouldn't you be allowed to build in the dining areas?
Benrob0329: Good point
Benrob0329: I suppose it's just an optimal strategy that would take away some of the challenge, but then again the Staff probably need to go there to replenish the food
Warr1024: Either that or fouling up the cafeteria by building there will cause the food to go bad.
Warr1024: Or maybe players can be allowed to build there and have unlimited food, but they'll sacrifice some other resource they would have had if they had built elsewhere.  Maybe you can exploit one resource for free from anywhere, but there's no single resource that's sufficient to survive indefinitely.
independent_: is using the nodecore wiki cheating?
Warr1024: It's not "against the rules" or anything, but be warned that once you already know a thing, it's very difficult to get back the thrill of discovering it yourself.
independent_: Is it normal behaviour for the fire to extinguish itself after? i might be hitting it accidently during the pummeling... and it's annoying.
independent_: oh wait it is
Warr1024: You cannot put fire out by hand in nodecore
independent_: hmm...
independent_: yay fire working :->
independent_: now i have a bonfire
independent_: Nodecore trees ar eboring. it slowly grows, not like saplings suddenly popping up, killing those who walk over them.
specing: sofar: but a bit too bleak - everything is too gray
sofar: specing: hah, try some of the levels. But yeah the color palette is on purpose a bit less saturated
sofar: specing: I went for a look that stands out a bit and doesn't do oversaturated textures
sofar: there's enough of that already ;)
Warr1024: sofar: is it possible to reset a box?  I'm not sure but I think I might have broken one of the tutorial ones, maybe hitting buttons too fast?
Warr1024: Welp, I'm stuck on box 27...
Warr1024: I see a mechanism but I'm all out of buttons to push to activate it
Warr1024: n/m, that was pretty well hidden, considering the level had such simple geometry overall
sofar: heh
sofar: there's walkthrough videos for the tutorial parts just for that :)
independent_: ugh... nodecore is horrible. i started playing at 19:00, but when i looked up from my computer, i saw it was 22:57. ugh! i need to submit an issue - "gameplay too immersive"
independent_: goodnight
Warr1024: :-D
Warr1024: I'm used to expecting there to be timing issues if you trigger mechanisms too quickly so that's why I misled myself into thinking I might have busted box 27
Warr1024: though I assumed that tutorial levels get the most testing ... but then, not everyone actually checks race conditions
Warr1024: but the button I needed was pretty obvious, it was just hard to reach with the sneak mechanic disabled and my acrophobia.
independent_: Just finished backing up t the hdd
independent_: just need to cpy over some MT backups
independent_: i need to make another copy for remote backup, then i will be fine.
erlehmann: <rubenwardy> Minetest has builtin support for prometheus, you don't necessarily need that mod
erlehmann: rubenwardy oh that's news to me!
copygirl: Hi everyone, I was wondering if you can help me. A while ago I moved my Minetest server from running in its own folder to simply running it in my user's .minetest folder.
copygirl: Ever since then, we have not been able to take damage, as if enable_damage was set to false (or not set, as I heard it's the default?).
copygirl: However, both the minetest.conf and world.mt file have enable_damage set to true.
copygirl: The only thing I think that could be off is that the world is not in .minetest/worlds/world, but simply in .minetest/world
copygirl: I'm running the game nodecore (which respects the enable_damage setting) and was told to ask in here.
copygirl: Oh yeah, we are running Minetest 5.3.0.
BuckarooBanzai: !seen MTDiscord
MinetestBot: BuckarooBanzai: mtdiscord was last seen at 2021-07-05 18:40:00 UTC on #minetest-hub
independent56: sad
independent56: acc no, i hope it stays away
independent56: !seen MTDiscord
MinetestBot: independent56: mtdiscord was last seen at 2021-07-06 05:11:50 UTC on #minetest-hub
independent56: 0_0
independent56: what does YOU use docker for?
sfan5: copygirl: did you update any mods in the meantime? I remember that being a problem sometimes
sfan5: you could also test your hypothesis by moving it back and seeing if it starts working again
totenkoph: how do I check the recipe table
totenkoph: in linux
sfan5: with minetest game? there's a recipe tab ingame since 5.4 otherwise look for a craftguide mod
totenkoph: okay
totenkoph: why aren't there animals in my local game?
totenkoph: or lava as i dig down..there is no creature
Kimapr: independent56: you are actually in a better internet situation than me. my ip is not only dynamic, it's shared. i can't, like, host public stuff on it, it's behind carrier grade nat
BuckarooBanzai: totenkoph: what mods (specifically for mobs) do you have installed?
totenkoph: none
totenkoph: what mods do I need to simulate an average minecraft game
BuckarooBanzai: what game? minetest_game, mineclone?
totenkoph: minetest
Kimapr: if you want minecraft but not minecraft, use mineclone2. it's a minetest game (minetest is an engine) that tries to mimic minecraft as closely as possible
BuckarooBanzai: the minetest_games comes without mobs, you need to add some yourself, for example mobs_redo, mobs_monster, etc
BuckarooBanzai: game*
totenkoph: ah okay thank you
Kimapr: totenkoph: go to content tab in the main menu, click on "browse mods", you can install games and mods from there. mineclone is probably what you're looking for
totenkoph: https://i.imgur.com/2w15gPA.png
totenkoph: where?
BuckarooBanzai: totenkoph: i think you need to update your minetest version :/
copygirl: sfan5: I'm not entirely sure but I might have updated Nodecore itself.
totenkoph: alright..
Kimapr: totenkoph: what's your minetest version?
Kimapr: seems like 0.4
totenkoph: 0.4.17
totenkoph: im compiling the latest one from github now
totenkoph: got it..downloading
BuckarooBanzai: totenkoph: you might want to use a branch from earlier this year, the current master needs the new mtirrlicht stuff afaik (which makes it a _bit_ more complex to install)
BuckarooBanzai: 5.4.1 was the latest without it i think
totenkoph: yeah that's what Im playing now but some most mods have unsatisfied dependencies
totenkoph: how do i grow wheat seeds
totenkoph: it grows on wet soil
totenkoph: how do i make the soil wet
totenkoph: ah got it
independent56: the advtrains wiki might be down
independent56: i can't access it
BuckarooBanzai: independent56: (i don't use the forum anymore so i answer here) there are some docs on how to set it up loacally: https://github.com/minetest-monitoring/monitoring/blob/master/doc/standalone.md the whole thing is better manageable with docker though, just saying...
BuckarooBanzai: *locally
independent56: Hmmm... yeah docker... i am trying to learn it. Everyone likes it, and i have no idea on where i can use it. i am thinking of "installing" applications on my webserver using it.
BuckarooBanzai: the dashboards can be exported on https://monitoring.minetest.land
BuckarooBanzai: containers make applications more portable and reproducible IMO
BuckarooBanzai: but its not for everybody i think, it adds another complexity/tool layer
independent56: Hmmm... i am considering moving to a homelab. Replicating the setup approximately seems a bit messy, so i might as well migrate to docker.
independent56: Oh and also, just a heads up, i uploaded the IRC message for future reference.
independent56: https://pastebin.com/ZCWyDYtT
independent56: should i be concerned?
sfan5: no
Warr1024: There should be a whole bunch of similar crap all over your logs :-)
Warr1024: Welcome to the internet, check your armor and don't mind the scans...
independent56: What is this? it looks like someone tried to remove stuff/install stuff... My stupid (/j), inexperienced brain is of no help
Warr1024: It looks like you got vulnerability-scanned.  As long as you're not running whatever broken PHP app they're trying to exploit there's little cause for concern.
Warr1024: This is basically just another kind of internet weather phenomenon
Warr1024: Comes with the territory of running a publicly-reachable web server.
independent56: hmmm... so unconsentual pentesting?
sfan5: even less, it's not a scan they're just throwing exploits at the URL the web app would be
independent56: What should i do in the future?
Warr1024: I mean it's a "scan" in the sense that they're scanning the internet for vulnerable hosts, rather than that they're scanning you specifically for vulnerabilities.
Warr1024: If you're not vulnerable there's nothing to do.
Warr1024: except maybe grow jaded.
independent56: Ah... i get you. So just some lowlife trolling other people.
Benrob0329: Random bots trying to break into your server is common, just be sure to keep on top of the security settings and don't leave things like root SSH login on.
Warr1024: If I were to guess, rather than "trolling" they're looking to add nodes to a botnet that they can use to sell services like cryptomining or DDoS.
Krock: hmm.. this mod seems kinda suspicious. https://krock-works.uk.to/minetest/modSearch.php?st=0&at=0&q=rickroll
Benrob0329: Krock, the URL gives it away
Warr1024: (and on the discord-side, the embed doesn't help)
Krock: Benrob0329: well yes
Benrob0329: You've gotta at least use some kind of a code word for it
GreenXenith: Id post a "you have no power here" lotr gif or "I have no such weakness" star wars gif but I dont think IRC will display it 😏
Krock: no, for a search engine that's a bad practice
Warr1024: How the hell is there no actual rickroll mod for MT?
independent56: Yeah, i kinda turn on ssh for when i go to school and need to use termux to run mapserver... should disable root access..
Krock: !mod rickroll
MinetestBot: Krock: Rick Roller [rickroll] by taikedz - https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=15649 - https://github.com/taikedz-mt/rickroll
GreenXenith: also https://github.com/ChimneySwift/stickpack/ has a rickstick
Warr1024: You can allow root access over ssh, but you need a damn good password, or disable passwords and only allow pubkey.  If you can't maintain a pretty high security standard then you should probably just lock it down so at least they don't automatically know one correct username to attack.
Krock: okay that stickpack seems funny
GreenXenith: It is
Warr1024: On the other hand, don't focus just on protecting root either, because xkcd 1200
Benrob0329: If I had physical server access, I'd probably just use a local access point and disable SSH entirely
Benrob0329: the best security is not having anything that can be exploited :^) </halfjoke>
Warr1024: There is something to be said about just not having anything worth stealing, but unfortunately if you have an internet connection and a non-zero amount of computing power, it's worth at least minimal effort for them to try, i.e. they at least try all the turnkey exploits.
independent56: Root disabled... and yeah, i need a way to use crontab to disable prot forwarding for ssh until 08:40-15:30.
Benrob0329: I hope those are fake times and you didn't just reveal your server's more vulnerable times in a public channel
Warr1024: Reminds me of at my old company back when they had a habit of sending all exceptions as emails to a mailing list to all the devs.  We basically ignored those emails until one morning after a pentest scan when email was basically unusable because of the tens of thousands of emails that came in over the scan.
Warr1024: Benrob, you don't necessarily know i56's time zone though, so...
independent56: They aren't... maybe i should tone it to breaktimes at school
Krock: > -independent56- TIME Tue Jul  6 20:06:36
Krock: UTC+1
Benrob0329: RIP
Warr1024: When it comes to security don't try to do anything too clever or tricky.  Just turn off what you don't need, have decent passwords, use pubkeys where feasible, don't install random shit, don't run anything written in PHP 😏 ...
independent56: SSH turned off in port forwarding on router
Benrob0329: Timezones are fairly easy to guess based on context too though, like I had guessed that 56 was probably from the UK or close by (though I can't remember what clued me in on that right now)
independent56: 0_0 (cries in XAMPP wordpress and dokwuiki)
Warr1024: If you block admin SSH access then if someone manages to get in via a web server zero-day while you're away from home, then you can't get in to stop them from using your machine for whatever until SSH is back up ... so maybe not the best trick.
Warr1024: Haha, PHP is one of the worst languages so of COURSE a ton of really useful stuff is written in it.
independent56: Eh, "sudo su" is the way i do it.
Warr1024: There is sudo -i
Benrob0329: as well as sudo -s
independent56: how do i disable them? ddg returns nothing.
independent56: I spent all of breaktime memorising my ip adress.
independent56: What a lowlife i am...
specing: it sure looks like you got pwned, independent56
independent56: Where? on that paste i showed?
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/uQAu4tR
independent56: So... the scan is like a storm. A nice spectacle to look at, but when you have an improperly built house (server), it may all collapse.... ah, i get it now.
independent56: Should it be easy as just changing some router settings to get the webserver up? Becua ei have heard you ahev to call the ISP and get them to open up the neighbourhood port.
sfan5: huh?
ingar: most ISPs don't open port 80 on home connections (at least here), it's better to rent a VPS
independent56: Hmm... Yeah, i had to do it myself on the router. But nothing that imtimidating.
independent56: And my VPS? a PS homelab.
Warr1024: First of all, it's port 443, not 80 :trollface:
Warr1024: Some ISPs block common ports, but not all and there's no absolute standard for it.  The old Microsoft ports like 135 are the most common ones I've seen.  80/443 seems like a toosup.
Warr1024: tossup dammit
independent56: oh... w-w- wow...
Warr1024: I've had ISPs that have a "no servers" policy but I basically just make the "landing" page of my web server look like it could be a router admin interface or something and only give out links to internal URLs.  It's all over TLS anyway so it's harder for them to prove that any real "web serving" is going on.
independent56: hmm... let me check EE's docs (my ISP is obvious from any IP lookup)
Warr1024: They aren't necessarily gonna tell you either, tbh.  There's always a "we reserve the right to take measures we unilaterally deem reasonable to 'manage the network'" clause ... but then, they often aren't actually watching unless you create enough traffic to cause a problem or make it into like the top 1% of consumers.
ingar: hence the VPS option, screw my IPS
independent56: hmm, intresting. so a rule of thumb is "sure, operate a server. just be careful it stays a backyard project"
Warr1024: It should be possible to get a VPS decent enough to run an MT server for between $5 and $10 USD per month.
Warr1024: If you've got an income, VPS is a good option; even if you want the actual hardware to be physically local to you, having a VPS to front for you and act as a proxy or something can be nice.
sfan5: I expect just about any ISP to have a no servers policy on thier consumer plans
sfan5: perhaps with restrictions on commerciality
sfan5: in short personal, non-commercial stuff is extremely unlikely to cause any issues
independent56: ah, nice.
Warr1024: Yeah, the problem with ISP "no server" policies is that servers are hard to really define, and anything CAN be a server if they want it to be and they generally offer no meaningful dispute power to consumers.  So flying under the radar is about the best you can hope for :-)
ingar: I just don't like opening too many ports to my home server
Ingar: I ran an MT server on an ARM VPS once though, it ran quite fine actually
Warr1024: There's a good chance they're too busy dealing with that one guy on your network segment who's used 60% of the bandwidth alone and gotten 2 copyright notices already, so it's usually not something to sweat too bad.
independent56: nice, ipv6
independent56: (about joiner)
Warr1024: Opening ports is kinda a PITA.  I kind of like the fact that with HTTPS you can mux everything with enough reverse proxies and have an arbitrarily-large URL space to allocate from, and the actual specific services can be kept from evesdroppers that way..
independent56: Meh, for me it's fine. To open i set a name, device, ports, and protocol. to close one, i just redirect it to something which will never be online again.
Warr1024: I just don't like having to do network management stuff.
independent56: I love it. it's an escape from the monotony of watching youtube all day.
Warr1024: Also the next natural evolution from running an MT server at home is running 3 of them :-D
independent56: i'm gonna restart my router in a weird attempt to enable ipv6
independent56: bye
independent56: Turns out i broke the router, fuck me.
independent56: If mum was at home, then i would have been punished severely.
independent56: lesson? "Dont touch things you don't know about"
Warr1024: If you never touch things you don't know about then you'll probably always not know about them.
Warr1024: but sometimes getting punished is part of the lesson too :-)
independent56: haha... my punishment was a terrifying 5 minutes of thinking about the factory reset
independent56: luckly i managed to conenct locally and disable ipv6. so muh nicer
independent56: yeah... i shouldn't touch misson-critical systems like router settings unles si know what i'm doing. Docker is fine to play with. But not rm -r /.
Jordach: you know you can literally google what is my IP rather than trying to even remember it
Jordach: probably even a shell script for it
rubenwardy: haha, I did the same thing when I was 14 and trying to host a MT server
independent56: i need to remember it, as i have no domain. Often, i end up showing it [my wiki] to teachers at shcool on chromebooks.
rubenwardy: ended up using an ethernet cable and telnet to connect to the router and fix it using command line
rubenwardy: I don't know how I did that without the internet
independent56: Wait... minetest was around when you were 14?
Warr1024: independent, you really could use a dynamic DNS
Warr1024: yeah, ruben young af apparently
independent56: i wish my mother would buy me a domain
rubenwardy: Hm, 15 actually. I'm 24, and I joined in 2012
sfan5: do you know about free ddns services?
Warr1024: I've found a number of free ddns services.  I've got a paid one, which has proven more reliable, but I've kept a couple free ones around as backups.
independent56: well... minetest was released at 2012 (i think), so that means... (2021-2012)+14, that means 23
independent56: oh wait their age was rvealed
independent56: hmmm... tell me more please.
j45: https://minetest.land/
rubenwardy: No, Minetest was created on 2010-10-10
rubenwardy: I believe that's the agreed upon birthday
sfan5: independent56: http://www.duckdns.org/
independent56: close enough
rubenwardy: http://www.minetest.land/
j45: (the link i sent above is a free dynamic DNS)
rubenwardy: (www. not the root domain)
Lone_Wolf: minetest.land ftw
j45: Yh
independent56: http://56i.duckdns.org
independent56: it works!
j45: Nice one
independent56: but i do set my sights on a subdomainless domain
independent56: one which is truly mine, where i can make my own paid subdomain to domain service >:-)
j45: :}
independent56: subdomains of subdomains make sense here: wiki.56i.duckdns.org, wordpress.56i.duckdns.org...
independent56: looked at the access log, looks like someone was exploring my webserve
GreenXenith: >Minetest was created on 2010-10-10
GreenXenith: what an awesome day to be born
independent56: yeah... i wasn't born on 2006-06-06, i was born on 2006-08.
wwar: was born in 14th march
wwar: Einstein guy borned that day too
GreenXenith: guys
GreenXenith: Minetest was made on 2010-10-10 which can be expressed as 10-10-10. 101010 is 42 in binary. Minetest is the answer.
wwar: Haha, minecraft guys dont have similar thing
Extex: I can't get farming redo to work
Extex: It just remains as the mtg farming
Extex: Isn't it supposed to override it?
sfan5: easiest way is to actually delete farming from MTG
GreenXenith: Its supposed to override though
Warr1024: A second-level domain is not "truly yours", it's only 33% less not-yours than a third-level :-/
Extex: Ok I got it to work
Extex: Had to put it in worldmods though
appguru: Or just go for snake case and get wiki_56i.duckdns.org, wordpress_56i.duckdns.org, ...
erlehmann: +++ ATH0
Warr1024: Pretty sure you need a 2 second pause after +++ but not a space...
independent56: shhh... let me tell you a secret: there is an easy way to run minetest from terminal how you like it: "up+up+up+up+down+enter"
j45: Independent56: im 15 years old and have no free time xD 😅
AristotIe: on linux, where does worldedit save schematics?
sfan5: world folder IIRC
sfan5: pretty much the only possibility because mod security prevents writing to other folders
independent56: Instead of 2.26.38.198, my IP is 95.148.245.87.
sfan5: happens
independent56: I hate dynamic IP.
independent56: Whats the name of that thing which adds live statistics for server, like lag, builds, and stuff like that?
rubenwardy: prometheus
rubenwardy: https://wiki.minetest.net/Server_Metrics_using_Prometheus
independent56: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22473 Found it
rubenwardy: Minetest has builtin support for prometheus, you don't necessarily need that mod
rubenwardy: that mod has a lot more statistics though
rubenwardy: CTF runs a fork of Minetest with more stats
independent56: Hmm... I wish it was more like mapserver -  a selfhosted way to run statistics of your server. with mapserver, it is how you see what to explore. with this, it is about insight into the servers
erlehmann: i think i figured out how to easily add rumble support to minetest
erlehmann: anyone working on that area?
specing: erlehmann: rumble?
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/5eYAPGy I dont get it. i try to make a quadrule track, and avdtrains screws me up.
independent56: ahaha i downloaded a map from LF, didnt do anything ecept open it, and ran out of memory XD
Ingar: I have 4 sticks of 8GiB DDR4-2400 for sale
independent56: For £5? Yes please!
independent56: how do i reset all track sections in advtrains? I want to do something litkk "/reset_tcb here 16" or "/reset_tcb *"
independent56: I need to visit a server which actually uses the bridger mod. it's fustrating trying to copy images.
independent56: VanessaE What is that mod in your server that splits unfied inventory into groups so you dont have to resort to searching?
calcul0n_: independent56, i think pandorabox has the bridger mod
independent56: Hmm... will look
VanessaE: independent56: it's a part of UI.
independent56: How do i get it on my server? do i wield it? do i click a download link and do "enable_local_mod_downlaoded_thing = true"
VanessaE: wat
independent56: What do you mean?
independent56: Like, how is it part of UI? is it part of the core?
independent56: Oh wait sorry, unified invoentory
VanessaE: Ui as in Unified Inventory, duh :P
independent56: So i am running an outdated version? 0_0
VanessaE: that categories feature was added in UI git some months ago.
independent56: "months"
* independent56: starts git clone
VanessaE: commit 6e6383f0821908e762d8fde8a13d7a083a642553
VanessaE: Author: Oversword <bionic@oversword.co.uk>
VanessaE: Date:   Mon Apr 5 19:07:14 2021 +0100
VanessaE: ok so a few months. :)
independent56: I am gonna quickly take some of pandora's mods... i like them!
independent56: the amount of progress in the tech industry terrifies me /j gtg
Warr1024: "I found this bug in NodeCore alpha" " That's because you're running an outdated version" "But I downloaded this only 2 hours ago?" "That's why you're only 3 versions behind."
VanessaE: heh
independent56: i wish progress was that slow
Warr1024: Slow is the reason NodeCore itself split off from alpha; it used to follow the alpha cycle.  The main release only gets updated like every week or two.  Major packages should probably consider going to a multiple cycle model like that.
independent56: Hmm.
independent56: i have got the pandorabox mods i like, and am in the process of copying the world directory so i can test compatibility on the live world.
independent56: No players rely on me to have the world online, so i can just run on the live version like it's no big deal
Warr1024: If you're calling NodeCore "slow" though then I'd really like to know what package you're comparing it against, because NC is considered like a pathological case for rolling releases...
independent56: I was joking.
VanessaE: note to self: update NC on my server later.  it must be 50 versions out-of-date by now :P
independent56: XD
Warr1024: Oh damn, gitlab's analytics are limited to 2000 commits so I can't see the full data on the dev branch 🙄
independent56: I've just found out about PHP's "easter eggs" (security vulnrabilities). How horrible they truly are.
specing: Wow, someone still uses gitlab? Get githubbed asap
specing: you could be supporting the proprietary closed-source monopoly today!
VanessaE: heh
independent56: haha
VanessaE: it could be worse
Warr1024: I use git; the lab part is just incidental, and I actively avoid any lock-in-esque features.
VanessaE: he could have chosen notabug or one of those other oddball sites like TenPlus1, or rolled his own like the advrains guys :)
VanessaE: Warr: to be fair going with a decent site has at least one advantage: a built-in public bug/pull request tracker.
VanessaE: hosting your own gitxxxx instance means you gotta come up with some other alternative for bugs/PRs, like ancient stuff like a mailing list or something
specing: url = https://github.com/minetest-mirrors/advtrains.git
specing: despicable
specing: some idiot went and started pulling everything to github
specing: same with /minetest-mods
sfan5: giving people the choice to use platforms they want, how horrible
VanessaE: it IS horrible if the choices offered all suck for the end user :P
Warr1024: If I didn't want people mirroring my stuff then I wouldn't have made it open source.
Jonathon: Specing: always talking down people that dont agree with your views: "despicable"
specing: No, only on people that are long-term shooting themselves (and everyone else) in the foot
specing: Warr you misunderstood, it's not about that
independent56: Where is this "github pull"? where is the link?
specing: The point is that someone decided to systematically centralise everything on GitHub, for all of Minetest
Warr1024: Says "mirrors" right in the title, looks pretty clear that mirroring is the goal.
specing: for all of us
Warr1024: Offering a centralized version of everything sounds great for GH users, assuming they can keep the mirror up to date
Warr1024: Sounds like you're not a GH user so it doesn't really affect you though.  You'd just get yours from upstream
specing: It also makes it convenient to use github, as everything is centralised there and not elsewhere
Jonathon: "Someone decided to systematically centralise everything on GitHub, for all of Minetest" its literally just mirror. Stop trying to project this past that. We all know if it was on gitlab or some other foss platform you most likely wouldnt even be complainimg
specing: effectively pulling more people into that walled garden
specing: /minetest-mods actually is systematic centralisation
specing: I wouldn't be complaining because FOSS platforms aren't walled gardens
Jonathon: Lol, thanks for making my point
specing: the point being that I'm against walled gardens?
Warr1024: Why do you hate them though?  It seems like if it were a user freedom thing then you'd be forced to respect the fact that most users like walled gardens, and some even actively seek them out.  If you assume users are not making informed decisions (and you'd be right in many cases but certainly not all) then you projecting your choices onto them is basically what walled gardens do.
Warr1024: I don't particularly like walled gardens personally but I respect the rights of users to inflict whatever they choose on themselves, and platforms that serve that need have as much right to exist as any other.
sfan5: users choosing walled gardens is a step towards having walled gardens and a monopoly, at which point individuals no longer have a choice
Warr1024: I think open source has already ironically debunked the hypothesis that proprietary software forms natural monopolies.  Ultimately people WANT to create and treating creativity as a scarce resource is basically absurd beyond a certain point.  There is no way to control the supply.
Warr1024: If they made open source software illegal then we'd just have a lot more illegal software.
independent56: 1+
rubenwardy: GitHub isn't a walled garden as git is decentralised and there's open APIs for things like issues
rubenwardy: Although it would be cool if issues had a git repo, like the wikia
specing: fossil has in-repo issues
Warr1024: I actually go as far as keeping all my issues in the git repo as plain text files.  It also manages prioritization and hierarchical issues naturally that way, and forces me to keep the issues somewhat pruned.
rubenwardy: I'd like there to be some activitypub or federated way to make emails that can handle rich features like line comments
rubenwardy: Would be cool to make PRs between instances
rubenwardy: Email patches suck
rubenwardy: Well, you could hide the emails behind a nice front-end
Warr1024: I've used fossil before but it felt like some of their design decisions ... each wiki page is a separate independent history branch, so their wiki effectively reinvents the single worst aspect of CVS...
rubenwardy: Eek a branch per wiki page doesn't make sense
rubenwardy: Git can track history per file
Warr1024: I can see SOME logic to it, i.e. since wiki edits generally aren't staged across multiple pages.
Warr1024: I have some wikis where I track history by just capturing snapshots of the database state using git, but that itself is sub-ideal because I miss some intermediate edits between snaps.
Pexin: VanessaE: I find your views on digtrons quaint and hilarious. That is all   :]
VanessaE: KILL KILL KILL KILL
VanessaE: :P
specing: I've calculated that I'd take about 17000 years to digtron the whole map, assuming you do one 16x16 area from the surface to -31000
specing: quite surprisingly result given how fast they dig
specing: surprising*
specing: (with each digtron trip taking around 10 hours)
Pexin: specing: what delay setting?
Pexin: too low and it will bug out before completing one pass
specing: Pexin: 1 node/s (the default)
Pexin: HAHAHA
specing: ?
VanessaE: the problem with digtrons and such isn't how fast they dig or not.  it's that griefers will use them to trash things, and THAT takes time to repair.
VanessaE: even just scarring-up empty terrain
wwar: maybe make them dig stone and materials only?
Pexin: VanessaE: you must lurve chainsaws
VanessaE: chainsaws are disabled on my servers :P
VanessaE: besides, doesn't rollback work for those?
wwar: Doesnt it lag when you enable rollback? I tried rollback once few years ago and it made the server very laggy
VanessaE: not appreciably so.
Pexin: the server I play, we tend to think of digtrons more frequently as buildtrons
wwar: I think its better if you try to remove the ways people can use to grief
wwar: Better than waiting them to grief then rollbacking i mean
wwar: For digtrons, if you make them dig the stone and underground materials only, it wont be used to grief again i think
wwar: Chainsaws can have range limit for example 20 blocks radius,
VanessaE: right now chainsaws are broken.
wwar: They are? ah, didnt know that, i used them 2 years ago
VanessaE: yep.
VanessaE: in a way that I won't describe here until someone more qualified than me verifies a fix ShadowNinja proposed.
wwar: I see
independent56: I love digtrons. they make quick work on terrible viaducts. 1+.
independent56: acc no... 5+
independent56: Is there a homedecor mod, but for space shuttles? i have scifi nodes, and it is a contrast XD
Krock: !mod space
MinetestBot: Krock: Subspace Walker Tool [subspacewalker] by bell07 - https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=15564 - https://github.com/minetest-mods/subspacewalker
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/jU0nGdj
independent56: my spaceship looks wrong with homedecore?
wwar: Are devs aware of that bug where, you use a stack of nodes, place them very fast, the stack ends and some extras blocks gets placed too and only the one who placed them can see..
wwar: them
sfan5: the exact conditions dunno but it's known that client side prediction sometimes can go wrong
wwar: Hm, so does it deserve opening an issue
sfan5: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11255
independent56: Well, in all cases it happened to me, they automatically got removed
wwar: Seems like what i was mentioning
wwar: It doesnt remove for me before 2-3 mins and wifi is good
wwar: Seems like the node placing is faster than the thing that checks how many nodes remain in player's inventory to me..
CWz: I wonder what ever happened to RobbieF and the pixelshadow servers
Benrob0329: Cat5 is still around, but I don't think his daughter ever came back for another season of the web series they were putting together.
Benrob0329: Oh..oh no that was 4 years ago
Benrob0329: 'Scuse me I'm gonna go have an early life crisis now /s
independent56: everyone i have talked to IRL about my minetest server was like "oh, so you play minecraft". Then i have to correct them and tell them the (basic) differences.
independent56: Another thing i find intresting is that people are completely different if you discuss different topics. Once i bring up something, some pople are like "dont talk about it - banned!",  But if you say something else, they open up conversation. The best example i have seen is a forum post, where people are angry at me, and a few posts later have very serious discussion about advtrains, one i started.
independent56: real/example quotes: "Get your a#& off our", "Yes, i consider your point... but i disagree to this extent"
Gustavo6046: Hey!
Gustavo6046: TenPlus1: I think I figured the issue
Gustavo6046: Items do not levitate / move upward by themselves
Gustavo6046: They just don't check if there is ground beneath them once they are already in the ground state
Gustavo6046: Oh
Gustavo6046: they do
Gustavo6046: It happened once after I gave it a while, items were still on the ground but breaking the block below would have them fall.
Gustavo6046: Maybe I have to wait more?
Gustavo6046: Whooa there
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=nature:space What do you think of my theories?
j45: Very interesting :P
independent56: yeah, admins need fun too!
j45: I have never heard of a sysadmin(like yourself) that has enough time to write up theories about the universe of a sandbox multiplayer game... This must be a first
independent56: I'm a 14 yr old. i have plenty
erlehmann: <specing> consumer hardware doesen't have docs
erlehmann: <specing> (unless they got leaked, like in the case of my thinkpad)
erlehmann: specing, gib thinkpad leaks lol
specing: erlehmann: all you need is to know its codename. T400/R400 mobo is called malibu3
specing: then use duckduck to get the .pdf
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/UyKa3gy Yay! After learning the tcb on crossing trick, i can get two trains running past each other at a junction!
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/hF22TOI I finally built the pillars.
independent56: "it looks like ass and you should be ashamed"
independent56: Vanessa quote
specing: savage
Ingar: tell her it's brutalism
independent56: Nah... the other pillars are so much nicer
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/BYgeeVo
independent56: here is the stark contrast
MiniontobyPI: hey
MiniontobyPI: Check my log file please: https://termbin.com/k4lf
MiniontobyPI: I was restarting my servers to update the mods and then it not running becuase of a error, then i tried rebuilding but still error
MiniontobyPI: pls help
y5nw: I wonder why you pass "-f CMakefiles/Makefile2" to make
MiniontobyPI: idk?
y5nw: Oh, that's part of make
MiniontobyPI: https://termbin.com/94gg
MiniontobyPI: is the folder content
MiniontobyPI: minetest:~/minetest $ ls lib/
MiniontobyPI: gmp     jsoncpp lua
MiniontobyPI: minetest:~/minetest $
MiniontobyPI: /usr/local/lib/libsqlite3.so.37.12 Is the one i got, but it wants to use an older one for some reason
independent56: I'm just wondering, why do so many railways on servers have sidings? what's their use?
sfan5: try explicitly rerunning cmake using "cmake ."
y5nw: independent56: depends. Some allow access to freight stations; some are used as bypasses
y5nw: (that's what I can think of so far)
independent56: ah, cool.
independent56: What about the kind with a bumper at the end?
y5nw: some sort of depot I suppose?
y5nw: Some might also be used for reversing the train (e.g. in mountains)
independent56: hmm, makes sense. I might use one to temporarly store a prototype train for my volcano express. It can be released when the interlocking is finished.
VanessaE: [07-03 05:50] <independent56> "it looks like ass and you should be ashamed"
VanessaE: Yep.  absolute shit.  make that one into fertilizer.
VanessaE: ;)
independent56: XD
independent56: NEVER let me use worldedit /j
VanessaE: haha
y5nw: I wonder if I should start writing a junction builder/planner for advtrains. Then it would be crap :P
VanessaE: independent56: but you know, sometimes I wish there was a WE feature or tool that would make placing the piers easy.  you know, punch a node to set [1] or to place the pier, with nice contours at the top, and embedding itself gracefully a few meters into the seafloor
independent56: Hmmm.... what i do is do things seperetly. i build a nice top, then copy it. i then get a straight piller, drive it somehwere like -100, and copy that over.
VanessaE: well that works fine for a fixed-length pier with no fancy design but unless it's a centered column, you'd only be able to do one side of the bridge, and you couldn't automagically put a nice cap or base on it.
VanessaE: think two-column suspension bridges like the Golden Gates vs single-column like the Sunshine Skyway
VanessaE: I mean, you WE-in a long-ass 2-3 km flyover, then have to go back and build all the columns/piers by hand
VanessaE: teeeeeeeeeeeedious.
independent56: But it is the shared pain of minetest players. It's your punishment for building that long bridge!
y5nw: Use a digtron that builds pillars every x meters. Problem solved
VanessaE: digtron!  KILL KILL KILL
VanessaE: :P
independent56: I remember when i built part of a viaduct by hand in a server, then i was told to use a digitron because i was causing "immense pain" and "it looks bad anyways". It's a bit sad it's use has dissapeared now.
MiniontobyPI: sfan5: I did that too: $cmake . -DBUILD_CLIENT=0 -DBUILD_SERVER=1 -DENABLE_SYSTEM_JSONCPP=1 -DENABLE_LEVELDB=0 -DENABLE_POSTGRESQL=0 -DENABLE_SPATIAL=0 -DENABLE_GETTEXT=0 -DENABLE_CURSES=0 -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1;
sfan5: if that doesn't work delete CMakeCache.txt first
independent56: <independent56> I'm just wondering, why do so many railways on servers have sidings? what's their use?
VanessaE: nostalgia.
independent56: In this case, you can look at the world's biggest and most realistic server: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siding_(rail)#Functions
independent56: I was replying to my own stupidity
VanessaE: where I grew up, it wasn't uncommon to build actual trestles/bridges with railings, perhaps for worker protection, I'm not sure.
MiniontobyPI: oke
VanessaE: oh a siding is something different
MiniontobyPI: i removed CMakeCache.txt
MiniontobyPI: then redid the cmake
MiniontobyPI: ld.so: cmake: can't load library 'libcurl.so.26.9'
MiniontobyPI: Killed
MiniontobyPI: oh wait
MiniontobyPI: it works
MiniontobyPI: (I was updating the files)
independent56: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/USvTqVGAfJN_SxG53sXfa3tnaQ8GCojzxiHatcIAuxqX4aib6BbE3-3NDxTC9tQtv5ZGb5IDw0TTXAtFrd8XdTSOz4U8C0hQpxCKH1sv2oDvdrJVmkpgt3t-Pv2z3jYqFbsrROCExJdstck4yfnQ5maEdMX_s9OhAnOZDEk0u_7Cy00Ybgh7fsd_zCes9IKcX9ARFo_iJrHj0yHDQ_c5cYMtKygvBl74x3usSbp9ABWnOQmJd2ywIpOGRb9h3N5aVt3TO00B1vm2jfly-Kvo_jbSEV1NimNkqAqhEj8BVRSZxR2gzi4nPRx6l_osc4jH6xOuxJuu-hQVAwqGAMUdRWEUIrSDgRIQ3VsN-kIkHlgacACpaJ-d-Sc7BTN1tpewPBRciu0yBZfOlSGc10sl8RsSSkrlUOskL
independent56: k902s42JCHTkQbpZXNGvJWs5iopFq69VmA0FZVDxl0nVGEaeJbqxrdygfa_DRi_l2QprAVQlpq1t31yVT8AtyR-uxkMVJDPnK7_x7gMrgAiiqua4LqDQ69Yq6k-NLjP9POnPRkZcQz22nd1OnmN-kb9BzfSxtfOSkmEkay-A-Bu4ELIWRyEwDli6LhFSezUUIAlyG1rteHU6TwFrb7ZFaf783uA9MpoqATO3UnkvARVBNA2HbYrUnPBhHuyNrzTF--3NJREQMF2RMb-Jgmr1Eet7qg41XU3TvX0YGK81KvZOCuNT8-Xau4=w1224-h918-no?authuser=0
independent56: our local viaduct has a handrail
independent56: and sorry, i forgot i needed a link shortener
specing: > VanessaE | I mean, you WE-in a long-ass 2-3 km flyover, then have to go back and build all the columns/piers by hand
specing: Imagine having to build it all by hand
VanessaE: independent56: your [not] stupidity aside :P  players just like to build realistically sometimes, that's all.  I mean, look on my Traintable server.  it's still in its infancy but players treat it mostly like reality.  rails have sidings, dead spurs, guarded bridges, 2by2 track turnouts, the whole bit.
MiniontobyPI: [100%] Linking CXX executable ../bin/minetestserver
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/TGBMvZE
MiniontobyPI: [100%] Built target minetestserver
MiniontobyPI: sfan5: thanks
VanessaE: independent56: https://daconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/worldmaps/Traintable_World/map.html#21/-210.00000/-513.25000 (like I said, still in its infancy yet)
independent56: wow
independent56: i prefer LF's map for stealing track ideas, but yours works.
independent56: I wish i could play on your server, but my computer lags far too much
specing: independent56: how long before your own server becomes unplayable for you?
independent56: 0_0
independent56: I mean, it works fine on literally most other servers, but i guess vanessa's server is far too haevy for my computer'
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=guidelines:vehicles and i am opposed to the roads here
VanessaE: so turn off HDX ;)
VanessaE: clients generally need the better part of 2 GB to run well on Dreambuilder servers.  8+ if you use HDX :)
independent56: and me, with only 8 measly GB
VanessaE: (which is also why it takes a top of the line model to play on one, if you use a phone/tablet)
independent56: So... how to turn off? what is the setting name?
VanessaE: it's a texture pack, which you're probably not using :P
independent56: oh... so i reenable my own?
VanessaE: oh you really were using it???
VanessaE: I was just making a joke :)
VanessaE: but yeah you'd need to switch back to something lightweight if you only have 8 GB.  or try a lower resolution version
independent56: i wasn't. But still, i might try running in a smaller window?
VanessaE: wont' help.
VanessaE: maybe your OS just eats too much of your RAM
VanessaE: 8GB isn't all that much for a modern PC anymore
VanessaE: mine has 16 GB and sometimes seems to just barely get by
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/fGU0Vzr
independent56: works well
specing: maybe independent56  needs a LDX texture pack
specing: VanessaE: web browsers eat it all
Ingar: flat colors
specing: not OS
VanessaE: specing: good point
VanessaE: though on Windows the browser almost IS the OS
VanessaE: :P
Ingar: a lightweight linux desktop runs in 2-4G, for windows I recommend 8GB min and 16GB if you do any real work. 256GB if you use Teams
independent56: XD
Ingar: for a new PC 32GB looks like the future proof option
VanessaE: top - 08:06:53 up 2 days, 15:54,  1 user,  load average: 1.26, 0.62, 0.55
VanessaE: Tasks: 292 total,   1 running, 291 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
VanessaE: %Cpu(s):  5.0 us,  3.2 sy,  0.0 ni, 91.1 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.6 si,  0.0 st
VanessaE: MiB Mem :  16007.7 total,   4769.1 free,   6445.6 used,   4793.0 buff/cache
VanessaE: MiB Swap:  16384.0 total,  16384.0 free,      0.0 used.   8859.0 avail Mem
VanessaE: ^ Debian 10, XFCE, just a bunch of browser windows, hexchat, and a couple of terminals open, plus my media player running
Ingar: VanessaE: https://github.com/IngarKCT/sysinfo
VanessaE: oh hexchat has that command, but the above ^ is more specific :)
Ingar: I admit I'm currently in Windows though :p
VanessaE: my condolences. :)
Ingar: no worries, it's a beast. plenty of spare cpu cycles to waste on background snooping
VanessaE: haha
Ingar: but in all ernst, 16GB still seems to be enough for most applications these days
Ingar: and since the new gen consoles have 16GB I don't see that changing very soon
VanessaE: I keep eyeing a new computer, but every time I think the time to BUY comes around, something stops me from pulling the trigger on it.  recently, just all the G*d damned prices going through the roof, but just a few days ago I bought new monitors, which was not cheap (though i did pay a good price for what I got)
Ingar: one thing's for sure, NOW is definetly NOT the time to buy a computer
VanessaE: yeah
VanessaE: the build I had my eye on is priced at like twice what it's worth
Ingar: I could sell my 5700XT and make a profit
Ingar: it's insane
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/lib/exe/detail.php?id=news&media=track_index.png Small index of track widths i made, so people know what to use (3-void exlusively)
VanessaE: and most of that because the GPU alone is almost 4x its proper price
Ingar: there are some good signs though: the crypto implosion and I saw some ^*))XT's pop up at MSRP
Ingar: *6800XTs
VanessaE: independent56: fwiw, you can put stuff close to tracks now.  the collision handling was loosened greatly in the most recent commits
VanessaE: Ingar: "implosion" isn't the right word.  "downturn", sure, but it's still viable.  what needs to change though is everyone needs to move to proof of stake or something else that needs no actual mining :)
independent56: i saw in the forum post
independent56: this is why i need a "contentdb upgrade *" something
Ingar: VanessaE: personally I'm rather sceptic about the crypto business and avoid it. I mostly care about GPU prices :)
VanessaE: Ingar: skepticism is healthy as long as it doesn't turn into paranoia :P
specing: I assembled an iGPU computer 8 years ago and decided to postpone buying a real GPU until the state of GPUs on the market improves. Today it still only has an iGPU. It's sufficient for the vast majority of libre games, anyway.
specing: I'll probably build a 64G ram GPU-less machine in a few years
independent56: I am an ascended martian and as such, i have no need for "currency"
VanessaE: independent56: I doubt the latest commits have made it into a new stable release yet
independent56: "git clone" gang
VanessaE: well sure if you run from git
VanessaE: but contentdb doesn't work quite like that :)
VanessaE: though you know.. rubenwardy would it be feasible for the content store to offer "latest"/"daily"/"dev" for mods presented there? (this would cause the engine/client to just git clone or pull directly from the repo, without involving the contentdb server)
rubenwardy: Would require client support
VanessaE: indeed, though one assumes the client would use/depend on the OS's git
VanessaE: (or if there's some commonly-used library)
independent56: why not make every mod it's own contentdb git repo, which mirrors the original? Then people can use git as their contentdb CLI?
VanessaE: though in theory, the contentdb server could provide such a service, with each mod having a "foo-dev" equivalent package that could be installed like any stable release
VanessaE: but that would require a lot of work on your part, I imagine.
specing: VanessaE you could use spring's prdownloader
specing: In SpringRTS, you download a lobby client, which uses prdownloader to download games/engines/maps. First two can be directly from git, but git itself is not used on client machines
specing: (prdownloader is part of a lobby client)
VanessaE: specing: well, you mean independent56 could :P  while I do try to keep my mods on contentdb up-to-date, I'm happy to just manage things by normal git :)
independent56: hmm
specing: VanessaE: I'm saddened at how much common code is reimplemented across FOSS game projects
VanessaE: heh
VanessaE: *cough* irrlichtmt *cough*
specing: isn't irrlicht upstream dead, anyway?
VanessaE: dunno
specing: I keep saying that all FOSS 3D RTS should migrate to SpringRTS
specing: things like Warzone2100
VanessaE: but if it is, wouldn't it have been better to use something current instead of forking irr?
specing: SpringRTS is the best RTS engine that I know of, by far
VanessaE: (ignoring for the moment the effort that would be needed to convert over to some other engine)
specing: VanessaE: yes, but idk about FOSS first person engines
specing: Maybe Torque3D?
specing: But the author of a Torque3D game says that upstream has gone clinically insane
VanessaE: no idea
VanessaE: I don't know what's really bets for this
specing: but they otherwise said that Torque3D is the best FOSS first person game engine
VanessaE: well MT isn't really a "first person" game in the usual sense, is it?
specing: That's why I ommited the word 'shooter'
VanessaE: *nod* I caught that.
specing: but you are playing in first person
specing: and shooting nodes with a pickaxe...
VanessaE: ehhhhh...  yeah I suppose you can make that argument
VanessaE: though a typical first-person game doesn't have deformable terrain
VanessaE: or do they now?
specing: deformable terrain isnt unique to minetest
VanessaE: (my experience with more traditional such games ends with Quake 3/OA)
specing: the Sauerbraten engine supports it
specing: iirc
hecks: if you like sauerbraten, check out tesseract
specing: I don't
independent56: hedgewars!
specing: I'm very picky
specing: yes,hedgewars is very good
independent56: it has deformable terrain
specing: but it's not a first person [shooter]
specing: hecks: I don't like sci-fi arena shooters.They are all the same with avatars ridiculously bouncing around with ridiculous weapons, unrealistic physics and a tiny arena
hecks: =] ok
specing: hecks: check out Uebergame for a proper FOSS shooter
VanessaE: HEY don't shit on the BFG-10000. :)
hecks: i only play quake. 1v1 me anyone
Ingar: only painkeep
independent56: Is there any existing railyward code that is online and that i can use? my own code wont work.
independent56: advtrains LuaATC
y5nw: Just curious: what's your code?
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=proposals:re_railyard
VanessaE: hell of a good proposal there, independent56 .... a big blank page :P
independent56: wait what
y5nw: independent56: in your code, emptyTrack is undefined
independent56: I have'nt tested my code yet. i just know it wont work. I want better, public code
y5nw: also you probably want to send "BBWRD"..n.."SM" or something like that
y5nw: (for the "send all trains away" thing)
y5nw: as for live-checking trains, use external interrupts (<- be careful) and atc_id to check if a train is present
specing: lol
y5nw: live code: I would provide mine if I could be sure you can afford for psychological therapy after reading it
independent56: I can afford. (yes please, anything which is working)
specing: 150 gbp wont get you good therapy
independent56: The best therapy is eye cancer treatment, free on the NHS.
y5nw: independent56: sent with /msg. I don't think I wrote anything with shunt yards though
independent56: I'm gonna also peek at the luaATC in my local LF map save
y5nw: I don't think code is stored in node metadata
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/B4TixmB
independent56: turns out that all the railyard is analogue. no lua code, just pure interlocking>
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/CXymbRG I need to make sense of this.
y5nw: The first image you shows appears to be some code for a station
y5nw: I'm not sure what you are asking for in terms of "make sense of this"
independent56: It is. It is on the right hand side, so it's the output.
independent56: i need to understand how the routes are set and how the route sets into an unoccupied section
y5nw: TSS with LuaATC setup: http://git.bananach.space/advtrains.git/tree/advtrains_luaautomation/README.md?h=release-2.3.1#n99
y5nw: s/ setup//
independent56: 0_0 wait... so no need for diglines and such, only checking and setting? My code will be so much easier to write! thank you!
y5nw: RTFM
y5nw: And I don't think you can check/set routes with digilines
independent56: I meant that it would send "if event.type == "train" then send_digiline("occupied1") end" or such
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/htdocs/view/c2aa6386 Something like this?
y5nw: sort of. Except you might want to chagne it a bit if you want to handle certain situations
independent56: Such as...? I plan to add an if statement for the final route, to send information to the trains to "GTFO"
y5nw: try it yourself
independent56: hmm thx!
independent56: How do i send a command to a train occupying a route? Does it involve grabbing the ID and using that to send the command?
y5nw: atc_send(command) to the train on the track or atc_send_to_train(id, command) to any train
independent56: But that only works if i have the ID of the train on the route. which i do not, as is the nature of railyards.
y5nw: then you should find some way to get it or store it somewhere
independent56: Maybe  the train reverses, stops short of the signal, and if required, the signal will set a route for the train, and then the train leaves. to free the railyard up.
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=proposals:re_railyard My production version code runs, but wont set any route for the train.
independent56: ok it does set the route... what???
* y5nw: facepalms
y5nw: independent56: you might want to read this: https://www.lua.org/pil/4.3.4.html
independent56: I know i should avoid repition. but i'm gonna keep it that way.
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/KKnbhRv Why will my route set despite ther ebing a train in the section and the TCB obviously saying there is a train?
y5nw: Is your route programmed correctly? It should extend beyond the TCB at the signals
independent56: What do you mean? the thing i did was "finish route at end of next section" on the forks. What should i have done?
y5nw: I mean the route should extend to the end of the track
y5nw: Also check if the section is occupied
independent56: How do i extend until the end of the track? do i do "finish route at end of next section" like i did?
y5nw: Yes
independent56: well... i did do that and it wont check :-/
y5nw: check if the section is occupied (and whether that is recognized by the interlocking system)
independent56: It is recognised.
y5nw: Then set the route. Does the section say it is reserved by the route?
independent56: Oh wait... it does! Is this a roundbaout way of saying "section x is occupied"?
y5nw: Depends
y5nw: independent56: if a route it set then the TCB formspec looks a bit like this: https://imgur.com/a/uiAXCwl
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/XZGnjF0
independent56: that's strange
y5nw: Yeah, you need to check your route setup
y5nw: Click the route and then "Show"
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/yTMyGq4 Here - there is the route information.
y5nw: That does not look weird to me
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/AxvHPdY
independent56: I never know that button existed, it is now so obvious!
y5nw: Eh, are you sure that's the right TCB? The one with the "ROUTE" leads to a track that apparently doesn't have a train on it
independent56: Yes, that was the "obvious" i am talking about.
y5nw: One moment
y5nw: Look at the part I marked with the red rectangle: https://imgur.com/a/oLliYGK
y5nw: There is no train in the section beyond that "ROUTE" marker
independent56: I know. it is obvious where i went wrong. i knew where i went wrong, the error is resolved, and now trains run perfectly in my railyard
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/XrQ3JDy But my trains wont run out of my railyard. I have digimese and digilines... but it wont work and send a message.
y5nw: I don't think LuaATC tracks connect downward
independent56: which is why there are slight little wires next to them (look closely)
y5nw: oh
y5nw: I wonder why you need the "W" there
independent56: In case the train is moving
y5nw: I+B0WR;SM
y5nw: or "BB" instead of B0 if you don't mind that
independent56: ok... will that fix the issue with diglines?
y5nw: That's also a matter. Maybe use digiline_send to check if there is a signal?
independent56: Ok...
independent56: nope, using luacontrollers wont work.
y5nw: I don't remember mentioning luacontrollers at all
independent56: Then what with?
y5nw: Add a digiline_send call to your LuaATC code that sends a random message e.g. to a LCD (i.e. as a feedback for the particular event)
y5nw: Basically similar to debugging with printf()
y5nw: If you get the response from the LuaATC track then the particular event is received
independent56: Ok, so it works if i use digilines and not digimese
Sokomine: does anyone have experience with write/read json in mt? empty tables do not seem to be handled correctly
SFENCE: Hi. Is it possible, that client ignore pitch and roll rotation of parent object (via set_attach), when calculate player camera location?
Krock: it's always ignored
Krock: use set_look_dir or whatever to rotate the camera it into the direction of your object
Warr1024: It sounds like you won't be able to stop the camera from being manually rotated, and you can't tween smooth camera motion over a real-world network connection...
SFENCE: Krock My problem is, that camera go out of object, when object is rotated (pitch or roll). Only yaw rotation works well. So, I cannot fix it by set_look_vertical/horizontal function.
SFENCE: Krock So, camera look direction is not a problem, but camera position looks to be a problem.
appguru: Try set_eye_offset
independent56: 100 questions. an entire half-weeked. 1 slightly annoyed ywang. 6 hours. 10 youtube videos. and all for one simple little trackyard.
SFENCE: MTDiscord I have tryed it. But it looks like it add some offset vector which is rotated by camera look dir, and added to camera position. So with set_eye_offset it looks like camera is rotation over position which is out of object, player is attached to (when this object is rotated by 90 degrees in pitch for example.)
independent56: Advtrains needs Hopper Wagons.
independent56: I might as well teach myself blender and make them myself
Jonathon: or use blockbench+blender
independent56: So.. i use blockbench for what? then blender for what?
independent56: I am considering doing a "cp -r advtrains highspeed", then using that to make a fork with new track, and faster trains. and the nodenames will differ to make compatifbility with previous advtrains.
independent56: Then my server iwll have a niche
Sokomine: the advtrains are very nice
specing: could make a maglev mod :p
specing: or hyperloop
independent56: yeah... nah. i was thinking high speed in terms of concrete sleepers, broader gauge, and a set of wide, high-speed trains.
independent56: You know what might irritate future me? my blantant misuse of worldedit, straight tracks, and my wiki misuse.
independent56: i mean, past me completely misued the wiki adn i ahve to clean up after him
independent56: especially the lowercase
specing: make a curved track WE, then :P
specing: or build it by hand
specing: you could have a "wasnt built by WE" niche
independent56: XD
independent56: HSF (high speed forlk) is far better
specing: HLF (high lag fork)
independent56: XD
independent56: sprinkle in some fork bombs and fork bomb killer defusers...
independent56: What group does stone, stone bricks, and other hard objects go into? i need to create plans with required ballast.
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=proposals:hsf
independent56: there is my idea!
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04hecktest -> 03minetest/minetest: Add .editorconfig (#11412) 13e9bc59e https://git.io/JcgDY (152021-07-03T21:05:15Z)
independent56: After looking at the source... wow, that's a lot of files
independent56: How do i get my contributions into advtrains (like if a i amde a 5 long slope)
independent56: What would i do? there seems to be no pull ability in the offical git.
erlehmann: i have made a minetest flyer! https://mister-muffin.de/p/GVQz.png
Warr1024: Ha, nodecore represent
Warr1024: Can't read that error message tho
erlehmann: well i just wanted some trace
erlehmann: and only had screenshotted a nodecore one
erlehmann: the mineclone2 picture is clamity spawn btw, some time ago
erlehmann: the moon thing is mesecraft
GreenXenith: Wait, you mean to tell me thats not Minecraft?
Warr1024: That one with the nutella and tobasco...
erlehmann: Warr1024 is a crima against humanity
GreenXenith: nutello*
erlehmann: Warr1024 joking, it is the sandwich mod
Warr1024: You can tell it's Minetest because there's a ton of food
GreenXenith: actually it might be nutella but the image is so compressed I think the tail gets lost
Warr1024: Somebody should feed the MT modders
GreenXenith: Also im serious, that is definitely not Mineclone2
GreenXenith: Definitely there for irony
GreenXenith: wait no theres a screwdriver
Warr1024: if it's not mineclone2 then they did a pretty good job overlaying the MT debugging info on it.
GreenXenith: you right
GreenXenith: at that level of image compression it just looks like minecraft to me
Jonathon: that image looks like celeron55's minetest video
Jordach: it's a right dead ringer for MC until you zoom in and see MT debug data
erlehmann: GreenXenith i think clamity is using some minecraft textures maybe
GreenXenith: and the screwdriver
duds: Is there a Mineclone channel on here?
erlehmann: duds yes but you will not have much fun there: #mineclone2
duds: I see
duds: why not??
Jonathon: erlehmann: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD1TVZ47xZY
erlehmann: duds well, if you want approx the features of mineclone2 0.71 minus crashes & lag, check out #minelonia – but if you want mineclone2 chat, the devs have supercomputers and lurk on discord i think?
erlehmann: duds like the devs are never in the #mineclone2 channel
erlehmann: i meant #mineclonia btw
Jordach: the devs don't have supercomputers
Jordach: otherwise they'd be playing the real thing
duds: ahhh ok ok
erlehmann: duds if you have a bug report, http://git.minetest.land/Mineclone2/Mineclone2/issues
Jordach: like seriously MC is the cost of three hours at a part time job
erlehmann: wdym
GreenXenith: In California its the cost of 2 hours :]
erlehmann: oh
erlehmann: i get it
duds: yea but is it foss?? didn't think so
Jordach: yes hello your ISP wants a word about that
Jordach: it's all non-free to use the internet beyond LAN
GreenXenith: tru.dat
erlehmann: duds once sales start dying andit is worthless notch will release source code he said so! would notch ever lie to us? i think he also mentioned a lua api LOL
duds: lmao
Jordach: the Lua API is false
erlehmann: no, the Lua API is nil
Jordach: notch also didn't bet on it become crazy popular
Jonathon: google uields https://notch.tumblr.com/post/140146373/lua-or-java-api/amp
GreenXenith: really hoping that sentence is entirely irony
Jonathon: *yields
GreenXenith: idk, uields seems like a perfectly valid spelling
erlehmann: Advantages of Java:
erlehmann: * Very powerful, can do ANYTHING.
erlehmann: WOW
erlehmann: i should look into this java
Jordach: Reflection and ASM\
Jordach: people underestimate what can be done with ASM and Reflection
GreenXenith: wOW iTs TurINg COmpLeTe
erlehmann: > The API would then let you send messages, teleport players, set blocks and probably load and save levels.
erlehmann: sounds like a cheat client
GreenXenith: Sounds like a game engine...
Jordach: i mean that just sounds like already existing minetest features
duds: sounds like cope
Jordach: those whomst shout cope are coping themselves that they don't value themselves enough to work any form of paid work
duds: damn...
Jordach: either that or they lack the self esteem to even attempt fixing a problem
Jordach: been there done that
erlehmann: jordach
erlehmann: how is your quake imitation going on
Jordach: pain
Jordach: i've scrapped using minetest's built in networking
erlehmann: uh oh?
Jordach: and instead doing some async magic
Jordach: with LuaSockets
Jordach: and directly interface the MT API with that instead
Jordach: every modern game since like 2007 has had a world thread and a script thread for managing client side scripting
Jordach: it means i can fully utilise the MT API to keep updates at 30hz (send/receive)
Jordach: and unlock the speed at which the API steps at
Jordach: while pushing near zero network load since visual information and CAO is no longer required to be sent
Jordach: that and i'd have to modify the source to change a few things to make it easier for the win/linux users
Jordach: like removing the entire multiplayer framework as that's not really needed anymore
Jordach: in theory the main menu instead becomes a psuedo launcher in that you have the settings panel and the launch game option, which then offers a bunch of servers
DUMdum: Test
sfan5: succeeded
DUMdum: ok hi
independent56: Meta question - How large is a large network? How much track? https://wiki.linux-forks.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Getting_Started&curid=1928&diff=24188&oldid=23645
independent56: Maybe i have a large network
independent56: What i really want is a nice, respectful player. a player much like me, but without being an admin, just a moderator.
independent56: Not just some guests who look around, wait minutes for the mapblocks to load, and say "bye".
independent56: "or even just **player left the game"
Warr1024: Offer a good and engaging game experience, list your server publicly and do a little advertising, and then basically just wait.  About 99% of the people who check out my server and any of the small servers I see chat for are fly-by.  It takes a while to get quality players.
independent56: Hmm.. i am on player ~10. 89 more to go!
Warr1024: Network effects are a big thing too.  People play on servers that have other players.  Get some friends to help and hang out and build stuff with you and you might draw in people during that time.  Just be sure to be ready with a good first impression :-)
independent56: Is a good impresson doing what you are doing and gently chatting, or is it supervising the player from 10 nodes away? Because superivisng is all my paranoid mind does.
Warr1024: A good impression is having a game for the player to play.  Don't just crowd them, give them a chance to try stuff out, but have obvious stuff to do, and also show that the server has been developed.
independent56: Like... an obvious place to build?
Warr1024: I think an organic settlement (i.e. not just a contrived and protected spawn) is helpful to suggest to a player that there's already stuff going on, and to establish a pattern of what kinds of things they can do
independent56: Volcano2 might be great, it's surrounded by rainforest and has good track connection: http://2.26.38.198:8080/#!/map/0/10/-1682/-2048
Warr1024: Players aren't necessarily looking for a blank plot to just build whatever, they can do that in SP.  You want players who are going to be part of your community, so establish a community for them that they can feel a part of.
independent56: It's a bit hard to do when i am the only member.
Warr1024: Yeah, it REALLY helps to get a few friends to help out.
independent56: Oh... so they are the capital which begins the server. I wish i had people to help me.
independent56: That also explains why TA had three admins - a trinity to be gods of the server
Warr1024: I started out by making a game, published it, advertised it, got a few people intrigued by the idea.  That made it a bit easier to have people I know might be interested when I started up a semi-private test server.  We added more people by invitations, and eventually broadened the scope until it went public.  Sort of like an IPO.
Warr1024: Trying to do this the other way around, i.e. open up a public server first, you have to go through those rougher periods while paying for hosting basically :-)
Warr1024: A big selling point for the whole thing was that I was creating a playing experience that was obviously unique.  It can be a harder sell if the niche for your server is less obvious, like just a different moderation style or something.
independent56: I don't pay for hosting and use my home network. and the latency is huge.
Warr1024: Cheap hosting is to your advantage because you aren't bleeding cash and can patiently build your community at your own pace, but not having proper-hosting-class service can be a challenge.
Warr1024: If your latency is terrible then there are certain gameplay aspects like PvP and mob combat that suffer particularly and you have to consider whether it's even really worth having those if it's bad enough.
independent56: Yeah, i need a motto a bit like "Like LF but without the bamboo and poor moderation". Which communicates my niche - Trains.
Warr1024: Moderation is really hard to advertise as a feature also because (1) it's a very personal thing, moderation isn't so much objectively "good" or "bad" as there are simply factions and tribes, and (2) people are going to be skeptical anyway, and you'll probably eventually have people spreading both good and bad rumors about you anyway.
independent56: I guess i will just wait around whilst i develop a niche. Thanks for helping.
erlehmann: independent56 try playing on other servers if you want community?
independent56: I want community on my server. It just seems shabby to go onto other servers and say "look, i like the fact you're here and are a perfect member of the community. please come to my server instead."
independent56: "I just want you to make my server better"
erlehmann: independent56 why do you want ppl on *your* server in the first place
independent56: Thats' the point of multiplayer servers
specing: I really wish for a wacky map server
erlehmann: independent56 i mean what is it that other servers lack?
erlehmann: independent56 ok why should I play on your server instead of say on clamity or inside the box or meseclams or your-land.de
erlehmann: i don't know
erlehmann: wacky?
erlehmann: specing clamity not wacky enough for you?
specing: you know, oceans deeper than 50 nodes, mountains higher than 250 nodes
specing: erlehmann: a bit too wacky, at least the part with floating sponges
erlehmann: the sponge sky is only at spawn anyway
independent56: erlehmann, They deny me the right to stay, keeping me only as tenants, who can evict me anytime.
erlehmann: and it is easily possible to flood spawn regardless
erlehmann: specing "i wan't wacky" "here" "oh no that is WAY TOO CURSED"
independent56: erlehmann Also, People will join my server because it needs moderators, and you could be a moderator of a server someone else pays for.
specing: independent56: imagine getting banned from clamity
erlehmann: specing try meseclams then
erlehmann: specing i think the only person that was banned used a coordinate exploit and blew up almost every base on the server except one?
erlehmann: i doubt independent56 would be able to do that tbh
erlehmann: like, on a technical level
specing: independent56: but if you have moderators, that means you are prepared to evict people
erlehmann: what specing says
specing: erlehmann: oh, so it is possible lol
erlehmann: specing no the known coord exploits are fixed of course
erlehmann: specing well i am not sure maybe that person actually trolled
erlehmann: i only heard rumors that darkmemer was banned
erlehmann: maybe it is not true
erlehmann: i mean jordan4ibanez was not banned when i told him about the crashmachine and sent him a patch to fix it and he repeatedly pressed the crash button to crash the server and bragged about it on youtube
independent56: erlehmann I do not like being part of a community who hates me and evicts me. I am selfish in this argument.
erlehmann: and that's pretty toxic
specing: I also found a pretty bad bug in 5.3.0 that allowed me to take other people's armors
erlehmann: specing safe to say you are not the only person who has found it lol
erlehmann: there are worse bugs in 5.3.0 ;)
specing: erlehmann: I can imagine yeah
erlehmann: independent56 i doubt that clamity would evict you.
erlehmann: specing have you tried meseclams? mesecraft is a pretty cool game
erlehmann: you can build portals to moon and mars
specing: erlehmann: I don't think so
independent56: erlehmann, I cannot independently configure, enable mods, and use worldedit on that server. only in 56i-server can i actually be admin
erlehmann: specing try it. it is entirely unlike minecraft. like, you have a nethor, but you can find cyberdemons there.
erlehmann: i think
specing: exploring servers is tedius work, I have to figure out a new memorable password only to learn that the rules are incompatible with me
erlehmann: independent56 singleplayer it is then.
specing: and I usually only explore a server if there's 5+ players in it
independent56: Yeah, but i want people to play with me
independent56: My choice was because i wanted to be admin, and build stuff for other players.
erlehmann: specing use "pwgen 10" or so and a password generator. i recommend pass, but there are others: https://www.passwordstore.org/
erlehmann: <independent56> My choice was because i wanted to be admin, and build stuff for other players.
erlehmann: independent56 why would anyone ELSE want YOU to be admin?
independent56: exactly
independent56: i had to make my own server
erlehmann: independent56 singleplayer is it then
erlehmann: singleplayer on your server
independent56: i want to play with other players
erlehmann: independent56 there is only one way forward, make everyone on your server admin
independent56: XD
erlehmann: only that way you achieve true anarchy
erlehmann: i mean it
specing: haha if I had a server I probably wouldnt want independent56 as an admin :P
erlehmann: yeah me true
erlehmann: too
erlehmann: sry
independent56: Yeah, i would grant myself worldedit and crash the server building a huge hourse
independent56: or "/shutdown"
specing: I'm pretty sure I'd either have no worldedit
erlehmann: independent56 if there was another copy of you named independent57 why would that person join your server?
specing: or I'd fix it so it's usable by players without crashing the server
erlehmann: if that person could not be admin
specing: and then everyone would have it
erlehmann: independent56 if you want to build arbitrary stuff join a creative server
independent56: erlehmann Because we have to share everything, so we might as well share the server
Warr1024: independent, if you can't get along with the operators of any other servers what makes you think that you'll get along with players on your server?
Warr1024: You being in a position of power over them instead of the other way around isn't necessarily going to fix fundamental disagreements
Warr1024: Whether they kick you off their server or you kick them off yours, it doesn't change the fact that you won't be playing together anymore.
independent56: Hmm...
Warr1024: Getting along with other people is hard and annoying and very often it sucks, but I guess we have to do it to have the things we want, because the things we want always include other people in some capacity :-|
IhrFussel: You can encourage people to visit your server if it offers unique stuff...custom features no other server can just download from CDB or the forum
erlehmann: what Warr1024 says
erlehmann: it takes a lot to not get along with any admin
erlehmann: i mean
erlehmann: recently on clamity clamork came and spawned a bunch of vindicators and vexes
erlehmann: those killed another player, a good friend of mine
erlehmann: she had a sword named “divine intervention”
erlehmann: i picked it up and
erlehmann: clamork was killed by me using divine intervention
erlehmann: i did not get banned for that
erlehmann: i mean he had it coming :D
IhrFussel: That's only true if the admin/staff is able to behave neutrally on their server, but on my servers staff expresses bias/agendas and is not always fair to all players
specing: Why would you get banned for killing on an anarchy server?
erlehmann: independent56 would you ban me for killing an admin or mod just because i feel like it?
independent56: Wow.... But some admins are just short-tempered, like gpcf.
IhrFussel: many servers*
independent56: erlehmann, yes... the kill command needs a priv i need to trust you with
erlehmann: specing i think most servers might ban users if they start killing admins
specing: erlehmann: most servers have a be nice / no PvP without conset
specing: consent*
erlehmann: specing if you want to make sure you get admins or mods during flybys they make of users, just enable killaura
specing: this applies to players and admins alike
erlehmann: that way they can not sneak up on you
erlehmann: without getting killed
specing: I think that disagree with my view of an admin should be
erlehmann: independent56 i do not mean using kill command
specing: And admin should be someone to enforce the rules and not a higher class of players
specing: *An admin should be someone to enforce the rules and not a higher class of players
erlehmann: specing well on clamity they sometimes just look what ppl build
erlehmann: they don't really interfere
independent56: PVP is disabled, so it is a hack. erlehmann
erlehmann: in this case clamork was there for debugging a bunch of nodes
erlehmann: independent56 there are still ways to kill players with pvp disabled believe me
specing: That's fine, but they shouldn't use admin powers for that
erlehmann: ind you won't ever see it coming
IhrFussel: If staff actually bans you just for trying to kill staff members then that server should be avoided at all costs...this is exactly what I just said...staff in my eyes is NOT any better than regular players, they just have more responsibilities
erlehmann: specing well usually clamork just spams chickens and leaves lol
specing: i.e. no bypassing locked doors, no flying over obtacles (unless rules permit players flying)
independent56: erlehmann, Oh yeah, deathtraps and lava. It all depends on the rules. if they say "no death", it's a ban.
erlehmann: IhrFussel well i was on one server and another player told me flying is not allowed. and i was like "i read the somewhat long rules and there is nothing in the rules about it not being allowed and besides, you are flying too" and then that player was like "yeah but i have PRIVILEGES", so i avoided that server, bc obv it was another higher class of player :/
erlehmann: independent56 if you think that ppl should be banned for building death traps, why should ANYONE play on your server?
independent56: erlehmann, LF does that, and they have a loyal playerbase. one i was part of.
erlehmann: i once built a death trap near clamity spawn, a cute house with a lot of tnt under it. open the trapped chest, all doors close and the house explodes. i put a sign in front of it "do not steal my diamonds".
erlehmann: so of course someone managed to set it off
erlehmann: and then rebuilt it, tnt and all lol
erlehmann: and later someone else set it off
erlehmann: it was just too funny :D
erlehmann: ok well
erlehmann: it wasn't really a lot of tnt
Warr1024: I wasn't trying to say that pissing off an admin is necessarily a high bar to cross, but in the event that the admins really ARE that arbitrary, they aren't likely to have built a community you'd miss being a part of anyway.
erlehmann: just enough to blow up the house
erlehmann: yeah what Warr1024 says
erlehmann: independent56 for what reasons do you not get along with other admins?
erlehmann: btw clamork is generally nice, but spamming vexes and vindicators is an asshole move
IhrFussel: erlehmann, If that player was no staff member then I wouldn't care much what they have to tell me...if the rules don't mention a certain thing and also no staff member talks to me about it then I see no rule violated
specing: LF doesen't seem to have any heavy rules
independent56: I just dont... Moderators generally end up against me... like oneplayer (username) who spoiled TA for me.
specing: also, LF is the only non-anarchy server with totally unrestricted CSM restrictions
specing: that I found
erlehmann: IhrFussel it was a staff member but "it does not violate any of your rules" was apparently not enough
IhrFussel: I'm completely against "implied rules" btw...I mean rules that are not written anywhere but still apply
erlehmann: IhrFussel i was just threatened with ban for doing the same that player did, flying
Warr1024: If you find that you have problems with a lot of people then you should probably consider the common factor between those failed relationships, at least in part because that factor will be with you in your other ventures like trying to start your own server.
erlehmann: <specing> also, LF is the only non-anarchy server with totally unrestricted CSM restrictions
erlehmann: specing, what do you mean CSM restrictions? they have anticheat turned off?
specing: erlehmann: yeah, the CSM flags are all turned off
specing: it's not anticheat
erlehmann: <Warr1024> If you find that you have problems with a lot of people then you should probably consider the common factor between those failed relationships,
erlehmann: Warr1024 speaks wise words
erlehmann: specing just use waspsaliva and ignore what the server says
IhrFussel: The most vague rule I ever saw on a server was "use common sense" this rule can mean anything really, it doesn't help me too much as player who wants to know what exactly is allowed and what's not
Warr1024: As far as unwritten rules go, every server has some.  Stuff like having "don't be an ass in chat" without specifying exactly what "ass" means here, assuming everyone should already know.  In those cases, the proper way to handle the ambiguity is probably to warn first, so that player have a chance to get it right at least once before getting slapped with a ban.
specing: erlehmann: CSMRestrictionFlags
erlehmann: in my opinion, every case in which cheating makes the game less fun for other players, you are mostly cheating yourself out of fun
erlehmann: like
specing: erlehmann: I have my own client that partially ignores it
erlehmann: why would anyone cheat on "inside the box" or CTF
erlehmann: the fun of it is to solve the challenge yourself
specing: erlehmann: I said that I will rebase on ws/dfc one day, but that day is not today
Krock: because they're low-brainers who need assistance to win
erlehmann: specing post a link here please
Krock: that's why
erlehmann: Krock yeah but consider that on inside the box there are not even other players for the puzzle
erlehmann: Krock so you literally can only cheat yourself
specing: erlehmann: not here
Krock: it's totally pointless yeah
erlehmann: specing why
Warr1024: My policy on how I handle cheat clients on my server is that I join in with other players who are online at the time in collectively laughing at them until they die of embarrassment.
specing: erlehmann: discord
erlehmann: specing what is the problem with discord?
erlehmann: specing you can not post links on irc because of discord?
specing: I don't like it, + https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord  + https://dev.to/daksh777/why-i-quit-using-discord-34b + https://sneak.berlin/20200220/discord-is-not-an-acceptable-choice-for-free-software-projects/
erlehmann: oh right
erlehmann: discord sucks
Warr1024: Don't confuse using discord with trusting it.
Warr1024: I mean, we use GitHub but we don't really trust it either.
erlehmann: you trust a person or a thing if they can undermine your security model
erlehmann: evidently
specing: I'm boycotting GitHub as well
erlehmann: github once erroneously hellbanned me
erlehmann: i stopped using it
specing: it's why I started CSMing, couldn't fix anything serverside as it was all on GitHub
Warr1024: Heh, usually I hear security models defined in terms of trust rather than the other way around, but that works.
erlehmann: i mean wtf
specing: now I have 6000 LoC in CSMs
erlehmann: specing ever consider contributing to waspsaliva?
erlehmann: cora nice
specing: erlehmann: I did, and I will. Just need to rebase
specing: yes, cora nice
specing: Well, she might not like the license :P
erlehmann: what is it
specing: I have affero GPL tentacles ;P
erlehmann: well talk to her about it
specing: yeah, it'll come eventually. Need to rebase first
erlehmann: i do not use waspsaliva much, i mostly usey fly and noclip for building and debugging stuff on other ppls servers and you can get that via priv override easily
specing: waspsaliva is also interesting as its not on GitHub
erlehmann: but it has an impressive amount of features
erlehmann: specing did you see the heart-shaped nether portals on clamity? they are almost all placed by cora using a CSM :)
erlehmann: and the best thing
erlehmann: they take about the same amount of obsidian as the original nether prtal
specing: nah, hadnt
specing: I'm also experimenting with CSM worldediting
specing: but got sidetracked with writing a CSM replacement for pipeworks
erlehmann: what
erlehmann: specing play more on clamity, it needs more players like you
erlehmann: ppl who make their own cheat clients also often help fix cheats
specing: I wouldn't call my client a cheat client
specing: It's more an "enhanced player experience" client
specing: even though there's substantial overlap
erlehmann: specing "cheat client" is shorthand for "non-vanilla"
erlehmann: i.e. every dev version is technically a cheat client
specing: if you ask the server owners, perhaps
Warr1024: I mean, the official client is a "cheat client" too :-)
Warr1024: It took like 2 years to get a PR merged just to make it possible to make certain cheats off by default :-/
erlehmann: Warr1024 which ones?
erlehmann: i mean as long as you can dupe using vanilla client it probably is lol
erlehmann: and that's possible right now
Warr1024: Like the developer tools.
erlehmann: (the joke is that duping happens on the server)
Warr1024: Minecraft has that problem too in vanilla, but at least mod for MC have generally had the ability to distinguish between players and developers.
Warr1024: I'm actually not all that familiar with duping in MT.
Warr1024: Is it caused by bugs in the game code, or are there engine problems that games would have to guard against?
Warr1024: I've had duping bugs in my own game but they've always been my own fault, not the engine's, so far.
erlehmann: Warr1024 every dupe bug is either an engine problem with not keeping track of items correctly or bugs in lua mods, mostly in nodes that handle inventories
erlehmann: for example, i think there was a dupe in moreblocks relating to wool
erlehmann: like don't count on me understanding it, i just inferred it from the commits
erlehmann: but i think microblocks were in the wool group
erlehmann: so you could make colored wool with them
erlehmann: and then cut it up again maybe to get more microblocks?
erlehmann: something like that
erlehmann: i discovered a similar bug for wood
erlehmann: if wood microblocks are still in the wood group, you can make 8 times the amount of charcoal ^^
erlehmann: just by cutting them up
erlehmann: oven does not care
erlehmann: Warr1024 there is at least one engine bug in minetest that allows duping stuff but i am not telling bc i have not figured out how to fix it.
erlehmann: and also if you do it, admin will notice
erlehmann: so it is not particularly useful
Jonathon: Fuel abuse is the oldest trick in minetest games
erlehmann: to cheat, i mean
erlehmann: Jonathon please tell me about more historical bugs
Jonathon: Heck, digtron even promotes it
erlehmann: i love hearing that stuff
erlehmann: what does digtron do?
Jonathon: It literrally tells you to use coal blocks as you will get more fuel than using them individually
Warr1024: I'm more interested in preventing or guarding against bugs than I am in exploiting them.  I pretty much don't play on other servers, like 100% of my MT time is working on my game.
erlehmann: but that is a mechanic actually
erlehmann: Jonathon mineclone2/mineclonia also has that. coal block crafted from 9 coal is as good as 10 coal.
erlehmann: Warr1024 i like that nodecore is so weird, but i never got into the whole explore the mechanics thing.
Jonathon: Mineclone2 is just mtg under the hood that has been tweaked over time
Jonathon: So its not suprising
specing: erlehmann | if wood microblocks are still in the wood group, you can make 8 times the amount of charcoal ^^
specing: nice, but fairly useless as far as cheating goes
specing: wood is pretty cheap
Jonathon: Mineclone2: mtg minecraft style and runs worse
erlehmann: Jonathon have you tried mesecraft?
erlehmann: it pretty neat
erlehmann: but a bit buggy
erlehmann: also fuck those giant hornets
erlehmann: but like
erlehmann: mesecraft has really neat details
Jonathon: No, but ive seen it, just a mtg plus mods
erlehmann: well it is the interaction that makes it
erlehmann: it is a really good selection of mods
Jonathon: Does it have good glue?
erlehmann: to make sticky pistons you mean?
erlehmann: it just has technic
erlehmann: on the meseclams server someone discovered that technic means nuclear meltdowns are possible
Jonathon: No, is the mod soup glued together well?
erlehmann: there is a spire of chernobylite at spawn now
Warr1024: Pretty much the only dupe bugs I've run into were either a simple bug in the code, or a crash bug where I tried to move something, and it was added to the destination but crashed before it could be removed from the source.
erlehmann: bc someone (*cough* clamork i think) built some tower and did a core meltdown on top of it
Warr1024: Crashes mid-move always end up causing inconsistencies either way, and item deletion is just as bad as duplication for me.
erlehmann: Warr1024 maybe learn how to make atomic transactions
Benrob0329: I would kind of like to see a game which pulls elements from classic Minetest (like Mese, Dungeon Masters, and Orrkies [however you spell it])..maybe I'll try to work that into a future game idea
Benrob0329: and rats, can't forget the rats
Warr1024: Heh, if MT was ACID internally then that would simplify things so much.
Warr1024: Hell, it's even built on top of ACID databases like sqlite and pgsql, but then everything is cached in memory and written back async...
Warr1024: The more I work on a game without mobs the more I like it.
Warr1024: Turns out the best monsters are nodes.
Benrob0329: maybe the true monsters were the friends we made along the way
Warr1024: That works too.  Most disasters the players in NodeCore encounter are self-created.
Warr1024: Sadly my suggestion for a "Player vs Self" tag in CDB was rejected.
Warr1024: It's a game with strong Player vs. Player elements, just no Player vs. Other Player ones.
independent56: Is there like some etiquete on how many repies to a forum post i can make with nobody else replying?
independent56: I'm sure 10 replies is regarded as crappy behaviour
Warr1024: I think normally you just balance your willingness to talk into an empty room against your own sense of embarrassment?
Warr1024: That's my system anyway.  A good heuristic is that I like to stop before I scroll the last non-me messages off the top of a screen so I feel like I'm still having a conversation.
independent56: haha
independent56: Hello. I am getting £150 for my birthday, because i will be 15. And my grandmother is slightly crazy. I am jus wondering whether to spend it on homelab equipment, Or a VPS for a year.
independent56: I like control, but i also like network speed and power
Krock: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9c/0f/26/9c0f2685ea6eebb0babc98450600d68a.jpg
independent56: This is a genuine question, asking for the opinion of people with more experience then me.
sfan5: you'll value permanent things more than temporary ones
sfan5: is my take
independent56: aye, thanks
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/lOdlojr This is the result of my family throwing obsolete/unwanted tech at me.
Krock: for hobbyist tasks, use hobbyist hardware
Krock: for professional work, use professional hardware or hobbyist when time's short
Krock: put the laptops to some use I guess, but make sure they're properly secured to not open up access from outside to your network
independent56: Ah yes... if only they didn't have fatal flaws. one has a locked bios i have been unable to hack into, another has a broken bios, on ehas a broken screen, the red one can't use wifi, the thicc one can't do shit, one can't even use ehternet
specing: sell them
specing: and buy proper stuff
independent56: cool idea!
independent56: But how should i sell them? "regular"? "in need of maintanace"? "shit, try finding spare parts"?
independent56: and how much would one cost at maximum? £50?
specing: idk about what you have because imgur's cert expired 2 months ago
specing: so I just assume you got cool new gadgets
specing: where 'cool' means cool for the masses and utterly useless otherwise
independent56: https://i.imgur.com/fJcKXbL.jpeg
independent56: try this
sfan5: imgur's cert did not expire 2 months ago, I'd be concerned about what your ISP is doing to your connection
Warr1024: "you'll value permanent things more than temporary ones" ... sounds like a vote for "neither" :-)
Warr1024: Also, is that pringles can a wifi antenna reflector or just a literal pringles can?
independent56: i mean, i can probably get an odd £150 from the stack, maybe £200 if i'm lucky. That can be spent on dedicated server hardware... my god i'm going to have to use a spreadsheet (not that i'm scared or anything, just that i like spreadsheets and get to use them)!
independent56: Just a pringles can. i love pringles. it's just that mum refrains from buying them, and they are getting expensive. beck in december they were £1.5. now they're £3.5
specing: sfan5: yeah, something fishy probably
specing: sfan5: the cert expired 1year 2mo ago
Warr1024: Dayum.  I get the store-bought knock-off pringles, they're like $1 a can
specing: and was a selfsigned one
independent56: i dont like the knockoffs, something about "brand quality"
Warr1024: specing: I was wondering why you seemed so paranoid earlier, talking about how you didn't trust discord or github ... now you don't seem paranoid enough.
specing: How so? Ofc I didnt accept the cert
Warr1024: no I mean just in general
specing: And I'm not paranoid
specing: And I didn't say that I don't trust them
Warr1024: haha, I mean, that's what I'm saying :-D
specing: I said that I don't like it, and that I don't use it
* specing: scrolls up to verify
Warr1024: Yeah, I don't remember the exact wording either.
Warr1024: Anyway, TLS interception is super shady for an ISP or something to be doing to you
specing: exactly that is what I said
specing: don't use -> boycott
specing: you probably got confused as I linked to other people's blogs
Warr1024: coulbe
specing: I've never used Discord, so I don't have *all* the ammo to argue against using it
specing: must be my unique ability to recognise bad services from the start
Warr1024: The only reason I use it is because of other people who use it.  I don't think there's any real compelling reason to prefer the technology itself, and the whole proprietary thing is pretty gross.
Warr1024: I think maybe a couple years ago it had a usability edge over Matrix or IRC on mobile but now I think the other platforms have had a chance to catch up so there are options that make them mobile-friendly.
specing: Ok, so why are you still using Discord?
specing: At least for this channel
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/A7WmzO9
independent56: rate my spreadsheet B-)
Warr1024: Inertia
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/3tTXoMF
independent56: is £400 too high?
independent56: I'm just wondering... what use do the people have for old, broken computers?
erlehmann: independent56 wait if you are 14 year old it all makes sense, the not getting along and wanting power and all that
erlehmann: independent56 i suggest to play on clamity a bit to get along with people, seriously
erlehmann: independent56 i doubt you will regret it
independent56: Ok...
erlehmann: independent56 if it is too unstructured for you, try your-land.de
erlehmann: they have elections for mayor and land plots
erlehmann: and A LOT of cities
erlehmann: compared to other servers
erlehmann: and mean enemies named mimics
erlehmann: that can pretend to be any block
erlehmann: so at one point i saw a grass texture moving lol
erlehmann: and yep, it was a mimic
erlehmann: shortly afterwards it changed into a dirt-with-grass block
erlehmann: and the dirt attacked me
erlehmann: :D
independent56: hmm
independent56: i'll give it a try, (with stress on the full stop/period)
independent56: All this homelab stuff is complex server hardware stuff. researching is hard. should i give in an make a small rasberry array, with like 10 PIs?
independent56: (i mean, is it a good idea?)
Jonathon: pis are good for working with physical hardware. for software/computer projects, not so much
Jonathon: unless you want to build a cheap cluster or something
Hawk777: Seems like a good way to find yourself painted into a corner when you want to run one program that needs a lot of resources (RAM, CPU power, etc.) and you have enough resources in aggregate, but not on any one machine.
independent56: Yeah, a small array, to harness the power of multiple pis. Homelabbing with proper hardware seems to be a bit complex, with so many seperate components.
Hawk777: Well, but what if you want to run a program that needs just a bit more CPU than a Pi has? If you buy 10 Pis, you’re out of luck. If you took that money and bought one bigger computer, you could still run it.
Jonathon: to clarify, "unless you want to build a cheap cluster or something" im referring to having a test environment to learn cluster computing, not to actually use it for anything serious
Jonathon: mainly because there cheaper than buying old business machines, more power efficient, and more space efficient
independent56: oh
independent56: What if i cluster old desktops like some crappy homelab?
independent56: stack them on top of each other like jenga XD
specing: raspberry pis aren't good for working with physical hardware
specing: they lack the IO
specing: they should be viewed as consumer computers without a screen attached. Think as a phone/tablet motherboard
independent56: oh
independent56: aha yeag
independent56: why is this so cheap? Is it effectively a rasberry pi? https://www.ebay.com/itm/114874948838?hash=item1abf149ce6:g:MpsAAOSw4S1g3j~~
independent56: oh wait shipping is $50
specing: look into Olimex boards for proper embedded
specing: raspberri pis dont even have full schematics published last I checked
Jonathon: :thonking: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/schematics/README.md
specing: Jonathon you should have checked them before ":thonking:"
specing: They are only schematics for connectors
specing: no schematics for processor or memory
specing: and no boardviews
Warr1024: pis aren't really like an eval board for a microcontroller that you'd later get in cheaper solderable form for production use; they're basically a unit as they are
Warr1024: I like them for one-off stuff, and stuff that's closer to computer than microcontroller stuff, of course
specing: they are consumer hardware
Warr1024: They've got a few GPIOs for micrcontrollery sorts of things but from what I can tell they're not great, and I think they want you to buy accessories to do stuff like that
specing: consumer hardware doesen't have docs
specing: (unless they got leaked, like in the case of my thinkpad)
Warr1024: They've got enough specs that you get the pin-outs of the stuff they provide pins for, and physical dimensions so you can CAD up custom cases and such, but yeah, that's about all.
specing: Now compare that to Olimex boards, where you get the full schematics AND the actuall CAD files used to make these
specing: and the whole development history in a git repo
specing: and if you open olimex.com, you'll see the whole website is oriented towards engineers
specing: lots of text, few images
specing: unlike the rpi foundation one, which is 100% a consumer website
specing: no data, just videos and pictures
specing: Now, I hope my rant here helped prevent at least one person from getting scammed by the rpi foundation
specing: unless you wanted a consumer arm computer, in which case... welp
sfan5: independent56: (modern) Pentium CPUs are pretty weak compared to mid-range x86 stuff people usually have but it should beat an ARM board any day
independent56: hmm yeah. My main struggle now with finding homelab hardware is converting from freedom currency to british currency ($ --> £)
specing_: not a Cavium ThunderX ARM board, no
sfan5: check ebay.co.uk instead?
independent56: Oh god! yeah! XD
independent56: I forgot big companies localise with different TLDs. not like gb.ebay.com, or us.ebay.com
independent56: I have just realised how fun window shopping is with wish. but i would never buy from them. goodnight
independent56: yeah... i saw a sata cable for sale, got onto ebay, found one, and put it onto the spreadsheet.
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/BfAaPfJ Which looks a lot more like this now
Kelp: Hello. Can someone please help me? Minetest only gives me 49-50 fps but I have a 75 hz monitor.
Kelp: I'm using GNU/Linux.
independent56: This may be due to the way your processor is underpowered, or the FPS may be capped. It's fine.
Kelp: The max fps value is set to 75 in settings. I have tried vsync both on and off and neither of them give me over 50 fps.
Kelp: I have a ryzen 7 1700x and a gtx 1660
Kelp: It's not a specs issue
Warr1024: If you shrink the window size or look up into the sky, does it get better?
Kelp: No.
Kelp: It only gives me 49-50 fps
Kelp: No more, no less
Warr1024: Does turning down any visual settings / shaders help any?
Kelp: No. I have turned them off I think
Kelp: Turning them off doesn't help
Warr1024: Hmm, I don't know off hand, but it is an interesting problem.  Maybe some stray setting that's not obvious or easy to find, or maybe a driver or other system config issue...
rubenwardy: sounds similar to an issue where NVIDIA GPUs were forcing V-SYNC on, ignoring Minetest's requests for it to be off
rubenwardy: I know ryzen is AMD, but could be similar
Kelp: I have NVIDIA
rubenwardy: oh
rubenwardy: oh wait, cpu
rubenwardy: There's an env variable to fix it
Kelp: CPU is ryzen 7 1700x
Kelp: How do i do that?
Warr1024: Well, vsync should cap it at 75 or some multiple or something
Kelp: Yeah. But it caps it at 50
Warr1024: unless your monitor refresh rate is misdetected
rubenwardy: `vblank_mode=0 minetest`
Warr1024: any other games work okay?
Kelp: Yeah they all work okay
rubenwardy: vblank_mode=0     is the environment variable and value
Kelp: Minecraft and supertuxkart had no issues
Warr1024: ruben: is that vblank mode thing specific to MT, or to irrlicht, or is that a more general convention?
Kelp: How do I change environment variable?
rubenwardy: open a terminal, and run     vblank_mode=0 minetest
Kelp: Okay
rubenwardy: that will at least check to see if that is the cause
rubenwardy: Warr1024: it's not specific to MT
j1233: i know of somebody that had a similar problem and they fixed it by starting minetest with `vblank_mode=0 bin/minetest`, like ruben is suggesting
rubenwardy: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17196117/disable-vertical-sync-for-glxgears#17196118
rubenwardy: it's a general thing
Kelp: Lmao still 50 fps smh
Kelp: Wait no. Supertuxkart also is only 50 fps
Kelp: I've been playing 50 fps all this time without knowing
rubenwardy: Supertuxkart uses the same 3d rendering library that we do
rubenwardy: (Irrlicht)
Kelp: OwO
Kelp: I'm never buying nvidia again
Warr1024: hmm, now I wonder if I should add the vblank_mode thing to my ~/.bashrc and/or ~/.xsession...
Kelp: I can't stand this 50 fps lol
Warr1024: Maybe if you get a 120Hz monitor then you can get 75fps.
Warr1024: Or you just need to lower the fps of your eyeballs.
Warr1024: 50fps is not an exact "harmonic" of 75Hz either so you're probably noticing some jitter.
Kelp: When loading a minetest world i also  get this error...
Warr1024: If you've been playing STK at 50fps the whole time without noticing though then it sounds like maybe you CAN stand this?
Kelp: WARNING[Main]: Irrlicht: PNG warning: iCCP: CRC error
Kelp: But now that i've noticed it's only 50 fps now i can't stand it
Warr1024: oops, shouldn't have noticed then 😅
Kelp: Lol
sfan5: sounds like some misconfiguration tbh, never seen this on any of my nvidia linux systems
Warr1024: Re: the CRC error: some game/mod you're using has a PNG image that's corrupted or doesn't match a spec or something.  If you don't see anything wrong visually then you can probably ignore it, otherwise you can try to figure out which mod and then complain to the author.
Kelp: I am using a texture pack i'll try to disable it then
Kelp: Lol yeah it's the texture pack
Jonathon: Typically you can ignore them tho
Jonathon: However fixing it would be nice
independent56: is there a "sudo apt update" but for minetest mods? i dont want to rely on the gui to update my mods.
sfan5: a CLI for the contentdb client is on the TODO list
independent56: yay! what is the latest due date?
Krock: never
independent56: ok :-<
independent56: anyways, i have this worldedit region, and i want to do something like "//copy y -1 z 3", but it gives me an error. is there a way to copy in two directions
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/w2YV0yG
independent56: the region for reference
independent56: "//multi //copy y -1 //shift y -1 //move z 3" will work
rubenwardy: there are unofficial CLIs available
sfan5: independent56: //stack2 1 0 -1 3
independent56: wow, thanks! i forgot that command existed, keeping it only in the "skyscraper building" category.
independent56: rubenwardy, The name of one you reccomend?
rubenwardy: https://github.com/ronoaldo/minetools maybe
rubenwardy: not tried it
independent56: the command wouldn't move the region so i just did "//multi //stack2 1 0 -1 3 //shift down 1 //shift z 3" instead. works exactly how i would like!
independent56: ran out of disk space again
independent56: i think mineteest should have a way of going "oh wait, only 50 mb left, better say "check disk space", then fail.
specing: then your chat/log would be filled with "check disk space"
dzho: that's presumably what the "then fail" part would take care of
Warr1024: Every app can't be responsible for warning about low disk space.
dzho: admittedly, that is sort of an OS-level responsibility
independent56: I know... but minetest should really alert chat "ERROR [server main] Disk Space is at 50 MB! to preserve your OS, shutting down!"
independent56: Being a memory hog, i think that it's it's responsibility.
independent56: Well... 46 gb is now free
specing: independent56: you could make a mod that provides that warning
independent56: i could, but i can't. i have no experience in minetest modding
specing: time to get some, then
independent56: haha yeah
Hawk777: If you’re going to install and/or make a mod anyway, why not just install something that has nothing to do with Minetest and just pops up (if you’re running this on your desktop/laptop) or e-mails (if you’re running it on a server) a notification when disk space is low? There must be hundreds of those out there for every imaginable OS.
Noclip[m]: Minetest Wiki and Forum websites are very very in the last days. Are they getting ddos attacked again?
Jonathon: I havent noticed the forum being anymore terrible than usual
independent56: They load really slowly
Jonathon: Yes, its generally terrible, but still works
Noclip[m]: Mhh, maybe you're right and it's just slow.
Jonathon: This morning was fine for me, i could try now
Jonathon: Probably will 5xx to spite me
Jonathon: ...and yeah, 504 atm
Pexin: Kelp: using nouveau or official nvidia driver?
Pexin: I've noticed different fps cap between those
independent56: A player joined my server and via the logs, i found their IP and found that they were algerian. So they struggled with internet distance.
independent56: Only 44 M population, as compared to the UK's 68
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/KPkzXif
independent56: Why dosent any server i see do this - add proper documentation?
exe_virus: Sorry about the lack of players, there will be more don't you worry, minetest's community is growing nicely
Zhaolin Lau: can someone asks celeron55 for reactivating the minetest fb page?
Swift110-mobile: hello all
Swift110-mobile: good to hear that minetest is getting more users
Swift110-mobile: is anyone running a minetest server on a raspberry pi?
Jordach: >caring about faceberg
Benrob0329: There have been a few over the years
Benrob0329: Also yeah, let Facebook die
Zhaolin Lau: lul
exe_virus: Yeah don't support Facebook, sorry. It's essentially a net negative on societal productivity, happiness, and efficiency. Might as well be cigarettes or something
exe_virus: On that subject, don't support google making search worse over time. By far that is one of the saddest parts of Google's dominance is seeing how much of your search results are paid for, or are videos, or pictures, or top level sites like reddit or Facebook.
celeron55: fb page? never even seen one
celeron55: and happy for it
AntumDeluge: Is there a way to stop my server from doing this? Server: UncleDaddy moved too fast: V=132.2, H=0; resetting position
AntumDeluge: The code is in src/server/player_sao.cpp, but I don't see any setting to disable it.
AntumDeluge: If nothing else, I will just comment-out the code & use a custom build for my server.
sfan5: there is a setting to disable anticheat
IhrFussel: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/1805775f3d54043c3b1e75e47b9b85e3b12bab00/minetest.conf.example#L1408 but this also disables other anti cheat mechanics
AntumDeluge: I tried disable_anticheat once, but it didn't seem to make a difference. But I will try it again.
IhrFussel: Then you did something wrong... 'moved too fast' doesn't ever happen when anti cheat is off
IhrFussel: Did you actually set it to 'true'?
AntumDeluge: I was having the issue when mounted/attached to entities, but disabling anticheat didn't affect it. Maybe mounted/attached instances are unrelated.
IhrFussel: I thought players attached to entities are able to ignore the anti cheat entirely since that is server side controlled
AntumDeluge: Oh, ya. There is no message when attached to entities, so is unrelated.
IhrFussel: Yeah the 'moved too fast' for example triggers when the player loses connection for a bit without timing out completely and then reconnects and walked away a certain distance from the last known position
AntumDeluge: Okay, disabling anticheat seems to be working for normal movement. Thanks @IhrFussel. Just wish I could figure out what the problem with attached entities is.
IhrFussel: For that you need to describe the problem more detailed
IhrFussel: Under which circumstances do these messages appear?
Warr1024: Is there a significant performance disparity between minetest serialize/deserialize and write_json/parse_json?
sfan5: both are parsed by C/C++ code while one is specifically meant and probably optimized for data serialization
sfan5: in conclusion: who knows
rubenwardy: Serialize is in Lua and is faster
rubenwardy: JSON is in c++ and more standard
Jonathon: Just note https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7574 if your going to be handling a lot
Benrob0329: notes to get back to improving his rewrite sometime
independent56: i have just realised the three disadvantages of fast walk speed - Mapblock load, Accuracy, and feeling like a snail on other servers/
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix spurious shadow enablement in mainmenu 1372927b7 https://git.io/JcG5G (152021-06-30T15:10:28Z)
ghoti: I've noticed that the multicraft client on macOS seems to pause activity when it is not in the foreground, and when reactivated tries to "catch up" but usually times out from its server connection. Any idea if this is configurable behaviour, either in MC or in MT in general?
ghoti: MC2 on macOS, incidentally..
Jordach: It’s because of how M1 or iOS app enabled Macs handle inactivity
Jordach: Giving any other app focus will cause Multi a paused state
Jordach: I do however provide actual Intel and M1 enabled Minetest builds for Macs
Jordach: ghoti; https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jt3el1tn6s1yc82/AADHR74Y1tEQDb9NKQh5Csu-a
Jordach: I support Intel machines as old as Mavericks
ghoti: @Jordach, those appear to be MT 5.5 builds. I am only experiencing this with MC 2.0.0, it doesn't happen for me in MT 5.3 which I normally run.
ghoti: I'm happy to test things, though. What's the difference between the two versions? The embedded Lua interpreter?
Jordach: Because the Mac App Store version is an iOS build which effectively uses a SIGSTOP
Jordach: When window or full screen focus is lost
Jordach: This behaviour is the same on iOS devices
ghoti: Ah, interesting. Thank you, that makes sense.
ghoti: Is it an *actual* SIGSTOP? Could I reactivate it with a SIGCONT?
Jordach: iOS apps are treated as kernel user so they’re untouchable unless you have true root level access
Jordach: In other words they’re processes and a fake one at the same time
Jordach: I should say the process you can access is the window wrapper that holds the app process
Jordach: But access to the actual app process is restricted
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04AFCMS -> 03minetest/minetest: Run on_grant and on_revoke callbacks after privs change (#11387) 138cc04e0 https://git.io/JcZ8g (152021-06-30T18:40:45Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Inventory: Make addList() consistent (#11382) 13f2fd443 https://git.io/JcZ82 (152021-06-30T18:39:38Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Auth API: Error when accessed prior to ServerEnv init (#11398) 13062fd21 https://git.io/JcZ87 (152021-06-30T18:42:26Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04hecktest -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove unsupported video drivers (#11395) 13827a785 https://git.io/JcZ85 (152021-06-30T18:42:15Z)
ghoti: @Jordach, from a user perspective, will I see a difference betten the "Lua" and "aJIT" version? Is there one which needs more testing than the other?
Jordach: JIT runs on machines that use Mavericks
Jordach: while the BigSur one requires Big Sur as it's a fat binary containing machine code for M1 and iNTEL
ghoti: Ah, I am running Catalina at the moment..
ghoti: And I installed minetest from homebrew.
ghoti: So, no idea what binary I'm currently running. :)
Jordach: Catalina should work, the build runs fine on my 2013 Air
Jordach: for JIT at least
sfan5: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=396332#p396332
sfan5: !title
MinetestBot: sfan5: How I make a MPEG transport stream? - Minetest Forums
sfan5: heh
Krock: to make a tree
Krock: WAT
GreenXenith: Schematic files match MPEG2 encoding or something
jordan4ibanez: This man turned a youtube video into a map you can download
robyndrake: uhm sorry to bother with a stupid question, but is there a website with a referance to the modding API?
entuland: depends on what you mean with "reference"
entuland: the main reference is the lua_api.txt file you can find in the installation and on the github repo
entuland: then there is the modding book
robyndrake: ok, thank you
entuland: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt and https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/index.html
entuland: yw
Swift110-mobile: Nice jordach I have it on my 2010 MacBook running Catalina
Jordach: i haven't tested it with mavericks
Jordach: since it's compiled against big sur target libraries
Jordach: (but since i forced them to cxx11)
Jordach: things may work
Jordach: i really need a test VM
Warr1024: I can't remember if I asked this before or not, but how does one hold sneak or aux while punching or digging on Android?  I tried the obvious thing and it didn't work for me.
erlehmann: Warr1024 what is "the obvious thing"?
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04NeroBurner -> 03minetest/minetest: Use user provided lib/irrlichtmt if available (#11276) 13fa4dee0 https://git.io/Jcmsc (152021-06-29T07:57:19Z)
wwar: @Warr1024 you have to start digging before using sneak/aux, otherwise it wont work
wwar: Any item with "sneak+leftclick to use" will not work that you cant start digging and sneaking at the sametime
Warr1024: So it only works with dig, not punch then?
wwar: It works with punch too if you start punching first
Warr1024: You can't start a punch, punches are instantaneous
Warr1024: It sounds like a bug to me
wwar: you cant punch/dig after starting to sprint or sneak
IhrFussel: Huh? On my server you keep holding down punch until the monster with 5,000 HP dies eventually
wwar: yes i do?
wwar: I keep punching
IhrFussel: If your game only allows 1 punch then you need to find some kind of workaround for that
wwar: Dont hold my hand
wwar: thats one of the things which make android controllers harder
IhrFussel: AFAIK the punching mechanic depends on the tool/item registration
IhrFussel: For entities infinite punches definitely work
Warr1024: Huh, this is pretty bullshit.  MT's controls have a very limited vocabulary and this just makes it that much worse.
wwar: im saying if you need to punch or dig while sprinting or snekaing you need to start punching or digging first
wwar: Indeed, aswell as the fact you cant move the camera while punching or digging
Warr1024: Also Aux1 is not sprint, that's and MTGism
IhrFussel: I was responding to 'you cannot punch first since it's instant'
wwar: aa.. no as long as u dont hold ur hand it will keep punching
wwar: I really think punching/digging need a button just like left mouse click
Warr1024: The problem is that if I want to sneak punch I technically can but not without non-sneak punching first, so then it may be too late.
wwar: Adding that will remove this problem and will make people be able to move their camera while punching or digging
Warr1024: I can see why they don't just use the cursor
wwar: So you need a sneak+leftclick to activate something in a tool?
Warr1024: But maybe allowing these to be toggles instead of held might be better
Warr1024: Regular left click, sneak left click, aux left click, and sneak aux left click should all be able to be different things without breaking mobile
wwar: hmm.. adding one button as left mouse click to android will make that
Warr1024: Also making sneak and aux lock toggle on double tap could make it usable.
IhrFussel: If your tool uses on_use() then punching will only trigger once unfortuantely which means it will be super hard to do on mobile
wwar: > Also making sneak and aux lock toggle on double tap could make it usable. This isnt really needed, adding the button i mentioned will solve it, but maybe this as a setting you can enable/disable?
wwar: Anything that needs sneak or sprint and leftclick at the sametime to activate will not work on phone
wwar: Because these stuff needs to either start sneaking first or both at the sametime
Warr1024: There are apparently issues that cover this stuff in GH still open, I just had a hard time finding them because they're 3 years old.
wwar: I had a feature request, edited it a bit accordingly to this conversation
Warr1024: Issue number or link?
wwar: Oh sorry, #10843
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10843 -- Some edits on controls on phone devises
Warr1024: That issue title feels like it could be made more dire :-) The lack of parity between platforms is more of an accessibility problem than just a nice to have tweak.
wwar: About title, yeah it sucks i know
wwar: So that means it had to be an issue not a feature request?
Warr1024: It's a gray area maybe.  The lack of ability to enter certain inputs I feel is a bug.  Any particular approach to changing the controls though might be a feature, especially changing to a crosshair-centric system like desktop or adding a toggle for it.
wwar: I felt that too, that will rdquire making an issue and a featue request
Warr1024: Who actually maintains android anymore anyway?  Are we dependent on upstreaming from forks for it like we were in the past?
wwar: Require*
wwar: no idea
wwar: There is someone in credits who did some changes in android version tho
Warr1024: Maybe it does deserve a separate issue specifically for the lack of parity...
wwar: I mean.. it is only one and i think it will take some ages to be worked on
wwar: If im gonna split it to an issue and featue request.. probably they will never be worked on
Warr1024: Well, the proper flow of this would be to (1) identify the problem, i.e. that certain actions are simply impossible on mobile, and then (2) look at possible solutions (a left-click button or removing press-to-dig, vs sheak/aux toggles), and then (3) pick a solution that's actually practical and get it done.  Without a mobile expert to weigh in we can't know how difficult each approach is to actually do on mobile, and thus we can't know
MTDiscord: what's most likely to actually work within the development effort available.
wwar: Well i will gladly make much issues
wwar: I petsonally like reporting things to help development but when i see an issue with "high priority" that exist since 2014 i feel reporting these things is just adding an issue and it will never be fixed
wwar: I will add an issue for that hard controling on android tho
Warr1024: Haha, it's basically like people coming to the helpdesk, pushing past everyone to get to the front of the line: "but it's an emergency!" and then I say "oh, okay, emergencies are THAT line over there" and then point to the only line, which snakes around the block.
Warr1024: Every time I ask someone to rank-order their issues there's a decent chance it will come back all tied for first, "they're ALL the most important!"
wwar: Lol?
wwar: I didnt say these are the most important while not reporting tho :þ
Warr1024: I want to say that this is just how the software world works, but if you've ever sat in an Emergency Room waiting for 4+ hours, it seems like it's just how the world works.
wwar: And im not blaming how it works
Warr1024: What I'm saying is that even when the dev team itself prioritizes stuff, "high priority" doesn't necessarily mean it'll actually get worked on.
wwar: Well, i mean when i see what is high priority waited 7 years and didnt get fix, its most likely im just adding the issue to increase the stuff that will never be worked on, i'll add an issue for that android thing tho, thought that feature request was enough
Warr1024: To actually move forward, things need an intersection of someone with time available, someone with the necessary expertise in that particular area, high visibility for an issue, and a developer who actually agrees with the urgency ... even in my own projects I tend to accumulate new ultra-critical issues faster than they actually get done :-/
Warr1024: Yeah, I dunno
Warr1024: It seems like old stale issues should be closed, but people want to hang onto them if they've had any level of discussion, but there isn't a really practical way to give them a good "bump" either...
Warr1024: New fresh issues at least have a shot at making the cut, but it's also kind of dishonest to try closing an old issue and reopening one just to get it hot again :-)
wwar: I understand that devs cant fix everything very fast
Warr1024: It sucks for me too because (1) it's important to me that my game not discriminate against certain players, including mobile, and (2) I don't think I have the expertise to actually fix android controls.  What this means is that I will need to make sure that anything requiring use of sneak while doing anything other than moving is non-essential for gameplay.  It's rather limiting.
wwar: I will gladly make issues for everything, and im not saying 'devs dont work' or something, i do understand the fact they made a free game for people to have fun and they dont have to spend all their time in it
Warr1024: The most productive thing I feel I can do is help consolidate the issues around android so that they're gathered and organized in one place and can actually be reasonably prioritized ... but digging through a decade of issues that have all been handled inconsistently sucks too...
wwar: I'd be proud to be the one who mentions the important bugs in phones as long as its being taked care of
wwar: Thinking of a title for that issue im making rn.. expect a bad one tho
Warr1024: haha
Warr1024: Maybe what we need is one of those project/roadmap thingies that GH has, i.e. higher-order constructs that let you group and organize issues...
wwar: Well i think that will help dev side to see what is most important..
wwar: @Warr1024 #11404 hope others wont say its a feature request
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11404 -- Android controls are very limited
wwar: (Please ignore the titles of my issues)
Warr1024: heh
Warr1024: well, if there was an existing issue that covered this then I guess maybe we'll find out if it gets marked as duplicate
Warr1024: When people mark things as duplicate though, they often don't go back and merge the non-duplicate parts of the new issue with the OP of the old issue, so that would probably need to be fixed if so...
wwar: cant agree with that
wwar: In my first issue, they labelled it as duplicate
wwar: But after me telling them mine includes more details, they removed taht and closed the other one
wwar: That*
Warr1024: haha
Warr1024: yeah, that's gotta be improved
wwar: (And mine included more stuff needs to be fixec)
wwar: Fixed*
Warr1024: It does help to keep issues concise and focused and label them well.  If you get too deep into the weeds in your topic, and it includes stuff that's not described in the title, then that stuff may get more easily lost.  There's a fine art to filing issues, and if I find a  method that works consistently with MT I'll let you know ;-)
wwar: Heh, yeah when i make an issue i make it detailed and contain side stuff (and im nit the best with titles :þ)
celeron55: the hairier you make an issue or a PR, the less likely it is to get solved or merged
Warr1024: There's a balancing act because (1) you do need to clarify sometimes when something that sounds like an obvious solution wouldn't fill the actual need, and (2) too many fine-grained issues is just gonna make the issues list harder to search and navigate.
wwar: Hairier?
Warr1024: I believe "hairier" is used here to mean "more surface area."
Warr1024: Like that request at the top for the ABM batched API that I partly misinterpreted the first time because it was just so long-winded...
wwar: Ah i see
Warr1024: A good issue is sort of like an elevator pitch.  You get a limited amount of attention from anyone reading your issue, and you have to make the best use of it, to get them to understand your issue and agree that it's worth addressing.
Warr1024: You need to be informative and persuasive so there isn't as much room to be contemplative...
wwar: I dont think i used hard terms or things that is hard to be understood, if there are then please let me know
wwar: > the hairier you make an issue or a PR, the less likely it is to get solved or merged i added that issue to help the devs in knowing how to improve the android version and how to make it easier to use.. solve it if you like, dont if you dont like..
wwar: Im personally used to the current controls, i use them for 5 years and they are good to me, but i mentioned what can be improved
celeron55: by hairy i mean adding stuff not strictly related to the core issue or change, or something that someone can disagree on while agreeing on the main thing
wwar: While fixing it you dont need to agree with everything in it, fix the things that you see uhmm.. make sense
wwar: im saying everything related to the main issue, fix the ones you want/agree with
Warr1024: The first person you need to sell an issue to is really yourself.  If you don't really feel strongly enough about something to champion it then your issue probably won't go very far.
wwar: I will not lose anything if it doesnt get merged tbh, and yeah i did ask myself and this wasnt the first time i think about controls
Warr1024: As a developer, I've found that what I've come to call a Pigovian Tax is a pretty simple and adaptable way to tell if users really care about their issues or not, and if they don't care, then I probably shouldn't either.
Warr1024: Just ask them to pay a little extra attention to see if they still care once they're forced to internalize some of the extra cost beyond just filing the issue.  Ask them if the problem is still valid, or to provide some test cases, or to demonstrate it.
Warr1024: If someone is asking me to stay late after work to fix some critical issue, then dammit, they're staying with me >:-|
wwar: I understand that, i see merging it will do a huge difference in the game play, i was saying, i added it for help and im ready to add any needed information to it but i what i meant was that i mentioned the related things to it and u dont need to agee with the whole issue  fix/merge the things you agree with
wwar: If you have any question/need any farther info in any issue i added you can @me and i will do my best
Warr1024: Yeah, it's all good.  We'll see where it goes.
Warr1024: I'd love for an issue like that to be championed by someone passionate about it, but I think all my passionate championing is already allocated elsewhere.
wwar: Well if you ask me i will say that issue adds things that will change the whole gameplay and make the difference between playing on a phone and a pc alot less
wwar: And i do want it to be merged and im always available to add more info in these covid days..
wwar: Was saying, when you disagree with a part of it you can either say why you disagree with that part or just not care about it
Warr1024: One irony here is that I think the engine's goal should be parity between desktop and mobile (and it's a goal for my game), but it seems like there are segments of the server and modder population who go the opposite way and are actively trying to differentiate and discriminate against mobile users.
wwar: Im not a programmer so i cant know what is easy to do and what isnt, but i really thought alot about that one and i see adding a single button to fix all that issues isnt hard to do
wwar: Isnt as hard as the other things i thought of
Warr1024: It's all a mess too because mobile controls need to be "intuitive" but then there's the question of "intuitive for whom" because what we call "intuition" is more often learned than innate.
Warr1024: I don't play a ton on mobile but it is a decent way to play side-by-side multiplayer when the person you want to play sitting next to has their computer in a different room than your own.
Warr1024: So far luckily I haven't run into any really game-breaking issues yet, but at least now I know I need to be on my guard.
Warr1024: Can't just use the sneak and aux controls for whatever I want to; optional things only.
wwar: I will gladly help in anything i can help with
Warr1024: Heh, so apparently sneak+drop and aux+drop are possible on mobile, just awkward
Warr1024: when you press and hold the sneak or aux keys, it closes the action menu that contains the drop command
Warr1024: so you have to hold sneak THEN expand the menu and then hit drop
Warr1024: but at least it's possible.
Warr1024: IIRC sneak+dig is used in games as a convention for "actually just dig, don't punch"
Warr1024: similar to how sneak+place is used for "actually place, don't right-click the thing I'm placing against"
wwar: > Heh, so apparently sneak+drop and aux+drop are possible on mobile, just awkward Yes this is true also sneak/aux+rightclick(double click) works aswell, i think the problem is in leftclick(press hplding) it wont work while using sneak or aux since you are already pressing and holding on sneak/aux
wwar: That is why my suggestion was a button, to not confuse the devise by holding to dig/punch and holding to aux/sneak at the sametime
wwar: (i tried aux+drop in NC and it works well
wwar: > when you press and hold the sneak or aux keys, it closes the action menu that contains the drop command > so you have to hold sneak THEN expand the menu and then hit drop Yeah.. since both are buttons one of them should be pressed longly to activate the other one by normal clicking while holding the first one, and since holding drop makes nothing, you gotta hold sneak or aux
wwar: > similar to how sneak+place is used for "actually place, don't right-click the thing I'm placing against" This works fine in android, only leftclick(holding) have a problem
Warr1024: Okay, good to know that the problem is limited to just LMB...
wwar: good luck~
Warr1024: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11399#issuecomment-870744300 -- proof of concept works pretty nicely...
Lone_Wolf: This does nothing if def.damage is 1 or 0 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456539013491458079/859527153287823380/unknown.png
Lone_Wolf: I expect fleshy = 1 to deal half a heart of damage
Krock: 1 deals 1 HP damage
Krock: might or might not by 1/2 of a heart
Krock: s/by/be/
ghoti: In basic_robot, what function should I be looking at to use tools? I'd like to make a farming robot that harvests with a scythe rather than just punching the ground.
Lone_Wolf: 1 deals 0 damage
Lone_Wolf: 2 deals 1hp damage
Lone_Wolf: aka a half heart
calcul0n_: ghoti, i doubt it's possible, the bot can't use tools
Lone_Wolf: Join the game with this mod enabled, you should have full health then after 5 seconds a half heart loss https://pastebin.com/kCSwH0Ve
Lone_Wolf: (@Krock)
Krock: @Lone_Wolf check for shield effect
Krock: i.e. armor group.
Lone_Wolf: https://i.imgur.com/fOoRKdw.png
Lone_Wolf: (Player armor groups)
Lone_Wolf: Ok, it's the full_punch_interval
Lone_Wolf: What's the default when full_punch_interval isn't set?
Krock: 1.4 according to engine defaults if nothing is specified
Krock: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/a106bfd456509b676ccba0ac9bef75c214819028/src/tool.h#L66
ghoti: calcul0n_: ah, so the best I can do is keep a running supply of seeds which I collect with pickup() ?  (Or would a robot automatically pick up items freed while digging?)
calcul0n_: ghoti,  it will get seeds when you dig crops, but for some reason wheat is buggy so it doesn't get them all
calcul0n_: might depend on the version you're using
jordan4ibanez: Hahaha, ghoti I like your name
independent56: I wish ARS has global variables, so you could have a group of lines for oversized trains.
independent56: melatonin drunkness.
independent56: my server gets 1 guest per day on average. they comment on the lag and leave
specing: lool
Lone_Wolf: Are particle velocities in nodes/s?
Krock: @Lone_Wolf yes
independent56: I have a 2 questions about advtrains.
independent56: 1 - why do routes refuse to set sometimes, forcing me to use the map to find the stopped trains andfind the front of the queue, and enable that one route?
independent56: 2 - Do railway maintainers on servers suffer this problem on a regular basis?
independent56: 3 - Does this happen in LF?
independent56: 4 - If not, why not?
independent56: Forgive me, i lied about the quantity of questions
Lone_Wolf: Sweet, thanks
Krock: LF = linefeed
Krock: CR = carriage return ??
specing: LF = linux forks
independent56: Yeah, sorry. I am used to calling it "LF" because i wrote about the server a lot (in a degrading way) in a personal document.
independent56: LF is entirely for trains. But my passion for trains caused me to overlook the quality of moderation there
erlehmann: i want to create an LBM that updates node meta with new content. is it a good idea to register the lbm name based on the new content i want to put in the node meta?
SwissalpS: a descriptive name is a good name :)
Krock: ignore comments and descriptive names. return to minimalism. use one-letter variables and compress your code!
erlehmann: SwissalpS, Krock i mean this so that if the content changes the node meta is always updated
SwissalpS: something tells me we are responding to a question you did not ask. In other words: I probably didn't quite understand exactly what you are asking
Warr1024: An LBM is triggered when a node is contained in a mapblock which is just loaded, i.e. from disk or mapgen.  If what you want is to set meta every time a node is actually placed into the world, then that can be more or less complex, depending on the ways that node could be placed.
Warr1024: You can use an on_construct call to catch most ways a node can be placed; you miss only vmanips and fluid transform IIRC.  An LBM is useful to update nodes that already existed in the map before you add the construction hook.
erlehmann: yeah so
erlehmann: in this case mineclone2 has removed formspecs from node metas
erlehmann: but mineclonia has them there
erlehmann: you know, it's the lag friendly solution
erlehmann: so if you migrate a server from mineclone2 past commit 819dbc6224c3b96ad4094cccf3d9150f3ef61d45 to mineclonia, ender chests will not work
erlehmann: i want to introduce an LBM that sets the formspec for existing ender chests
erlehmann: it is, as Warr1024 correctly assumed, usually set when an ender chest is built
SwissalpS: yeah, sounds like lbm can help there. one time only needed, most likely.
erlehmann: well, the trick is: by making the name of the lbm depend on the formspec using minetest.sha1(formspec) (is that correct?), i want to ensure that every time the formspec is updated, a new lbm is created.
erlehmann: now i am looking for reasons to not do that
Warr1024: LBMs have to have a modname: prefix, but other than that, I don't see much problem with that idea
Warr1024: except in the case where they change the formspec to A, then to B, then back to A again
SwissalpS: one would need to carefully test that with every update
Warr1024: yeah, it feels like either manual versioning, or an external script that's a bit more complex than just the formspec contents itself, would be needed.
SwissalpS: you can also leave a trail in the meta of the node too.
erlehmann: wdym trail
Warr1024: Keeping track of past values in the node won't help you inform the engine of the need to run an LBM to find those nodes in the first place though.
SwissalpS: most likely the lbm that deletes meta does not delete all entries, only certain known ones. so your own meta would stay untouched. Alowing you to check it and other meta entries to determine what needs to be added. you could cache data in your own keys for example
Warr1024: So if they change the formspec from A to B to A2 then you'll need to retire the A and the B LBMs and have an A2 one to make sure that all the ones that have run both A and B go back to A again.
erlehmann: nah in this case the meta is pretty easy
SwissalpS: Warr: true, unless you have the lbm run on every load and look for specific node.
Warr1024: You ... frankly could just run on every load I guess :-)
Warr1024: Checking a meta string is not THAT expensive.
SwissalpS: it sounds like the simpler solution yes.
Warr1024: The wasted effort of rechecking a handful of nodes unnecessarily may be well worth it to avoid the headaches of having to track down every weird corner cases that upstream changes may trigger.
SwissalpS: +1
Warr1024: Just (1) try the run_on_every_load option or whatever it's called, and then (2) don't worry about it again unless you encounter a problem with it, and then come back and ask again :-)
Warr1024: Ender chests should be rare enough that you wouldn't notice a problem anyway.  Somebody would have to build an entire fortress out of the things before e.g. slow loading times from this should become a problem.
SwissalpS: dynamically creating lbms sounds like asking for trouble
Warr1024: I mean, modding MT is asking for trouble to begin with ... and automatic dynamic LBMs sounds interesting :-)
Warr1024: If you don't like asking for trouble then you don't want to see what I've done with ABMs :-)
erlehmann: Warr1024 show and tell
erlehmann: pls
Warr1024: Exhibit A: the engine caches info about ABMs for speed, but the cache strategy is completely disabled if there are more than like 63 ABMs.  I have a game that has 82 ABMs.  I realize that many of them have similar signatures from the engine's perspective, so I create a system for automatically multiplexing them that allows me to squash them into about 36 and make caching work again.
MTDiscord: https://gitlab.com/sztest/nodecore/-/blob/master/mods/nc_api_active/abmmux.lua
Warr1024: Exhibit B: ABM neighbor checks are expensive, so if you want an ABM to run when common node A is next to rare node B, it's more efficient to check for B next to A, but I have a number of ABMs already written in the first form, and it would be a pain to invert them across the whole mod ecosystem.  Instead, I'd rather just add a "neighbor_invert" flag to the ABM API that does this for me in the most reasonable way I can:
MTDiscord: https://gitlab.com/sztest/nodecore/-/blob/master/mods/nc_api_active/abminvert.lua
Warr1024: There's probably other crazy stuff in there too.  I used to have an auto-rate-limiting ABM system, but that ended up being stubbed out as ABM time budgeting constraints have evolved to make it no longer make sense.
erlehmann: Warr1024 what is the reason for the caching being disabled?
robyndrake: what version of lua is used with minetest, and where can I download such an interpretor?
robyndrake: please?
Krock: Lua 5.1
Krock: with with JIT or without
Krock: luarocks might use it, dunno.
Warr1024: erlehmann: A single 64-bit integer is used as a bitmap to track the applicable/not-applicable state of an ABM within a given mapblock, and if there are too many ABMs to fit in that bitmap then it just gives up on the whole thing.  I don't know exactly why it was done this way or what would have had to be done differently to allow it to expand dynamically.
robyndrake: will lua 5.1.5 work Krock, and thank you btw
Krock: robyndrake: yes
robyndrake: Thank you again
Krock: !next
MinetestBot: Another satisfied customer. Next!
erlehmann: https://content.minetest.net/help/content_flags/
erlehmann: the content flags are all for disgusting stuff
erlehmann: i guess buttplug.io interfacing would be banned :(
erlehmann: oh
erlehmann: i can just say it is for the xbox controller ^^
erlehmann: of my … xbox
erlehmann: hehe
Warr1024: Not necessarily "disgusting" but "potentially objectionable".  Tags are things you'd be looking to find, content flags are things you'd be looking to avoid.
Warr1024: I believe the de facto standard is that content with no content flags should be PEGI7 and content flags allow for specific exceptions to that standard where set.
Warr1024: Of course there are some packages that use them incorrectly, like a few that use the "horror" flag somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
Calinou: Map Tools 2.2.0 released. Coin crafting recipes are now disabled by default: https://github.com/minetest-mods/maptools/releases/tag/v2.2.0
Calinou: also More Blocks 2.2.0: https://github.com/minetest-mods/moreblocks/releases/tag/v2.2.0
Calinou: and More Ores 2.1.0: https://github.com/minetest-mods/moreores/releases/tag/v2.1.0
wwar: Nice updates :+1:
Swift110-mobile_: Hey folks
Sven_vB: hi :)
Jonathon: hi
VanessaE: so I was looking at the profiler output on one of my servers..
VanessaE: https://pastebin.com/yfCUewEu
VanessaE: line 126...  why is the mod there identified only as "??"  ?
VanessaE: I think it's biome_lib, and if so I'd like to fix that, but how?
independent56: ok... so is this how bouncers work? http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/htdocs/view/35cb6657 i disconnect, and it replays all the history?
Jonathon: ?? Is used when the engine cant figure out what a mod is. For crashes/mod origin/profiling
VanessaE: sure, but that raises the question of why it can't figure it out.  no mapblocks were harmed in the making of that profiler dump (i.e. no crashes were involved) :)
Jonathon: If you register a node in register_on_mods loaded it cant figure it out
celeron55: i was thinking the same, the only time the engine knows what mod is running is when it loads them
celeron55: anything they do in a callback is a complete mystery to the engine
celeron55: so make sure to use a good label in those
celeron55: well, except that only abms support profiler labels
VanessaE: but I'm talking about a globalstep, they don't have labels :)
celeron55: i guess those should be added to others too
celeron55: labels i mean
sfan5: there's core.set_last_run_mod
celeron55: or, just register the globalstep callback at load time
sfan5: which is also used to identify callbacks
VanessaE: I... um... do.
celeron55: ok show the code
VanessaE: https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/biome_lib/-/blob/master/block_queue_checks.lua
VanessaE: ah wait
sfan5: (what I mean are these -> https://0x0.st/-pp6.txt)
VanessaE: that bit of code is loaded in a minetest.after()
VanessaE: I completely forgot about that
sfan5: so the engine could probably tell you it was biome_lib in a crash message but the profiler doesn't seem to use this info
VanessaE: sfan5: your link doesn't load for me.
sfan5: it's the output of grep -n -C4 'last_run' builtin -r
VanessaE: set_last_run_mod() isn't mentioned in lua_api.txt...
sfan5: of course not, it's internal
VanessaE: right.
VanessaE: that still leaves me with no way to identify this bit of code in the profiler :)
VanessaE: here's where it's loaded, btw: https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/biome_lib/-/blob/master/init.lua#L80
sfan5: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/builtin/game/register.lua#L472
sfan5: since get_current_modname only works at load time this could probably fall back to get_last_run_mod
VanessaE: wait wait, so I actually found an engine bug for once? ;)
sfan5: just a missing feature ;)
VanessaE: heh
AndrewYu: https://andrewyu.org/bin/mtbuilderror -- what am i doing wrong?
AndrewYu: gnutls?
celeron55: try adding #include <memory> to the beginning-ish of clientiface.cpp like it suggests
* AndrewYu: may try
celeron55: what OS is that?
celeron55: and compiler
celeron55: also versions of those
AndrewYu: Linux core 5.12.13-arch1-1 #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed, 23 Jun 2021 16:19:29 +0000 x86_64 GNU/Linux
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
AndrewYu: gcc version 11.1.0 (GCC)
sfan5: are you building 5.4.1?
sfan5: we have this fix in master github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/7c2826cbc
celeron55: well that's definitely it
AndrewYu: hmm
AndrewYu: i cloned that repo like a long time ago, that's why
celeron55: you just need to git pull then
AndrewYu: yeh
AliasAlreadyTake: VanessaE: We had a similar problem when it came to profiling core.after, so we added profiling to builtin. Our "profiling" doesn't go to the MT profiler, but writes to a table which you can then export eventually. It does nothing but calculate the times core.after uses for each one.
AndrewYu: What is the limitation of MT displaying unicode, ie. Chinese charactars 像这样? Fonts? Protocol? (I hope it'd be fonts. Then it could be fixed with a simple client modification)
Warr1024: Have you tried it and found it not to be working?  I would expect the fonts to be the only barrier...
Warr1024: As I recall, MT ships with Arimo and Cousine fonts, and I don't know what their unicode coverage is like.  I think Noto Sans has very good coverage though, so maybe swapping it in would work.
Warr1024: Unfortunately I think font installation may be manual, which means probably particularly annoying on android?  You have to install the fonts either system-wide maybe or in ~/.minetest/fonts...
AndrewYu: True
AndrewYu: I'm on archlinux, it should be okay. However, one of my friends is on Windows, which *might* make things harder
MNH48: for CJK characters, it's just font... I used Noto Sans CJK and it will usually appear fine
MNH48: but for arabic, there might be separate issue
* AndrewYu: is not arabic :D
Warr1024: I remember the issue with Noto Sans being that there are so many characters in unicode they couldn't fit them all into one font
Warr1024: Minetest also only shows text in one font at a time and doesn't switch fonts based on language, so I think it probably doesn't do the "fallback" font thing
AndrewYu: I guess I
AndrewYu: I'm going to use Noto Sans CJK SC for my chinese
Warr1024: I think on Windows installing a font is just the same process, isn't it?  Find the font, drop it into the minetest "fonts" folder, and then change the font setting, whatever that is
* AndrewYu: will try to let his friend solve Windows since AndrewYu is a windows idiot
Pexin: AndrewYu: are you talking chat output or formspec?
MNH48: the chat does work in displaying chinese, when font is set to Noto Sans CJK SC ... though input might be a problem on windows side
MNH48: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/858206643313311764/unknown.png
independent56_: ahaha, yeah "farTown" is a much better name
independent56_: is there a way, using amidst, that i can see contours? i need a relitively flat section of land for a settlement, but i dont want to load all those mapblocks scouting, i need to use amidst.
AntumDeluge: Is it possible, in a mod, to show a node texture to one player, but show a different texture on the same node to a different player?
AntumDeluge: I have my own fork of the walking_light mod. It has a debugging mode that changes the texture of nodes with light added. However, when the debugging is enabled, all players see the texture change. I was wondering if it would be possible to only show the texture change to the admin that invoked the command to enable debugging. Or, as an alternative, only show the texture to players that have a certain privilege.
AntumDeluge: https://github.com/AntumMT/mod-walking_light/blob/bf57713/chat.lua#L70
Warr1024: The only visuals you can show to selected players only as far as I know are particles and HUDs
Warr1024: There are also image waypoint HUDs so you don't have to use text waypoints.
Warr1024: Obviously both are extremely limited in that you can de fact only show sprites with them
Warr1024: I have an "admin mode" in my puzzlemap mod that allows admins to see nodes that have special attributes attached to them, and I believe I ended up using particles to do that.  It was very much not ideal but I don't think there were really better options.
AntumDeluge: Thank you @Warr1024. I appreciate that input. It sounds like particles may be what I need to use. I was just now looking at waypoints (as I know nothing about them, & it was suggested I use them for a different mod). But sounds like from what you say, I won't be able to use them to visually represent a node on the screen.
Extex: Is there some way to find Servers that contain a certain mod?
Extex: Like you can see what mods a specific server has but is there a way to see what servers have a mod
AntumDeluge: As far as I know, there is no way to look it up.
AntumDeluge: I know that some servers use a specific game. If you know the game they use, you can look up which mods that particular game includes.
AntumDeluge: There is the /mods chat command, but you can only use that once you have connected. And not sure if need any special privileges to use it.
Warr1024: the server list actually captures mod lists from servers, IF they're using the normal MT server software or otherwise volunteer that information when pinged by the server list
Warr1024: searching the server list requires you to parse the JSON probably
Warr1024: the data is definitely there for at least some servers because you can see it on the HTML-formatted list too...
AntumDeluge: @Warr1024 I see what you mean. I went to https://servers.minetest.net/ and by hovering my cursor over Version, Subgame[, Mapgen] column, I can see the installed mods for many of them.
independent56_: extex: you might do a crtl+f in https://servers.minetest.net. there, you can look for the mod, and it might show up.
independent56_: nope, but in https://server.minetest.net/list you will be able to do that. one warning - it is unformatted. no syntax colouring. expect to get eyestraon
independent56_: https://servers.minetest.net/list <-- not broken link
independent56_: yes, its a hack. but it will work.
twoelk: hm, activated  coolTrees and moreTrees, now my map gets taken over by giant trees.  I also installed all flower mods I could find -- it's a lush world
twoelk: oops, giant sequias pop up everywhere, this can't be right
VanessaE: that's the idea :D
VanessaE: except not really
VanessaE: they ARE limited to certain areas
VanessaE: https://daconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/worldmaps/Traintable_World/map.html#20/-338.00000/-278.50000
VanessaE: this is carpathian mapgen with the full suite of flora
VanessaE: you can see by browsing around where they'll show up, like at the west end of that east/west road
independent56_: https://imgur.com/a/1QaNu05 please rate my sextuple track viaduct. i spent 30 minutes on it.
VanessaE: (I tried to make them need dry-ish conditions)
twoelk: including that beautiflowers mod and nettles mod and wine and cuchina vegana and .... ?
VanessaE: well I don't have THOSE
VanessaE: but between plantlift, moretrees, and cool_trees there isn't much room left :D
VanessaE: plantlife*
twoelk: that's the problem I was having
VanessaE: well it doesn't help that the engine tends to overload the landscape with default trees
twoelk: seems I got to limit moretrees somewhat
VanessaE: that map I linked?  that's typical of what I see on brand new worlds
VanessaE: btw if you don't mind a little lag, you can configure moretrees to spawn the trees themselves at mapgen time, rather than spawning them as saplings that grow a bit later
twoelk: I really like how cooltrees gives more variety to jungles and tundra
VanessaE: independent56_: it looks like total ass and you should be ashamed.
VanessaE: :P
VanessaE: (it looks fine :) )
independent56_: XD yeah
independent56_: i mean, if i didnt fold it, then it would look worse. double deckerr was the only solution
independent56_: but mainly, i end up with horrible straight tracks. https://imgur.com/a/RuY8VLT each of those lines is a track. i built multiple ones because "why not?"
twoelk: playing with flower mods
twoelk: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/858269670867992596/screenshot_20210626_091629.png
VanessaE: independent56_: you should play on my traintable server
VanessaE: seems like you'd bring some order to the chaos that is its current rail system :P
independent56_: link to images?
VanessaE: don't have any handy
twoelk: desert plants didn't spread as intended - they had plans of their own
twoelk: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/858270256120594432/screenshot_20210626_092131.png
independent56_: screenshot > imgur > save lives (UK gov parody)
VanessaE: except that map link is current as of just minutes ago
independent56_: hmm, show me the link. i can look at the chaos
VanessaE: https://daconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/worldmaps/Traintable_World/map.html#20/-355.00000/-533.50000
independent56_: wow... thats a long url
VanessaE: twoelk, a bit much don't you think? :P
independent56_: modestly sized, cool server. i prefer my own.
twoelk: yeah, like I said. - They might have plottet to take over
VanessaE: lol
independent56_: you put my "airport" to shame: http://2.26.38.198:8080/#!/map/0/11/-226/-66
VanessaE: I didn't build it :)
VanessaE: I think User11 or ck43 did
independent56_: well, you supervised it's building.
VanessaE: nope
independent56_: 0_0
VanessaE: I was barely even there
independent56_: "let me just get into this server, build silenty, and leave haha i am so evil"
VanessaE: heh
independent56_: let me show you a comparison image of old spawn station and new one
independent56_: if it loads...
independent56_: https://imgur.com/a/6N4flRi
independent56_: the second image is all i have
independent56_: zoom in XD
twoelk: looks very simplistic - could use some structural elements giving the space some rythm - but then again that is what many modern stations look like
independent56_: yeah, i was aiming for that look. and all the more space to see your train
twoelk: is sofar around? his flower pot mod and his item frame mod seem broken
twoelk: in mt 5.dev
twoelk: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/858275036842295336/flowerpotbroken.png
twoelk: that's supposed to be a viola in the pot and frame
twoelk: somebody allready mentioned that in Nov 2020 in the forum in the frames thread
independent56_: im hoinh to write an issue for minetest about powerusers
specing: What's the issue?
independent56_: issue 11 K
independent56_: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11392
specing: > forced to make use of my touch pad
specing: get a trackpoint lmao
independent56_: XD yeah nah.
Warr1024: Is it possible to override minetest.conf settings at the world level for SP, e.g. via world.mt?
Warr1024: I have in the past used minetest.settings:set() to enforce world-specific config, e.g. as could be done in a worldmod, but this "leaks out" into the minetest.conf file and thus also affects worlds that want to use a default value.
appguru: You can reset settings on shutdown
appguru: As the game might crash, you should probably persistently store old values as _old_somesetting = old_value and restore them on next start
Warr1024: ...well yes but actually (shudder)
appguru: heh, you can even change the font - and it will work - this way
appguru: it's brilliant
Warr1024: I can't restore them on start though because if the next start is into the world that runs this mod code, then it won't want the settings restored, and if it's into one that doesn't, it won't have the code to do the restoring.
appguru: yep, users will have to rejoin your world after the crash
appguru: or at least have to use the mod in both worlds
Warr1024: Ugh ... I mean, is there a real solution I can try first before I try to find the end on the roll of duct tape?
appguru: Sir, this is a Minetest's
VanessaE: so...
VanessaE: I have a wireguard VPN set up, which I've initially configured so that the only that's routed over it is access to a webpage/service that runs on the endpoint machine (unrelated to anything I'm asking about), while all other traffic normally just goes straight out without routing through the VPN layer.
VanessaE: the endpoint machine... you all know it. runs my game servers too
VanessaE: If I adjust the wireguard config so that ALL traffic is routed through it, everything works just fine and the world thinks I'm in France.
VanessaE: Except... I can't connect to my MT servers
VanessaE: I can reach webpages running on the machine, and literally everything else works, but the client can't reach the servers -- the connection times out
VanessaE: (the config adjustment above is a single-line change, the AllowedIPs setting)
Warr1024: NAT for UDP might be a bit more complicated because the NATting side may not implicitly know to create applicable reverse routes...?  Might have to use bidirectional NAT instead of traditional?
VanessaE: I ... am not sure I understandf
VanessaE: -f
Warr1024: I've solved the opposite problem, i.e. forwarding ONLY MT traffic from a gateway machine to a host.
Warr1024: The situation parallels yours in that it involves MT servers and wireguard.  The difference is that the MT server host has no means of setting up forwarding, but I had a spare VPS box that I could use so he's basically borrowing just the IP/ports from me.
Warr1024: Users connect to the public MT server, iptables on the VPS forwards the connections thru wireguard, and his host "dials out" with wireguard to setup the tunnel to make his MT servers available.
VanessaE: wait wait
VanessaE: you're looking at it from the wrong side :P
Warr1024: Yeah, I only have a solution from the wrong side
VanessaE: everyone else can reach the MT servers except me :)
Warr1024: so I'm not sure if it can help you, but maybe there is some insight buried in here
VanessaE: I mean, the VPN endpoint IS the machine the games are running on
Warr1024: iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p udp --dport $PUBLICPORT -j DNAT --to-destination $WGPEERADDRESS:$MTPORT iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o wg0 -j MASQUERADE
Warr1024: Hmm, so you're like VPNing into your MT server to make your traffic come from the MT server?
Warr1024: the problem might be that you can't connect out to the public IP of the MT server, you'd have to use the private internal IP
VanessaE: to make my own internet traffic seem to originate from that machine, yes.
Warr1024: but sometimes you can fake it to rewrite outbound traffic to the public IP as going to the private one instead
Warr1024: but that depends a lot on your specific firewall and iptables is not one I know well.
VanessaE: ok, I didn't think to try using the endpoint's WG IP..
* VanessaE: tries
Warr1024: I know that on OpenBSD using pf it's an issue, and I use a "redirection" to rewrite all traffic
VanessaE: AH
VanessaE: THAt works
Warr1024: Yeah, that'll work, but that's gotta be annoying having to have different addresses depending on whether you're using the VPN or not...
VanessaE: I can reach the game server if I use the remote's wg IP instead of the public domain/IP
Warr1024: (and it being different from your regular players)
VanessaE: ok, so
VanessaE: the MT server saw me as connecting from 10.5.5.1, my PC's end of the VPN layer
Warr1024: Yep, that's how it works
VanessaE: which is what I expected.
Warr1024: the VPN is like a separate network adapter with its own address and network and such
Warr1024: and that's what you connected using
VanessaE: but why won't MT answer, yet nginx, for example, does?
Warr1024: if you can figure out the redirection/rewrite rule then you can make it so you can connect to the public IP but you'll still always see the VPN IP from MT's perspective.
VanessaE: I mean, I can point my browser at any webpage that's served-up from the nginx instance on the server, using the public domain/IP, and it works
Warr1024: The MT/nginx thing is why I suspect there's a TCP/UDP disparity in how the firewall is handling state.
VanessaE: hm
VanessaE: and something in your iptables command may be the answer?
Warr1024: That seems weird to me because when I use pf, it handles TCP/UDP about the same, i.e. it seems to either work or not work for each using the same rules.  I don't know why iptables should require different rules for UDP to work, but then, I don't see why iptables should do a lot it does the way it does.
Warr1024: Yeah, my iptables command is at least worth trying to understand ... maybe I should do that some day.
Warr1024: It could also be an MT thing I suppose.  The dude who's actually hosting the servers has had all sorts of headaches trying to get MT to accept every connection on every port 30000 ... but in his case the biggest headache was an IPv4/v6 issue at the time.
Warr1024: Using wg now everything is just pure v4 so I think things are simpler now at least.
VanessaE: maybe this then, iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p udp --dport 30000:40000 -j DNAT --to-destination 10.5.5.1 iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o wg0 -j MASQUERADE
Warr1024: As long as you don't decapitate yourself by changing something that would affect port 22, you can always experiment :-)
VanessaE: hm, missed a semicolon and I guess I want the server's wg IP in there.
VanessaE: BINGO
VanessaE: thanks :D
independent56_: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=guidelines:railway_guide can i get some critiscism of my article?
Krock: cannot edit
independent56_: you shouldnt
independent56_: just tell me what is wrong
Krock: why not
entuland: meh, the page is "classed" as good, doesn't have a capital letter at the beginning of the sentences -literally none - and drops into useless antagonizing and gratuitous belittling of other people's work / world
independent56_: it's my wiki, i say what i like. it is written formally, and it is wiki styke to not have capital letters. that server is the one which gave me endeless suffering.
* entuland: shrugs
Krock: btw: "I" is always written in capitals
Krock: but I dId not mean It lIke thIs but only for the person "I"
independent56_: ok I wIll do that all the tIme now.
rubenwardy: > this page is classed as good. it features good writing and is to be held as an example of good pages.
rubenwardy: https://rwdy.uk/BTvDu.png
rubenwardy: > written formally
rubenwardy: > no capital letters
specing: lol
independent56_: meh, my wiki
entuland: rubenwardy++
entuland: independent56_, you asked for criticism
independent56_: and i assume full and undesputed control over rating.
Krock: thanks rubenwardy. perfect meme use
rubenwardy: also booo https://rwdy.uk/vilx2.png
independent56_: i meant in terms of the advice, or sentence slips. not the capitals or rating.
Krock: also get a domain
rubenwardy: yeah, raw IP addresses are super super dodgy
independent56_: i should... too much bother for mum.
rubenwardy: if you want a free one you can use minetest.land
Krock: less dodgy than benrob's shady website... https://totallynotashadyweb.site/
independent56_: ha! tiddlywiki!
Krock: with edit permissions from what it looks like
Warr1024: Tiddlywiki, nice, but that layout...
Krock: ahhh yeessss
Krock: new entry *check*
independent56_: as long as it dosent save to the server, i think that's fine
Krock: aw snap. it really seems to be local only
rubenwardy: it's hosted using gitlab pages
rubenwardy: so no hope for being user-editable
Krock: unless it has git integration
independent56_: can anyone tell me a about a dokuwiki plugin which will automaticaly capitalise?
Krock: don't capitalise. be a communist.
rubenwardy: you could try this: https://rwdy.uk/WSeOf.png
Krock: rubenwardy: no, the upper key is more reliable
Krock: ALLOWS YOU TO CAPITALISE EVERYTHING EASIER
independent56_: too much effort to edit every page and do that.
Krock: perhaps write it correctly from the beginning?
independent56_: i would have done that if i was not so stupid
independent56_: anYways, aLl this Discussion of Capital LeTters, and yoU are not Using TheM?
rubenwardy: context
rubenwardy: It's fine to not use capitals consistently in a chat, but not in a "formal" article
rubenwardy: or any article with longform text
Krock: with incomplete sentences at times
rubenwardy: chat tends to be incomplete sentences, and at most one sentence
independent56_: hmm... well i need to use a perl script to find and regexreplace stuff... like i go do "\. (.)" to "\. $1".
independent56_: maybe not a script, but a command, like sed.
independent56_: but i will have to test in one test file.
appguru: You can't really uses RegExes, you'll need a proper document tree
appguru: For the content of nodes you will then be able to use regexes to split it into sentences, of which you should capitalize the first letter
appguru: Probably you should use a natural language processing library for the latter though
appguru: https://polyglot.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html <- polyglots tokenization would do the job
appguru: Let the serial wheel reinventor tell you one thing: You can often be a thousand times faster if you don't reinvent the wheel.
independent56_: is there any guide to build a railyard in advtrains? i am unsure. mainly about getting trains to stick there, and making interlocking give them the right route. if it is only luacontrollers then i might be able to get it to work.
independent56_: like, assign routing codes to trains because of occupied track, letting the signal set the route, making it sit there with luaatc, then when there is too little, out they go!.
specing: independent56_: use the source, Luke
independent56_: haha
independent56_: i should make some code and publish it
independent56_: on my wiki
independent56_: my pastebin gets status reports every 30 minutes, so it adds up and it is spam.
independent56_: and wikis allow changes to the source
Benrob0329: Krock: It does have Git integration actually, you can give it a Github/Gitlab API key that it will save in local storage and commit upon save..assuming you have write access to the repository.
Krock: @Benrob0329 heh that's pretty cool I guess.. but for wikis I'd really prefer a database rather than a git repo
Krock: unless git is used as database to keep track of changes. hmm...
celeron55: git as a backend to a wiki sounds pretty good actually
rubenwardy: github wikis use git as a backend
Krock: on second thought yes. unusual but good
rubenwardy: it makes a lot of sense for a wiki
Benrob0329: Its just because I can host it for free really :P
* independent56_: laughs in dokuwiki not having a database
Benrob0329: I have a Wiki.js instance though that is gonna be backed to a git repo whenever I get around to actually putting stuff onto it
Benrob0329: Was gonna be a collaborative world building project, but I haven't had much writing inspiration as of late
independent56_: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=proposals:re_railyard
independent56_: ok, there is the source
independent56_: if anyone has any information regarding the ability to see the trains and when to store them, contact me.
independent56_: ha
independent56_: * y5nw is now known as ywang* ywang is now known as y5nw
y5nw: I did that accidentally
y5nw: sorry, connection problem
independent56: aye, i feel ye pain. i had that all the time (hence the rgular timeouts when i was part of  the server)
independent56: oh wait he has gone /_/
y5nw: eh, I'm still here
independent56: could you direct me to some resources about how to build a railyard? i have got some of the luaatc sorted out, but wish o know what the amount of traffic is.
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=proposals:re_railyard this is where the code is hosted.
specing: independent56: join the linux forks server, most of the train experts should be there
independent56: if i wasn't deeply unwelcome there
Jonathon: isnt he still banned from there? 🤔
independent56: perma.
independent56: it was a horrendous decision to project my noony state onto that server.
independent56: but i might as well use an alt to sneak information out.
Jonathon: nothing like telling everyone your comming
independent56: mainly psychological... warfare?
independent56: well, not warfare, just a mean-spirited joke
Jonathon: your one of those people like suchtea where they join on an alt, and just talking reveal themselves
y5nw: ^
independent56: XD yeah, my speaking style is very 56i.
specing: looool
specing: banned for ...?
independent56: wait.. isn't independent56_ is an alt of 56i...
independent56: specing, first a fair reason, then unfair, then fair
Jonathon: according to you
independent56: 2/3 is'nt bad
independent56: /j
specing: lol
independent56: i have a full explenation buried in the wiki
y5nw: Anyway, regarding train counting, you can use the S variable for that
independent56: wdym? can i have a code example?
y5nw: entry: if event.train then S.counter = (S.counter or 0) + 1 end
y5nw: exit: if event.train then S.counter = (S.counter or 1) - 1 end
y5nw: basically a counter should be enough to an extent
independent56: hmm
independent56: does it need to be a global variable?
y5nw: *facepalm*
independent56: so it is a global variable already?
y5nw: Go ahead and read this: http://git.bananach.space/advtrains.git/tree/advtrains_luaautomation/README.md?h=release-2.3.1#n52
independent56: ohhhhh
independent56: i literally did not know that piece of docs have existed.
independent56: im going to class capital letters as bitter medicine.
AntumDeluge: I want to iterate over a group of positions (or nodes) within a certain radius of a player. Would I use vector? For example, I want to populate a radius of 4 around the player with a certain node. How do I iterate over all positions within that radius? I see the method minetest.bulk_set_node, but I still need to find all the positions.
Krock: VManip, then zyx loops and pythagoras range checks if you want a shpere
AntumDeluge: Yes, I do want a sphere. Thanks. I will research that. (now that I think about it more, the mod I forked should already have the answer in it somewhere)
AntumDeluge: Oh, I think I can actually just use minetest.find_nodes_in_area
AntumDeluge: But that will probably give me a cube?
Warr1024: almost everything is cubes by default
Warr1024: if you want a sphere, you can do vector.distance(pos, center) < radius, or if you really want to be perf-optimal and avoid the sqrt, local diff = vector.subtract(pos, center) then vector.dot(diff, diff) < radius^2
Warr1024: If you want to iterate over them in a particular order, like nearest first, then that's a bit more interesting.
erlehmann: if i rename an lbm in a game, will it be run again?
erlehmann: like suppose i had a game
erlehmann: where an lbm ran
erlehmann: than a second one ran in a later version
erlehmann: and i downgraded again
erlehmann: can i rename the old lbm to get it to re-run?
Calinou: is the up-to-date form `minetest.settings:get` or `minetest.setting_get()`?
Calinou: to get a minetest.conf setting
Warr1024: erlehmann, yeah, you probably need a rename, and the rename should work I think?
Warr1024: Calinou, the former format is the current one I believe
Calinou: thanks :)
AntumDeluge: Yes, minetest.settings:get
mmuller: hey, are the mobs mods mostly up-to-date (as in -- run well with each other and latest minetest)?
mmuller: also, and recommendations for good mobs mods?
mmuller: *any
wwar: Well in content db you will find mobs_redo, mobs_animal and mobs_monster in the first pages so they are techincally the best
Jonathon: just because something is first does not mean that it is the best
wwar: Best reviews
Jonathon: in fact mobs redo performance is not that great
wwar: yeah low quality but its api is easy to use, doesnt make laggy mobs
Jonathon: >doesnt make laggy mobs but yet it does
independent56_: i wish mapserver would do more then a map, like telling me if ars is on in a signal, or type of train... just all extra information i need.
independent56_: but you could argue that if i cared that much, i would add the features already.
VanessaE: anyone awake?  I need some help with mod security..
sfan5: hi
VanessaE: I need minetest.get_dir_list() to read from a dir outside of the mod/world dir
VanessaE: I put the mod in secure.trusted_mods, then in the code I requested an insecure environ, local ie=that, then ie.get_dir_list(), but it's blocking access
VanessaE: (I'm preparing a feature for skinsdb)
VanessaE: well, ie.core.get_dir_list() that is
sfan5: the fact that get_dir_list exists in the insecure environment is misleading
VanessaE: oh?
sfan5: you get an insecure environment but the engine methods are always sandboxed
VanessaE: fuck.
sfan5: (unless mod security is disabled wholesale)
sfan5: I have wondered about this in the past but didn't bother to create an issue
sfan5: you could be the one to do it ;)
VanessaE: I'm trying to create a new option in skinsdb such that it can read from a global directory (and another it can write to), which all of my servers would then use
BuckarooBanzai: btw: had the same issue with `minetest.mkdir` (not available in an insecure env)
VanessaE: so wait, is there no way at all then to do this?
sfan5: if you want it to work you can always use os.popen(string.format("ls %q", path))
sfan5: "ls '%q'" actually
VanessaE: I can't guarantee the game would be running on Linux.
VanessaE: unless windows has an 'ls' command :P
sfan5: interestingly "dir" works on both windows and linux
sfan5: but this is the best you get unless the engine issue is solved
sfan5: unless you pull in luafilesystem or something similar, which then leads to other annoyances
* VanessaE: sighs
VanessaE: > =os.popen(string.format("ls '%q'", "/"))
VanessaE: stdin:1: attempt to call field 'popen' (a nil value)
sfan5: io.popen
sfan5: I was thinking of python
VanessaE: oh, io
VanessaE: I should have caught that
VanessaE: hm, no, that's still not right..
VanessaE: > for _,i in pairs(io.popen(string.format("ls %q", "/home"))) do print(i) end
VanessaE: stdin:1: bad argument #1 to 'pairs' (table expected, got userdata)
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
sfan5: it returns a file handle you can read from
VanessaE: ah
VanessaE: > local d=io.popen(string.format("ls %q", "/home"))  while true do l=d:read("*line") if not l then break end print("---"..l) end
VanessaE: bingo.
VanessaE: (the --- just to prove to myself that it's working)
VanessaE: now to see if it works in-game
VanessaE: well it doesn't crash anyway :P
VanessaE: it works :)
VanessaE: thanks!
VanessaE: well getting the list is successful..  now to make it actually WORK. :P
celeron55: maybe it's good that it's not too easy to do insecure things? 8-)
VanessaE: :P
VanessaE: but it seems like there's no way to access an image file that's outside the usual MT dirs and forward it to clients, so I have to copy the "global" files to skinsdb's textures dir at startup anyway :-/
VanessaE: * `minetest.dynamic_add_media(filepath, callback)` ... can this add images from outside the mod/world dir?
VanessaE: hm, probably isn't what I want anyway
celeron55: i don't know, but i'm going to guess you'll have to copy them to the media directory for some reason or another
celeron55: it's a bit iffy to change how all those work for trusted mods just because one out of 1000 wants to do something
* VanessaE: sighs
independent56_: how do i prevent client sqlite errors when two players join my server from the same computer?
VanessaE: is there anywhere other than $modpath/textures that I can dump png files and still have MT find them normally?  maybe in $worldpath?
sfan5: $worldpath/worldmods/dummy/textures
VanessaE: mmh
sfan5: also I think there's some way to have the server read a texturepack folder
VanessaE: that's in the gamepath
VanessaE: I think
VanessaE: I got the "global" feature working well enough to "look" right but it still writes the images to the mod's textures dir and I want to avoid that..
VanessaE: but maybe I can have it mkdir modpath.."/../something_else/textures" like your idea.
Warr1024: Is there a policy on how public the servers on the server list have to be?  Like, are servers that use a whitelist or require a password or invite allowed, or do they have to actually allow some level of real access to the general public?
sfan5: there is not
beanzilla: Sorry to ask a odd question, does anyone know if there's mesecons:redstoneblock in MineClone2?
rubenwardy: #mineclone2 is the IRC channel
beanzilla: Ah, thank you.
basxto: does or did minetest ever work with minecraft assets in any way? (I’m quite sure it didn't)
basxto: there is a site which lists minetest as a minecraft remake, which feels wrong
entuland: can't elaborate about those judgements
entuland: but there is #mineclone2
celeron55: work with?
celeron55: what does that even mean
Warr1024: It works with MC assets if you convert them into a format that MT uses
celeron55: it's never included any, and never has been directly compatible with any, except player skins
Warr1024: In fact that can be said for any other game
basxto: mineclone2 neither uses minecraft assets directly, opposed to projects like openttd, which rebuild the engine (it also remade the assets later)
basxto: but since it's indeed not that defined that well, they supply their own definitions
basxto: > A is a game where the executable and sometimes the assets as well are remade open source. Some of these games aren't exact remakes but evolution of original ones, which were eventually open sourced.
basxto: > A is a game which is very similar to or heavily inspired by a game or series.
basxto: > A game is one which has similar gameplay but is not a clone.
basxto: with that definition mcl could be a remake
basxto: mintest a clone or similar
basxto: though it never felt like there was any focus on minecraft's RPG part
Warr1024: Minetest is a remake of an infiniminer remake.
celeron55: i think most people who mention infiniminer have never even seen it, minecraft definitely isn't a remake of infiniminer
celeron55: rather it's a similar engine
celeron55: the reason infiniminer is important is it's pretty much the first commonly known game to use cubic meter voxels in a first person setting
celeron55: then notch figured out a similar engine will make an interesting creative environment and can be made pseudo-infinite, and then he put zombies in it
celeron55: that basically is what minecraft is to this day
celeron55: it's a bit ironic that people sometimes play competitive games similar to infiniminer inside minecraft
celeron55: or minetest for that matter
Warr1024: I guess my point in mentioning infiniminer is that characterizing MT as "just an MC clone" is about on the level with calling MC an infiniminer clone.
celeron55: by the time minecraft had zombies i came along and figured there's room in this genre for pretty much anything i can be bothered to program and i can make reddit mad by doing it
Warr1024: MT is also similar to infiniminer in that a lot of how it's actually played is rather different from how it was designed to be played :-)
celeron55: back then reddit was where all the cool kids were
celeron55: nowadays it's discord or something
Warr1024: Haha, well, it's where all the kids are, at least. :-D
erlehmann: <celeron55> by the time minecraft had zombies i came along and figured there's room in this genre for pretty much anything i can be bothered to program and i can make reddit mad by doing it
erlehmann: LOL
erlehmann: celeron55 are we the baddies? :D
basxto: now that I looked more at how minecraft does things duo to mcl, I realize that minetest players (2D in a 3D world) were closer to what infiniminer did :D
erlehmann: le reddit rageface
erlehmann: basxto i think fleckenstein is your go-to source for "everything that minecraft can do" btw
GreenXenith: I played Infiminer for a bit, vaguely reminiscent of old versions of CTF
erlehmann: he pretty much says his mineclone2 goal was to religiously clone minecraft, including bugs, even if the minetest engine has to bend backward
basxto: oh damn, I just release that my quotes lacked the most important words xD
basxto: *realize
Warr1024: Okay, I had never even actually seen infiniminer before, just took people's word for its similarities
Warr1024: but now that I see some gameplay footage from it, it's way more similar than I expected
erlehmann: <basxto> mineclone2 neither uses minecraft assets directly, opposed to projects like openttd, which rebuild the engine (it also remade the assets later)
erlehmann: basxto pretty sure you can use minecraft assets though
erlehmann: clamity does i think?
Warr1024: You could use MC assets in any MT game, but (1) you'd probably have to convert them to the right formats, and (2) they can't be distributed bundled.
basxto: I actually thought about trying to create a converter for the free raspberrypi version of minecraft
Warr1024: MT games can only use assets they have permission to, or else they can't redistribute a version that's directly playable without importing assets, so they pretty much all ship with their own.
Warr1024: Minecraft is interesting but if I wanted to play Minecraft then I'd just play my copy of Minecraft.  I imagine a lot has changed in the like 7 years since I last touched it.
basxto: but the textures might not fit, I don't think the models are exactly the same (I honestly don't want them to be)
basxto: warr1024: infiniminer videos always feel like watching a FPS match in a voxel miner world
basxto: +for me
Warr1024: I'd love to see a faithful remake in MT :-)
basxto: and in general you can use comercial assets by either converting them or supporting their file formats directly … the latter is probably more done my foss remake engines
Warr1024: I don't really go much for adaptations/clones of popular titles like MineClone2, but ones of more osbcure games like infiniminer, or ones that are kind of stretching the original vision of the engine like Box World 3D, I like.
erlehmann: basxto, in the tools directiory of mineclone2/mineclonia there is a texture converter
celeron55: an infiniminer remake in minetest would be cool
erlehmann: This is a Python script which converts a resource pack for Minecraft to
erlehmann: a texture pack for Minetest so it can be used with MineClone 2.
erlehmann: Coverage is close to 100%, but it's not quite there yet.
celeron55: of course as has been said CTF is a bit similar but it's not the same
basxto: mineclone2 is what I played most since I switched back from voxelands, but I pretty much just want a well documented game with builtin and well integrated mobs, farming, automatization and lots of generated stuff to explore
Warr1024: Infiniminer looks like a .NET thing so honestly I'm not sure whether I'd actually be able to run it as it is.  The MT engine seems like it'd be a great fit for it, tho.
basxto: I miss vombies and mesecon a bit tbh
basxto: :D
rubenwardy: I don't really play or enjoy FPS games, and I think CTF makes that evident
erlehmann: vombies?
basxto: dunno if they are still a thing
rubenwardy: well, the base design that is - now that I no longer dev it, presumably it's gotten better \o/
Warr1024: ruben: if you like to develop games but not play the games you develop, then the MT scene is right for you :-D
basxto: was probably one of the first mob mods
Warr1024: I have noticed that the things I enjoy the most are the things I CAN'T create for myself.
basxto: I don't remember if they were supposed to be zombies or vampires, they were at least badly drawn and nobody could tell
Warr1024: It is, after all, hard to find surprises in a thing you made yourself.
Warr1024: Games with a ton of emergent mechanics are a bit of an exception to that, at least, though.
basxto: your procgen just isn't good enough :D
Warr1024: I don't find procgen that exciting though.
Warr1024: Like what surprises me isn't so much fancy mapgen stuff, as it is when a player discovers some new mechanic or trick I wouldn't have thought of.
basxto: vombies are from Animals Modpack https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=629
basxto: even supports minetest 0.4.13
basxto: warr1024: and yes, infiniminer is c# and it was dropped because it's sourcecode was decompiled, it's not really a finished game
basxto: it's fully open sourced, but all textures are in .psd format D:
celeron55: it's a weird choice to drop a game because its source code was decompiled with debug symbols
celeron55: you don't really lose anything in that if you keep developing it further, soon enough it'll deviate a lot from what was decompiled
Warr1024: I mean maybe there were some deeply embarrassing variable names or something
celeron55: i don't think so
Warr1024: I guess I can't comment because I don't really understand decompilation anyway.  Like, that sort of implies that they were distributing binaries only and not source, and that alone boggles.
celeron55: well of course it was binary only like most games
celeron55: some people see leaking source code like someone seeing you pants down
celeron55: altough i guess that's not as bad either as some people think
Warr1024: We're open-source folks, we don't wear pants.
celeron55: the pants down thing i mean
Warr1024: Can't be caught with your pants around your ankles if you make sure to stay well away from pants in general.
basxto: > Hackers modified the code to make mods, but also started making clients that would target vulnerabilities in the game as well as build incompatible game forks that fragmented its user base. Barth, who was making the game for free, then lost interest and dropped the project, as development of the game had become too difficult.
basxto: that's what wikipedia says
Warr1024: MT's got its fair share of hack clients and forks and such, but I don't think those things have really affected it so much though.
Benrob0329: A swift swing of the ban hammer is usually enough with casual cheaters
Warr1024: Like, interest waxes and wanes and there is some turnover in active contributors, but I think that's mostly just natural cycles stuff?
Warr1024: I don't usually bother punishing cheaters on my server.  We mostly just laugh at them until they go away.
Benrob0329: Also, exposing vulnerabilities that were going to be uncovered anyways seems like it just does some of the work for you in finding them
Benrob0329: Fragmenting the userbase sounds like a greater issue, but then if they're willing to bail so quickly how good of a job were you really doing...
Warr1024: Yeah, I mean, if you ask me how many people play my game, I'd have to ask what level of engagement is the proper standard.
basxto: well, he made other games after it
basxto: or that studio
basxto: spacechem, shenzhen I/O, opus magnum, nfinifactory (infiniminer+spacechem, somewhat)
basxto: mhm … exile is more frustrating than fun
Warr1024: It seems like there's a whole "infini-" ecosystem, like maybe they reused enginy parts of the games for other things using similar tech but different play styles.
Warr1024: I thought the "hardcore survival" aspects of Exile were too literal for my tastes.
Warr1024: In practice I spent a lot of my play time in that game laying in bed trying to conserve hydration so that I could weather a long drought with as little dying and walking back home from spawn as possible.
Warr1024: When I decided to make a hardcore survival game I decided not to put dying in it :-D
Warr1024: (more accurately I ended up removing death later, but either way it's gone)
Jordach: you can't mention a zachtronics game without mentioning TIS-100
Warr1024: If we were to make an infiniminer remake in MT I feel like "finiminer" would be a good name for it, to highlight how everyone seems to complain all the time about the 62km map size limit.
basxto: I’m taking damage and don't understand why :D, I hope it gets easier once I understand how to get the basic things
basxto: and dunno, I rather program real assembler and run it on my gameboy
basxto: people complain about the map size?
basxto: so far the map seemed quit big to me
Warr1024: you're probably taking damage in Exile because the homeostasis of your body is entirely the player's responsibility.  You need to keep fed and hydrated, regulate your body temperature, etc.
Warr1024: Apparently there are people who play minetest by getting on a server and just walking, and I suppose assume they should have to walk for hours on end to find a spot to settle
basxto: maybe it was temp, thirst wasn't at 0%
Warr1024: Hypothermia and heatstroke can both kill you in exile, and a lot of things like rain and furnaces and shelter can impact your exposure to heat/cold.
basxto: I drove a bit around by boat to explore a bit of our map
basxto: that took hours
Warr1024: Personally I tend to limit map size pretty tightly, unless there are enough players that it starts to feel crowded.  I don't want to keep eating up disk space to store just plain mapgenned terrain that players haven't even developed, and I keep rotated backups and such too.
Warr1024: It's really sad when a server just ghosts and leaves no backups or snapshots or continuity plan and players just loose their work and their community.  I require players to CC0-license anything they build on my server so that anyone can pull snapshots anytime, and there's no risk that we'll just lose funding to run it and everyone will lose their year-long projects.
basxto: you certainly don't want me as a player
basxto: I probably discovered 90% of our map :D
basxto: and looted everything I found on my way
basxto: but walking for a bit before settling is important, there should be nobody around
basxto: I’m already annoyed that others can see my name from afar
basxto: they can just run or dig to where I am -.-
Warr1024: Looting is not allowed on most of the NodeCore servers out there, but the way nametags are handled in the game is designed to handle a mix of coop and anarchy play.
Warr1024: You can't see a player's nametag unless you can see their face up close enough, so they don't show through stuff
Warr1024: but you can learn to recognize a player by clothing color, if you spot them at a distance
basxto: I’m talking about generated structures
Warr1024: ah, yeah, dungeon loot is actually still pretty new in nodecore
basxto: mcl has more
basxto: there are mineshafts and villages
Warr1024: yeah, the original MC went hog-wild with prefab structures and MCL pretty much had to match
basxto: tbh it makes exploring more fun
basxto: I don't know what I would do if somebody dug into my base
basxto: I know all the people on the server, but killing and looting them would be well deserved
basxto: is that normal mintest behavior or a nodecore modification that you can see players only if the are clone neough?
independent56_: get the areas mod, to protect your base.
independent56_: unless it is anarchy
independent56_: or unallowed
independent56_: i hate data loss. i lost all my documents from pre-2020 because of a mistkaed disk format. but it had all sorts of edgy in it, so i dont really mourn the loss that much. the docuents i keep now are much more numerous and harder to backup.
independent56_: i just found out that clapham junction is a thing that exists... wow!
independent56_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccG2nKn-zgs
basxto: I don't run the server
independent56_: night is annoying, and i dont want to disable the cycle. can i make night as bright as daytime, and if so, how?
Noisytoot: independent56_: What's the difference between night and day if the brightness is the same?
independent56_: the sky. i want to see nighttime, maybe i add a small handicap to the brightness at night, but it will be livable darkness.
basxto: fullmoon :D
independent56_: XD
independent56_: i want to be at that point where you can build, but it is uncomfortable to live without lighting.
independent56_: tfw your long cargo train takes 3 track sections
Warr1024: "...normal mintest behavior or a nodecore modification..." it's nodecore, but there's also https://gitlab.com/Kimapr/mtg_player_names
independent56_: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=proposals:fartown
independent56_: does my luaatc code look like it needs extra? (ignor the indentation)
independent56_: goodnight, will check logs tomorrow.
Warr1024: "fartown" sounds like an area protection system based on flatulence.
independent56_: i wish to remove a large part of the map, bits wich take up mapserver space, despite being useless. i will use the command "//multi //fixedpos set1 -2000,500,500 //fixedpos set2 -30000,-500,-500 //deleteblocks". can worldedit deal with such large areas without breaking?
BuckarooBanzai: i don't think so, it grinds to a halt for me with much lower values :/
independent56_: sad
independent56_: what if i did it on a remote server, ran through SSH? what if i left during the command, leaving it to do porcessing on it's own?
independent56_: ok...
independent56_: it works! it is doing it, when i ran mapserver and locked the database, it was hard at work delteing  blocks. but there is too many for too little. so i shutdown the server and decided to live with these ugly appendages
independent56_: BuckarooBanzai: do incremental renders have the same time as inital ones? do incrementel renders take up as much time as the inital ones?
BuckarooBanzai: independent56_: nope the incremental renderings just render the changed mapblocks, should only be a handful every couple seconds
independent56_: ah yes
independent56_: i set it to 3 hours in fear of a big render
independent56_: and now i can run them both together now the inital render completed (after 3 days)
independent56_: but now it says "021-06-24 13:19:38: ERROR[CurlFetch]: http://127.0.0.1:8080/api/minetest not found (HTTP response code said error) (response code 403)" even though the keys match.
independent56_: BuckarooBanzai please help me regarding my last IRC message. this bug is preventing me from achiving junction map superheaven.
independent56_: is there any debug option to see mapblock borders? i want to recover a deleted mountain, but am unsure if it will hurt a small dam.
independent56_: BuckarooBanzai, i get this error "2021-06-24 15:40:18: ERROR[CurlFetch]: http://127.0.0.1:8080/api/minetest not found (HTTP response code said error) (response code 403)". i am unable to get live statistics for my map, because of this api error.
independent56_: and the map is running.
entuland: you should be able to work out the boundaries from the coordinates
entuland: I also think I read somewhere that they added the ability to see such boundaries in one of the latest dev versions? not sure
independent56_: seriously, fuck rubberbanding. it is annoying and gives the illusion of not going anywherer
Warr1024: There is a feature in 5.5-dev to display mapblock boundaries
Warr1024: there's a new keybind to toggle it; it doesn't seem to have a default binding, but set it to whatever
GreenXenith: I dont have a "whatever" key /s
Jonathon: You actually mean screw anticheat that rubberbands you
Warr1024: Green: it should be between Panic and Any
GreenXenith: I actually used to have a panic key
GreenXenith: I replaced my escape key with a red key with "PANIC" printed on it
independent56_: config error caused mapserver broke. it should be in the working directory. it wasn't.
independent56_: yes! yay! the API is working! whoo!
erlehmann: independent56_ disable anticheat or use proper physics factors
independent56_: hmm
independent56_: what minetest conf is that?
independent56_: how do i edit sunset/rise times? i have this mod which syncs to real time,  but it is bright day out here and twilight inside
Krock: use the day/night ratio
Warr1024: I think the in-game sun's position based on in-game time of day is hard-coded and not changeable.  If you want all solar observations in-game to match real-world, then you'd probably have to use a non-linear function to map realtime to gametime.
Warr1024: Day/night ratio ... does that move the sun too?  I've never actually used it without a custom skybox...
independent56_: hmm thx
celeron55: 17:37:21 < independent56_> is there any debug option to see mapblock borders? i want to recover a deleted mountain, but am unsure if it will hurt a small dam.
celeron55: you probably didn't find this given it's not documented anywhere except the source code
celeron55: the setting is called keymap_toggle_block_bounds
celeron55: add it like any other keymap_ setting in minetest.conf
sofar: maybe one day we can make the sun position dependent on the player position North/South relative to 0
celeron55: (for example keymap_toggle_block_bounds = KEY_KEY_O)
independent56_: i would like to change it in-game, like "v" for map, as a keybind. so i can see the mapblocks for a few seconds then disable them.
Warr1024: re: sun position, it would be nicer to have it controllable by mod via set_sky ... and even nicer if the shadow shader could then be aware of sun position instead of just assuming it based on time of day
celeron55: independent56_: yes that'll set it to "o"
independent56_: great :->
Warr1024: I had to do some mildly ugly stuff to disable the shadow shader server-side for a game that has no sun/moon.
celeron55: but you do need to have a development build
celeron55: it was added after 5.5.0
Warr1024: in 5.5 you can just set it in the keybind menu
wwar: Hmm.. shadow shader thing has no on/off option?
independent56_: aye, i need a dev build, but i'm too lazy to install it.
Warr1024: wwar: only on the client side, not on the server
wwar: I see
celeron55: oh wait, it is in the menu
celeron55: well that's easy then
wwar: Anyway, i will have maximum 5 fps with shadows..
celeron55: of course it has, on the first settings page
Warr1024: wwar: if your performance sucks with shadows enabled then you'd be likely to turn them off anyway.  But for someone whose performance with shadows on is fine, they'd probably just leave it on ... but playing on a server with no sun but still having shadows from the sun would look silly.
Warr1024: Thus it's nice to be able to at least work around them, even if we can't remotely switch them off.
wwar: Silly and even if you have good performance, it will cause fps drop, so you lose fps to make the game look silly
Warr1024: Telling a player "go log off and change these settings and then come back so things don't look silly or not work right" is not a good experience and I've been trying to find ways to fix those as I encounter them.
wwar: Also yeah, my performance suck
Warr1024: I've been able to leave shadows set to Very Low and not notice any performance impacts at least.
wwar: Well, evey mt setting require people to relog to change, dont they?
celeron55: hecks wanted to make the server be able to switch off shadows but he hasn't made a PR yet
wwar: Every*
Warr1024: Not every setting, but easily arguably too many.
wwar: I believe reloging to change shadow isnt too hard if thats what you mean with > Telling a player "go log off and change these settings and then come back so things don't look silly or not work right..
Warr1024: I'd really love to be able to switch texture-packs in-game, even if it means I have to go through an "initializing nodes" progress screen again and destroy and recreate the 3D scene ... at least, so that I can stay connected and still receive chat messages when the display comes back...
Warr1024: Relogging to change a thing isn't hard, it's just lousy UX
independent56_: i can't wait until 5.6 is released. obvious reasons (my number)
independent56_: oh and also, it will have all the features of 5, but with some mystery ones from 6.
wwar: Warr, cant you disable shadows in default of nodecore?
wwar: Independet56, what if mt 5.6 turns out a bad version? :þ
sfan5: he can't, it's a client side feature
Warr1024: I have no say in what shaders are run.  I can only use some tricks in some cases to make them not have an effect on the visuals.
Warr1024: At least the parallax and generate normals stuff is gone :-)
wwar: Hmm.. i think it will be pretty helpful if server owners can manage client side stuff for their players in their servers
independent56_: if it turned out fowl, i would cry. my dreams would be spoilt.
Warr1024: Server owners and/or game creators should really have a lot of control over at least the default way the games are experienced.  Player override of most in-game stuff should only be for things like accessibility needs (which arguably game-creators should be responsible for too).  A problem in MT is the way these things are put either solely in the player's control or designed in such a way that it's too easy for players to accidentally
MTDiscord: set overrides without experiencing the game as designed first.
hecks: Toggling shadows without relogging is being worked on and will be included in 5.6, together with server side control.
wwar: I agree with that ^
hecks: I'm writing the shader variant feature as we speak (a little complicated but necessary; we need to compile shaders both with shadows off and on, and swap the shader program out)
Warr1024: PR #9315 is an example of the kind of gameplay thing that pretty obviously should start in game-creator control and be controlled by players only as an override.  That one is setting at like 1.5 approvals though...
hecks: and the other hard part is that MT currently assumes shaders on nodes and objects don't change ever
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9315 -- Require 'basic_debug' priv to view gameplay-relevant debug info (2nd try), require 'debug' priv to view wireframe by Wuzzy2
wwar: That will also help in stoping cheaty csms i think
wwar: That the server/game owners will be able to manage client side stuff even if not full access
hecks: I just obfuscate any strings sent to the client, like definitions or meta.
Warr1024: I don't mind it being possible to cheat, I just want to see it require actual effort.
wwar: Well, but decreasing cheats in that way (if it does) will be helpful to every server or game with the rule "no cheating/hacking"
Warr1024: sfan5, IIRC you were there for the last discussion of 9315 (that I'm aware of at least), did you want to weigh in on it?
wwar: Personally, i dont think that basic_debug thing should be something in default.. maybe a mode that adds that? I mean if a server owners wants debug info to be hidden from people thats something they must add a mode for..
wwar: Owner*
celeron55: i believe 9315 is ready to merge
celeron55: need to check the code still maybe
Warr1024: I checked it over and insofar as I am qualified to judge, everything looked good to me: code, testing, etc.
celeron55: the code looks good to me
Warr1024: I just didn't want to be the one in the hot seat to put my name on the merge; I was hoping for something a little less hotly-debated as a first action as core dev...
hecks: this is why we need the developer covenant or whatever
hecks: or rather modder
hecks: we need to define what is an acceptable burden on modders to upgrade the engine version
hecks: (do not confuse with the awful linux CoC)
hecks: basically we should promise the modders we won't break anything without an opt-out and said opt-out should take like a minute to patch in
hecks: in this case the workaround is to just grant people the new priv on register, seems reasonable
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Require 'basic_debug' priv to view gameplay-relevant debug info, requ… 1363fc728 https://git.io/JnFRN (152021-06-24T18:21:19Z)
celeron55: i wonder what was the last time i actually merged anything
celeron55: usually someone jumps to do it once i mention something is mergeable
celeron55: .
celeron55: -.
Warr1024: I wouldn't mind publishing like a mod or something to help server operators more easily and automatically handle the opt-out of this thing, too.  Like something that just grants basic_debug priv to everyone when they join or something, for server operators who don't feel technically-inclined enough to do it themselves.
Warr1024: I don't know how big of a problem I should expect it to be, I guess?  This could also be handled in MTG, and I would think that if MTG considers this a "regression" that would be sufficient to cut through the permafreeze.
wwar: they can just add basic_debug priv in basic_privs
wwar: Will still gonna grant every player who already registered to the game
Warr1024: you mean default_privs
Warr1024: basic_privs are the ones that sub-admin moderators can control
Warr1024: and the granting to existing players upon join was what I was thinking of the mod for.
wwar: Oops default privs yes
wwar: Also dont default privs and basic privs change with the same cmd
Warr1024: they're separate settings but they're used for different things, and there's no reason why they would be in sync necessarily
Warr1024: though arguably it might make sense that default_privs be a subset of basic_privs so your moderators have the ability to strip a new player of ALL privs...
specing: I was pleased to learn that WorldEdit is AGPLv3
ghoti: Heya. When programming a basic_robot, is there a way to stop processing for the current cycle without doing a self.remove() ?  I'm looking for the sort of thing you get by issuing a "return" in the middle of a function in other languages.
ghoti: i.e. forget about any look or `if` we happen to be in, just bail.
ghoti: s/look/loop/
independent56: http://192.168.1.119:8080/#!/map/0/9/229/-433
independent56: why wont anything south of spawn exist?
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/Gz67bD9
independent56: here is a screenshot. use that link. not the interactive. it will probably break.
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/htdocs/view/865e6ea1
independent56: this happens when i try to run with mapserver enabled
independent56: i'll try without..?
independent56: yeah, mapserver is disabled
independent56: enabled now... and...
independent56: now it waits, without continuing at "created bridge.. mapserver ok"
independent56: done
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/htdocs/view/17f11770
independent56: and it still crashes and burns
independent56: ha, turns out inital rendering was locking the database!
independent56: how do i emplace limits on how far the map render travels in each direction? there is noting noth of 100, and a huge settlement south at 5000. i would like to include only the areas wich matter.
independent56: using mapserver
independent56: BuckarooBanzai, i am unable to run the mapserver and mtserver at the same time. the mapserver locks the database, whilst the mtserver crashes because of this lock. do i have to go trough the pain of inital rendering before i can run both?
independent56: yay, it has rendered the analite mountains!
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=human_areas:analite_mountains_map.png
independent56: i am very happy
independent56: "| is now known as /" "/ is now known as -" "- is no known as \"
independent56: i know how this works
|: yeah I'm just rotatin'
independent56: XD
independent56: ok... now the server is connected with ethernet to the router. there should be much higher speeds
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Rework Settings to support arbitrary hierarchies (#11352) 13c60a146 https://git.io/JnHcw (152021-06-23T13:22:31Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Perform some quality assurance for translation strings (#11375) 1351bf4a6 https://git.io/JnQvV (152021-06-23T16:35:50Z)
Wuzzy: name me one random thing in Minetest that is hardcoded but really shouldn't be
rubenwardy: poor performance
ghoti: :-D
independent56: hmm... probably all the formspec co-ords in mods, where cross-platform on tiny devices can cause eye cancer
independent56: it should be relative
independent56: but i'm no nerd in mt mod develepoment.
GreenXenith: GUIs in general, including game menus, world handling, player physics, camera control, keybind handling, mesh manipulation (or lack thereof)
Krock: name me one random thing in MInetest that really should be hardcoded but isn't
Krock: mod security. should be forced to `true`
Benrob0329: Playing a Rickroll at a random interval between 5 minutes and 1 century.
Krock: ah yes
Benrob0329: also no, disabling mod security is sometimes useful when testing things (like when running a profiler inside of other code that requires access to debug)
Benrob0329: If you're running code you're familiar with then it's fine, it's mostly there to stop attacks from downloaded code
sfan5: Wuzzy: camera
Wuzzy: good one!
sfan5: at the very least the server should be able to disable first or third person
sfan5: and it should be able to lock the camera at a certain angle or distance
sfan5: for RTS games
GreenXenith: also camera roll
Benrob0329: Mapgen types? imo games should be defining mapgens, the engine should just give enough pieces to do it performantly
GreenXenith: Games can already define C mapgens, its just not quite as performant because of the Lua interface
GreenXenith: also requires some extra work for cross-platform
Benrob0329: I'm not talking Lua vs C++, just enough API bits (and probably a separate context) for lua mapgens to run well (they can already do pretty well if written smartly)
GreenXenith: I was only mentioning C mapgens because it is performant
Benrob0329: dangit discord, I wanted to send that s/context/thread or instance message
Benrob0329: I feel like interfacing with glue code would be a bigger bottleneck than just writing it in Lua right now
Benrob0329: LVMs aren't exactly slow
Wuzzy: https://dev.minetest.net/List_of_hardcoded_features
independent56: oh and also, biggest stress is the advtrains speed is hardcoded. i want 50 n/s trains, zooming across my fair landscape. 20 n/s trains in a world where you walk 10 n/s is too little. (yes, i set my speed high, because we all ave places to go)
Warr1024: heh, 50n/s is relativistic speeds in MT terms
Warr1024: you're pushing the limits of mapblock loading speed
independent56: XD my fast fly is 100 n/s.
independent56: and mapblock loading on local is quick, even on fast. it's on network that gets annoying.
Warr1024: You're running the risk of "the server's background cleanup job kicked off and now suddenly your train collides with a wall of ignores"
independent56: XD
Warr1024: you can already do this in most games because falling speed is not capped
independent56: advtrains works in unloaded areas. but still, fair point.
Warr1024: (most MT games)
Warr1024: well, even if the trains work fine in unloaded areas, that landscape has gotta look weird when you look out the window and see nothing
Warr1024: ...and the fact that the advtrains devs had to go to such lengths to work around the problem also speaks a lot itself.
independent56: hmm... but i do wish. maybe a compromise at 30 n/s?
Benrob0329: forceloading tracks also works, but will take up more and more memory
Benrob0329: you could also emerge the areas ahead of the train and slow it's acceleration until they are loaded
Warr1024: Sadly there is no "safe speed."  What speed is considered "relativistic" just depends on the server's "weather"
Warr1024: tbh advtrains' workaround sounds like one of the least bad ones possible
Warr1024: One other alternative being allowing the train to hit the wall of ignores and stop, but keeping track of its speed so it can resume moving as soon as the terrain loads.
independent56: imagine LF, with tracks everywhere. they cant do that. otherwise the entire network would break down. so they have to use their own unloaded map train runner (UMTR (OOMTUURR))
Pexin: bump for nonhardcoded camera: also player controls. thinking zelda-like camera/movement
Warr1024: I'd like to see more of the player's movement behavior less hard-coded, or at least more thoroughly parameterized so it can be more easily controlled by mods.  Things like air resistance, variable buoyancy, etc.
Warr1024: Heh, being able to push a "display gamma adjust" from the server-side at play time, so you can simulate eyes adjusting to darkness, would be nice, but I may try to research that one on my own before I make an issue of it, to make sure it's even reasonably feasible.
erlehmann: Wuzzy sfan5 you can get freecam from dragonfire or waspsaliva i think
erlehmann: i was also missing it!
erlehmann: i bet fleckenstein could work some API out
erlehmann: that guy LOVES APIs
erlehmann: like a floating camera API
sfan5: "freecam" sounds like less restrictions not more
erlehmann: sfan5 well what if you slapped some restrictions on it so the server could tell the client the freecam settings
erlehmann: currently they are controlled by the client ofc
Warr1024: The amount of freedom a player should have over the camera is a thing that can only really be determined in the context of a game.  Being able to move a camera about freely could have gameplay effects and a game creator needs to be able to define what the limits are so that they can design gameplay to work with what a player can actually do...
erlehmann: what i am suggesting is to take the freecam code and make it so only the server can set it, like FOV
erlehmann: then you could have stuff like the cam rotating around a character
erlehmann: controlled by a mod
Pexin: note: narrow fov contributes to severe motion sickness in some people. twiddles thumbs verbally.
Pexin: to use mt, I personally need to up it to ..what was it, 110 I think
* Pexin: checks, 100
Warr1024: It's very easy for games as it is to make decisions that cause all kinds of accessibility problems, and it's the game creators' responsibility to take these considerations into account, and if they won't or can't then they probably deserve to lose access to certain audiences.
Warr1024: There are limits to what the engine can do to prevent game creators from shooting themselves in the foot by shooting their audiences in the foot...
Warr1024: btw, high FOV would look much nicer for more folks if we had a barrel distortion shader :-)
erlehmann: i use a custom hack client with halfbright because i can not see contrast as well
erlehmann: the only side effect is i forget to place torches
erlehmann: i should probably tune the halfbright so that 0 is still dark and 1 is like 7 or so
Warr1024: you mean the gamma adjust isn't sufficient for you?
erlehmann: gamma adjust is something *entirely* different
erlehmann: i only want to affect blocks in game
erlehmann: nodes i mean
Warr1024: I think if you tune gamma all the way up to 3 then basically everything that's not pure black becomes full bright...
Warr1024: ah, interesting...
wwar: There is light curve boost, low/high gradient settings
wwar: If you set these all to max lighting will look silly but you will see every light source
independent56_: testing znc
independent56: yay!
Jordach: >sees wuzzy's PR leaving hell
Jordach: wuzzy is a free elf
VanessaE: which hell is that? :P
Jordach: paramat's PR hell
Warr1024: The feature is nice ... sadly, it will be disabled in NC as well, if I get the option, because I already have an in-gameplay alternative :-)
independent56: https://raildar.co.uk/map/ i think the advtrains would like this. i want to build something like this for my world, but then that's effort.
independent56: s/the advtrains/the advtrains people/
independent56: it's a map of how the british rail network connects together. with signals, switches, and stations all there.
independent56: and live trains
BuckarooBanzai: independent56: https://i.imgur.com/xgtA9hH.png
independent56: oh god yeah... mapserver... i was about to install it... but then i had to do the dishwasher
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/WajNtlO
independent56: i have the docs right there
independent56: should i get the go or java version?
independent56: BuckarooBanzai
BuckarooBanzai: java version isn't maintained anymore
BuckarooBanzai: go is the way to go ;)
independent56: XD haha, will do!
independent56: what about the tile server? what does that do?
sfan5: serve tiles
BuckarooBanzai: tileserver _is_ the java version :P
independent56: ah, thanks
independent56: so... i have to compile the 32 bit linux version myself?
BuckarooBanzai: heh, i just removed the plain x86 versions yesterday :D
BuckarooBanzai: i think there should an older 32bit download
BuckarooBanzai: *should be
independent56: from an earlier version? if so, i might as well compile myself.
BuckarooBanzai: v4.2 is not that old, still has most of the features
independent56: yay!
BuckarooBanzai: why do you still have a 32bit system? Whats your hardware?
independent56: wait... so x86 is the same as i867? or x32?
independent56: and i still have 32 bit because of "old webbook from 2009"
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=server
BuckarooBanzai: x86_64 == 64bit / x86 == 32bit (in that case)
independent56: there is the specs
independent56: haha i am so stupid
independent56: i never knew installation was that easy
independent56: anyways, next question  - is it automatically public? let me try!
BuckarooBanzai: depends on your setup, you might have to forward the http port
independent56: yay, terminal is now running
BuckarooBanzai: this question may be too late, but still: you do have backups in case something goes wrong?
independent56: omg yay!
independent56: and yes, i copied the world from multiplyaer-5 to multiplayer-6, and am running the server on multiplayer-6
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/QvnGtcR
independent56: one slight problem
* BuckarooBanzai: looks at the browser and hides
independent56: "INFO[0001] Starting initial rendering job " was the last thing my terminal said. it is now waiting around.
independent56: probably that
BuckarooBanzai: it might take a while, depending on your setup (database-type, size, etc)
BuckarooBanzai: some background infos on how it works: https://github.com/minetest-mapserver/mapserver/blob/master/doc/incrementalrendering.md
independent56: hmm
independent56: well, i will just sit and wait
BuckarooBanzai: also watch your disk size, the change in the database might consume a lot of additional space (added mtime column)
BuckarooBanzai: *temporarily
independent56: oh no,... i need to check
independent56: ran upstairs, 11 GB free. deleting old backups
independent56: https://pastebin.com/a3hFbD5L
independent56: here... it has been taking ages
independent56: 4% inital rendering.
independent56: taking the fact it took ~4 minutes to advance by %1, then i have 40 minutes. i am at %8.
independent56: 25%
MrB_: hey guys im looking for a way to use custom game and mod paths fo minetest from the command line. Like the worldname command but for the mod path lol
independent56: try editing world.mt. it wont help witht he paths, but will give you custom mods.
sfan5: you can put mods into <word path>/worldmods/
MrB_: im hoping to be able to just set a mod path for inclusion like for example --modpath=~/mods
independent56: make an issue request on the github
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Document hypertext escaping (#11374) 13b5c09ad https://git.io/JnDv1 (152021-06-22T12:42:40Z)
MrB_: good idea independant56
MrB_: ty sfan5 :)
Calinou: I created a new mod and enabled it, but its init.lua file isn't running and I have no idea why
Calinou: https://0x0.st/-96b.zip
Calinou: starting singleplayer from a terminal, I'm not seeing any prints from the mod
Calinou: the mod has a mod.conf file, I also tried adding an empty depends.txt file but that shouldn't be necessary (the `gauges` mod doesn't have any)
sfan5: --verbose will log mods as they are run
rubenwardy: looks fine to me - sure you're enabled it?
rubenwardy: try opening the config again
rubenwardy: it might have disabled itself, this happens when it's installed multiple times
independent56: update: 38% on rendering. it has taken 3 hours
independent56: ok... BuckarooBanzai, if i tried to run the render on my computer instead of the server, will i experience any migration problems? i will just transfer the world.
Calinou: I checked the Select Mods menu and the mod name is green. I tried disabling it and enabling it again, still does nothing
Calinou: --verbose makes it almost impossible to read the log, but I went through it and didn't see references to any mods
Calinou: (I have other mods loaded like moreblocks)
Calinou: I'm on 5.5.0-dev with latest minetest_game
celeron55: i did that and it runs
celeron55: altough, it doesn't seem to work as intended
celeron55: it just prints the "Loaded." message and then nothing
celeron55: something like "if player:get_wielded_item():get_count() == 0 then" works
celeron55: well of course, the wielded item is the "" item when it's nothing, that's the "hand"
Calinou: ah, right
Calinou: I created a new world and enabled the mod, still no dice
Calinou: wait, I can see the message
Calinou: it's above the minetest ASCII art, so I didn't notice it ._.
celeron55: mods start quite early in the server process
celeron55: they start before much of the server initialization so that they can register all the stuff before anything happens
Calinou: anyway, thanks, I can work on the autosprint mod now :)
celeron55: it might make sense to move the ascii art upwards though
celeron55: you can't be the only one not noticing mod messages because of it
drummyfish: hey guys
rubenwardy: loool
drummyfish: I am a noob and need an advice: when I join a server, the chat is a huge mess, I hear players from the whole server. Do I need to install some chat mods?
Benrob0329: [off] log test
Benrob0329: Nope, that doesn't work at all
independent56: that's because you ave that <name> thing in front
independent56: and anywyas, you were heard by my good friend logger56.
Benrob0329: I hope you don't post those logs anywhere, that'd probably be in violation of channel policy if it doesn't mind [off]
independent56: 0_0 ok.
independent56: is it ok if it is hidden from public eyes in the deep web (unlisted), or if that's not ok, can it be hosted online, on a password-protected place, like google drive?
independent56: and i mean, scenario 2 applies if you know my ssh password, username, and i have enabled ssh port forwarding (like if i went outside for a long period of time)
celeron55: personal logs are always fine, but you can't publish them
celeron55: equivalent to logging being enabled on your client and the logs being stored only on your disk
Jordach: i use thelounge client for a similar purpose
Jordach: it works on all my damn devices and i only need to use VPN to gain access behind my firewall
Warr1024: TheLounge is also what I use for IRC, though I don't lurk in most channels because I'm already there on Discord bridges and Matrix...
Warr1024: Pretty basic as far a scripting, automation, or configurability goes, but the multi-device and mobile experiences are quite good.
independent56: 1.6 K mb of map.sqlite
independent56: my server is seriously out of hand
Krock: Kelvin milli bits ?
erlehmann: hey does minetest have sound packs?
rubenwardy: You can install a single sound pack by placing it at sounds/
celeron55: it hasn't really developed into something people do so support isn't very elaborate
celeron55: not many have sound effects as a hobby
rubenwardy: Yeah
rubenwardy: It would be worth changing texture packs into media packs
rubenwardy: There's probably an issue for that™
celeron55: i'd first like to see a sound pack worth installing
celeron55: if there are none, then the one place is already one more than is needed
rubenwardy: Oh sure
rubenwardy: This is similar to my thoughts on a shader API
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Server: Ignore whitespace-only chat messages 13a8b7c8f https://git.io/JnyTi (152021-06-22T17:47:18Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04juozaspo -> 03minetest/minetest: Buildbot: Use posix on Win64 builds if available (#11355) 13cec0dfc https://git.io/JnykU (152021-06-22T17:59:09Z)
dlKerxYgIPnw: join fr3Enod3 5IDe, wE haVE CO0K13s&frE3 bn(
independent56: yay gone!
independent56: "join libera side, we have cookies and bins"
independent56: yay, i did it on my main and mapserver runs... just not in the slow lowlands.
independent56: eh, it's not finished
independent56: oh god.... none of the slow lowlands appears
independent56: well... i guess i need to check if the slow lowlands exists on the server.
rubenwardy: Cookies and white supremacists
independent56: please confirm that you have shunned thiojoe before continuing
independent56: wait what
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/jfUA5O0
independent56: anyways, i need mapserver...but what do i boot first?
independent56: the mtserver or the mapserver?
independent56: well, crap, mapserver broke. i can't access in browser.
independent56: just found out -debug exists, hope it will work.
independent56: ERR_SSL_PROTOCOL_ERROR is what i'm getting in the browser
Hawk777: Are you connecting to the mapserver via HTTPS when you should be connecting with HTTP, possibly? (totally random guess, I have no idea how it is supposed to work)
independent56: oh god!
independent56: tfw you get one character incorrect
euphoria: Hello there
VanessaE: anyone here good with advtrains?
specing: with code or use?
VanessaE: use
VanessaE: a few of us on my Traintable server were playing around, and started a descending tunnel, starting at +2.5m and going down at a rate of 1 in 3 meters, the longest slopes advtrains has.  but if you place a wagon on the tracks at the top of the slope and accelerate forward, it stops at the slope, it won't descend.
VanessaE: https://imgur.com/wL5G3Q4.png
VanessaE: the displays inside the wagon, if I read it right, indicate that it thinks the track ends at the slope
specing: Maybe ask on LINUXFORKS?
VanessaE: oh, and if I place the wagon ON the slope, it sees there's another 65m of track, and it'll go down just fine.
VanessaE: linuxforks?  not familiar with that
VanessaE: I guess you mean https://bugs.linux-forks.de/advtrains/
VanessaE: I was just gonna ask on the forum thread
specing: yeah the train autism server
IhrFussel: I'd like to ask in here also: Why is someone in the forum allowed to create a thread with very bold claims that could be super damaging to a particular MT server WITHOUT having even a tiny bit of evidence??
IhrFussel: So far all they do is trying to sell their own point of view as facts and I as the server owner have to watch how that happens....this doesn't feel right
celeron55: so from now on every thread has to go through you before it can be posted?
celeron55: come on, link the thread and explain
\: no that would be too logical
\: we have to fight vague claims with more vague claims
IhrFussel: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26895
celeron55: that the
\: lol that thread is quite a read
IhrFussel: I told you the subject is damaging
celeron55: this makes no sense to me, i'm moving it to trash
celeron55: if another moderator finds it worth being public them move it back
celeron55: i think if someone wants to create a thread like that, it absolutely has to have evidence in the first post
celeron55: that already could have been worth defamation charges towards the OP
celeron55: frankly
IhrFussel: Thanks and I agree....I'm absolutely not trying to protect any criminals on my server...but I will only act after I see actual evidence for such claims. And insulting me ingame and in the forum to be a pedo protector just because I don't ban someone who may or may not be a child lover will of course result in temp bans
celeron55: not worth it if they weren't in the same country as yourself or they are a kid though
celeron55: well i have no reason to believe you, but i have even less reason to believe that forum thread, lol
celeron55: it's the internet after all
IhrFussel: L-Dog is no kid btw, he's an adult...this could explain why he tries to be so overprotective
IhrFussel: But what shocked me the most is that other completely unrelated people came into that thread somehow just believing him and even posting police report sites...that's a bit much
celeron55: my estimate is 50% of people are idiots
celeron55: i also believe the police know that so i wouldn't worry too much about those reports
IhrFussel: He also posted directly in the thread of my server as well by the way...not sure if I should report those posts too
celeron55: well i searched "child" and "girl" from his posts and no other thread popped up
IhrFussel: Nah I think what he posted in the server thread so far isn't as critical as the contents in that other thread...should he decide to repeat the same stuff in my server thread though then I will report the posts
IhrFussel: Unless his posts include some evidence finally
erlehmann: <celeron55> my estimate is 50% of people are idiots
erlehmann: low-balling it here right? :D
erlehmann: <celeron55> i also believe the police know that so i wouldn't worry too much about those reports
erlehmann: i haven't read the thread (and don't intend to), but for anything involving police, my first advice is: get a lawyer
erlehmann: also don't talk to the police beyond identification and asking for access to your lawyer
erlehmann: IhrFussel also it is a good idea to have offsite backups (i.e. where you can't easily get to and others won't find it) in case some fun-hater wants to take the server down or harass you.
independent56: hello! i will be more active over these 10 days, because someone i sat next to in school tested positive, and i have to "self-isolate". what fun!
independent56: /join #cachet
independent56: fuck
rubenwardy: no swearsies, this is a christian minecraft server
independent56: XD
Warr1024: "This server is christian, but none of the players or admins are.  We're honestly not sure how it ended up that way."
wwar: "... or how its supposed to end."
entuland: does the content DB automatically pull new releases from GitHub?
gpcf: yes, if you've set it up to use tags
entuland: you mean if I set my entry in the content DB to use tags? I am logged in and I can't see any setting for that
entuland: ah wait, I was looking in the wrong place
entuland: uhm... I have the VCS Repository URL set up, seems like at least one release got pulled automatically, I'll give it some time and see if it will pull today's one automatically
rubenwardy: entuland: https://content.minetest.net/help/update_config/
rubenwardy: You can set ContentDB to make a release for every commit or every tag
rubenwardy: there's also an API or webhooks
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix some typos in builtin (#11370) 13b28523b https://git.io/JnPXb (152021-06-21T16:30:29Z)
entuland: aye, wasn't set up properly
entuland: probably I only updated the content DB manually and I forgot about it
GNUHacker: servers admins have a serious problem, the modified clients
specing: ohno
specing: GNUHacker: Why is that a problem?
rubenwardy: cheat clients, I'd guess
specing: GNUHacker: what kind of cheats are a problem?
specing: Minetest (other than rubenwardy's CTF server) isn't really a competitive game in the traditional sense
rubenwardy: there are quite a few PvP servers though
Pexin: many people treat mt as a 'platform' to customize a game experience per-server
Pexin: also there are multiple types of competition, not necessarily combat
Warr1024: I've had a couple of cheat clients connect to my server but mostly they just got frustrated and left when they discovered that nobody was impressed.
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Update builtin locale (#11371) 137fdbf3f https://git.io/JnPAj (152021-06-21T17:55:55Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04neoh4x0r -> 03minetest/minetest: Strip carriage returns from lines in settingtypes.txt (#11338) 139d2e7fc https://git.io/JnPxv (152021-06-21T17:55:48Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04bensuperpc -> 03minetest/minetest: Update Dockerfile and improve build speed (#11313) 134b9a51f https://git.io/JnPxf (152021-06-21T17:55:38Z)
GNUHacker: specing: cheat clients :/
specing: Pexin: and so the only people cheated out of that experience are the cheaters themselves?
specing: GNUHacker: be more specific, please
Pexin: having said that, I hate hate #9315 or at the least use a more lenient priv than debug..  -_-
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9315 -- Require debug priv to view gameplay-relevant debug info (2nd try), add wireframe priv by Wuzzy2
rubenwardy: `basic_debug` is used to show things like position and such
rubenwardy: `debug` is wireframe
rubenwardy: PR desc is outdated
Pexin: hm
Warr1024: Heh, it now means "require A debug priv, not THE debug priv"
Pexin: on our server we "compete" by building better stuff, and having easy access to coords becomes kinda important
Warr1024: If you want players to have access to coords then grant them that access
Warr1024: It will be nice though to make cheats an "opt-in" only feature though.
Warr1024: at least, the built-in cheats, even if we can't prevent hacked clients.
rubenwardy: Pexin: then grant basic_debug
Warr1024: tbf we'll have to get this merged first and then folks will need to update and THEN grant the priv.  Unless someone either modifies the database directly or registers the priv preemptively with a mod.  I don't think you can grant a priv that's not registered.
sfan5: wait isn't that technically a breaking change
rubenwardy: I don't think that debug info should count as part of the "API" used to determine breaking changes
rubenwardy: but it could be mitigated by making it a default priv perhaps
rubenwardy: although, that only applies to new accounts
Warr1024: https://xkcd.com/1172/
sfan5: this is also bad because it will hide debug info on older servers with no way for server owners to grant it
rubenwardy: then can register the priv themselves though? In a mod
Warr1024: what do you mean "now way?"?
Warr1024: They should be able to grant it once the change is in
rubenwardy: Well, one way around this would be to make it a hud flag
Warr1024: they'd only need the mod if they want to grant it preemptively so they don't forget at upgrade time
rubenwardy: you can then use on_grant etc to tie it into a priv
Warr1024: I think the HUD flag idea was explored but didn't get this far.
rubenwardy: but this would be inconsistent
sfan5: @Warr1024 but how do you grant it on a 5.4 server?
sfan5: like ruben said you can only insert another mod
Warr1024: The priv would only be needed on 5.5+ (or 5.6 if it doesn't make freeze I guess) so why would I need to grant it on 5.4?
rubenwardy: the hud flag could be on by default
sfan5: because you have people using 5.5 clients?
Warr1024: Oh, 5.4 clients I assume wouldn't honor the setting and would just unconditionally show the debug info
sfan5: that is the reverse of the problem I'm trying to explain
Warr1024: Oh, 5.5 clients on a 5.4 server?
rubenwardy: correct
Warr1024: Sure, a mod would work.  Or it could be registered with builtin in a 5.4.2 or something.
rubenwardy: 5.4.2 wouldn't help as that's still a new release
Warr1024: really it seems like a '/grant -f' option might make sense to allow server owners to grant unregistered privs in anticipation of them being registered later anyway.
Warr1024: So what is your proposed alternative?
rubenwardy: A hud flag like enable minimap makes sense, it would be on by default which would fix support with 5.4 servers
GreenXenith: Dont hud flags make more sense in the context of modding APIs anyway?
rubenwardy: yeah definiteyl
Warr1024: What would that flag be though?  "Require priv for debugging info" or "disable debugging info" and do the priv check server-side?
rubenwardy: no
rubenwardy: like enable minimap, it would disable the basic debug info
rubenwardy: the flag doesn't know about the priv
rubenwardy: The priv in builtin can use on_grant/revoke/join to set the hud flag.  Mods can override the priv by unregistering it
rubenwardy: or just setting in joinplayer after builtin
Warr1024: Okay, well, you'd have to look back at the previous PR and the discussion on the original issue to see why that idea was rejected when it was explored.
Warr1024: If whatever was concluded is wrong or no longer applicable then I guess we'll have to revive that line of inquiry
rubenwardy: > “Why not using HUD flags?”. HUD flags are controlled by mods. This implies that mods can screw around with the debug info at will. All it takes is one poorly-coded mod to strip away the extended debug info from the admin, which is not fun to track down. Privileges, by comparison, are much more reliable and predictable and there are no ugly surprises.
sfan5: that's pretty weak argument
rubenwardy: yeah I agree
Warr1024: At this rate though I'll have retired before we figure out how to actually get anything merged.
sfan5: 0.3.1 had no Lua mods so logically mods can't mess anythin up
sfan5: QED
Warr1024: Was "mods can control" this really the reason to reject that?
sfan5: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Warr1024: I thought having mods/games/servers able to control debug features was the whole point of this thing
sfan5: doing :set_hud_flags({minimap = false}) doesn't touch all other flags, does it?
GreenXenith: Is this Warr? 🙃
GreenXenith: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/856600943214985216/0vva3sr4pnq61.png
Warr1024: haha
exe_virus: Lol, nice
Warr1024: I seriously doubt that story because there's never JUST ONE bug.
rubenwardy: Wuzzy ^
Warr1024: I think the mod-controlled flag thing makes sense to me and would suit me fine.  I would like NodeCore to be able to disable by default the debug info, but allow server owners and singleplayers and such to be able to override that should they choose.  I am also fine with people creating mods that override it.  I just want the DEFAULT experience when playing the game to be what it should be.
Pexin: what it should be?
Warr1024: I have instructions in the "new player guide" to set certain settings or do or don't do certain things, and that makes for a bad experience.  I'd rather the game just do what it's supposed to do by default, so that players realize clearly that they're changing something when they play a different way.
Wuzzy: Why was I summoned?
rubenwardy: we're discussing #9315
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9315 -- Require debug priv to view gameplay-relevant debug info (2nd try), add wireframe priv by Wuzzy2
sfan5: the reason for not making the basic debug thing a HUD flag was considered insufficient
Warr1024: Where was that comment about the HUD flag thing from anyway?
rubenwardy: PR OP
Wuzzy: so can i consider my PR to be rejected?
sfan5: no?
Warr1024: one issue and 2 PRs, each with a massive thread... wow, that's a lot to dig back through.
rubenwardy: this is very much our fault for dropping the ball on this
ZftxqBQjXIqw: Li83raChAT aIN't new fr33nod3, y0u'r3 mislED
Warr1024: It looks like I actually advocated it to be a HUD flag that defaults to on (I think minimap and zoom are like that?), with the ability for a game/mod to turn it off, and then a priv to force it back on...
rubenwardy: I see the basic_priv working like this when a hud flag is added: https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/a64eeb55b1f4ae8d7d8e630e5a00c2cc
rubenwardy: *basic_debug
rubenwardy: if you still want the basic_debug priv
sfan5: having a priv would be useful to avoid having to install a mod to make it work
rubenwardy: yeah
Wuzzy: uhhhh are we STILL arguing the HUD flag thing? nooooooooooooooo, i thought this was settled. :( so frustrating
sfan5: but for compatibility and internal reasons it has to be a hud flag
rubenwardy: a mod can then do     minetest.registered_privileges["basic_debug"] = nil    to unregister the priv, and control the hud flag without conflict
Warr1024: Yeah, I think it was settled for you that a HUD flag wasn't what you wanted but I don't think other people accepted the issues you had with it, Wuzzy...
rubenwardy: well, or just only set it to true - then basic_debug would be used for admins to have it regardless
sfan5: by the way on_grant and on_revoke are broken
rubenwardy: they get called twice but should work
Wuzzy: i really really do NOT want a hud flag. its debug for crying out loud, not a gameplay thing
sfan5: they don't do what you need if multiple privs are revoked or granted at the same time
rubenwardy: I can't see any issues about on_grant
GreenXenith: Well, it is a gameplay thing as it currently stands
sfan5: Wuzzy: the debug information absolutely relates to gameplay or else we wouldn't have this whole issue and showing coord would be fine
Warr1024: We get that you don't want a HUD flag but I don't think you've made your case why it needs not be.
sfan5: rubenwardy: okay actually it should work for this
sfan5: but let me illustrate why it's broken
Wuzzy: yes. NOW it relates to gameplay. ripping out the gameplay out of the debug screen (by default) is the whole point of this issue, so that it is gameplay-free in the future without privs
Warr1024: You mean you want to change the default behavior to opt-in.
Warr1024: I could get behind that too, tbh, but we still need to make sure there's a smooth migration path or there will be a lot of noise about this change...
Warr1024: but I don't see a way to smoothly change the default external behavior without doing it across 2 releases
Wuzzy: If you need ANY mods to make debug screen work, that's a terrible TERRIBLE way to go forward. any bad mod and you can't access the debug screen anymore. this is absolute madness. debug should never work like this
Warr1024: and IIRC this thing missed at least 2 releases already...
Wuzzy: oh that's nothing
Warr1024: I think what's being suggested here is that it should require a mod or game to make the decision to remove existing info from the F5 screen, and then they can use privs to restore it for selected playres.
Wuzzy: we have PRs far older than that
sfan5: "any bad mod and you can't access the debug screen anymore" and?
sfan5: mods can break just about everything
sfan5: why is this and exception?
sfan5: an*
rubenwardy: HUD flags can be on by default, and you can have the priv in built-in anyway
Wuzzy: are you serious? its the debug screen. that's the ONE thing that should work reliably in minetest. debugging mods would be the absolute nightmare if you cant even rely on the debug screen anymore
Warr1024: Not trusting mods with privileged system access, network connections, etc. as per mod security is one thing, but not trusting them with gameplay-affecting decisions is entirely another.
Warr1024: The debugging screen already doesn't work if you introduce a crash-on-startup bug into a mod.
Wuzzy: mods should have zero say in how the debug screen looks imo. if we let mods start to mess with the debug screen, this is going to make things extremely painful for modding/game making.
Wuzzy: also, games should just use hud_add if they want coordinates back
Warr1024: If you introduce a "makes the debug screen not work anymore" bug into a mod then yeah, you'd want to remove that same as you would an instant crash.
GreenXenith: I think we are missing the clarification on what exactly is "debug" and what is not?
sfan5: we don't seem to be talking about the same thing
Wuzzy: this is a type of bug that should not even be possible
sfan5: if "mods should have zero say on the debug screen" then Minetest already has this feature
Wuzzy: yes
Wuzzy: but you want to convince me to change that. WHY?
Warr1024: So if you were against this feature then what was your motivation for making a PR for it anyway?
sfan5: no you don't understand
sfan5: the coordinates are always displayed in the debug screen and mods have no say in that
sfan5: and you are saying "yes" to that
Wuzzy: because its true
Warr1024: I don't see how a priv prevents mods from controlling debug info with the PR the way it is anyway.  You are talking about using a privilege to prevent mods from messing with it as if mods can't just grant/revoke privs.
sfan5: uh uhm
sfan5: are you aware that mods can revoke privileges?
Wuzzy: i want to remove coords and seed from debug screen unless you got priv. so games can decide whether theyy want to expose coords on their own (with hud_add, etc)
Warr1024: Yes, that's the whole point here
sfan5: but games don't decide privileges either
sfan5: server admins do
Warr1024: Are you trying to create some kind of differentiation between games and mods?
Wuzzy: mods/games revoking privs is rather rare tho
Warr1024: Why am I getting the feeling that this thing has been open for so long that Wuzzy can't even remember why he got involved in the first place :-)
sfan5: having a "bad mod" that hides debug info is just as rare
Wuzzy: this doesnt justify hud flag
Warr1024: No, mods that hide debug info are far more rare than mods that affect privs :-)
sfan5: correct
sfan5: there are other arguments that justify the hud flag
Wuzzy: but priv is so much simpler for admin
GreenXenith: Mods that affect privs for something other than privs' sake usually do so because they want to control something that is only controllable via privs
Wuzzy: with hudflags admin is FORCED to install mod
Warr1024: Without HUD flags admin is FORCED to install mod if they want the defaults the other way
sfan5: <sfan5> having a priv would be useful to avoid having to install a mod to make it work
sfan5: <sfan5> but for compatibility and internal reasons it has to be a hud flag
Warr1024: we either force them to use a mod to remove stuff from F5 or force them to use one to re-add it back.
Wuzzy: what compability and internal reasons??
Warr1024: While I agree that the latter is cleaner in the long run, I don't think people are willing to go through that pain.
IhrFussel: Quite a few mods manage privs in order to control fly/fast/noclip and more in realtime...I do that for example to make 'fair zones' on the map where I don't want my players to have certain privs else it would be unfair/too easy
Wuzzy: forcing me to install a mod just so i can see coords in debug is absolute madness. this is unacceptable
Warr1024: Wat
Warr1024: that's what we were just saying
sfan5: if you have a 5.4 client connect to a 5.5 server the debug info will be hidden unless the server admin installs a mod to add the privilege (that doesn't exist yet in 5.4)
Warr1024: If we use the HUD flag then we have a way to default coords to on so that the system continues to behave the way it did before by default and there are no surprises.
Warr1024: If we rely on a priv being granted then that means that anyone upgrading will have to grant that priv to anyone they DON'T want to have a sudden change in behavior
appguru: shouldn't a 5.4 client work fine?
Warr1024: that's not an insurmountable problem but it's very error-prone and many server owners will probably miss the announcement.
appguru: since they would ignore the extraneous privs
Wuzzy: sfan5: sounds like you just gave an argument against hudflags
sfan5: uh no?
sfan5: hudflags can default to enabled no issue
Warr1024: We do need to also consider the case of 5.5 clients on 5.4 servers and 5.4 clients on 5.5 servers, insofar as that there's anything we can do for them at all.
sfan5: privileges that do not exist cannot default to on
Wuzzy: wait, what?
rubenwardy: sfan5 meant 5.5 client on a 5.4 server
sfan5: oh yea
appguru: if the server has the fix but the client does not, the client will still show debug
sfan5: sorry
Wuzzy: how?
Wuzzy: since when do clients have to know about "legal privileges"?
Warr1024: They can't
Wuzzy: dont clients just get a list of strings or whatever?
rubenwardy: 5.4 doesn't have the privilege, so the 5.5 client will never be able to show the basic_debug
rubenwardy: unless you install a mod to add the privilege
appguru: you could use a protocol version check
sfan5: how would a client differentiate "the server knows this priv and I don't have it" and "the server doesn't know this priv"?
rubenwardy: HUD flags can default to true, client-side, fixing this
Wuzzy: wait. do you want to maintain 5.4<--->5.5 compability?
Warr1024: To use a protocol version check we'd have to start actually being a little consistent about bumping the protocol version when there's a change to the MEANING of data over the wire, not just the format.
appguru: yeah, otherwise this would be 6.0
Wuzzy: darn it!!!
Wuzzy: This is why we can't have nice things.
Warr1024: Unfortunately we will already have 5.5-dev clients connecting to 5.4 servers.
appguru: eeh we got shadows
sfan5: dev is irrelevant here
rubenwardy: A protocol version check to not expect basic_debug would work
Warr1024: We CAN have nice things, it's just gonna take a little work.
GreenXenith: Oh dont worry, there are plenty more reasons why we cant have nice things
appguru: those are a nice thing
Warr1024: I personally am in favor of bumping the protocol version if that's an option :-)
sfan5: @Warr1024 protocol version is consistently bumped when compatible changes to the packets cannot be made reasonably
Krock: are we talking about taking away helpful debug information from the clients?
Wuzzy: so. since the only reasonable solution (privs) breaks compability apparently, this means my PR has to be delayed till 6.0 then ... :(((((((((((
rubenwardy: also, dev discussion in #minetest. Classic
Warr1024: it gets bumped way to rarely as it is, making it very hard to know whether you can rely on certain features on the client from the server-side.
sfan5: why bring this up though? protocol version does not need to be bumped
sfan5: Wuzzy: it is perfectly possible to create a compatible solution with hud flags that ALSO does not force you to install a mod to get the info back
Krock: it only needs to be bumped if you want to force clients to update by locking old ones out
Warr1024: Bumping proto version would be a way to allow 5.5 clients to know that a server is 5.4 and wouldn't know about basic_debug.
Wuzzy: here is what i want:
Wuzzy: 1) unprivileged players dont get free coordinates
Warr1024: sfan5: I also have a separate reason to want to see proto version bumped more: we don't have other version tracking that a server can use to tell what features a client supports.
Wuzzy: 2) privileged players CAN get free coordinates on the debug screen
appguru: what we're saying is that for compatibility reasons stuff should default to true, which it won't with privs
Warr1024: For example, we might have minetest.features flag or something for "entity attachment supported" but it doesn't tell me which of the like 3 or 4 generations of attempts to fix it are actually in use on the client-side, and I may only want to actually use it if I know that not only will the client support it, but that it will actually work and not be buggy as hell.
Wuzzy: sfan5: so basically i can throw my entire PR away and have to start from scratch. great ...
sfan5: the features flag is server-side anyway
rubenwardy: well, the protocol check could be a simple alternative
rubenwardy: it depends on whether you think that control should lie with server owners or games
Warr1024: All I want is (1) my game to be able to disable coordinates by default, (2) owners to be able to override this if it makes sense for them, and (3) the damn thing to actually stand a chance of getting merged, whatever other needs need to be appeased to allow that.
Warr1024: sfan5: might be a separate issue in my case, I'm USUALLY more interested in knowing client feature support from the server side than the other way around.
Krock: never trust the client tho
Warr1024: I've already proposed that the protocol version be bumped at least once per release just to ensure that we can reasonably differentiate between whole releases, which was seemingly accepted, and then ignored for one release, and then now is thrown back into dispute.
rubenwardy: the client doesn't really have any motivation to lie, except for downgrade attacks
Krock: ^ right
Warr1024: The purpose of interrogating the client is to find out what the client would want to offer it the best experience.  If it wants to lie to me then there are easier ways for it to degrade its own experience.
Wuzzy: So how WOULD the apparent HUD flag work, then?
Krock: > offer it the best experience  |  hiding information in the client does not seem like better experience
Warr1024: Also, "never trust the client" is a little ironic to be thrown about in the context of a game engine that trusts the client with all player movement and has very limited ability to validate it... :-D
Warr1024: Hiding information in the client is ABSOLUTELY the experience improvement I want to make.
Krock: right. that was not thought through well
Wuzzy: Krock: the MAIN point here is about stop giving coords FOR FREE to all players by default
Warr1024: I really get tired of players asking me about some internal object names that confuse them and then I have to inform them that they just accidentally cheated and now they've been spoilered.
GreenXenith: Letting the client control information just contributes to Minetest's identity crisis of "to engine or not to engine"
sfan5: rubenwardy: https://0x0.st/-9wR.txt do you see the issue?
Warr1024: Minetest is like something that wants to be a game creation engine but can't actually make the transition from creation to created.  I can make a game in MT but players are always treated as if they're devs who are supposed to be debugging the game.
rubenwardy: sfan5: as in, incorrect get_player_privs due to call order?
sfan5: correct
sfan5: there is no consistent privs view
sfan5: this has caused me major pain when writing something that is automatically enabled when you have both fly + fast
Warr1024: oh, you mean the hooks fire at nonsensical times?
Warr1024: Sadly I'm sort of used to minetest.after(0, function() ... end)ing so many things...
sfan5: Wuzzy: you'd have a hud flag that shows the coords, it defaults to on; you also register a priv (just like now) that syncs with the hud flag by default *but* mods/games can unregister
Krock: Wuzzy: as long the information is still shown by default it's okay for me. I don't see much point in hiding it, but if modders want that, then it should be added as a HUD flag  true/false
* Pexin: huggles Krock
rubenwardy: #11372
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11372 -- Inconsistent get_player_privs in on_grant/on_revoke callback
sfan5: s/unregister$/unregister this/
Wuzzy: i dont get it. hud fflag AND privs? sounds complicated and probably overkill
Wuzzy: wait. so you want the default debug screen to have coords still, but with games having the option to remove the coords from debug screen?
Krock: is there any priv that currently modifies the UI?
Wuzzy: yes
Wuzzy: debug
sfan5: yes, the default behavior should not change
Krock: ah right, wireframe.
Wuzzy: but when a game disables the coords, this means admin can't see coords as well!! 🙁
Krock: HUD flags are player-specific, and so are privs
Warr1024: Games are just going to have to be responsible enough to allow admins to admin.
Wuzzy: wait....
sfan5: if the game does that for all players that's an issue with the game
Wuzzy: do you mean the priv can be used to overwrite the game's decision??
Warr1024: If you are trying to run a game on your server and the game dev is fighting against you doing your job then frankly you should probably just not use that game :-)
Warr1024: Priv overriding the hud flag would also be just fine to me.
Wuzzy: argghh this MTDiscord user is so irritaing to read in my chatlog :/
specing: hiding coordinates is just wacky
Wuzzy: i wish i had a tool to pretty-print that
sfan5: the idea was that games can unregister the privilege so that's pretty much identical
specing: imagine the amount of bug reports opened by people reporting that F5 no longer shows coordinates
Wuzzy: specing: ........... sigh. here we go again ...
sfan5: does your IRC client not support scripts?
Warr1024: I think the game should be responsible for honoring the priv, or at least providing its own mechanism, but if you want a more powerful override, that's fine to me...
Hawk777: Does the 5.4/5.5-mismatch privileges problem actually matter all that much? If the privilege option were used, only a 5.5 client connecting to a 5.4 server would unexpectedly lose access to debug info (but not any other combination), *and* if the server admin cared enough then it is *possible* to work around it (by installing a mod that allows the new privilege to be granted in the older version).
specing: sfan5: modified clients are not allowed. You are supposed to enjoy MTDiscord being annoying as intended
Warr1024: Just be glad it's not as much of a mess as the MT -> IRC -> Discord -> MT bridge I've had to deal with elsewhere.
Krock: Hawk777: from what I can see is it about somehow dealing with old clients as soon the feature is merged
Wuzzy: yeah i probably need a script to pretty-print MTDiscord's msgs
GreenXenith: Blame IRC for not having API to display it any other way
GreenXenith: At least on the Discord side you guys look like regular users because Discord lets us do that
Hawk777: What’s the problem with old clients on new servers? They would (maybe) see an extra privilege, not care about it, and still show debug info. No change in behaviour.
rubenwardy: new clients on old servers
sfan5: I wouldn't call renaming the bridge bot on every message "discord lets us do that"
rubenwardy: This problem could be simply fixed using protocol versions though
GreenXenith: We dont rename the bridge bot
rubenwardy: it uses webhooks to create users with custom names
rubenwardy: no renaming
Hawk777: Yes, that was my point. New clients on old servers would lose access to debug info (*NOT* completely break, just that one single feature), *and* if the server admin cared enough then they could re-enable it by adding a mod that knows about the new privilege.
GreenXenith: and custom avatars
Hawk777: It just doesn’t seem like a huge impact.
rubenwardy: yeah and again has a simple fix
rubenwardy: I think it comes down to whether you think this should be a server-owner determined thing, or more game controlled
rubenwardy: and whether you want it by default or not
sfan5: https://0x0.st/-9wC.png doesn't look like no renaming to me
GreenXenith: Webhooks display with a bot tag
sfan5: the name
Warr1024: I don't think "controlled" is the right way of thinking about it.  The server owner controls everything, including the game, because if they don't like something the game is doing then they can just take a hammer to it.  We should mostly be trying to make it so they don't feel like they have to though.
Wuzzy: rubenwardy: is it possible for the client to catch priv changes? thats kind of important for the bugfix ...
sfan5: I am hovering over "Hawk​777"
GreenXenith: The preview also changes
sfan5: and it says sfan5
GreenXenith: If the bot was renamed, the Hawk777 in chat would change too
rubenwardy: Wuzzy: the client must be told about priv changes, because it knows about privs to enable eg fly
Warr1024: Just because a server owner MIGHT want to configure something explicitly doesn't mean that a game or mod should NOT have the ability to set a default for when the server owner doesn't want to override.
sfan5: I can only conclude that discord is broken then
Wuzzy: great
Warr1024: I absolutely want to be able to set the default behavior for F5 debug info as a GAME publisher.
GreenXenith: You know what, no commet
GreenXenith: comment*
GreenXenith: I can splel
Wuzzy: I am so frustated by the dact that Discord basically took over the world of chat 🙁
Wuzzy: why do the proprietary assholes always win???! the world is not fair!
Warr1024: It's not a take-over, it's just an expanded audience.  IRC is still around, Matrix is still fine, and I'm on all of them to some extent or other.
GreenXenith: Anyway, now I know there are at least 3 hidden core devs lurking on Discord ;p
Warr1024: If we just settle on "F5 coords should be server-controlled" then I as a game publisher don't have any way to advise server owners that they should turn off coords by default other than having to contact each server owner and tell them how to setup their config.
Warr1024: With SP it's even worse then because each individual player is a "server owner" of their own.
Wuzzy: let me summarize the plan ...
Wuzzy: 1) default behavior is the same as before
Wuzzy: 2) hud flag to disable gameplay info from debug such as coords
Wuzzy: 3) priv to overwrite the hud flag and get the full debug screen anyway (for admins, etc.)
Wuzzy: is this correct?
rubenwardy: that's correct if the hud flag approach is decided on
Warr1024: by "overwrite" you mean "override" as in "ignore the flag if they have the priv" or do you literally mean "overwrite" as in "having the priv changes the flag value"?
rubenwardy: an alternative is to just add a protocol version check to fix 5.5 clients on 5.4 servers
rubenwardy: Warr1024: latter
rubenwardy: there really needs be a consensus soon though
Wuzzy: rubenwardy: i hope i can figure out how to "catch" the hudflag change in the client then ... to fix ur bug
Warr1024: Okay, just wanted to clarify.  Thinking about it more, that point doesn't really affect my response; if it works and passes review and testing then I would support it.
Pexin: meek question: what are arguments against protocol check?
Wuzzy: none
rubenwardy: loss of game control, harder to make it enabled by default
Warr1024: I think the argument against protocol check is one about purity of the terminology, i.e. that they only want to bump the protocol version when there's an actual change to the protocol.
rubenwardy: which are two things people disagree on
Pexin: does it make it harder to enable by default?
rubenwardy: you can add the priv to default_privs, but that only effects new players
Pexin: ah
rubenwardy: there's no way to add a priv to all existing users currently without making it irrevokable
Warr1024: MT does not have a way to differentiate between privs a player doesn't have because they're not supposed to, vs. privs they don't have because that priv didn't exist before.  It would not be impossible to add that ability, but I doubt it would be worth the mess.
Wuzzy: rubenwardy: ???
rubenwardy: Although, the hud flag approach probably has the same problem
Wuzzy: rubenwardy: thats only true if you give it by default
rubenwardy: as the priv messes it up and has the exact same behaviour
Warr1024: The HUD flag at least allows us to avoid the irrevocability issue though
Wuzzy: if you dont give a priv by default it is revokable
rubenwardy: yes, but you can't give it to all existing users without a migration, which we don't currently have any means for
rubenwardy: or perhaps you could write a mod and store a flag in player meta
rubenwardy: which would be a mod way of enabling by default
sfan5: could also invert the meaning of the priv
Warr1024: The HUD flag allows us to have (1) something that can be freely enabled/revoked, (2) something that can be on by default, and (3) something that's sensible from an API perspective, i.e. not having "unprivileges" as privileges.
Warr1024: inverting the meaning of the priv makes /grant all work funny.
sfan5: would still leave the issue of games not being supposed to control privs on their own
rubenwardy: that breaks the priv system though - a priv should only add an ability, not take it away
sfan5: (it'd be a sign of inflexibility)
sfan5: rubenwardy: creative takes away the ability to play in survival mode ;)
rubenwardy: I also hate the creative priv, it never should have been added
Warr1024: haha, well, "fly" priv takes away the ability to be unable to fly ... but the fact that "/grantme all" would actually take away abilities would be a mess to deal with.
rubenwardy: a gamemode priv and `/gamemode creative` or `/creative` doesn't have that issue
sfan5: games are free to unregister the creative priv I think
Warr1024: "creative" in its entirety seems like something that should be entirely game-driven, not in builtin or engine at all.  I've had to rip out some creative-mode stuff in NodeCore.
GreenXenith: The priv system is sort of messed up to begin with ... privs should really only be connected to API features that enable/disable features. Like fast should be a physics flag or something that the priv controls. That way game and admin control is unified.
Warr1024: It's fine though; I'm much less worried by something that requires a workaround than something that can't be worked around.
wwar: Have 2 accounts, use 1 for craetive/admin stuff and the other for survival?..
Warr1024: Once upon a time MT was a game.  Now, it aspires to be an engine ... but there's still a lot of "game" stuff left in that would have to get migrated over, and there's always a question of where to stop.
Warr1024: It probably seemed obvious at some point in the past that "creative mode" should be a sub-game-mode that exists within each game ... but probably now that's less obviously true.
rubenwardy: with a HUD flag, you can make it so that the priv enables it but it's redundant unless a mod disables it, perhaps
Warr1024: Enabling something that's already enabled doesn't sound like a problem to me :-)
rubenwardy: But there's still the question of whether it needs to be enabled by default, I think it's fairly useful by average users to have positions available for debugging
Warr1024: It's all fine as an academic debate I guess but unless we come up with and agree to a better plan, I'll continue to back the one Wuzzy outlined above.  Even if it's not theoretically perfect, if we can start being able to make this sort of change now, then we should also start being able to correct things later if it turns out we could have done them better.
Warr1024: We've got enough different kinds of flags with overlapping functionality and subtlety of meaning that we could bikeshed this indefinitely if we wanted to.  I'd rather see the feature see the light of day, enable some interesting challenging gameplay where it's used, and see how it behaves out in the field.
Warr1024: If people are going to file MT issues about "why are debug coordinates missing" because a game decides to disable them then you'd already be seeing plenty of "why can't I chop down a tree" bug reports from NodeCore anyway.
rubenwardy: This feels like a big mess, which probably indicates that the design is wrong
GreenXenith: Youve just described Minetest as a whole
Warr1024: More like software as a whole
wwar: Isnt it possible to hide the debug info from nodecore only?
Pexin: kinda feels like part of the issue is there are different expectations of how responsible and attentive individual game admins are
Warr1024: If I wanted to get the design right first, I wouldn't have ever gotten around to writing a single line of code for NodeCore and there'd be nobody playing it today.
Warr1024: wwar: hiding the debug info in nodecore only is sort of what I want, but it wouldn't make sense to just add an "if game == 'nodecore'" test or anything.
Warr1024: I mean there should be a way to do this that's at least a little sane.
wwar: I see
wwar: But i think adding that even tho it makes less sense is better than people in nodecore being able to use it
Warr1024: Also if we start doing game-specific checks in the engine then (1) we introduce circular dependencies to the ecosystem at large, and (2) it'll get messy FAST.
celeron55: tl;dr about the debug coordinate thing?
wwar: I played some nodecore few days ago and noticed that debug info will do some..cheaty stuff
Warr1024: Wuzzy's plan will work fine for NodeCore, it sounds like it will work fine for games and servers that don't want to change anything, and I see on reason it shouldn't work for any other games that want to handle this differently either way.
Wuzzy: celeron55:
Wuzzy: <Wuzzy> let me summarize the plan ...
Wuzzy: <Wuzzy> 1) default behavior is the same as before
Wuzzy: <Wuzzy> 2) hud flag to disable gameplay info from debug such as coords
Wuzzy: * logger56 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
Wuzzy: <Wuzzy> 3) priv to overwrite the hud flag and get the full debug screen anyway (for admins, etc.)
wwar: yeah, noticed that one, was wondering why didnt you already do it (and got the answer)
sfan5: games should have the ability to hide coordinates (and some other stuff) from debug info; the default behaviour should not change and server admins should have it easy to dis-/enable it without a mod
sfan5: proposed solution being what Wuzzy pasted
rubenwardy: celeron55: the PR adds a privilege to show the position etc in the F5 debug info. The problem with this is:   1) 5.5 clients on 5.4 servers won't be able to enable the position    2) it's disabled by default    3) games don't have any/much control
Warr1024: Even if the game engine doesn't provide an override for the coordinate disabling, I would provide it at the game level anyway (and I would expect other games to do so as well) because server operators are part of my game's audience as well.
celeron55: how many games are there that rely on debug coordinates being available to anyone?
GreenXenith: None, I hope
Pexin: define "rely"
sfan5: but you wouldn't want to take them away by default would you?
celeron55: servers are not a problem, their owners can add the priv, but some games aren't maintained and users don't know how to edit them
celeron55: yes, i would want to take it away by default
rubenwardy: there are two proposed alternatives:
rubenwardy: A) Change to a hud flag, there would still be a priv to enable the flag. This is complicated
rubenwardy: B) Keep a priv, use protocol version to fix 5.5 clients on 5.4. This would still take the info away by default and has no game controls, but there are workarounds
Warr1024: The concerns I think are (1) 5.5 clients on 5.4 servers would lose coords immediately until server operators either upgraded or hacked around the issue, and (2) a general "least surprise" violation.
sfan5: to be clear I don't have an issue taking it away by default if that's what we want to decide
sfan5: it just needs to be looked at
celeron55: and i like the privilege approach, the hud flag seems nonsensical
rubenwardy: yeah, the priv approach is simpler
Warr1024: I'm good with taking it away by default
GreenXenith: Why exactly do we care about audience reaction? It's a game update, things are supposed to change.
Wuzzy: my initial solution was about taking it away by default but it was basically murded by the core devs in cold blood
rubenwardy: In which case, we can release an official mod to enable it on 5.4 and by default
celeron55: it's the server owner's decision to grant the privilege if the server is used for debugging purposes
sfan5: what makes it different from the minimap though? that's not a hud flag
rubenwardy: The minimap is a hud flag?
sfan5: not a priv*
rubenwardy: ah
Krock: on/off minimap is a hud flag, but there's also an API for it
GreenXenith: (And again, HUD flags make more sense in the context of modding-- and games should have control over what gets displayed)
celeron55: if a game wants to show coordinates, god damnit just draw the coordinates
Warr1024: :-D
celeron55: using the debug info is abuse of the engine
celeron55: stop abusing my engine
rubenwardy: I think the difference is that the minimap is 100% a gameplay feature, whereas the debug info is a debug feature that negatively impacts gameplay
sfan5: that's okay for a justification
celeron55: if coordinates drawn by a mod is too laggy or something, then add a hud item that shows the coordinates in real time that the game can add on the screen
celeron55: s/add/implement/
GreenXenith: Haha, yeah actually that makes sense. Dont split info from debug at all, just make the priv for it. Games can revoke it and display stuff manually.
rubenwardy: well, sometimes it takes celeron55 a few minutes to resolve a debate that's been going on for an hour
Warr1024: I think we just sort of assumed that nobody would be okay with a change that radical.
rubenwardy: yeah
GreenXenith: Is it that radical of a change?
celeron55: i think someone already suggested this, whoever it was maybe listen to him next time
celeron55: he's faster than me
Warr1024: Having a benevolent dictator around has some real perks.
Wuzzy: <celeron55> using the debug info is abuse of the engine <<<< I have trying to say that for YEARS but nobody wanted to listen 🙁
GreenXenith: Hey benevolent dictator, can we have an explicitly defined direction for the engine to base changes off of? :]
rubenwardy: Would you prefer using a protocol version check to enable the debug info on 5.5 clients with 5.4 servers, or requiring a mod for outdated servers? I prefer the former
rubenwardy: The protocol version check would disable the need for a priv if the server is too old to have it
celeron55: i don't see a problem in using the protocol version for that
celeron55: it shouldn't cause any issues, right?
sfan5: I thought the answer to that too would be "it's okay if it disappears"
Warr1024: The only thing worse than a problem we can't solve because we can't find a solution is one we can't solve because we've got too many solutions, each of which could work just fine...
celeron55: well people appreciate the compatibility and we never know how long certains versions end up being used
celeron55: it pays to be careful
celeron55: certain*
sfan5: quick reminder that ubuntu and debian have still not packaged 5.4.x
Pexin: I spoke with someone today who mentioned he needs 5.1.1 client for his game. obviously due to outdated mods.
Warr1024: I'm on Debian and you should be thankful that they've bothered to do 5.x.x at all.
Benrob0329: sfan5: Stable or backports/testing?
sfan5: in any form
sfan5: testing/unstable whatever
Benrob0329: Ouch
Pexin: re ubuntu: don't they use snap for that?
Benrob0329: Usually Debian's rolling repos are fairly up to date, with the exception that they prefer LTS releases for some stuff
rubenwardy: also PPA for Ubuntu
Benrob0329: Are there official Appimages yet?
Warr1024: Flatpak's MT was last I checked pretty recent, which was how I was running it on Debian for that period between my build scripts breaking due to the irrlicht fork and my finally getting them fixed.
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04NeroBurner -> 03minetest/minetest: Move build/android directory to root of project (#11283) 13a7143c2 https://git.io/JnX3j (152021-06-21T19:51:42Z)
Warr1024: I don't remember whether it was 5.4.0 or 5.4.1
Swift110-mobile_: hey all
Warr1024: When was the "show block bounds" feature added?
Warr1024: like as in first release it did or will appear in...
Jonathon: 5.5-dev
Jonathon: @Warr1024 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11172
Warr1024: Okay, good, I was worried that it had been in there forever and I was just a dunce for never noticing.
Jonathon: by minetest terms is flew under the radar drama and action wise
independent56: guten label (pun on tag)
independent56: anyways, the server is private after port forwarding. i can still play on it, but nobody outisde the network can.
shrikant: Hello! How can i change world size?
sfan5: make it smaller?
shrikant: for example
shrikant: I have an idea to make world only 3 blocks width. But mapgen is v7
sfan5: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/stable-5/minetest.conf.example#L1766-L1770
shrikant: Can't do i it with mod?
sfan5: you probably have to since 3 nodes is smaller than a single chunk (unit used by the map generator)
shrikant: Can i generate normal map and after that make world smaller?
sfan5: a mod could delete everything except the nodes you want to keep, automatically right after the mapgen finishes
shrikant: Ok, thanks
independent56: i think that minetest's ugliest block is permafrost. it looks horrible
wwar: I dont like it too but pretty sure there are worse
independent56: hmm yeah, i have a noob town on an ugly stone and snow mountain. i worldreplaced the snow with air, except on the DMZ. the permafrost is fugly, but that's what the noobs deserve
shrikant: independent56: what is your server?
independent56: http://192.168.1.119/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=start
independent56: oh wait private IP
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=server
ROllerozxa: the jungle tree block is by far the ugliest block though
shrikant: independent56: lol
independent56: i dont agree... the jungle block looks perfect
independent56: but if you have ever went to a permafrost biome, it's like being in a 70s council estate.
independent56: that's an actual photo of the server as well
ROllerozxa: I get nauseous whenever I see the jungle tree block, there's something to the texture that just puts me at unease
independent56: haha XD
independent56: it looks perfect
Ingar: lol NC10
Ingar: independent56: need a spare NC10 for spare parts?
independent56: nay
Ingar: I have a white one, but the monitor cable is broken or something
ROllerozxa: well I guess it is just me then :<
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/htdocs/view/b37d39fc
independent56: (for guy on my server)
Krock: http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/htdocs/view/raw/d1f3e3fd
SFENCE: Hi. I am trying to get entity type name from active object, I am interacting with. I am trying to find it in a documentation, but without success.
sfan5: :get_luaentity().name
SFENCE: sfan5 Does it need something special to be done? because when I call print(dump(object:get_luaentity())), there is no .name field. And it looks like it is nil, when I try to use it.
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=proposals:rs-pv-am_railway (for guy on sevrer)
sfan5: SFENCE: since there's metatables involved dump may not show everything that you can read
SFENCE: sfan5 ok, thanks. Looks well now.
entuland: rawrolling 😂
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Inventory: show error on invalid list names (#11368) 132db6b07 https://git.io/JnrFY (152021-06-20T15:21:50Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfence -> 03minetest/minetest: Add min_y and max_y checks for Active Block Modifiers (ABM) (#11333) 13b10091b https://git.io/JnrF3 (152021-06-20T15:21:35Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04pecksin -> 03minetest/minetest: Make chat web links clickable (#11092) 131805775 https://git.io/JnrFs (152021-06-20T15:20:24Z)
erlehmann: wsor4035 are you getting my messages?
Jonathon: yes
ghoti: Is it possible to have multiple minetest processes using the same postgresql back end without corrupting the world?
hecks: So why was the IRC moved?
VanessaE: google "freenode imploded:
VanessaE: "
VanessaE: you'll find out all you need to know
hecks: :o
hecks: haha what the hell
VanessaE: but in short, hostile takeover, original staff resigned, this network came into prominence, and here we are
VanessaE: and the original freenode more or less went offline entirely several days ago
sfan5: ghoti: if thy use different table/db names sure
independent56: ok, i have banned "server", "admin", and "56i". misleading nicknames, go away!
pGXcAyUuIfTH: 5ePaRAtI5m kI1l5 1RC, dO not beTr4Y fre3NodE
EGvhlXiribcP: SeP4r4TisM K1L15 1RC, d0 not betR4y frE3nODE
JMSYcEyNoEZz: Join fREENod3 SIdE, wE HAv3 c00KIE5&freE bnC
uTOIxtpjKmNU: lur1N9 FReENOD3 u53rS hEr3 IS 1mpUdeNt thEFt
entuland: "free bnc" what is even that ahahha
hecks: can we like
hecks: make all those admins fight to the death in the arena for our amusement instead of making us put up with this
entuland: +1
entuland: but just those on the other side, among each other
ghoti: sfan5: I was thinking more of using the *same* tables, i.e. making multiple minetest front-end servers using a common postgresql back end.
ghoti: As for free BNC... My guess is that it's a desperate attempt to win back market share for 10BASE2, which of course is just as likely to resurge as Freenode. :P
entuland: so BNC there stands for a type of cable?
specing: entuland: freenode started providing free bouncers to everyone
entuland: oh that makes more sense
hecks: and free spam
hecks: but what if it's the libera admins false flagging... i trust neither, ok?
shrikant: Hello! How is `uses` working with tool when tool used as weapon?
sfan5: punch_attack_uses controls that
sfan5: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/stable-5/doc/lua_api.txt#L7248-L7254
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/s5OLq4E
independent56: why isn't my TNT working properly, and not destroying this part of the tower?
specing: Tbh with all the logging happening via matrix, irc and personal bouncers, it'd be stupid to not implement the IRC history extension and providing that to everyone
sfan5: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory btw
Krock: specing: what? https://irc.minetest.net/
shrikant: sfan5: thank you
erlehmann: specing xmpp is the only protocol where i have seen interoperable history actually
erlehmann: everything else seems to be either too old if open standard or some company that thinks you could … gasp … go somewhere else
erlehmann: i mean the freenode story kinda proves that it's really really hard to alienate users and keeping them
erlehmann: if they only need to change a server address and can keep using their software stack
erlehmann: <ghoti> Is it possible to have multiple minetest processes using the same postgresql back end without corrupting the world?
erlehmann: ghoti what exactly are you trying to do?
ghoti: erlehmann: I am trying to write a lua script that will be executed by cron, and will read the data inside xban.db.
erlehmann: uh oh
erlehmann: no idea then
erlehmann: i thought maybe it could be side stepped
ghoti: Oh wait, I am having multiple conversations here. Sorry, wrong one.
ghoti: erlehmann: re the multiple server thing, I want to have a small collection of minetest servers sharing a world to help scale to accommodate load.
ghoti: It's just an idea though, it could be foiled by record locking or non-transactional db updates or any number of things.
sfan5: you picked a hard if not impossible problem
sfan5: unless the area of the world active would never overlap but then why share it?
ghoti: The xban.db issue is entirely separate, and I'm asking about that in #lua. :-)
ghoti: sfan5: I am still learning about what parts of a minetest server tax what parts of a system or network. If CPU or memory becomes a problem, clamping down on the number of users seems to be the current best practice.
erlehmann: ghoti which mod are you using that generates so much load?
ghoti: erlehmann: none at all, this is theoretical.
sfan5: the main bottleneck is certainly the single threaded mainloop of the server
sfan5: however there's almost always some moderately easy optimization potential in mods
ghoti: That's what I was thinking, and the migration to postgres definitely bought a performance boost for me.
sfan5: if you know where to look
ghoti: As I said, I am not trying to solve a problem that I am currently having. Just exploring how things might be done in the future. I will experiment a little.
ghoti: I'm thinking that if, for example. two people mine a block, they are affecting a memory object that has been copied to the client, and when the client completes an action it sends an update to the server to record the change to the world.
ghoti: If the client were to *lock* the affected node when digging begins, it would increase traffic, but allow for a second server not to permit actions on the affected block.
ghoti: er, I mean node, not block (which i realize has another meaning)
sfan5: what matters is the block though
sfan5: it's the smallest unit stored in the db and thereforce the minimum you'd have to lock
ghoti: Ah, okay. So at best, I could expect one person's activity in a block to lock out other people in the same block.
entuland: yep, looks like something that could screw things up or slow them down it two players happen to be handled by two different servers and building in the same mapblock
sfan5: but there's much bigger synchronization issues: cached map blocks, inventory, lua state, entities, ...
ghoti: True. Perhaps a future goal might be a "multi-server" option that turns on the high traffic synchronization for all of these things as a server option.
ghoti: ButI I understand there would not be huge demand for this.
specing: Eh, this isn't a problem. Even if you have a protected area you can still dig the node client-side, the server will just "place it back immidiately" (deny the dig) and you wont get the lump/node in your inventory
specing: In the case of two people digging, it just gives the node to the first one or something
ghoti: .. and appears as "lag" to the second player?
specing: ghoti: note that digging is actually two commands: START_DIGGING and DIGGING_COMPLETE
ghoti: specing: is each of those commands sent to the server when it is triggered in the client?
specing: I think so. At least I have to send both from CSM if I want the node dug
ghoti: Perhaps this *will* be possible without major server surgery. I will experiment.
ghoti: Thanks very much, both of you.
specing: As for the "lag", if minetest was serious about CSMs, you could have a local mod that interfaces with areas server mod and prevent the dig animation to even happen for protected areas
ghoti: Ooh, true, I always forget about CSMs.
specing: I suppose you could do the same to cancel digging nodes that someone else is already working on
ghoti: I like that idea.
specing: but I don't think it's worthwhile, most of the tools used are crazy fast
specing: Actually, I think this is doable in the official client already, at least the register_on_punchnode is ppart of official API
specing: as are modchannels
specing: so you can have a CSM that receives area info from server via modchannel and then returns true in on_punchnode if local player is not on the list
specing: and same CSM could also receive data about nodes being dug in close proximity
specing: and could perhaps even animate them as being dug (with a more advanced client)
specing: so they aren't just disappearing
ghoti: That sounds great.
ghoti: I will explore, thanks.
shrikant: https://minetest.gitlab.io/minetest/tools.html there are two termins - rating of node in groupcap and level of node in groupcap. Are node rating and node level different termins?
BigBear: shrikant - level is not the same as rating. e.g. {cracky = 3 , level = 2} might be on a node, but i havn't experimented with level much myself.
shrikant: BigBear: is cracky = 3 - rating?
BigBear: yes
BigBear: so cracky=3 will dig fairly quickly/easily with pickaxe, but the level=2 means you still can't dig it at all with a stone pickaxe because it is maxlevel = 1.
BigBear: (i think)
BigBear: the timings combine the level and the rating (cracky) values in combination with the tool timings
shrikant: Can i brake pickaxe when digging only N blocks of stone faster, then digging N nodes level=1?
shrikant: BigBear: thank you
BigBear: the higher the max level of the tool, compared to the level of the node, the more 'uses' you get out of it. So higher level nodes wear tool more.
shrikant: hmm... Interesting
shrikant: There is no one count of durability.
BigBear: yeah, so with one pickaxe you can dig more blocks of stone than blocks of obsidian before breaking.
shrikant: But how this minetest's "durability" store in world?
shrikant: in files
BigBear: so the durability is the 'uses' on the tool definition, but i think you might be asking about *wear* which is stored against the tool - similar to param1 and param2 on nodes i guess
calcul0n__: wear is stored in item's metadata
calcul0n__: (iirc)
calcul0n__: ho i'm wrong, that's a specific feature: https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/items/inventories.html#wear
BigBear: yeah i noticed it had its own 'set_wear' , wasn't sure about actual under-the-bonnet implimentation though.
independent56: ugh, can the aincent civilisatioins who built dungeons build better? i am sick and tired of rennovating dungeons and finding weird walls.
BigBear: bit late, they are long dead i think :p, weird how?
independent56: hmm
independent56: yeah, should jave used past tense. and wow... they spread all over the map 0_0
independent56: why were they so much better at conquering then me?
hecks: that's why they're dead, they got stuck in their cobble homes after forgetting to build stairs
BigBear: you know i remember seeing on tv the oldest known organised human civilisations, and they didn't have individual houses, they had their homes as a warren of small rooms all built together, and they would climb out the roof to enter and leave, and walk over the flat roof to get anywhere
independent56: XD
independent56: anyways, does anyone recognise the playername "talex"? this is the second time he played on my server.
hecks: why, did he do something?
independent56: joined for a second time.
shrikant: lol
independent56: i ave only had visitors, who play once and say "latency :face_vomiting:"
BigBear: lol
shrikant: independent56: he want to say it twice :D
independent56: XD
independent56: then explain this:
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/o8xuHyb
independent56: wb ywang
independent56: the advtrains issue is fixed by just not using the broken track section. (maybe i shouldn't say fixed, maybe i should say "hacked")
GNUHacker: hi
BigBear: do you think anyone actually plays minetest with the Lojban locale?
independent56: yes. i use it. english is too vouge
BigBear: vague? or vogue? English is an awful language, but if the purpose of language is to communicate to actual people...
BigBear: adoption is kinda important
BigBear: like ip4
independent56: haha
Krock: BigBear: so apparently there's exactly one person :P
SwissalpS: one person still on ipv4 or what?
Krock: context. Lojban language.
SwissalpS: sorry, I need to go read the log before asking :/
independent56: so... you're telling me that the freenode network, wich has lived 26 good years has died? oh my god...
independent56: fuck this andrew guy.
specing: independent56: no, freenode just changed the name to libera
specing: ugh, the discord bridge is back, time to stop chatting
entuland: eheheh
independent56: phew... oh wait
hecks: we're still on freenode, some rich korean just stole the name, that's all
independent56: haha oh yeah
independent56: what is //deleteblocks but for strictly the selection, and not the mapblock?
wwar: umm.. deleteblocks regenrates an area and removes every modification happened after the server was first created.. thats what i know
wwar: (in the selected area)
wwar: (and that area is bigger than the place you select with //1 and //2)
independent56: i know that. and it was a pain. i want to remove the blocks, but make the landscape come back. i am doing this right next to a building.
wwar: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/855875378279219250/Screenshot_2021-06-19-21-25-55.png
wwar: Its desicription ^
wwar: Works according to mapblocks so if you selected a bit from the next mapblock it will delete the whole mapblock
wwar: Well deleteblocks isnt safe near buildings but you can try that (not 100% safe) going 17 blocks away in the direction of the area you want to delete and select the pos1 and 2 as 1 block and do the command
independent56: i want //deleteblocks, but it would remove the blocks and regrow natre in the section. something liek "//clear" or "//removeblocks"
wwar: well you can set the place to air if you need "//removeblocks"
wwar: That will not regen the area tho
sfan5: it would be possible to have the mapgen regenerate the section on a copy of the map and only copy the wanted parts back
sfan5: but such thing do not exist right now
independent56: sad
independent56: have you any poor experience with "maja3"? they joined my server
independent56: how do i disable ABM logging?
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/htdocs/view/56b49f19
independent56: oh and also, we have these inconsistencies like "enable_setting_thing = true" and "setting_thing = true" and "disable_setting_thing = true". why do we do this? it is inconsistency!
Jonathon: the only thing consistent about minetest is its inconsistencies
independent56: XD
Krock: open an issue about it
Krock: nobody will care
sfan5: even with an open issue it's not worth changing
Krock: you can disable the ABM logs by modifying the source or setting the log level to ERROR
Krock: or better: optimize them so that they're not triggered in first place
independent56: hmm... if only my world.mt was'nt 30 mb
Krock: why is your world.mt 30 mb?
specing: in unrelated news, independent56 figures out that running a server isn't a piece of cake
independent56: XD
independent56: i actually like all this shit wich computers throw at me. it's much better then IRL shit.
independent56: or maybe i have stockholm syndrome :thinking:
independent56: crap
independent56: must be the minetest server hogging all network
independent56: shutting down the server
independent56: *minetest server
entuland: independent56, there seems to be just too much stuff accessible on that server of yours
independent56: like what? 0_0
entuland: I can't tell how much of that is on purpose or not, but you may want to prevent file listing and accessing ini files and the alike
entuland: http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/docker/
independent56: oh god! i never know that existed 0_0
* independent56: searches up how to disable file browsing XAMPP
y5nw: since it uses apache I think .htaccess should be enough
Jonathon: lol
specing: lol
specing: indepwned56
independent56: i know... i am trying to solve the error, but i am slow
Krock: the blog is kinda cringe
Krock: and the main page spells "dokuwiki" wrong
Krock: hence 404 error
independent56: oh fuck
Krock: hey entuland add yourself to the wiki before it's too late 8)
independent56: idrc about my blog. my server, so i choose what i put on it.
* entuland: giggles
Krock: :D
entuland: gotta love UTF-8: "You have reached 56i’s IP address"
independent56: the page isn't protected because it is a //wiki//. it is for public editing
Krock: noooo
Krock: somebody removed it
independent56: i did
independent56: and i disabled editing
independent56: i am an admin, so i do what i like on my servrr
Krock: entuland: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=top_secret_hideout_place
Krock: but don't share pls
entuland: ahahahah
entuland: let's start an edit fight
Krock: well it's game over
entuland: already? oh my
Krock: i56 doesn't think that it's funny
entuland: I should have PMed everyone but i56 :P
independent56: >:->
Krock: :3
independent56: admins will always win. i learnt the hard way
Krock: until we get admin privs
independent56: *restores yesterday's backup*
Krock: *deletes backups*
entuland: http://gph.is/2gE3XZv
Krock: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_cloud.png
independent56: yeah... i should stop keeping my password as "123456"
independent56: XDXD that joke is funny
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=server
independent56: have a look
independent56: i might as well disable port forwading
independent56: 404 XD
Krock: https://i.postimg.cc/WpgHGxj2/why.png
Krock: 123456 is not working
independent56: did you think i was that stupid?
Krock: perhaps
Jonathon: no, but its probably something similarly stupid
Alias: Try "raspberry"
Benrob0329: hunter2
independent56: *disables wireless networking on the webbook*
Krock: Alias: not working. Benrob: not working, already tried
independent56: one command - "nmcli radio wifi off"
independent56: portforwarding disabled
entuland: "there is this weird channel on the Minetest Discord where dozens of bots interact with each other all the time, and they kinda make some sort of sense sometimes, the AI there is flexing some serious ML"
Jonathon: 😏
Krock: your server is offline
Krock: and I just found another possible exploit
Krock: please i56 start it again
entuland: the cable passes through a guillotine hole connected to a big fat red button
Krock: why not to a lego? you're more likely to hit that
Krock: with your feet at least
independent56: ok... fine. just HTTPS port forwarding this time
Krock: rip SSH
entuland: oh nice, 1-1
Krock: hmmm http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=do_not_open_this_image.png
Krock: is this supposed to be there
independent56: will be removed as soon as i am able to
Benrob0329: Hahaha
independent56: probably using the guilotine method of ssh rm
independent56: *sudo rm
Krock: I could upload Minetest there
Krock: yep
entuland: independent56, just for the records, when you have such a pierced system the best thing you can do is probably put it immediately offline to be thoroughly checked (it's not like you're getting sued for interruption of service)
Krock: guys there's now a somewhat trustworthy official Minetest mirror: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?ns=mods%3A&image=mods%3Aminetest-5.4.1-win64.zip&do=media&tab_files=files&tab_details=view
Krock: *cough*  /s
entuland: someone else may have spotted such issues before I did days ago
independent56: XD nah
entuland: that's your call
entuland: your system may have a few dozen backdoors installed already
independent56: yeah... i need to fix that. time for more sysadmin work
Krock: hey. the page is down again
independent56: i took it down
Krock: I hope you've got that Minetest copy
Jonathon: and pray tell what fun and games did you put in it?
Krock: none. I just grabbed the 5.4.1 Win64 build
Jonathon: shame
Krock: the file limit was 128 MB so I could've uploaded a development build with pointer sanity checks built-in. 30.3 MB for the executable alone
independent56: ok, i am making a tiddlywiki note so i can fix these problems.
Krock: but make sure nobody can edit that note
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/uGG20e6
independent56: it is on a local file, on my main computer. it has no port forwarding rules enabled
independent56: im adding "run by 14 yr old on first peak of dunning-kruger"
entuland: eheheh, nice one
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/oVurkgq
independent56: note made
exe_virus: In case anyone is wondering: yes, taking wuzzy's old mods and trying to get them running in recent MT versions is tedious. But the programming style is not that bad
independent56: i'll take it back online when the issues get fixed.
Benrob0329: Honestly TiddlyWiki makes for a decent website in general, especially with the Github and Gitlab back ends that push a commit to the repo
independent56: i love tiddlywiki. i wouldnt use it online, but i would use it as a personal notebook
independent56: and i do
independent56: wiki is now fixed
mckayshirou: wich is the chance that 100 differently-coded/themed mods would crash, collide?
mckayshirou: (dreambuiilder pack, homedecor-xdecor etc, many mobs mods, and custom shadows)
independent56: you might hit the 36 K node limit
independent56: ~
IhrFussel: 32K*
mckayshirou: i mean, wich lua error can happen
independent56: file listing disabled
mckayshirou: at runtime ¬_¬
independent56: entuland, do you think it is a good idea to open my server up again?
independent56: Krock, i will open up the sever.
entuland: can't tell, I'm not a security expert and I have no idea of what you have patched among the potential flaws
independent56: expectable
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/wordpress/2021/06/19/breakdown/
independent56: can't be bothered being awake, port forwarding disabled
specing: lol
independent56: well goodnight, i have just realised how little i know,
mckayshirou: gonna run 1 hundred mods on 1gb ram... praying to god
entuland: that's a good base to increase your knowledge, don't worry
Warr1024: I use a VPS with a static IP but I also use a dynamic DNS because (1) I already had an account so it was effectively free and (2) it's easier to remember than a buncha numbers.
Warr1024: Also it made migrating to a different host really seamless and transparent to users.
ar10ch: yeah my main concern was that every tim my router updates, it's out-facing IP changes, I thought DDNS fixed that
Warr1024: DDNS does fix it but you need to be running an update client to keep it up to date, and there can still be a few minutes' delay for DNS caches to flush out.
entuland: your public dynamic IP could change at any time even just restarting the router (say, power loss) in theory
entuland: I had such IPs change on me all the time
Warr1024: In very theory they could just refuse to renew your IP lease and issue you a new one right in the middle of a session and you'd just have your existing connections crap out for a bit.  I've done this to devices on my network when I reorg IP space and they mostly just handle it.
ar10ch: It sounds more and more like remote-hosting is the answer
Warr1024: Don't get too attached to any specific IP address :-/
entuland: oh nice, IP change without closing the connection looks nasty ahahaha
Warr1024: A VPS or other cloud-type host is a better option, yeah.
Warr1024: Also, even if your IP doesn't change, your ISP may have other ways to screw with you, such as blocking ports, throttling, or slapping you for ToS violations if you have residential service with a "no public servers" term.
Warr1024: In practice they rarely bother, but they COULD
ar10ch: yeah i guess for high traffic. my speed aint great but it aint lousy neither, but I am on a budget package atm
entuland: yeah, I've heard many reports about throttling and port blocking from players I support all around the world
entuland: fritz!box routers in germany often come with a filter that simply flat out cuts any attempt at contacting IP addresses directly (luckily it can be disabled)
Calinou: for dynamic DNS, I use https://www.nsupdate.info/
TvSHnaeowOqL: 1iBErA.chat iS a s(aM, (omE 8ack to fR3En0de
mckayshirou: XD
mckayshirou: It is no sense since they just now steal information
mckayshirou: cleared alot of bridges and bots
AQRbxePPKvZQ: lIBER4.(hAT IS A scAm, c0me 8a(k TO fr3en0DE
mckayshirou: sfan5 or celeron55 ipban that guy
mckayshirou: thx
entuland: nice how professional that message is with the leetspeak :P
erlehmann: entuland fun thing: you could avoid the automatic ban for metioning libera.chat by just claiming your channel moves to liberia chat!
entuland: ehehe
erlehmann: also my n key is broke
entuland: macro it away :P
Warr1024: libera.chat really sounds like a form of era.chat that you can link into your own programs.
cheapie: Well, as far as I can tell, the current official build of Minetest works completely fine on the current state of Windows 11.
cheapie: (which I suppose is to be expected, it's not that much different from 10)
ROllerozxa: I don't think any sane person actually plays minetest on windows to begin with
mckayshirou: yeh
mckayshirou: they better play ads games
ROllerozxa: seriously though I'd actually go out on a limb and say that windows users are actually a minority of minetest players
mckayshirou: i do better do not see that sacrilegy, and go to sleep
cheapie: ROllerozxa: I use Linux on most of the boxes here, but I figured I'd try it on here since I was trying out that leaked Windows 11 build, so *shrug*
mckayshirou: fine then
Warr1024: People do run MT on Windows, and every other platform it supports (and a few it doesn't).  Be wary of sampling bias...
mckayshirou: ye , but there are  some popular games that are not made to run on linux (and are blamed to run on)
mckayshirou: the same applis to minetest here
Warr1024: +1 to anyone making it work on more platforms
mckayshirou: yes but not on windows :P
Warr1024: MT is kinda awkward on Windows from what I've seen/heard, but it's nice that it's at least an option.
mckayshirou: kinda = very
ROllerozxa: in what way is it awkward, other than the fact it's officially distributed as a portable zip archive?
Warr1024: Eh, as far as open source stuff on Windows goes in general I didn't don't MT particularly bad.  And if I've gotta run Windows at all I still want to bring the open source world with me as far as that's possible.
Jonathon: Try running minetest on windows, then run minetest on wsl and compare fps (wsl wins)
Jonathon: Other than that, minetest isnt to bad on windows
mckayshirou: i am gonnay say this: latest minecraft is faster than minetest debian 11
mckayshirou: windows* 11
Warr1024: tbf nearly anything should be faster than waiting for debian 11 😏
mckayshirou: that are wise-words
mckayshirou: (+b *!*@88.155.57.123
mckayshirou: sorry
mckayshirou: just want to invasigate if that guy is from freenode
VanessaE: well,
VanessaE: more shaders aren't really needed right now.  maybe sun glare and reflective water later, but now what's needed are bugfixes and fine-tuning :P
VanessaE: (but everyone here knows my stance on that -- fix bugs, improve performance, and only add new features after)
Soni: anyone knows how to use libotr?
exe_virus: Yep, I'm all for cleaning and features in parallel, but cleaning should typically have first priority
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04rubenwardy -> 03minetest/minetest: Add roadmap (#10536) 13e1b297a https://git.io/JnCom (152021-06-17T03:15:30Z)
nisa: test
mckayshirou: delay test to your server?
Santiago39_3: hi
Santiago39_3: i'm trying to install a minetest server for my kids to play in a home server
mckayshirou: well what help do you need
Santiago39_3: i managed to do so, but i feel i could add some mods and stuff like sounds
Santiago39_3: it is installed in debian 10
Santiago39_3: i installed some minetest-server-mods related packages from debian repos
mckayshirou: just puts the mods's directories in ~/.minetest/mods
Warr1024: Play the game in single player, use the Content tab to find mods available, install them there, enable them in your world, and try them out, to figure out which ones you want.
Santiago39_3: minetest-mod-torches minetest-mod-throwing minetest-mod-nether minetest-mod-moreores minetest-mod-moreblocks minetest-mod-homedecor minetest-mod-currency minetest-mod-basic-materials
Santiago39_3: like those
Santiago39_3: this folder ~/.minetest/mods goes in client machines?
Warr1024: Be aware that once you've added a mod to a world, it may add things to that world that may make removing the mod later awkward, e.g. you can end up with a bunch of "unknown node/item" things scattered about, so best to try out the mods and curate a set you like first before committing to a new world with them.
mckayshirou: Warrr1024 anything could go wrong whit that, and also download time is slow
Santiago39_3: or server?
mckayshirou: yeah Santiago39_3
Santiago39_3: some mods are for clients and some for server?
Warr1024: Using OS package managers for installing mods, especially on debian, is largely going to just give you a limited and outdated selection.
mckayshirou: and some incompatible mods may make nasty thing happening when starting
Santiago39_3: i dont get to fully understand this
mckayshirou: no Santiago39_3 they are the same
Santiago39_3: clients download them from the server then?
mckayshirou: yes they do
Santiago39_3: available mods
Santiago39_3: ok
Warr1024: Almost all MT mods (especially the ones that affect gameplay) only need to be installed server-side
Santiago39_3: so, minetest server version running is 5.3.0
mckayshirou: just download these put in your servers mods folder and run
sfan5: you should uninstall the mods from the repositories, they're hopelessly outdated
Santiago39_3: should i remove it and install a newer one?
mckayshirou: nope
mckayshirou: it is fine
sfan5: 5.3.0 is also outdated but it's less of an issue
Santiago39_3: where is the server mods folder?
mckayshirou: ~/.minetest/mods
sfan5: wrong
Warr1024: Be aware that games for MT do behave differently than mods.  I've had a few people break a game by trying to install it it as a mod...
Santiago39_3: clients are also debian 10 and run minetest 5.3.0
mckayshirou: heh ¬_¬ that was sfan5
sfan5: well partially
sfan5: it depends on which user the server is running as
Santiago39_3: you mean /root/.minetest/mods ?
sfan5: and that depends on how debian has set it up
sfan5: yea that might work
mckayshirou: Santiago39_3: are you running server as root??!?!?
sfan5: good point actually
sfan5: it won't be /root
sfan5: if you know the world folder you can also create a "worldmods" inside and put your mods there
Santiago39_3: i'm running it with /etc/init.d/minetest-server start
sfan5: easier and guaranteed to work
mckayshirou: but as which user , you should do whit the normal one (non root)
mckayshirou: sfan5 ye but it is almost the same
Santiago39_3: i think the user is a system user called Debian-minetest
Warr1024: Running MT as root is okay ... if that's the ONLY thing you do with that machine.
mckayshirou: It is fine then
Warr1024: Docker is a nice way to run MT tho
sfan5: I just checked the package and it's indeed Debian-minetest
mckayshirou: Docker is hard to set
Santiago39_3: i dont know where is the folder then
Santiago39_3: there is no /home/Debian-minetest
Santiago39_3: whatsoever
mckayshirou: just do cd $HOME/.minetest/mods
sfan5: this is the point where you'd read debian documentation or ask someone there
sfan5: but I doubt they know either
Warr1024: Learning docker JUST to run an MT server is probably more of a pain in the ass than it's worth, but if you're already familiar with docker, already run containers, and/or want to be able to move your MT server setup around easily, the effort eventually pays for itself.
mckayshirou: yeh but in a brand new pc just for MT it is not worth the effort
mckayshirou: on a workstatio it is worth, for example
sfan5: here's my suggestion: uninstall it and start over, you can easily compile the server and receive a portable build
sfan5: then you have mods/ games/ and worlds/ folders with no confusion where they are and can start the server yourself manually
sfan5: perhaps someone else should package that nicely so users don't have a hard time setting up one
mckayshirou: [Away]
mckayshirou: i already done but for 0.4
sfan5: ( here's what I'm thinking of https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=311160#p311160 )
mckayshirou: That is very hard to do for a medium user
mckayshirou: should be something like 1) download 2) install 3) add mods 4) run
Santiago39_3: ok i found the folder
Santiago39_3: is /var/games/minetest-server/.minetest/mods
Santiago39_3: now, i wanted to install ambient sounds but i cannot get them work i think
Santiago39_3: i found this https://github.com/Neuromancer56/MinetestAmbience
Santiago39_3: is there a repo with updated mods?
mckayshirou: Anything added goes to /mods
Santiago39_3: maybe i'm trying to install old stuff
mckayshirou: no there is not
Santiago39_3: ok
mckayshirou: these mods are the same as 2015, but are very stable
sfan5: did you enable them in world.mt?
mckayshirou: and othe mods depend on them, so dont deinstall these
mckayshirou: makes sense XD
independent56: i have been using this channel for far too much off-topic. what IRC channel on libera is great for general programmer talk?
mmuller: it looks like debian's version of minetest is still at 0.4.17, so I expect there will be some problems with many mods
Santiago39_3: so, what mods you recommend me to add?
Santiago39_3: my kids are 7 and 10 yo
Santiago39_3: they are fans of minecraft, terraria, etc
mckayshirou: Search for these : "homedecor" "caverealms" "xtraores" "plantlife" "3d_armor"
mckayshirou: "craftguide" also is good choice
Santiago39_3: i dont have "caverealms" "xtraores" "plantlife"
mmuller: I personally like dreambuilder -- it's a modpack that includes a few of the mods mckayshirou named and many more
mckayshirou: But these adds some complicated to understand mods
mmuller: I believe VanessaE still maintains it
mckayshirou: it does
Santiago39_3: so, i git clone mod into mods folder and thats it?
* VanessaE: hides
Santiago39_3: do i have to enable it in world.mt?
mmuller: :-)
mckayshirou: yes
Warr1024: Dreambuilder used to be a modpack but the newer versions are a full game...
Santiago39_3: how do i enable caverealm?¿
mmuller: in world.mt, add a line "load_mod_caverealms = true"
mckayshirou: duh, i waited to someone to said since i use 0.4 and dont know the new configuration
mmuller: AFAIK, this hasn't changed
mckayshirou: well, before there was a mods.conf whit a plain list of enabled mods
mckayshirou: like : name_of_mod1
mckayshirou: name_of_mod2 and so on
Santiago39_3: the folder is minetest-caverealms, should use the folder name?
mckayshirou: yes
nisa: oh damn, that dynamic shadows thing is amazing
mckayshirou: if does not works, change the " - " to " _ "
mckayshirou: nise  and is amzingly buggy
mmuller: yeah, was about to say, I don't think the hyphens will work
nisa: mckayshirou: works fine here
mmuller: nm, then :-)
VanessaE: oh and yeah.  as Warr said, Dreambuilder exists as a proper game (or as proper as I'm willing to do :P ).  Since it's based on mtg, it'll work with most mods.
sfan5: you can restart the server and Minetest will add the lines to world.mt
sfan5: you only need to edit them to say "true" then
dwigton: looking for a recommended mod list for casual server play with young kids. So far we have just played the standarg game in creative mode, but would like to try easy mobs / crafting.
Santiago39_3: ERROR[Main]: The following mods could not be found: "MinetestAmbience" "plantlife_modpack-master"
dwigton: Also, is it one server process per world on the server? Do I have to write my own startup script to run different games on new ports simultaneously?
Warr1024: If you want multiple worlds then you'll need multiple processes and probably multiple scripts
Santiago39_3: ModError: Failed to load and run script from /var/games/minetest-server/.minetest/mods/xtraores/init.lua:
Santiago39_3: trouble with lua
nisa: Hold on I am not able to connect to any servers anymore
nisa: 2021-06-17 19:50:58: ERROR[Main]: Connection timed out.
nisa: this is all I get
nisa: Is it a know bug?
mckayshirou: nisa connectios error, probably wrong port or domain
nisa: nope
mckayshirou: also can happen when downloading big media
nisa: Happenes to every single server from server list
nisa: And it happens right at the beginning
mckayshirou: no cluew
nisa: Wait pinging these servers does not work either??
nisa: nils@lyllia:~/Programme/OSS/minetest> ping your-land.de
nisa: PING your-land.de(2a02:c207:3002:9452::1 (2a02:c207:3002:9452::1)) 56 data bytes
sfan5: sounds like you broke your internet
sfan5: partially
Warr1024: Try turning your internet back on.
nisa: lol
nisa: AHA ipv4 works
mmuller: Santiago39_3: is there any kind of error message under that or is "trouble with lua" literally what you see?
nisa: how do I tell minetest to prefer ipv4?
nisa: it seems to be trying to connect via ipv6 which can't work
Santiago39_3: mmuller, https://paste.debian.net/1201553/
y5nw: Santiago39_3: apparently you need to install the plantlife mod then
mckayshirou: COnfig menu -→ Advanced config (lovwer left) -→ Server/Singleplayer -→ Network -→ Server IPv6 to disabled
mmuller: well, it looks like there's also a problem with the xtraores mod directory
mmuller: As in the init.lua file is missing?
Santiago39_3: i cloned the repo into mod foldes
Santiago39_3: folder
mmuller: this repo? --> https://github.com/daviddoesminetest/Xtraores-
mckayshirou: it is direcly something whit incompatibility, just remove it
Santiago39_3: i see
Santiago39_3: xtraores has 'xtraores - titanium is unbreakable v0.22.zip'  'xtraores 0.1∆.zip' folders inside
Santiago39_3: which one is?
Santiago39_3: plantlife has some folders inside too, 3dmushrooms  bushes          cavestuff      dryplants  flowers_plus... etc
y5nw: Santiago39_3: then it's a modpack
y5nw: (i.e. a collection of mods)
* mckayshirou: leaves the big charge to others and go to eat ***
mckayshirou: [Away]
y5nw: Seriously though, why do people upload zipped mods into a _git repo_
mmuller: if so, I believe there should be a modpack.txt file there?
mmuller: y5nw: seriously
mmuller: Santiago39_3: as far as xtraores, I'm guessing pick one depending on whether you want titanium to be unbreakable or not :-)
Santiago39_3: lol
Warr1024: If they can't figure out how to distribute their mod sanely then that reduces the likelihood that the mod itself is actually worth using.
y5nw: mmuller: there is a modpack.txt in the plantlife modpack
GreenXenith: I highly suggest my fork of xtraores (if you want that version) ;p https://github.com/GreenXenith/xtraores
y5nw: that mod developer should lern to use MT configs
ghoti: What's the format of the xban.db file? It looks a little like JSON, but with the 'return' in front it also seems like it might be for inline evaluation by something.
Krock: ghoti: serialized Lua
Krock: would not recommend doing that but that's what we've got...
ghoti: Hmm, okay. So if I'm going to write stuff to interpret it outside of a mod, is it important to match the embedded lua version?
Krock: any Lua version from 5.1 or newer should be fine
ghoti: It appears from the README on github that lua 5.1 is being bundled.
Krock: perhaps lower would work too, since no keywords other than "return" can be used there
Santiago39_3: how can i change all false to true in world.mt?
Santiago39_3: maybe a sed command?
Krock: right. although LuaJIT is recommended
ghoti: I'm in FreeBSD, my easy options are 5.1 through 5.4. :)
Krock: Santiago39_3: sed to remove all lines that contain `load_mod_* = false` or so
Krock: err
Krock: *change all lines; not remove
Santiago39_3: i deleted the world, and it generated it again and the world.mt file as well
Santiago39_3: but all mods turned off by default
Santiago39_3: how can i switch them to true?
Krock: join the world and leave it again to generate world.mt
ghoti: Krock, sorry for the newbie questions.. What exactly is luajit? Is it a fork of a particular lua version? Or something that depends on whatever version of lua you have installed?
Krock: or rather.. to populate it
Krock: ghoti: it generates bytecode that is insanely fast to execute compared to plain Lua
Krock: https://luajit.org/
mckayshirou: so mods written in luajit should be alot faster?
mckayshirou: or not?
ghoti: Okay, yes, I know what JIT is in general, I'm just wondering what version of Lua I'm writing for if I install luajit.
Krock: no. you write mods for Lua 5.1 and LuaJIT is compatible with that
Krock: there are a few LuaJIT-exclusive features which might make your mod not well portable
Krock: ghoti: Lua 5.1, because that's what LuaJIT supports
ghoti: Righto.
mckayshirou: Thx
ghoti: I'm looking at non-mod stuff for the moment -- writing nagios and munin plugins to start.
Santiago39_3: well, i'm keeping reappearing in a very high place, and i cannot move because i fall and die
Santiago39_3: i deleted the world and it keeps happening, is this a mod or something?
mckayshirou: try using creative mode and using /setworldspawn in a normal zone
mckayshirou: its is probably you disabled ever mods and then the world is not generated
Santiago39_3: ever mods?
mckayshirou: every*
mckayshirou: i am gonna fix my crappy keyboard
Santiago39_3: but i deleted the world folder
Santiago39_3: and copied back the world.mt with enabled mods
mckayshirou: are you sure?
Santiago39_3: yes, i'll do it again
Santiago39_3: it is happening again
mckayshirou: it is better to send the world.mt so i can see what happens
Santiago39_3: this is
Santiago39_3: https://paste.debian.net/1201556/
Santiago39_3: tell me what to delete
Santiago39_3: or disable
mckayshirou: first line, set creative_mode = true
mckayshirou: and try flyng or moving around
mckayshirou: but everything is correct
mckayshirou: i have no clue
meldrian: aloha, need some kind of basic help, how do I merge the already built irrlichtMT with the dev version of minetest? It still says " Irrlicht found, but it is not IrrlichtMt"
nisa: meldrian: delete the CMakeCache.txt file
nisa: then rerun cmake
meldrian: That doesn't make it. How do I set the -IRRLICHT_INLUDE_DIR and -IRRLICHT_LIBRARY in a proper way?
y5nw: IIRC: cmake <dir> -DIRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=path/to/irrlichtmt/include -DIRRLICHT_LIBRARY=path/to/libIrrlichtMt.a
y5nw: (assuming Linux)
meldrian: you're right, its an ubuntu. so after i've done the "cmake . -DBUILD_SHARED_LIBS=OFF && make -j$(nproc)" for irrlichtMT I link via *include and *library to */irrlicht/include and *irrlicht/lib/Linux, right?
Pexin: I'd like a proper way to just put those in a file, rather than feed to cmake commandline
meldrian: huh,  it says "IRRLICHT_LIBRARY was set to /home/user/games/minetest-5.5.0-dev/irrlicht/lib/Linux/ but is not a valid  library file.  The path will not be used."
meldrian: while 'irrlicht' is the dir i extracted and built irrlichtMT in
Pexin: meldrian: lib is a file, not dir
meldrian: awesome... my bad.
y5nw: IRRLICHT_LIBRARY should be a path to the .a file (or .so for shared library)
y5nw: IIRC it should be something like path/to/irrlicht/lib/Linux/libIrrlichtMt.a
meldrian: "make" is on the run! thx everyone :)
Extex: What update was depends.txt ect moved to mod.conf?
Krock: 0.5.0-dev or so
Krock: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/71b2570f09
asterismo: my kid asks me if she can go to sleep to the bed or sit in a chair
asterismo: is that function available?
Krock: yes. beds can be crafted to sleep on them
asterismo: and how do she sleeps in?
asterismo: is there a key or command?
asterismo: https://wiki.minetest.net/Simple_Bed
sfan5: right-click should do it
asterismo: great thanks
wwar: Hmm.. on android version sneak+punch(leftclick) is not possible and some stuff need that to work 🤔
IhrFussel: It should work but requires a certain order...either first hold down the finger on the screen then hold down sneak or the other way around
IhrFussel: That worked at least back in 0.4.17.1, maybe it broke since
wwar: I know yes, in 0.4 the settings in android were different (they are waaay better after 5.0) but no now we can not use both
ar10ch: Now that my game is past the 50% finished mark and my server is about 90% ready to release - I have 2 questions.. #1: does anyone have advice on hosting? I was thinking home-hosting but I dont yet understand DDNS and my router frequently drops out. Also - and perhaps more important, I use formspecs for a number of devices, but I'm quite anxious about security as I know nothing really. Any advice greatly appreciated.
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
rubenwardy: Contabo was the best VPS I found in my research
rubenwardy: and netcup looks like a good virtual dedicated VPS
ar10ch: ok thanks rubenwardy I'll look into those. Do I need a domain name to use them or is it a case of downloading software like with vpn's?
rubenwardy: You don't need a domain name to host a Minetest server
mckayshirou: it can be directly to external ip
rubenwardy: it's a paid service, a VPS is a virtual computer in a data center
rubenwardy: without a domain name, you'll use the raw IP address
rubenwardy: it's advisable to get a domain name though
Jonathon: not to mention anyone can get a free subdomain.minetest.land
* mckayshirou: gets away
rubenwardy: yeah: http://minetest.land/
rubenwardy: there's also a few other free domain names
rubenwardy: but buying a domain name for yourself at least could be a good idea
rubenwardy: I use ctf.rubenwardy.com for example
mckayshirou: hey
mckayshirou: what is the ctf channel ruben
ar10ch: ok - minetest.land takes me to freedns (afraid.org) how does it recognise if my IP changed tho>
mckayshirou: good question, is that case most servers use static ip's
mckayshirou: you could set some sort of script to send a basic packet but in thqat case a vps is better
ar10ch: my router IP changes regularly. A VPS would be a better option.
mckayshirou: i mean , the external ip
ar10ch: yeah my router out-facing IP changes often
mckayshirou: then use vps, or you will need changing ip A LOT
ar10ch: cool - thanks for the advice mckayshirou
ar10ch: and rubenwardy, of course
rubenwardy: ##minetest-ctf
rubenwardy: mckayshirou:
mckayshirou: thx
rubenwardy: ar10ch: freedns and a VPS aren't mutually exclusive
rubenwardy: minetest.land is a free domain name, you can use it with a VPS
mckayshirou: yes
rubenwardy: You want a dyndns domain name system if the IP changes
rubenwardy: not sure if freedns allows that, probably does
rubenwardy: but if you're paying for a VPS then a domain name isn't much more
rubenwardy: or you can just use the VPS IP address
ar10ch: ok - thank you very much for the advice :)
Li0n: erlehmann: https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/items/nodes_items_crafting.html#item-aliases
Edgy11: does anyone know if windows binaries for ARM64 exist for minetest?
Edgy1: f
Calinou: Edgy1: not that I know of, you'd have to build your own
Calinou: and possibly translate OpenGL to Direct3D if Windows on ARM doesn't do that
Edgy1: o
Edgy1: thanks
erlehmann: does any mod exist that has structure blocks?
erlehmann: i.e. nodes that you place and they turn into a configurable schematic immediately?
entuland: if you need it to use schematic specifically, I don't know of any, but with my wesh mod I think it could be implemented fairly easily (but it uses its own storage format)
specing: entuland: ongen saplings?
specing: erlehmann:^
erlehmann: wesh mod?
entuland: https://github.com/entuland/wesh
entuland: it's also in the ContentDB
entuland: with a few clicks, the canvas blocks of wesh already let you do what you asked for - you place one down, pick the build you want to rebuild, and rebuild it
entuland: but it only rebuilds builds captured by wesh itself
erlehmann: entuland interesting thx
entuland: yw
entuland: there is a big limitation in how wesh works cause it forces you to restart the world if you want to use the _miniatures_ of the builds you capture
entuland: but just for capturing and rebuilding, you don't need any restart
erlehmann: yeah right
erlehmann: you
erlehmann: can't actually generate nodes at runtime right?
entuland: my main issue is that I can't write files to the mod folder at runtime
entuland: but likely yes, you can't define nodes at runtime either
erlehmann: you probably can
erlehmann: but i bet it is highly frowned upon
erlehmann: and breaks something important
erlehmann: but, as they say, when you aim for the stars, sometimes you hit london!
erlehmann: (and as i say: don't do it)
entuland: the API says to only call register_node() at load time, so it's likely going to fail trying to do otherwise
erlehmann: well, documentation always lies
erlehmann: i mean
erlehmann: that is not true
erlehmann: but it is good to act like if it were
erlehmann: just think of how cursed the map border is
erlehmann: many ppl think there isn't anything beyond it!
erlehmann: which, of course, is wrong
erlehmann: there are a bunch of crashes beyond it ^^
entuland: luckily they're normally far enough :)
IhrFussel: Any nodes you register during runtime (if that's even possible) will be unknown to clients
IhrFussel: Though it sounds not too hard in my head to just handle it like with the new dynamic media...new clients could receive the new nodes right away and older ones need to relog to get them
erlehmann: all nodes not in minetest.registered_nodes are unknown, right?
erlehmann: (i am reviewing a crash concerning digging unknown nodes)
Jonathon: Typical yes
erlehmann: "typical"
erlehmann: like
Jonathon: Nodes registered at run time technically are in between
erlehmann: is air in it?
Jonathon: Air is not a unknown
Jonathon: You can just say yes since people should be registering durning run time
mckayshirou: #enigma_oxid
mckayshirou: ah sorry
mckayshirou: i won a mute, i think
sfan5: nah
entuland: well, I for one am happy for that message cause I knew about that game in the past and forgot about it
mckayshirou: my father sayed that was a game for masoquists, now he is playing it
entuland: crabs, sourceforge down
mckayshirou: rrealy?
sfan5: !title https://sourceforge.net/
MinetestBot: urllib.error.URLError: <urlopen error timed out> (file "/usr/lib/python3.6/urllib/request.py", line 1327, in do_open)
rubenwardy: you'll just have to get your malware from ads like the rest of us
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Drop --videomodes, fullscreen_bpp and high_precision_fpu settings 13edf098d https://git.io/Jnn9W (152021-06-16T15:41:34Z)
mckayshirou: i never ever got malware: reason: never executed binaries nor installed as root
mckayshirou: There should be an option to specify the font size it first uses te WM scale, and then aplies the configuration one (tested to 5.3)
entuland: ehheh
entuland: it's not like all the stuff there is bad :P
mckayshirou: When you connect, register your nickname and your channel and get started. It's a new world. We're so happy to welcome you and the millions of others. We will be posting more information in the coming days on our website and twitter. Otherwise, see you on the other side!
mckayshirou: 2) After the past 3 years irc users got lesser than 1 million, 2)Freenode never used twitter 3) freenode will never be the same
mckayshirou: i am exited to see the graphs in 6 months
ShadowNinja: You mean this graph? https://netsplit.de/networks/history/top10_2021u.png
rubenwardy: previous freenode had a twitter account for years
rubenwardy: was even verified
sfan5: and irc never had more than a million users
mckayshirou: i never noticed a twitter account
rubenwardy: https://twitter.com/freenodestaff
rubenwardy: joined 2008
mckayshirou: huh
mckayshirou: the matter is that is dry bone
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04script@mt -> 03minetest/minetest: Update translation files 1388bda3d https://git.io/Jncmt (152021-06-16T16:28:05Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04script@mt -> 03minetest/minetest: Update minetest.conf.example and dummy translation file 13cb5dd0d https://git.io/Jncmq (152021-06-16T16:27:45Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04snowyu -> 03minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Chinese (Simplified)) 13ce0541f https://git.io/JncmY (152021-06-16T16:23:10Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Panquesito7 -> 03minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Spanish) 13165986b https://git.io/JncmO (152021-06-16T16:23:10Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04tirifto@posteo.cz -> 03minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Esperanto) 133474b97 https://git.io/Jncm3 (152021-06-16T16:23:10Z)
wwar: Hmmm..
wwar: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/854774781937582122/Screenshot_2021-06-16-20-00-47.png
wwar: Is this thing supposed to work in phone?
sfan5: yes?
mckayshirou: what?
mckayshirou: it is minetest but only the minimal development test
mckayshirou: in the lowe part of main menu you can switch the game
mckayshirou: and it is supossed , looks very very well
wwar: Ah, never knew that
GNUHacker: devtest musnt be built-in game
mckayshirou: GNUHacker, it is, because minetest-games is an added pack for playing
wwar: > in the lowe part of main menu you can switch the game took this one from windows version
wwar: it doesnt already exist in phone one i mean.
mckayshirou: should be
mckayshirou: can send screenshot of main menu?
wwar: Well now i took it myself
wwar: so it does exist but if i didnt take from windows it doesnt exist thee by default
mckayshirou: i is always the default
mckayshirou: it*
wwar: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/854776093918887936/Screenshot_2021-06-16-20-38-28.png
wwar: It is there for the first time
mckayshirou: in that screen slect minetest game
mckayshirou: in the lower left box
wwar: I know yeah..
wwar: I mean it was always Minetest game only until i took the Devtest from windows
mckayshirou: the devtest should work
mckayshirou: the mods are he same
sfan5: so what exactly are you asking about?
wwar: Was wondering if these dev things always worked on phone version
sfan5: sure
wwar: Thats cool, thanks
sfan5: it's just another minetest game after all
mckayshirou: (afk)
mckayshirou: (notice) Independant #56 is experimenting whit Host's
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/56 -- small error in builtin.lua
mckayshirou: this bot is actually useful
mckayshirou: There is a page about the lua api changes from 0.4.17 to 0.5.0 (5.0.0)
mckayshirou: (read): are the mods and core compatibles?
sfan5: yes
mckayshirou: thanks, gonna stay on that until lua api changes
sfan5: what
mckayshirou: gonna stay on 4.17
mckayshirou: because lua api did not change
sfan5: no it did change, it changes all the time
sfan5: but that doesn't mean it's incompatible
mckayshirou: i mean
mckayshirou: the code is more than 1k lines long
mckayshirou: so anything can happen
mckayshirou: i used alot distinct functions
sfan5: that's not a good indicator of whether it'll continue to work
mckayshirou: that is the point
IhrFussel: Most mods don't care about 0.4.X anymore and you'll be on your own there
mckayshirou: WEll
mckayshirou: Your server had 10 usrs in 0.4 now is empthy
IhrFussel: FYI your version is almost 3 years old by now
mckayshirou: Dark lands survival had 10, now no one cares
mckayshirou: there are actually alot VERY FUN servers in 0.4
IhrFussel: My server was mostly in the top 3 back in 2016/2017 with much more than 10 users...at one point I counted over 1,000 DAILY users joining
mckayshirou: whatever
mckayshirou: now is empthy
mckayshirou: also
IhrFussel: And I was also one of the last server owners to switch to MT 5 ... I always hoped that someone would create an iOS app that works with MT 5 servers cause those were a huge part of my playerbase
mckayshirou: most of these 1000 users were just bunch of kids willing to have fun for an hour
mckayshirou: yeah
mckayshirou: most mt players are 0.4
IhrFussel: The actual 'problem' is that Multicraft (the most popular iOS MT app) decided to make its code incompatible with regular MT
IhrFussel: At least regarding the server side
mckayshirou: well, as google does, the most popular rules, so people need to reconsider updating
mckayshirou: a good example is youtube, works on every outdated navigator, and very well
IhrFussel: I wanna run Minetest on my server and not Multicraft...and the only way to get 0.4.X users back would be to switch to that software instead
mckayshirou: or maybe switch the server BACK TO 0.4.X
mckayshirou: i dont see anything crucial new to 0.5
IhrFussel: That is not possible anymore...MT 5 added lots of features I took advantage of over the years
mckayshirou: real example?
luk3yx: MT 5.X has lots of security fixes, for examplehs players
luk3yx: Oops
IhrFussel: The ability to only load mobs on the map where you look at for example is a huge plus...it allows to keep my active_block_range low while not having mobs just pop up near the player
luk3yx: For example players can't just take items from the inventory of other players easily
mckayshirou: hmm i need to retraed because that is a huge plus, and also "taking items for another players inventory"?
mckayshirou: also the lack of optimization of 0.5 can compensate that
luk3yx: Hacked clients could take items from the inventories of other players
luk3yx: It was fixed in some 5.X version
IhrFussel: Something small: If you change the rotation of an entity in a mod it plays that rotation in a fluid motion client side
mckayshirou: a mod can fix that
luk3yx: Anyway
mckayshirou: these*
luk3yx: Actually a mod can't
luk3yx: Because the required callbacks for a Lua patch to the inventory issue were added in 5.0
mckayshirou: what about reworking the inventory system
mckayshirou: for example, on server side, is managed in a way
luk3yx: Anyway why is this being argued about
mckayshirou: lets end this
mckayshirou: 0.5: Fixing lots of bugs, whot almost no users and too much changes
mckayshirou: 0.4: lots of users who just are willing to have fun and do not necesarrily use hacked clients,, lots of bugs
IhrFussel: Let's just say 5.X has quite a few features and many many security fixes over 0.4.X and it was always a no brainer for me to eventually switch to it...I just hoped I could take my entire playerbase with me
mckayshirou: if they just did not changed the protocol
sfan5: if you think too many changes are bad I can wholeheartedly suggest Minetest 0.3.1
mckayshirou: actually, i develop my base foor mods there
luk3yx: Nice
mckayshirou: and the switch to 0.4
mckayshirou: then*
mckayshirou: sfan5 do you actually recommend something you use?
mckayshirou: or you dont even care?
sfan5: I don't use 0.3.1 because I have no problem with changes, if you mean that
luk3yx: How do you find the 0.3 Lua API?
mckayshirou: luk3yx : a long time ago i did not have the requeriments for 0.4 and then i just trial and error, then i built something usuable.
IhrFussel: Btw my server got 7 users right now...not the same as 'empty'
mckayshirou: huh you are lucky
mckayshirou: [Away]
IhrFussel: Since the 5.X userbase is much smaller the average a server can get is also just a fraction of what it used to be
IhrFussel: There are also way more actively maintained servers now compared to a few years ago
luk3yx: (Also s/Lua //)
rubenwardy: 5.x has so many improvements over 0.4: GUI API features/fixes, 3d entity rotation, entity API improvements, in-menu mod/game installer, many security fixes
rubenwardy: 5.5 will have new, fixed inputs, fixed fullscreen, and shadows
rubenwardy: GUI API features include styling, fixed coordinate systems, and new elements such as scrolling panels and hypertext/richtext
rubenwardy: Number of players matters less than the quality
AntumDeluge: Does anyone else experience very bad jittering when attached/mounted to another entity? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_wLibiHDdI
VanessaE: thought I'd take a few screenshots of the shadows:
VanessaE: https://imgur.com/empnX7F.png  ~~  https://imgur.com/itY19Ry.png  ~~  https://imgur.com/4A0N9yZ.png  ~~  https://imgur.com/0Vw8yJV.png
VanessaE: FPS is choppy, very high dtime jitter, but damn it looks nice
GreenXenith: One of the few times ive actually seen HDX texture packs look good 😛 :]
VanessaE: :P
VanessaE: https://imgur.com/7nrIb9w.png
VanessaE: (the world isn't very old, and map was reset a few days ago, so not much worth taking pics of besides the flora)
VanessaE: man Dreambuilder + HDX takes a fuckton of RAM :P
VanessaE: (almost 8 GB)
VanessaE: (fps jitter is high even with default textures, so don't blame HDX :P )
VanessaE: (as long as shadows are enabled)
VanessaE: anyway I guess there was a post somewhere on the forum collecting screenshots to show-off the shadows.  I submit all of the above as candidates :)
VanessaE: (well the last one is pretty subtle, maybe not useful there)
VanessaE: https://imgur.com/gmUlXT1.png
wwar: Nice shadow i liked the  4th one
VanessaE: yeah, that was "oh damn, I gotta grab a shot of that one!" ;)
mckayshirou: [Back]
VanessaE: (btw, HDX's sun image is a photo of the actual day star :) )
VanessaE: (with a simulated corona)
mckayshirou: The 4th shadow looks a bit rare, degradations are not correct but counting it is a new feature
mckayshirou: also cannot think about performance
mckayshirou: but very good
VanessaE: mckayshirou: yeah, the shadow feature is brand new, kinda buggy
VanessaE: my shadow render distance was set to 350 in those images (with a regular view range is 150m or something)
mckayshirou: it is like an emulated shadow rather than calculated
mckayshirou: kinda high
mckayshirou: relatively speaking: it is high only whit shadows
VanessaE: "kinda high" what?
mckayshirou: it is a very high shadow range since it is a brand new feature
VanessaE: oh, no.  that's actually the default for the "medium" preset
VanessaE: though I've tweaked the various settings to my liking
VanessaE: (the detailed settings that is)
VanessaE: still the amount of draw calls kills my FPS enough without shadows as it is :P
mckayshirou: yeah, very detaileds
mckayshirou: whit the time they  will tweak it
VanessaE: https://imgur.com/AEqryu5.png
VanessaE: those are my shadow settings used in the screenshots.
mckayshirou: i thinks lowering the strengt would create less sharp shadows
VanessaE: the strength is just the darkness.  the soft shadow radius will change the sharpness
VanessaE: I was aiming for settings that resemble what I'd see on a bright, sunny day where I live
mckayshirou: that is why how looks
mckayshirou: changing the default shadow setings should definitely change the looking
VanessaE: oh changing settings works fine, and behaves as expected, but that don't work around the bugs in the feature or the way the whole thing behaves on my setup :)
mckayshirou: shaders are already coming to enhance these shadows, good there is already a famework (the integrated shadows)
mckayshirou: frame*
erlehmann: ok so about the records. anyone knows a trick how to make the jukebox see the aliased item name?
Jonathon: @Bastrabun you lately were dealing with itemstacks not properly aliased, any ideas ^?
erlehmann: +       local name = itemstack:get_name()
erlehmann: +       if mcl_jukebox.registered_records[name] then
erlehmann: that is what happens there
three: <- Bastrabun/AliasAlreadyTaken
three: I didn't find a proper solution, since get_name() does return the "real" aka unaliased itemname
Jonathon: wait, im stupid
Jonathon: minetest.registered_aliases exists
Jonathon: just use that
Alias: Since items get "converted" when taken out of a chest, I solved the issue by replacing the items in the inventory of non-logged-in players on the database
erlehmann: Alias that sounds a bit convoluted
erlehmann: Alias could you point me to the “taken out of a chest” logic?
Alias: I can't claim I understand the reasoning behind it. But it solved the problem.
erlehmann: because
erlehmann: 1. shulkers
erlehmann: 2. everything else with an inventory
erlehmann: 3. echests
Jonathon: you could just search through minetest.registered_aliases, problem is the old node is the key, not the new one
erlehmann: thx
erlehmann: wait that is not a problem
Jonathon: you want any item that is aliased to the correct one
Jonathon: so i could have a1, a2, a3, a4 all aliased to z1 which your checking, so a1-5 should all work, but you cant look them up using a key
erlehmann: what i think: i want to get the aliased name for an item, so 1. i get its name 2. i look for it in minetest.registered_aliases 3. if i do not find it there, i take it as it is. if i find it there, i take the value for the key?
Alias: I do not have any engine knowledge. Next to everything that is implemented as detached inventory got their manual replacement as well, so those should be solved, too.
erlehmann: uh
erlehmann: i have to look into this
Jonathon: a1-5 is the key, not z1, so you cant use a key of z1 to find a1-5
erlehmann: Jonathon, but that is the solution i think!
erlehmann: i have music disks a1 and b1, b1 is the one that is checked by the jukebox, a1 does not play
erlehmann: but a1 is aliased to b1
Jonathon: well yes, its a mater of do you want to flip the whole thing with a subtable or find a better way of doing it
Jonathon: because you could run through all of registered_aliases and make it so z1 = {a1, a2, a3, a4, a5}
erlehmann: honestly this whole renaming of items is a huge waste of time and i hope i don't encounter too much of it in the future
erlehmann: Jonathon but what would *that* do?
Jonathon: no, the engine should properly convert itemstacks like nodes
erlehmann: i just want to know a version of itemstack:get_aliased_name()
erlehmann: <MTDiscord> <Jonathon> no, the engine should properly convert itemstacks like nodes
erlehmann: what do you mean?
Jonathon: erlehmann, flipping it would allow you to search by valid item key to get a table of all aliased stuff to check against
erlehmann: yeah
erlehmann: but i don't need that for *my* use case
beanzilla: I have updated my code so it should be valid... I am ready for another review I guess. (2nd times the charm? No wait it's 3rd times the charm oh well)
Jonathon: since minetest.registered_aliases is backwards of what you want
erlehmann: Jonatho many thanks!
erlehmann: Johnathon
Jonathon: also, i mean the engine when you register a alias converts the node in the world, but not the itemstacks name
Jonathon: oh wait, i have another idea erlehamann
erlehmann: tell
erlehmann: some of the best stories start that way
Jonathon: since taking the item from a chest properly converts it, screw that, can be ignored. do a on join player call back that scans the players inv. so like if minetest.registered_aliases(player inv stack #) then convert stack end, thus meaning you dont need to do any stupidness of flipping minetest,registered_aliases, and you avoid having to make every single thing that checks items check aliases as well
erlehmann: what is the performance penalty of that
Jonathon: how big is mineclone2 inv?
Jonathon: like 30 something slots? its just iterating through those slots once, and converting. vs running a check of all aliases in ever item that needs to compare item names
Jonathon: id say this is cheaper than the last idea
beanzilla: 36 slots, 2304 items exactly (If it's directly in same size as minecraft)
Jonathon: items are irrelevant
beanzilla: Right well then magic number 36. :P
erlehmann: how do you get to 2304 items
Jonathon: its a loop going over 36 slots, using a table key to check if it matches then convert
beanzilla: 64 being max size (Assuming it's max) times 9 times 4 rows.
Jonathon: so your doing operation x 36 times, oeration is is a key lookup, and then a itemstack swap if true
beanzilla: But thats not important since your going by per slot.
Jonathon: vs the old idea which was do hacky table filp, then look up on every item that needs to compare, etc
Jonathon: doing it this way, any mods for mc2 wont need to compare as well
erlehmann: uh its like 8 music discs
erlehmann: renaming them in the first place was a bad idea
Jonathon: no, the point of this is fixing the fact that the engine does properly adress existing itemstacks when a alias exists
Jonathon: this way you never have this issue again when you need to convert the name of stuff
erlehmann: yeah cool idea but i am a bit lazy
Jonathon: this idea is less effort than the last one
beanzilla: Get the main inventory of the player, go over each slot swap if needed done.
Jonathon: this is literally what i said
Jonathon: with less detail
beanzilla: Yeah... And it's sad since I think that be what... 6 lines of lua at most... depending on all the checks for the swap.
Jonathon: very cheap compared to a table swap
Jonathon: and iteration on the new table that you created
Jonathon: also, would require mods to implement extra checks themselves
Jonathon: this current method the game does it all for them
beanzilla: I don't want to sound rude or pushy but could you take a look at my mod again? (I just want some extra eyes looking over it again)
Jonathon: i could, but im already was working on my game, then solving/giving ideas for erlehmann's problem, looking at a game that might cause a issue from #general, and i need to look at someones server for them. ill add it to the queue of stuff, who knows if ill get to it tonight
beanzilla: Ok, no problem. (There is always later on) Again, I don't want to sound like I want to rush anyone.
Jonathon: fine to annoy me to look at it, just saying i might not have time tonight
Jonathon: there are other reviewers tho, look at users with editor or higher if you want it reviewed faster
Emerald2: Who do I complain at to get rollback_check to give me useful data and not just air -> air a  million times because somebody walked or flew there? XD
beanzilla: When I meant later on, I meant like over 24 hours... or more like 48 hours. (Put it on the back burner, it's not that important... it's just a game, not real life)
Jonathon: rollback is from the engine
beanzilla: Sorry to sound like I was annoying you.
Jonathon: and it shouldnt give you air air typically
Jonathon: anyways, afk
Emerald2: It gives me so much air to air I can't find out who dug the node I'm trying to find out about.
beanzilla: Is that in a log file? (Just make some filter to filter that out, but it sounds like you shouldn't be getting air > air)
Jonathon: no, database i think
beanzilla: Like Sqlite?
AntumDeluge: What sound do default:dirt_ nodes use for dig? I don't see it defined anywhere.  default:dirt_with_grass definition: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/c96cc55/mods/default/nodes.lua#L456  default.node_sound_dirt_defaults function: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/c96cc55/mods/default/functions.lua#L26
beanzilla: L30 of the functions.lua looks like that. (dug == dig)
beanzilla: If I am reading that correctly.
AntumDeluge: I wondered about that beanzilla. But it doesn't look like that is the case to me, at least not in functions.lua. Perhaps that definition is somewhere else.
beanzilla: In your provided nodes.lua at line 457 it only overrides the footstep sound effect, thus in functions.lua on line 30 it checks if dug/dig was defined, no, thus it assigns the other half of the or statement.
beanzilla: If your looking for the actual sound file location its in the https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/default/sounds/ directory.
AntumDeluge: I don't see dig anywhere on line 30, only dug.
AntumDeluge: But I did figure out through trial & error. The sound is default_dig_crumbly.
beanzilla: dig is equal to dug. It's the same action generally.
AntumDeluge: Is that defined in the engine? dig = dig or dug? Something like that?
beanzilla: That I do not know, It's only what I quickly gather from the links you've provided from the source.
beanzilla: Just look at the other functions in functions.lua (I don't see any of them defining table.dig) Thus I assume dig is dug.
beanzilla: Well take that back just saw at least one... hmm.
beanzilla: It looks like some of them have dig and dug and some only have dug.
* beanzilla: quits talking and leaves before he makes a mistake and gives wrong advice. (Or bad advice)
Jonathon: beanzilla: you wrote all the code correct?
beanzilla: Some of it I did yes. Think of some of it as a template, then I modified/added to that. (Unless that disqualifies it)
Jonathon: where did you get the other code from?
beanzilla: From default the locked chest... but a good portion of it has been modified.
beanzilla: I.E. Normal locked chest can not be picked up when there is an item, mine doesn't care.
Jonathon: well, let me see
beanzilla: https://github.com/Beanzilla/item_generator/blob/master/register.lua#L7 This is a normal locked chest + my timer and my changes to how it behaves.
Jonathon: im going to say that yours follows default as a guide, rather than using code from it
Jonathon: thus meaning your license is ok
Jonathon: if you had directly copied functions or blocks of code from default you would need to use lgplv2 or compatible
Jonathon: anyways, approved
beanzilla: So if I use the chest API default provides in my code thats still fine right?
beanzilla: I just use it rather than defining all that myself.
Jonathon: using a api is fine, copying it is not(without using a compatible license)
Jonathon: also disclaimer not a lawyer
beanzilla: Thank you, and sorry for annoying you about this. (Just my first time doing this, that's all)
Jonathon: no bother, everyone has there first time
beanzilla: So would it be any better if I just switched the license over to the same as defaults license? (Rather to a compatible one)
beanzilla: Just to play it safe?
Jonathon: should be fine, i think as it is
beanzilla: Anywho, I guess I am off for the night, bye and thank you again for the help.
Jonathon: np, night
lumidify: Hi, would it be possible for someone with access to the wiki to change https://wiki.minetest.net/Games/Lord_of_the_Test and https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC to point to #lordofthetest on libera instead of freenode? Not much is happening there these days, but it would still be good if people were sent to the correct channel.
lumidify: Proof that the channel has moved: https://github.com/minetest-LOTR/Lord-of-the-Test/commit/50d5dc76710528e6e1818bd9f030e8232b60660e
sfan5: done
lumidify: Thanks :)
Swift110-mobile_: sup
basxto: https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC why is mineclone crossed through? did it not move?
sfan5: dunno
sfan5: does the channel even exist here?
celeron55: did it exist before the move?
erlehmann: #mineclone2 existed on freenode and exists on libera chat
erlehmann: but
erlehmann: the new dev team prefers discord
erlehmann: so you won't find the devs in #mineclone2
erlehmann: i have an opinion on having discord as the primary dev chat, you can probably guess it :P
erlehmann: i correct myself, Fleckenstein sometimes showed up
erlehmann: but definitely no dev idles there rn
erlehmann: basxto you can come to #mineclonia if you want to, but i think in any case most stuff makes sense to be on the bug tracker
erlehmann: i mean, issue tracker
erlehmann: there it is publicly accessible
erlehmann: and discussions can happen even if not everyone is online all the time
basxto: ah okay
basxto: yeah, I remembered seeing him there
basxto: though the general room is bridged to matrix it least
dzho: the cool thing about matrix compared to most other bridges is you can see which accounts on the matrix-side are participating, even from the IRC side
entuland: okay, the spacebar works
Ingar: that's not certain, he might have tpyed ALT+32
entuland: you have a point :P could have as well copypasted :P
independent56: can you check my home-labbed paste works correctly? http://2.26.38.198/pastebin/test.txt
independent56: yeah... that happens. 10 second outages.
entuland: nice
entuland: "please let us know if you didn't receive this message"
independent56: i know... i was looking at an old html website i made, then saw that i linked to a .txt file, then i thought "manual pastebin!"
independent56: its mainly a joke i wanted to make
independent56: could you quickly make a paste on my service to test it?
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/stikked/Stikked/htdocs/
j45: http://2.26.38.198/stikked/Stikked/htdocs/view/750ae33b
independent56: thx
independent56: yay it works!
j45: Np, happy to help
Conrad: Well freenode has gone completely batshit
Conrad: https://pastebin.com/CeSQwB2D
Conrad: Thank you for using freenode, and Hello World, from the future. freenode is IRC. freenode is FOSS. freenode is freedom.
mmuller: lol.  "War is peace, freedom is slavery..."
Conrad: I lost op, everybody was kicked, and my channel was deregistered
Conrad: Time to make the full switch to Libera.
Hawk777: I managed to have my nickname removed from nickserv, without notification, despite it having been registered for years. I tried reregistering, but they haven’t sent the confirmation e-mail, so I suppose the reregistration attempt will expire in 24 hours.
Jonathon: i mean, if you still are with freenode for some reason, why bother to reset up if you can just move to libera 🤷‍♂️
Conrad: Jonathan: The only reason why I didn't switch my channel to Libera was because I was frankly too lazy to bother switching my IRC bridge over and since I still had several users logged in, I figured switching at this time wasn't worth it. But now I know, it is.
Conrad: I figured so long as the switchover didn't interfere with my channels operations, it would be fine.
Hawk777: I’m not “with freenode”, I just haven’t bothered to check whether any of my channels are still on Freenode or whether they’ve all moved.
Conrad: So much for the "effortless change"
Conrad: They promised "that nothing would change"
sfan5: did they?
Conrad: Well their website has changed. But when the whole thing about it changing hands first came out, there was an annoucement on their website promising that nothing would change and freenode would be completely unaffected by this change.
rubenwardy: They also promised that the management of Freenode would be separate from Freenode LTD, and the LTD only for running the conference
rubenwardy: but that went down the drain
CWz: i think the reason that the freenode severs changed to the new ones was to implement new policies or something
rubenwardy: wiping all the users and accounts was a student decision though
CWz: ?
rubenwardy: freenode has wiped all the users accounts and channels
rubenwardy: their policies have been shown to be user hostile as well
mmuller: I'm honestly perplexed at WTF they're thinking.  They're every move almost seems calculated to enrage their remaining user base.
rubenwardy: https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
CWz: Wouldn't be suprised if they sold data
CWz: or the data been stolen
celeron55: my viewpoint: this is lee's first fair move
rubenwardy: their incompetence did lead to a data leak. They managed to unreserve nickserv, which resulted in bots stealling user passwords and emails
AntumDeluge: Thanks @wsor. I thought my sounds package might raise some eyebrows & was willing to change the name. But I figured it might be alright since I didn't find any other mods using the technical name.
mckayshirou: Woooow
Jonathon: frankly I thought the short description might need to be changed, but decided it was fine
AntumDeluge: What would be better? Something like "A library for reading & writing mod data in the world directory"?
Jonathon: you called it a sounds library or something like that, and its just sounds from mtg ported to there own mod
AntumDeluge: Yes, it's a library because it has an API (just like default). Basically a replacement for MTG/default sounds methods.
AntumDeluge: At least, I would consider that a library. Maybe I'm wrong though.
mckayshirou: do you guys mean "writing a mod in world data, so i can mode the world whit these own mods?" like servers do?
AntumDeluge: I just realized I was looking at the wrong mod when I said "A library for reading & writing mod data in the world directory". That is the description for a different submission. Sorry.
AntumDeluge: I have a problem with trying to multitask... and I'm not good at it.
AntumDeluge: We were talking about https://content.minetest.net/packages/AntumDeluge/sounds/. It simply adds some methods for adding sounds to nodes, like is done in default. And I copied all the sounds from default.
AntumDeluge: When I was talking about "world data", I was mistakingly referring to https://content.minetest.net/packages/AntumDeluge/wdata/. I a mod that handles reading/writing data to the world directory, much like StorageRef.
AntumDeluge: If I understand your question though, my understanding is that mods can be added to <worldpath>/worldmods. These are mods that are dedicated to that world only.
mckayshirou: Yeah
AntumDeluge: But I've never done that myself.
AntumDeluge: I've just been told that it can be done.
mckayshirou: the servers do that
mckayshirou: so is theorically possible
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/htdocs/view/55475579
independent56: almost ready for wordpress. what do you think?
mckayshirou: checkig
entuland: what do you mean with "ready for wordpress"?
MinetestBot: luizsabino: Jun-10 09:13 UTC <entuland> you can use MinetestBot to check your server, run this without quotes in this channel or /msg Minetest bot directly: "!up your_public_ip_or_domain:30000" (suggested by sfan5)
entuland: good bot!
entuland: !cookie
entuland: :P
luizsabino: Hello. I was here a few days ago asking help to make a server at my pc. Thank you for all! I get, the trouble was at the ISP, I called them and they change the IP
entuland: glad you found the culprit and sorted it out
luizsabino: Now, I thinking about really to host a server. Wich do you recommend? a VPS server?
mckayshirou: anything even if it is a crap, can hold a minetest server
mckayshirou: unless you run alot mods
mckayshirou: obviousle need public ip open port etc etc
luizsabino: I'll get a root acess and dedicated ip, it's enough, no?
mckayshirou: yeah
luizsabino: now I'm executing 19 mods, it's too much?
mckayshirou: well, depends on computer specs
entuland: and on what the mods are doing
mckayshirou: and amount of players
luizsabino: entuland homedecor, moreblocks, moreores.... mese, technic, digilines....
mckayshirou: Any potato can hold that
mckayshirou: it is not too much
luizsabino: @ent
luizsabino: entuland teaching, digilines,technic,worldedit,travelnet,plantlife_modpack, pipeworks, mesecons, tubelib2, techpack, simple_skins, protector,homedecor_modpack unifieddyes, basic_materials, moreblocks,moreores,moretrees,biome_lib
AntumDeluge: Why can I not revoke privs?  /privs UncleDaddy Privileges of UncleDaddy: server, simple_protection, shout, privs, password, basic_privs, debug, kick, monoid_master, ban  /revoke UncleDaddy ban Privileges of UncleDaddy: server simple_protection shout privs password basic_privs debug kick monoid_master ban
luizsabino: mckayshirou I'll use with my students, so I guess about max 50
mckayshirou: no clue, always works
mckayshirou: Hmm fro that 4Gb ram and a Dual 2.50Ghz is NEEDED
luizsabino: to restrict access just them can I set a password default?
mckayshirou: nope
sfan5: installing a whitelisting mod is usually a better alternative
mckayshirou: yeah
mckayshirou: i were recommending that, but it is easier
sfan5: @AntumDeluge if your nick matches what's set in "name" in the config then you cannot revoke certain privs
AntumDeluge: Okay, that would seem to be the problem then: name = UncleDaddy
luizsabino: mckayshirou the VPS with little price is 1GB RAM, 2.6 GHZ (1 core) and SSD 20GB
AntumDeluge: Thanks sfan5.
mckayshirou: well luizsabino hope for the best, but if cannot hold it try removing  homedecor_modpack
entuland: honestly not experienced enough to be able to tell about your mod list, your players count and in particular your specs, but that 1GB RAM seems low
mckayshirou: specially for 50 players
luizsabino: sfan5 thank you, I'll see the whitelist mod
luizsabino: entuland and mckayshirou the VPS doesn't run graphic mode and with SSD ... can't stand it?
mckayshirou: if they were not too much players, but only running the core can hold it
luizsabino: my notebook, runs Ryzen 5 8GB and SSD too, I played with them with the server, my graphic mode and Meet call and OBS recording screen
mckayshirou: also some heavy mods may take lot of time to the users to download the media
Hawk777: You could use the HTTP media server thingy to improve that.
luizsabino: I understand, cliente side
mckayshirou: the problem is not the client, is the server, poor hardware on host
Hawk777: Either host the media yourself in a faster location, or I think there was a central collective thing.
luizsabino: Hawk777 I don't how
luizsabino: is there some reference
Hawk777: Do a web search for minetest media server.
specing: luizsabino: if this is for a LAN, then it's best to have the server on a desktop PC in the same network. Network lag is going to be minimal
Hawk777: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18951 is the shared public one that anyone can use.
specing: luizsabino: get as fast of a processor as you can, mt is mostly singlethreaded
mckayshirou: well, we asummed was something like a virtual class
specing: ah
specing: makes sense tbh
luizsabino: sorry
luizsabino: yes, a virtual classroom
mckayshirou: Well, try to stick to a good processor, the disk does not matter, and try removing heavy mods like "homedecor_modpack"
luizsabino: I was trying with server host at my laptop, but my students do not like so much because just playing at class time
mckayshirou: well your laptop is ten times more powerfull than the vps, try using it, it's the best option
mckayshirou: [Away]
luizsabino: yes, I guess very expansive that vps
jonadab: Just make sure the OS is something with a decent virtual memory layer.  Linux by preference.  Under NO circumstances attempt to run a Minetest server on Win10.
jonadab: I learned that the hard way.  Win10 laptop in the same room, has worse lag than a server on another continent.
Jordach: lemme guess it's a $200 laptop
jonadab: Pretty sure the issue was swapping.
jonadab: Which Ten handles exceptionally badly.
Jordach: swap doesn't affect anything if it's flash storage
Jordach: if it's a spinning disk
Jordach: you only have yourself to blame
mckayshirou: Yeah it is a 200$ laptop   " (18:40:12) luizsabino: my notebook, runs Ryzen 5 8GB and SSD too, I played with them with the server, my graphic mode and Meet call and OBS recording screen "
mckayshirou: Jordach, but if there is almost no ram swap is necesarry
jonadab: Yes, but which OS you use can have a very LARGE impact on how *much* swapping happens.
jonadab: Due to choices it makes about what to swap out when.
mckayshirou: i use debian 6 it is enoug?
jonadab: Linux handles that well, yes.
Jordach: W10 only swaps horribly when system memory is below 8GB
Jonathon: ironically minetest runs better on wsl than windows itself
Jordach: for the most part
jonadab: Makes good choices about what to swap out.
Jordach: basically dirt cheap laptops aren't worth it for anything
mckayshirou: "dirt"
mckayshirou: my laptop is dirt whit mese block
jonadab: Yes, if it was really cheap, he'd have said cobblestone cheap :-)
luizsabino: Yes, I'm on Ubuntu 21.04
luizsabino: The VPS that I saw ubuntu too
luizsabino: but hey my notebook it's more then 200$ hahahaha I'm on Brazil
mckayshirou: Ubunto is "xtremely++ Slow"
luizsabino: '=D  I'm on Kubuntu
mckayshirou: *sCream!!*
luizsabino: but I didn't find more problems
luizsabino: '=D :')
independent56: all my "players" are just visitors, looking at the map (and in one case, attempting to place cobble inprotected areas)
independent56: i hope one day, i wont just get visitors, and instead, a proper player. just like my playership with tunnler's abyss, building because "why not?".
independent56: and maybe i shouldnt creep out my players by flying, staring at those who play on my server.
independent56: just a thought
definitely_a: Are you Minecraft veterans playing Mineclone2 or Mineclonia? The latter seems to have more level headed project leaders overall.
definitely_a: I checked the issues on Mineclone2 git and oh my, was it a great shism... ,:(
definitely_a: schism*
definitely_a: &local=true
definitely_a: woops
independent56: how's my imposter syndrome? dont even ask http://2.26.38.198/wordpress/2021/06/13/i-am-i-am-not/ pls help me
entuland: if you really are 14 years old I guess you should just take it easy and don't stress yourself out over such dilemmas
entuland: just enjoy what you do and if you feel like it, put effort at getting better at it
entuland: mind you, that stands even if you're 56 years old
entuland: I'm 42 years old and I have never bothered even attempting multithreaded programming
entuland: there is no such thing as a binary "true/false programmer" - world is nuanced
entuland: world / life / whatever
y5nw: reality
entuland: that one, yes :)
celeron55: if you're 14 years old, look at other people who are 14 years old
celeron55: you're ways ahead if you just know what programming is
celeron55: no need to stress about it
celeron55: same thing for system administration
celeron55: continue the hobby in any amount and you'll still be ahead after 10 years
Benrob0329: Or don't look at other people who are 14, some people move at their own pace. I remember wanting to have my fair share of megaprojects when I was a teen, come to find out megaprojects kinda suck IMO.
celeron55: what even is a megaproject
Benrob0329: Some big endeavor that is expected to take anywhere from years to your entire career to complete, often with the intention of becoming popular enough to support its own development.
sfan5: something bigger than a project but clearly smaller than a hyperproject
specing: you'll be ahead after 10 years, but others will be ahead in social matters
celeron55: that's true, i would recommend the social things also
Benrob0329: Honestly I didn't really do much with programming until my later teens, that's when I started having (slightly) smaller ideas and seeing problems to fix rather than fixes without a problem.
Benrob0329: Started to, anyways
celeron55: not to sound super depressing, but it's annoying to try climbing out of loneliness at 25. definitely don't set yourself up for that challenge
specing: and if you are too ahead of everyone, you'll become a friendless social outcast
Benrob0329: I mean, some people like being a hermit, but most don't.
Benrob0329: Finding spaces outside of the internet can also help, such as a local Maker's Space, Hacker's Space, or User's Group
celeron55: specing: not necessarily if you don't build your entire persona around it
rubenwardy: university is also great for making friends
rubenwardy: the recipe just requires adding alcohol
Benrob0329: and making debt /s
celeron55: it's also great for not making friends
specing: celeron55: it's hard to socialise if you use things that noone else is using, and other people using things that you are not using
rubenwardy: in the UK, it's more like tax. It's paid as a % of my earnings over a threshold
celeron55: specing: -> also use things other people are using
Benrob0329: Ruben: Interesting
rubenwardy: If you earn less than £22k, you don't need to pay anything. It's a certain percentage of your earnings over 21k, just like any other tax
specing: celeron55: yeah, no. My dislike of windows/facebook/msn/discord/etc has not changed since primary school
rubenwardy: Yeah, Facebook is a definite requirement for a social life at university
specing: seemed so, yeah. I was out of everything
rubenwardy: all the events are organised through it
specing: yep
rubenwardy: There's a point where you need to weigh up the limited loss of privacy with your own happiness
specing: Thing is, I am happier without it (other than not having a social life, but you get used to it)
celeron55: ah, always so lovely when a megacorporation basically owns people
rubenwardy: you can probably make do without it if you have good connections with flatmates and such, and if you campaign the uni to list events on their own website
Benrob0329: I had Facebook for a year, then decided it was best left alone.
celeron55: i have a false throwaway facebook account for reading private groups, but i never post anything and never represent myself there
Benrob0329: Was probably a year too long tbh-
celeron55: i had an actual account in 2007 or so, for a year or two
specing: rubenwardy: the events I attended were all published in uni mailing list. There were also many that were facebook only, or required registration there
specing: which I obviously did not attend
rubenwardy: anyway, it's hard to make friends after university. Uni has the benefit of lots of different people, alcohol, and a general friend making attitude - everyone is away from home and doesn't know anyone
rubenwardy: but after that, you tend to have work colleagues, any groups you go to, and friends of friends
specing: rubenwardy: most my classmates weren't away from home. We don't have campus-style unis that are common in usa
rubenwardy: Our uni was a city university not a campus university, most people were still away from home though
specing: Alcohol is also no-go. It messed with your self-control. I also hold that if you need alcohol to befriend someone, you shouldn't befriend them anyway
rubenwardy: you don't need it, but it helps
rubenwardy: there are non-alcohol events too - board game nights, cafe crawls, etc. It's just an excuse to do something
Benrob0329: Funny thing about this community is that for many people (myself included) this was pretty much our wider friend group, and for some it might be their main friend group. Of course, the community was more centralized on IRC at the time and -hub/-chat was at it's most active point during 2015-2018 AFAIK.
independent56: celeron55, haha yeah. im only looking at those teenagers online who have already made a huge/contributed a lot to an advanced program. i fail to see all the students in school who prioritise "spending time with "mates"" more then programing in a cold, dark room, staring into a dark room.
independent56: and the teachers dont understand whatever i say about programming. any sentence i say will most;y go over their heads. i should use less jargon, and more simple words. but anything to make me look smarter.
rubenwardy: pretty much all students in a school prioritise spending time with mates over programming in cold dark rooms
Benrob0329: Have you tried programming in a warm, well lit room?
rubenwardy: communication is a two-way street, you need to communicate well for people to understand. Code switching is important for that, don't talk to non-technical people the same you would with programmers
rubenwardy: and yeah, generally a good idea :D
rubenwardy: My plants prefer when I program in a warm well lit room
entuland: independent56, trying and make yourself look smarter isn't... smart
independent56: XD yeah. i shouldnt say "i am operating a self-hosted webserver using XAMPP, public IPs and port forwarding". is hould just say "i made a self-hosted website" but the first makes me look smrt, so i use it
independent56: and the teacher's confused expression is worth it
Benrob0329: Oh man, I'm starting to think of 2015 like it's my own 1995...I don't like this
celeron55: you need to have a with mates mode and a programmer mode just like people who work as programmers, if you're so far into programming even your teachers don't keep up
entuland: even that one may be avoided unless you're queried about what you are doing or what you can do
rubenwardy: anyone that knows their shit will know you're talking shit
entuland: that is, just don't brag around, that'll be a great starting point
rubenwardy: public IPs and port forwarding? .....you're hosting at home?
Benrob0329: ^
rubenwardy: I guess by self-hosted you mean literally home labbed rather than managing the hosting yourself
Krock: if I pay for a VPS and set up a website, is it self-hosted?
rubenwardy: I'd say yes
rubenwardy: Ie: I have a self-hosted instance of Weblate on a VPS
independent56: yes, mum wont buy me a VPS, so i made a PS at hoem XD
Benrob0329: Self-hosted usually means not managed by another company, so while the VPS isn't self hosted your website on a VPS would be.
celeron55: it's self-hosted if you're the one to call when it breaks
rubenwardy: I'd say self-hosted is in terms of software management, and home labbing is in terms of hardware management
Krock: for a website you don't even need a VPS
independent56: just some webserver
rubenwardy: ah yeah good point ben
rubenwardy: nope, you can use a CDN like GitHub pages
rubenwardy: there are webservers but you don't need to know about them
celeron55: calling github pages self-hosted seems stretching it
rubenwardy: until the fastly outage happens
rubenwardy: github pages isn't self-hosting
rubenwardy: you're not managing software or hardware
Benrob0329: That being said, self-hosting has advantages and I encourage using the opportunity to learn.
independent56: what should i call it instead?
independent56: self-self-hosting?
celeron55: when you're a kid, of course you self host out of your bedroom closet
celeron55: that's how you learn
celeron55: you don't learn otherwise
rubenwardy: the term for hosting stuff at home is called home labing
independent56: ah thanks
Benrob0329: I was never allowed to host out of my closet, otherwise I definitely would have had a Raspberry Pi website up years ago :P
rubenwardy: when I was 15, I bricked my parents router by trying to portforward
independent56: i wish i had a closet to home-lab from. but i dont. i have to use some table, like some dork
independent56: i once changed the router's name, and disconnected EVERYONE XD
Benrob0329: Having a proper space makes you a dork?
rubenwardy: I managed to turn off the web admin portal and also the internet conenction
y5nw: I did not host from my closet because of security considerations/Internet censorship
rubenwardy: I fixed it by connecting with an ethernet cable and using telnet to reenable the web admin portal
y5nw: rubenwardy: oof
independent56: that must hurt. a lesson: do not touch live wires, they could bite back (dont touch a working webserve,r you may break it, like i did, or a router, like you did)
y5nw: In the area I lived in the ISP apparently blocked ports unless you write to them to not block the ports (which I didn't want to do to avoid some lengthy discussion with my parents)
y5nw: independent56: don't touch the apartment you live in or it will collapse :P
independent56: XD
rubenwardy: I didn't touch live wires?
rubenwardy: Is that an idiom?
independent56: live wires being a metaphor for anything people rely on,  and is working like a router, or XAMPP server
y5nw: also it should be fine to touch jump wires ... in most cases
independent56: the only communication i had to have with my mum was about the webserver - do not unplug or touch it. let it sit and breathe my  bedroom air!
beanzilla: How long does it normally take for a mod to be approved on ContentDB?
independent56: it took 2 days for me
Jonathon: Depends how active staff are
Jonathon: Which is very inactive
Jonathon: Whats your mod?
beanzilla: item_generator
Jonathon: Please hold
beanzilla: I'm not in a rush anyway.
beanzilla: I don't even know if it's valid or not. (I use parts of the default Minetest MTG game, and parts from another mod I was helping the author on)
independent56: as long as it adds to the MT modding community, its fine. my mod was literally a handful of mods put into a big blender XD
beanzilla: Oh, ok... well then I should be fine then.
independent56: imo
Jonathon: Your license is incorrect
beanzilla: Figured that.
Jonathon: Your using a model and texture from mtg
Jonathon: Default which is lgplv2
Jonathon: You could depend on default and remove that material thus being mit
y5nw: independent56: if I really thought about hosting a web server from my computer back then I would have to talk to my parents on Internet censorship/safety, physical safety considerations, the fact that I was going to Germany soon (-ish at the time), and possibly letting the ISP at the time acknowledge
Jonathon: Or change it to lgplv2
y5nw: Maybe make license exceptions? I have seen a few mods do that already
beanzilla: Ah, ok... well I will fix it then... what about code wise? I essentially use my own "chest" concept which is directly from Minetest?
beanzilla: And when I say "fix" I mean instead of just having the model and textture I just use the default instead.
y5nw: It should be fine if the "concept" does not involve copying code IMO
Jonathon: ^
Jonathon: Using a api is fine, copying the code that makes the api is not
Jonathon: (Unless you are using a compatable license)
beanzilla: Ah, ok... so then I guess this was a fail then.... Yeah... exactly... oops. (Well I added it in because I was thinking of adding MineClone2 support, but I might as well since I have decided not to to go back the the old way)
celeron55: https://i.imgflip.com/5d8nr9.jpg
beanzilla: So it would be fine if I used the default's api?
Jonathon: Yes
beanzilla: And the default's texture and models?
Jonathon: Yes
beanzilla: Ok... well I guess I will strip the un-necessary stuff out since I only added for MineClone2
beanzilla: Which I have change my mind on to begin with. :P
Jonathon: You could optionally depend on default and mc2 whatever, and then structure your mod to error if neither is found
beanzilla: I was thinking of doing it that way... but I'd need to interpret the mc2 chest to see how it works internally so I can add the same concept there.
Jonathon: Yeah
beanzilla: I've removed the models, textures, and sounds directory on the repo... but I have something else to do IRL right now so I will finish it a bit later. (Obviously now the code will fail, till I update the code)
beanzilla: Thank you for the valuable information on what is valid and not. (Didn't even think about that stuff)
independent56: you will find the information sold in a local tesco, given that it is so valuble
Jonathon: Sure, will be busy for a while anyways
AntumDeluge: Requesting a review for my PR "Allow setting nick for favorite servers in client": https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11202
Li0n: beanzilla: may I suggest using Mineclonia instead of Mineclone2? mcl2 is currently facing a significant loss of quality and playability, causing servers to switch to alternatives one by one
sfan5: does it still identify itself as mcl2? I don't see a single mineclonia server on the list
sfan5: oh one actually
AristotIe: is there a place where I can change how often water updates/flows
specing: yeah, abm rate
independent56: why did minetest choose the port 30 K specifically? is it because the devs wer elike "fuck it, i like this port, its round, fuck it!"
Jonathon: Because its outside the range other services use
Jonathon: I think
ar10ch: Can anyone help with mobs(_redo) ? I can't figure out how I can get the mob to check its surroundings (objects_inside_radius) repeatedly, on timer, instead of using a node/node_timer ?
calcul0n_: ar10ch, with entity:on_step handler ?
independent56: i have a max lag of 12. fucking hell!
independent56: someone needs to make a reitcher scale, but for max_lag.
independent56: anyways, question - in luacontrollers, how do i get the max_lag value?
ar10ch: ah ok, thanks Calcul0n I'll give that a try
IhrFussel: I'm pretty sure that luacontrollers don't have access to that info
Jonathon: you cant get max_lag without parsing /status
independent56: oh
Jonathon: there isnt even a api method for it
independent56: well goodnight, eyelids want to crash down
specing: There's a mod to add a digiline lag something something
Jonathon: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11077#issuecomment-817931472
independent56: vodafone mobile data down in my location. meh
ghoti: Is there a mod which will change body and head position when a player sneaks, sort of the way that commercial voxel engine does it?
specing: ghoti: I think you'll lean forward when sneaking in mineclone
specing: try it on clamity anarchy
ghoti: Hmm, but that wouldn't be visible to other players not running mineclone, would it?
Jonathon: fly and swim for 3d armor has a sneak animation in the model, not sure if it supports it
specing: ghoti: it's visible. Mineclone is a server-side game
erlehmann: sfan5 just to show how broken mineclone2 is currently (master & production branches), while backporting the mcl_jukebox API to mineclonia we just figured out that the refactorig never worked correctly and broke all existing music records https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/issues/82#issuecomment-24433
erlehmann: so anyone who upgrades from mineclone2 0.71 to a hypothetical future version would have music records that are simply not accepted by the jukebox
luk3yx: Could you tell the MineClone2 people about your findings so they can fix it?
erlehmann: i have stopped doing that months ago when i got insults as answers for my suggestions to have mandatory code review
erlehmann: also fleckenstein is aware of mineclonia and will see it eventually
erlehmann: i do not believe mineclone2 is salvageable at this point, except for carefully cherry-picking commits
erlehmann: and honestly, i got a conflict in the farming mod while cherry-picking mcl_jukebox changes
Jonathon: development of mineclonia seems very slow, and just a filtered backport of mineclone2, not that much it does itself and its not on cdb
erlehmann: > filtered backport of mineclone2
erlehmann: yes that
erlehmann: plus some other things
erlehmann: but honestly what do you want
erlehmann: mineclone2 has cool stuff, but you just need to look at kay27 server to see where "lets merge all the cool features" leads
erlehmann: that server crashes every full hour like clockwork. and often in between.
Jonathon: i mean, if your just going copy mineclone2, why should i use yours over theres?
Jonathon: personally, looking at both, there both dumpster fires
Jonathon: if your just going to filter upstream, as luk3yx said, seems better to contribute upstream
erlehmann: Jonathon clamity did and got from "laggy, barely playable" to "minetest goes brrrrrrr"
erlehmann: Jonathon look at the mineclone2 issue tracker. i am sure about 15 minutes with it will convince you that it is a dumpster fire.
Jonathon: if i recall correct they run master, and not releases
erlehmann: there are no releases since 0.71, which was already full of gamebreaking bugs the mineclone2 team post-wuzzy-involvement did not notice
erlehmann: for example, minecarts going off the rails if you pressed left or right
Jonathon: as i stated, both versions are dumpster fires
erlehmann: or quartz and nether wart not generating at all
Jonathon: and if you want to fix yours, eventually you will probably be different enough you wont be able to backport/cherrypick changes
Jonathon: *with git
erlehmann: well mineclonia is based on the last playable version of mineclone2
erlehmann: playable as in "a few bugfixes away from good"
Jonathon: anyways, did you look into my suggested idea for fixing mods that need to depend on "mesecons" redstone?
erlehmann: yes but i did not understand it
erlehmann: Jonathon for contributing stuff to upstream, i tried that several times. one time, for example, i contributed a patch for the crash that happened if you pressed a button at the map border.
Jonathon: yeah, i noticed that
erlehmann: instead of that fix, something that made buttons at the map border explode if you pressed them was committed first
erlehmann: which introduces 2 more ways to crash the game lol
Jonathon: more like they messed up with git and you through a fit over it
erlehmann: no?
erlehmann: then the developer i had reported it to, jordan, crashed clamity server repeatedly and bragged about it on youtube
erlehmann: or somethign
erlehmann: look i know jordan won't do that anymore
Jonathon: i mean clamity is "anarchy" so anything is free game
erlehmann: but don't tell me i should contribute to a hostile upstream
erlehmann: i think crashing the server is generally frowned upon
erlehmann: the point is it was not helpful
Jonathon: whatever, anyways, ill dm you about my idea if your not busy?
erlehmann: some other change from me contained a bug that made banners not craftable
erlehmann: but instead of reviewing it i was ridiculed for submitting it as plaintext
erlehmann: so it was merged to mineclone2 and then banners are STILL not craftable to this day
erlehmann: as far as i am aware)
erlehmann: (
erlehmann: argl
Jonathon: yeah, yeah, anyways, mind if i dm ya? or got other things to attend to
erlehmann: yeah dm me
erlehmann: but stop suggesting to contribute to a hostile upstream
erlehmann: i do not actually think they want to be "hostile" but it does not matter
erlehmann: it is frustrating to backport even the simplest things
specing: lol @ exploding buttons
erlehmann: specing oh i bet it was funny for jordan!
erlehmann: but think about what happens if you manage to chain the explosions
erlehmann: at some point you overflow the stack
luk3yx: I feel like Minetest has become a drama magnet
luk3yx: Many Minetest-related projects suffer from lots of controversy and drama
erlehmann: nah
erlehmann: not true
luk3yx: Even my statement about it is full of controversy
erlehmann: those who really have drama simply do not survive long
erlehmann: i am just ranting right now because i am very frustrated with what should be a simple cherry-pick of 2 commits. it turned out to be a multi-hour "oh wait this code never worked" thing.
luk3yx: Can't everyone just have fun
luk3yx: And not argue
erlehmann: no
erlehmann: i live in germany, fun is verboten
rubenwardy: people are complicated, that'll never happen
specing: erlehmann: haha, so true
Jonathon: as long as people have different viewpoints, arguments will happen
Jonathon: civil arguments are fine
erlehmann: well i was called a terrorist for suggesting code reviews. guess i shouldn't have done that!
erlehmann: also i like arguing too, but it's tiring
erlehmann: and it should go somewhere
erlehmann: pointless bickering is for those two muppets that sit on the balcony, i forgot their names
independent56: is there like this big list of digiline projects for me to work through? i want to see where i stand in terms of knoladge
erlehmann: <Jonathon> this also means that no one can depend on mesecons safely now at all
erlehmann: Jonathon that is wrong
erlehmann: you will always depend on the proper mesecons
erlehmann: not the mcl2/mineclonia version
erlehmann: Jonathon i guess what it means is that you can not depend on mesecons inside a subgame from outside a subgame (which is what the reform mod is doing)
erlehmann: but then again the reform mod needs the mcl2/mineclonia dyes, so it actually depends on the whole subgame
independent56: i am reading over a minecraft book mum gave me... and wow, buildcraft stole pipeworks. not happy. grrr. (i was looking for a skyscraper tutorial, some parts wich could be applied to minetest)
independent56: but i guess it is open source, so you cant really "steal". only "draw slight inspiration from"
Danil_2461: guy hear me out: what if distortion effects
Danil_2461: screen distortion effects
independent56: how would i unload and reload mapblocks?
independent56: without removing their content, just unloading them from my machine, and requesting them from the server again.
sfan5: easiest option: restart the client
independent56: ah yes... i wish there was a command like "/reload here 100". then i can get the worldedited blocks back.
independent56: what speed do i need to make ingame time sync with IRL time? i tried 24, but tha... oh wait thats 24* faster.... i have to use 1. dammit, can i ever read things properly?
independent56: well, i guess its time to quickly write a small mod wich, every 20 seconds, gets the IRL time and sets MT time to tthat.
calcul0n_: i've seen that on a server, maybe the mod already exists
independent56: hmm, i will look for one (anything not to loom through docs and code)
independent56: https://github.com/Yukitty/minetest-system_time
independent56: nice!
independent56: that way, american players can see that it is currently day, whilst they are just waking up.
Danil_2461: 😳
independent56: i do not want to sync IRL time to MT time. to do so would invite unnecessary chaos to the stock market. i a syncing MT time to IRL time.
entuland: syncing in-game time to real-life time is interesting, but someone would end up with a mismatch somewhere (or the two players in the same in-game spot, whilst far away in real life, would experience different in-game time, which would be odd)
entuland: I have a solution for that though ahahahah
entuland: make the game AR, bind it to physical location and prevent them from moving in the world if the device itself doesn't move IRL accordingly :P
entuland: and if they cheat and teleport themselves, teleport them IRL :P
independent56: yeah, my solution is simply to have the tiem synced to my time.
independent56: wait... so minetest sends packets to servers.minetest.net.... so if i send my own, i can make a fake one?
entuland: fake one as fake _what_ exactly?
entuland: fake packet?
independent56: basically, i send a packet with made-up server information. then they decode it and say that the server exists, despite having a name of "haha i pranked servers.minetest.net with a fake packet"
sfan5: it checks that the server exists, obviously
independent56: oh, phew!
erlehmann: i have a theory
erlehmann: theory: you can lag a server by connecting to it
erlehmann: evidence: i connected to a server with --verbose, which slowed down the process, everyone on the server had massive lag just before i joined
erlehmann: anyone have similar experiences?
y5nw: I suppose the server has a lot of joinplayer callbacks?
erlehmann: uh let me check
independent56: lets see it with trace XD
independent56: wow.... thats a fucking lot of infromation
independent56: wait no, it spams the chat
independent56: (client-side)
erlehmann: independent56 well
erlehmann: independent56 i think being slow in general slows everything down
independent56: cool! my computer can generally handle minetest and vivaldi running together with remarkable efficency, even with lots more mediumweight programs running.
IhrFussel: If the server lags as someone connects it is usually caused by the register_on_prejoinplayer() rather...did you mean join?
independent_: how do i disable abm logging?
independent_: it spams the terminal, removing all important events
independent56: how do people make their server have a loyal playerbase? i am very in need of nice, polite players to build and help memake my server better.
CWz: Good question
specing: Probably by being commited to your server and by making it differentiate from all the rest
IhrFussel: And by not banning people for fun or just because you feel like you've been treated badly in the community and wanna take revenge now
exe_virus: Yeah that too
wwar: In my opinion, banning who breaks the rules and not being afraid of losing players due to that is good too
entuland: not enforcing the rules and not banning the offenders is actually a good way to lose players
entuland: good players normally expect good administration and can easily flee if it is lacking
wwar: Indeed, so ur rules must be strict
wwar: Not banning who break the rules for being afraid of losing players will make the good people leave and only the rulebreakers stay
specing: Doesen't Catlandia, a semi-anarchy server, have the most players?
wwar: Catlandia allows 0.4 clients
wwar: As far as i know most(if not all) multicraft users can access 0.4 only
entuland: well, if the rule is "no rules" or so, that's what those players look for
entuland: they're not going to complain if they get griefed or tricked or whatever
entuland: and if they do, they'd be dumb to be playing in such a server to begin with :P
wwar: I believe if you want to make a good server you wont want 20-30 players online all the time who do nothing and not know how to play the game and you cant teach them as they dont use chat
specing: entuland: I doubt many people read rules to begin with
entuland: I don't consider such people as worthy players to begin with
AntumDeluge: Is this an official organization of the Minetest dev team? https://github.com/minetest-game-mods
sfan5: no
AntumDeluge: 👍
AntumDeluge: I should be able to use the content manager as long as curl was enabled in my build shouldn't I? Its not retrieving any content.
Jonathon: no, @《cURL》 has one thats actually kept up to date tho
Jonathon: @AntumDeluge https://github.com/minetest-game
AntumDeluge: That's official?
Jonathon: no, but actually kept up to date unlike the other
AntumDeluge: Who maintains it? BuckarooBanzay? I see he/she created a script for separating the mods: https://github.com/minetest-game/repo_slicer
Jonathon: yes
Jonathon: its useful if you want specific mtg mods as a submodule for a modpack/game
AntumDeluge: Official enough then. 🙂
AntumDeluge: I was confused at first because in my comment just before this one I mentioned "curl". So I thought you were referring to it.
Jonathon: thats nicks for ya
AntumDeluge: I was going to ask "I'm guessing that @《cURL》  is BuckarooBanzay?". But I see now that the profile image is the same.
AntumDeluge: So why wouldn't my desktop client build be able to access content.minetest.net? Is it because it is a dev build?
Jonathon: how old is it? i think nrz broke one of the dev builds a while back
AntumDeluge: It's built from master Git branch.
Jonathon: he also broke copying a while back
AntumDeluge: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/tree/c47313db6
AntumDeluge: I disabled leveldb, luajit, & redis. But none of those have anything to do with network connections do they?
Jonathon: interesting, can find the copy paste issue (was fixed) but not the content one atm
Jonathon: here we go https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11245/files
AntumDeluge: There is a recent commit about curl_timeout, but that is probably not related: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/b56a028d6bc101cb01f5bdfe07053ac1af9fb016
independent56: i think this captures the spirit of the slow lowlands perfectly: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/lib/exe/detail.php?id=human_areas%3Aslow_lowlands&media=buildings:sl:viaduct_spaghetti.png
independent56: wait... NOW you're telling me i cant host a minetest server in a minetest server? https://imgur.com/a/zgH2Pfa
definitely_a: hello, everytime I try to create a world in MTG, it generates with no grass or dirt layer. Any idea what could cause this, please? Minetest 5.5.0. Thanks
sfan5: sounds like you have mapgen settings wrong in your minetest.conf
definitely_a: Probably, lemme check.
definitely_a: Somehow I had managed to disable biomes... it's fixed thanks a lot.
erlehmann: <Jonathon> he also broke copying a while back
erlehmann: Jonathon, copying?
erlehmann: <MTDiscord> <Jonathon> he also broke copying a while back
erlehmann: is it possible to get the minetest version of the server via a lua command?
sfan5: minetest.get_version()
specing: I wish we could place_node with arbitrary rotation via CSM (by varying above/under), but it seems that the only result if I change above/under is the position where the node is placed. And this happens only if I change the z coordinate (with viewport (1,0,0)), else the node is simply not placed D:
entuland: above and under should relate to the face you're aiming at - under should always be the occupied position, owning the face you are aiming at, and above should be the free one, right in front of that face regardless of the orientation
entuland: comparing the coordinates of above and under you can tell the orientation of the aiming and perform the placement somewhere else according to that
entuland: at least that's my recollection about the last time I had to deal with that (and that's a while ago)
entuland: some nodes can't be placed in arbitrary rotations or positions (doors, for instance, require 2 free positions on the vertical and can't be placed sideways)
specing: I was testing with furnces mid-air, so space shouldn't have been a problem
specing: furnaces*
specing: Perhaps air is the problem, but those +-z test placements worked mid-air, so...
entuland: I'm a bit confused about the above/under thing if you're placing nodes in arbitrary positions - you should be free to place anything in any position, provided it's free, the above/under should come into play only when there is a player interaction (place callbacks, punch callbacks or the alike)
entuland: perhaps I'm failing to see your exact context
erlehmann: entuland so CSMs can place upside down corner stairs just so?
entuland: corner stairs are probably a special case due to some automatic system that renders them as corners instead of regular stairs
entuland: but you can rotate stairs upside down IIRC
entuland: let me do one test
specing: There's no indication of that being possible
specing: entuland: yes you can, with a screwdriver
entuland: oh I mean rotating a _corner_ stair
entuland: actually, do we even have corner stairs in MTG?
specing: entuland: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/ea7da386/
entuland: I may be mixing things up with other games
entuland: erlehmann, how do you get corner stairs in MTG?
entuland: I know I can place and rotate stuff cause I did that with my wesh and rhotator mods, so I can place stairs upside down or sideways just fine, but I can't find corners
erlehmann: entuland no idea i was thinking of more blocks and stuff
specing: corner stairs are in stairs: mod
entuland: okay, let me try that
entuland: moreblocks corner stairs are normal blocks that can be placed upside down directly just by aiming at the ceiling: https://i.imgur.com/6qvmQPl.png
entuland: specing, the code you shared looks like trying to place the node in the first free position around where the player aimed, I'm not sure what's the intended purpose and what is failing there, if anything is failig
entuland: failing*
specing: entuland: not in first free, but one furnace every 2 nodes
specing: (in the (1,0,0) direction)
entuland: okay, I'm not that good with spatial placement reading code :P
entuland: how is that code failing?
specing: It only places 2/6 furnaces, and only when z varies
entuland: okay, another query - normal mods should be able to do that, but you mentioned CSM, which if I am not mistaken are a different type of mods
entuland: is that the case?
specing: And they are placed side-by-side in the z axis. Not sure how that happens, since they should be spaced 2 nodes apart in the x direction...
specing: entuland: yes, client side mods
entuland: I have never messed with client side mods, no idea even how they differ from normal mods
entuland: uhm...
entuland: you're using timeouts or something to run the placement functions
entuland: but you're using the same pos table
entuland: maybe the actual table is the same and you're getting bitten by the table being altered "under the callback's feet" so to speak?
specing: No, just spacing the placements 1 second apart to prevent potential server-side place spedd ratelimiter from affecting this test
entuland: some kind of race condition
specing: I thought about that, but I'm defining a new table every time by copying the numbers
specing: Hmm
entuland: attach is a different object, yes, but pos is not
entuland: and you're passing both
specing: it should be (vector.add makes a new one(?))
entuland: not sure how that works
specing: Anyway, I'll try doing it more manually
entuland: try using completely different names for each position
entuland: pos1, attach1 and so forth
erlehmann: anyone of you experienced in debugging the minetest protocol using wireshark etc.?
erlehmann: i wanna figure out sources of lag
entuland: just for paranoia
specing: Yes, I'll do that
erlehmann: anyone of you experienced in debugging the minetest protocol using wireshark etc.?
erlehmann: i wanna figure out sources of lag
specing: entuland: I guess that was partially the problem. Results: https://wtf.roflcopter.fr/pics/8OpOOrUS/CM5NQGm6.png (left is when pos and attach are swapped in code) code: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/7eb68bcc/
specing: No matter how I place, param2 is always 1
entuland: uhm
entuland: place_node takes (pos, node) according to the API
entuland: so not sure I get that swapping
entuland_: there is no trace of param2 handling in the snippet you've shared, you're using it to change the orientation?
specing: I guess this is not possible, so I either have to teach it to use a screwdriver or make it pathfind around and place (mega harder)
entuland_: how so? the screwdrivers rotate blocks exactly by altering param2
entuland_: you don't have to use any screwdriver, you just have to know which values to assign to param2 when you're placing the nodes
entuland_: it's somewhat tricky because param2 is used for more than just orientation, so you need to do some integer mask juggling, but it's not that hard
entuland_: for instance, here is one bit where I deal with param2 in my rhotator mod: https://github.com/entuland/rhotator/blob/master/init.lua#L451-L453
independent_: sorry if my server has lost half of the map, the cat walked on the server keyboars
independent_: now i get why real servers have a remote keyboard
entuland: independent56, even just a screen lock could solve that issue out if you have cats around :P
independent56: lol yeah
entuland: also, kudos to your cat, they must be knowledgeable if they could screw up your map like that
independent56: but without risk of losing your progress, life isnt worth living
entuland: it's not easy to issue valid commands by randomly mashing the keyboard :P
independent56: easy "sudo rm -r / #wjkqfbiqbi93b 3 bd379"
independent56: but isnt that what movie hackers do?
entuland: if that's what really happened, you issued that command yourself to have it in the history
entuland: or you were typing it in the shell and left it incomplete and also left the server unattended with a known offender around :P
independent56: oh god yeah, i did that and did ^c to do a risky cleanup. cat must have done "up+up+up+up+enter"
independent_: what is the advantage of the "carpathian" mapgen?
erlehmann: rivers
independent_: and other things? why would i use it over v7?
entuland: erlehmann, no experience with wireshark, you could though try disabling mods one by one to find the offender (if that's the case)
erlehmann: entuland no i could ot
erlehmann: not
entuland: you may try providing more details about the symptoms, maybe someone can chip in after understanding the situation better
erlehmann: entuland symptoms: i want to see what goes over the wire
erlehmann: entuland while i play the game
erlehmann: entuland in real time
entuland: I mean what happens that you are defining lags
entuland: the frequency of the lags or what you're doing when they happen or how they manifest themselves, those are the symptoms I refer to
entuland: the lag / freezes may be client side and not due to anything related to the server at all
entuland: lagging and latency are also different things - you may not have the client freeze at all but some of your actions may not get a timely response from the server, and that would count as latency
erlehmann: entuland lag spikes on server
erlehmann: entuland every connected client has lag
specing: erlehmann: then you should be debugging the server?
erlehmann: entuland and sometimes some clients get sent *way* more metadata
erlehmann: i mean
erlehmann: map data
erlehmann: o rwhatever
erlehmann: who knows?!
erlehmann: entuland i recently accidentally almost bookbanned myself
specing: Reduce number of active blocks?
erlehmann: no no i want to know what causes *traffic*
erlehmann: and inspect that traffic
entuland: the amount of map data a client receives depends on the view range
entuland: maybe someone is just going nuts with their view range and causes huge requests "on purpose"?
entuland: as for bookbanning, you may as well have some player doing sketchy things and overloading the server - how to go about hunting / troubleshooting these things, though, I have no idea
erlehmann: entuland a player was standing still and minetest was using like 6 times normal traffic
erlehmann: and it was laggy
entuland: where is the server running?
entuland: is it on a remote machine or on your computer?
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Message for empty list output in /haspriv & /mods (#11149) 13dc165fe https://git.io/JZSeA (152021-06-12T16:48:21Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04benrob0329 -> 03minetest/minetest: falling.lua - Fix Meshnodes Being Too Big (#11307) 13fbcf0fa https://git.io/JZSep (152021-06-12T16:48:14Z)
Pexin: entuland specing: I may have missed some of the conversation above, but isn't it impossible for CSM to place nodes?
specing: Pexin: in default minetest yep
independent56: leaked photo shows 56i's crappy server http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=server_1.jpg
Jordach: almost on par with the EEEEEEE PC
independent56: i don get it
independent56: oh yeah now i do XD
* independent56: aiting for worldedit to copy a 165 K block skyscraper
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/hudzFSV
* independent56: still waiting
sfan5: if it says copied then it should already be done
wsor4035: erlehmann: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11273#issuecomment-842670087
independent56: oh cool
independent56: but it hasnt done. i am still waiting for the building to appear
entuland: uh
entuland: copying and pasting should be different things, isn't it?
entuland: (never used worldedit myself)
sfan5: independent56: then something went wrong, when copy says it's done it is
independent56: entuland, it does them both for you. you specify directon to copy, like "x 10" or "y 5" for skyscraper floors. it does the pasting for you.
entuland: okay
independent56: well fuck, i did "y 5" instead of "y 50" making a broken skyscraper
independent56: sorry, i lied. i did "z 30". i thought it was too close and that they had merged, but they hadnt.
entuland: eheheh
entuland: pebkac
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/gpMGTbT
Jonathon: looks ugly
entuland: ahahah
entuland: moral support :P
entuland: at least you can jump from one to the other
independent56: XD yeah
independent56: it is council housing.
independent56: i mean, the slow lowlands landscape is ugly. ugly buildings go in ugly landscapes
independent56: 3 flats built within 30 minutes
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/fAcIONi
independent56: council buildings
Krock: is that minetest r34 content?
Krock: jokes aside, good structure for a start
independent56: yeah... i just only built one floor, then used worldedit to copy that floor into hell
independent56: up, sideways, and soon, bakcwards
independent56: that is 5 skyscrapers in the slow lowlands, excluding the http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=buildings:sl:pathetiscraper
erlehmann: wsor4035 why did you link me that?
Jonathon: because you pinged me earlier
Jonathon: <Jonathon> he also broke copying a while back @wsor copying? <MTDiscord> <Jonathon> he also broke copying a while back
erlehmann: ah
erlehmann: now i understand
erlehmann: sorry
independent56: how to start a minetest server using the command line: "up+up+up+down+down+up+enter"
specing: I'm not sure if that's going to work. It's missing a rm -rf / invocation
independent56: XD
entuland: cat not included
independent56: XDXD
erlehmann: rubenwardy my friend Li0n actually used the wrong technical name for the MNT reform mod (“mnt_reform”) and told me the field can not be changed afterwards. the mod does not work if you download it. the technical name should actually be “mntreform”, without the underscore.
erlehmann: rubenwardy could you please change the value? also, I think it might make sense to make obvious that “technical name” means “folder name”
erlehmann: rubenwardy also I think a human approved it, but at least on my computer the mod does not work.
exe_virus: 1. Not only rubenwardy can make those changes.  2. Could delete the mod from cdb and reupload
Jonathon: please dont do #2
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood
exe_virus: 3. You can change it locally on your computer in the meantime
exe_virus: Also: lol
Jonathon: also, you do realize that mod.conf has a name field for the actual mod name?
erlehmann: 3. You can change it locally on your computer in the meantime
rubenwardy: An editor can rename
erlehmann: that won't fix it for people who dl it
rubenwardy: I'm busy right now
erlehmann: hmmm
rubenwardy: Not that changing the name changes the id, and so breaks update s
rubenwardy: *note
Jonathon: easiest way is just add a name to mod.conf
Jonathon: and let people update
erlehmann: but right now the mod does not work at all
Jonathon: yeah, and?
erlehmann: that means breaking the mod for everyone who downloaded it is not a problem i think
Li0n: mods on contentdb should and this one doesnt
erlehmann: or is it?
Li0n: how did a non-working mod get approved? you literally cannot start the game with it
Jonathon: wth, mod.config? its mod.conf
erlehmann: well i was able to, but it broke the mineclone2 interface in half
erlehmann: i was not able to start with it earlier though, no idea why it worked now
erlehmann: maybe different versions of the engine
erlehmann: (different computers)
Jonathon: >minetest-mod-mntreform-lawsuit-free 🤔
Jonathon: i could just un approve it for now
Jonathon: wth is this, yeah on 5.4 it broke a lot, and even on restart is still screwed
Jonathon: unapproved
Jonathon: it looks like normal node registrations 🤔
erlehmann: uh, by unapproving the mod the comment that Li0n wrote about it not working
erlehmann: was rejected
Jonathon: i fail to see the issue there
Jonathon: its not publicly listed anymore
erlehmann: https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/items/nodes_items_crafting.html#item-names
erlehmann: > Every item has an item name used to refer to it, which should be in the following format:
erlehmann: > modname:itemname
erlehmann: similar for nodes, i think
Jonathon: yeah, im well aware
erlehmann: so in this case, the mod source code contains the prefix mntreform, but the folder is mnt_reform
Jonathon: im more curious how the mod hosed over the world
erlehmann: is that enough to break it?
erlehmann: oh, what is broken in your world?
Jonathon: in theory if modname xyz, and you register zzz:item, the engine will error at you
erlehmann: oh lol it did break which mods are loaded
Jonathon: yeah, and broke it even after the fact
erlehmann: uh
erlehmann: here too
erlehmann: wtf
Jonathon: Name stupid:stupid does not follow naming conventions: "modname" or ":" prefix required
Jonathon: if you make a mod that doesnt follow standards
Jonathon: not relevant at all, but this mods coding style is terrible
erlehmann: Jonathon i know how it breaks this world
Jonathon: oh?
Li0n: jonathon, what is wrong with the book? it follows rubenwardys coding book standard
Li0n: I mean wrong with the mod
erlehmann: Jonathon the mod depends on mesecons, but somehow it breaking leads to the world saving mesecons as a dependency, which then breaks redstone and everything depending on it.
erlehmann: because mesecons inside mineclone2 is basically redstone
Jonathon: yeah, i got that much
Jonathon: im just not sure why the engine isnt complaining that the mod doesnt following the name standards
Jonathon: unless mods from cdb get special treatment
Jonathon: you know, let me clone this and see what happens
Li0n: normally it does complain
erlehmann: > unless mods from cdb get special treatment
erlehmann: that would be extremely weird
Jonathon: ooooh, hold on
erlehmann: maybe it has something to do with the mod.json?
erlehmann: Jonathon did you find the smoking gun?
Jonathon: do you have the mesecons mod installed in your /mods folder?
erlehmann: yes
Jonathon: his mod depends on mesecons, and when you go to enable it the engine auto enables mesecons from your /mods folder. i have seen this before
Jonathon: its a mixture of the engines fault? if you consider that behavior bad, and mineclone2 devs for being stupid and not renaming the mod to something else
Jonathon: disable mesecons from the gui in the mesecons modpack
Jonathon: and then the engine will give the wrong format error
Jonathon: and if you disable mesecons, your mc2 world will load normally
Jonathon: yet another reason mineclone2 is trash
Jonathon: even if you rename the mod correctly, technically the possiblity will still exist for people to blow up there worlds
Jonathon: for any mod for mc2 that needs to depend on mesecons
Li0n: yes I should make it depend on Mineclonia instead
erlehmann: which is not on contentdb
erlehmann: yet
Li0n: oh right
Jonathon: TLDR: the engine trys to hold your hand when enabling mods with dependencies and favors ones in /mods over games(which probably isnt a bad thing.). mineclone2 used mesecons and extensively modified it(i.e. didnt respect namespaces themselves) and left it the same name
erlehmann: so i wonder: can you make a mod depend on mineclone2 or mineclonia? those are basically the same, except that mineclone2 has a bunch of game-breaking bugs.
Jonathon: do what farming redo depending mods do
Li0n: in hindsight I did the dependencies a bit wrong in the config folders
erlehmann: Jonathon uh, what do they do?
erlehmann: any example for such a mod?
Jonathon: farming redo has a string that mtg farming doesn't and mods depened on farming, then they do a check for that string
Li0n: I will have to make a new release
Jonathon: also, farming redo 100 percent supports mtg farmings functions, unlike what the mineclone2 did which is stupid
Jonathon: erlehmann: https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/farming/src/master/init.lua#L8-L19
erlehmann: thx
Jonathon: also the engine allows you to enable mods in /mods with the same name as mods provided by a game as a way to override them
erlehmann: Jonathon good to know that its someone elses fault
Jonathon: well yes and no
Li0n: it is everyones fault
Li0n: we all failed each other
erlehmann: yeah, no one is right, everyone is wrong
Jonathon: ultimately its mineclone2 fault mainly for being dumb, the approver for missing a _ in the names, and those two combined creating a big mess
Li0n: if I had not made certain mistakes, it would have been fine. if contentdb had not made certain mistakes, it would have been fine. if mineclone2 had not made certain mistakes, it would have been fine
erlehmann: the catastrophe only happens if you manage to hold up a dozen swiss cheese slices and the holes randomly line up to let the bug through
Jonathon: LOL, yes this
Li0n: lmao yes
erlehmann: it's great, i am literally the only one talking right now who is totally free of blame!
erlehmann: :D
Jonathon: i didnt approve that package 😛
Li0n: I can't help but think about those 89 downloads my mod has. there may be up to 89 people now with a broken minetest
erlehmann: well, a broken world
erlehmann: minetest should really not automatically enable a mod from outside a game that exists in a game
erlehmann: if the game is that base game for the world
Jonathon: mineclonia still has the same issues
erlehmann: that seems wrong
Jonathon: it uses names it technically doesnt on
Jonathon: *own
erlehmann: Jonathon and guess what, we are locked in into that
Li0n: well I may have made a mistake in the dependencies saying it depends on mesecons instead of mineclone2
Jonathon: "minetest should really not automatically enable a mod from outside a game that exists in a game" yes, it should, its a way to override whole mods, just like : overrides nodes
erlehmann: i have somethign funny: i *think* that the mod works with both mesecons
erlehmann: the one from mcl2/mineclonia and the standalone one
Jonathon: erlehmann: not really, i think its fixable
erlehmann: ah
erlehmann: but you can not craft the laptop actually
erlehmann: inside the game, without mineclone dyes
Jonathon: just whoever fixes it will hate there life if they want to backwords supports stuff
erlehmann: so it does depend on more than redstone/mesecons
Jonathon: oh wait, you could just change the name, and add : in front of all registrations, easily fixng this, no aliases needed
erlehmann: uh?
erlehmann: i don't get it
Li0n: what a mess I've created
Jonathon: change all your mesecon mods names to mcl_modname, then in places that register stuff, just add a : in front
Li0n: here I was thinking minetest modding was entry level coding
erlehmann: Li0n the correct way is "uncovered". the emperor had no clothes the whole time!
Jonathon: Li0n: it is, till your depending on others mistakes
Jonathon: also: they will only have a broken world if they had mesecons in there /mods
Li0n: ah
Li0n: if they did not have mesecons in their mods then the mod probably still would not have run
Jonathon: while my suggested fix is not ideal, its the easiest for backwords compat, and keeping ones sanity
Jonathon: this also means that no one can depend on mesecons safely now at all
Jonathon: im really suprised no one has blowen this up before
Jonathon: considering its a popular mod and subgame
Jonathon: so anyways, im not really sure what to do, i would say mineclone2/mineclonia need to fix themselves first tbh
AntumDeluge: It is unclear to me how to "swap" items in a detached inventory: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/c9144ae/doc/lua_api.txt#L6083
AntumDeluge: I may have found a tutorial. Watching it now: https://nathansalapat.com/minetest/inventory-manipulation
AntumDeluge: Maybe not. I'm trying to swap items in/out of a detached inventory with the cursor, like is done by default when any item is allowed in a slot.
AntumDeluge: When I try to swap, the item that I am holding with the cursor disappears.
Jonathon: why do they need to be in the curser? just swap the two itemstacks from inventories
AntumDeluge: That's what I'm trying to do. I'll upload a video of what is happening.
AntumDeluge: Held item disappears when trying to swap in detached inventory.
AntumDeluge: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/852749293650575410/minetest_inventory_swap.mp4
Jonathon: what does your code look like?
Jonathon: and you just want the items to swap, nothing else?
AntumDeluge: Correct, just like what is normally done when swapping between two inventories.
Jonathon: code?
AntumDeluge: I'll link to my code.
AntumDeluge: https://github.com/AntumMT/mod-server_shop/blob/349d781/deposit.lua#L27
Jonathon: oh, you want to allow/deny swaps?
Jonathon: your looking for allow_metadata_inventory_move
Jonathon: L7746 lua_api.txt
Jonathon: err, ignore that
AntumDeluge: That only works for nodes, doesn't it?
Jonathon: yeah
Jonathon: allow_move l8258
Jonathon: there also is on_move
AntumDeluge: DetachedInventory:on_move?
AntumDeluge: okay, I'll check that out.
Jonathon: L5242 to L5250, shows you where to put the callbacks in the dettached inv creation
AntumDeluge: allow_move/on_move aren't being called.
AntumDeluge: I thought that allow_move/on_move were only for moving items between slots within the same inventory.
Jonathon: nope
Jonathon: allow_move = function(inv, from_list, from_index, to_list, to_index, count, player),
AntumDeluge: Ah, okay. But still, not being called for some reason.
Jonathon: did you actually put it in the dettached inv def?
AntumDeluge: Yes.
Jonathon: https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/items/inventories.html modding book has a example, similar?
Jonathon: or https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/creative/inventory.lua#L33-L62
AntumDeluge: Yes.
AntumDeluge: Except in that last example, they have forced allow_put to return 0. Perhaps that will cause allow_move to be called.
AntumDeluge: Nope.
AntumDeluge: I suppose I have to get the inventory stack in on_put & just move it to player main inventory. But would be nice to have the default behavior.
Jonathon: works for me
AntumDeluge: Ya, except now I have this going on. 🙄
AntumDeluge: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/852762813691985960/minetest_inventory_swap.mp4
AntumDeluge: If I don't define any callbacks, it works just fine. But ya, I want to limit which items can be placed into the inventory.
AntumDeluge: I have no idea why on_move isn't working.
AntumDeluge: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/852766619741847559/deposit.png
Jonathon: On move end has no comma?
Jonathon: Seems like that would crash
AntumDeluge: Sorry, that's just a typo.
Jonathon: Ill test some more tommorrow if you havent gotten a answer by then
AntumDeluge: K. Thanks for responding.
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=downtime:migration_failure
independent56: what path do you think i should take?
VanessaE: 4. reset the map, declare the world a total loss, and accept public humiliation for not having a proper daily backup plan in place.
VanessaE: :P
independent56: ah yes, plan ID #4.5
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4 -- cppcheck warnings
independent56: since it is not an intiger, then it cant be included
sfan5: just restore from backup ;)
independent56: would advtrains crash into glow glass?
entuland: I guess it's test time :P
Warr1024: Seems like there's been changes to the movement code in 5.5 that cause the vector.round(player:get_pos()) to sometimes return the wrong pos, i.e. one node too low?
Warr1024: I'm curious if anyone has seen anything like this...
sfan5: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10803
Warr1024: So if I have a value like -1.5 exactly, it used to be rounded to -1.0 but now it's rounded to -2.0?
Warr1024: That seems ... bad, but admittedly not any less bad than it was before; exactly-off-by-half values are always a worst-case.
Warr1024: I guess I can just force round-toward-positive behavior in the special case I'm encountering by adding a fudge factor
sfan5: yes
sfan5: if there's a reason why round-towards-positive is better/more useful it should be put back
Warr1024: It's tricky because it only really makes sense in the y axis, since that's the only place where a player having a coordinate of exactly -1.5 is likely to happen in normal play, and the only place where the expected behavior of that rounding to -1.0 has established meaning
Warr1024: basically if you do minetest.get_node(vector.round(player:get_pos())) then you usually get the node the player's feet are "in" but in this one corner case you get the node the player is standing ON.
Warr1024: arguably the old behavior worked more least-surprisey in this case, and there was no likely different in surprisiness on the other axes, so the old behavior is slightly more theoretically wrong but slightly more practically useful.
Warr1024: Now modders will need to know to handle this special case wherein they could code more naively and have things still work as expected.
AntumDeluge: Is there a recommended place for posting example code? I know of pastebin, but it seems many frown upon that one.
AntumDeluge: Actually, I guess I can just put my code in a GitHub gist.
Warr1024: I like gists a lot myself.  There are lots of other pastebinny things like paste.ubuntu.com or sprunge.us too
AntumDeluge: Okay. Ya, I will probably stick to gists.
AntumDeluge: This does seem to be the case. Is that intentional?
AntumDeluge: Oops, meant to reply to this one.
AntumDeluge: In my tests, allow_move/on_move InvRef callbacks are only called when moving items within the same inventory.
ShadowNinja: I use gists, but you do need an account to use it, which is why I don't use it for ,,(config plugins.FloodProtector.suggestedPastebin)  sprunge is also nice because it's easy to pipe to it from the command line, but the web form doesn't seem to work in firefox anymore, so you have to use the command line.
ShadowBot: ShadowNinja: Global: paste.ubuntu.com; #minetest @ libera: paste.ubuntu.com
independent56: there shtherou
independent56: sorry, hexchat glitch
AntumDeluge: This isn't the problem I was referring to last night. But it has got me curious because I know it will come up in the future. I'm moving items between slots in an inventory, but the items are being lost because in the on_move callback the inventory slots come back as empty: https://gist.github.com/AntumDeluge/0236efc1b2c22bdd454177cc3490570c
independent56: there should be a worldedit competiton where you buid something in worldedit and x does y to z.... oh wait, i made the idea, and am capable of hosting it... oh golly, i need to host it!
AntumDeluge: I'm using Minetest version 5.4.1.
AntumDeluge: This is my full test code: https://gist.github.com/AntumDeluge/cce0c653d817205685b268b318302432
AntumDeluge: Here is a demonstration of what is happening with this code.
AntumDeluge: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/852968393756901406/minetest_detached_inv_swap.mp4
AntumDeluge: Moving between two different inventories works fine as long as the target slot is empty or contains the same item.
Krock: are you re-inventing the stack movement code?
AntumDeluge: I have no idea. I posted the code above.
AntumDeluge: Edited: had some return calls in the on_ methods that didn't do anything.
AntumDeluge: How do I preserve the stack movement code?
Krock: don't use inventory functions in the callbacks
Krock: use the "count" and "itemstack" return values to change the amount of moved items
AntumDeluge: Oh, I see. Thank you. I will give that a try.
Krock: it's best to do everything in the allow_* callbacks to not deal with the on_* afterwards
AntumDeluge: Okay. I've done that before, but thought in this case it was better to go through to the on_* callbacks.
Krock: on_* is called when the real movement happens (after finding out what's allowed to move), hence you'd use that for messages like "player X moved Y from Z to A"
AntumDeluge: Makes sense.
Krock: to forbid moving of a certain item, return 0 in a allow_* callback
Krock: or to move stacks of size 1, return 1 respectively.
Krock: any calls to inventory functions within inventory callbacks outright ask for item duplications and loss to happen
AntumDeluge: So by just setting the allow_* callbacks to return -1 should be regular behavior, right? By doing that, my items just disappear. That's why I started filling out the on_* callbacks.
AntumDeluge: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/852974643665174558/minetest_detached_inv.mp4
AntumDeluge: Here is the code for that: https://gist.github.com/AntumDeluge/e5689383c9c4513a8e161e6190e4e79c
Sokomine: is someone familiar with minetest.dig_node and minetest.place_node? i was hoping to be able to use it for an npc (instead of either add/set node or the way the nodebreaker and deployer goes)
Sokomine: the results are a bit..unexpected. dig_node digs the node all right - but then drops the drops as items. and place_node does not place the block at the target position if there is air beneath...
specing: How do working villagers do it?
celeron55: they could work, and were originally designed so that they could work, but probably nobody has ever used them in that way so it's probably not tested and broken, and other mods can definitely break
Sokomine: it'd be nice to be able to understand the logic behind them and what they where invented for
Sokomine: specing: ah. seems working_villagers encountered the same problem with digging a node and uses code to circumvent it. but that strange oddity with placing a node doesn't seem to be an issue there
celeron55: hmm, actually, i was thinking something else
celeron55: these definitely should work
Sokomine: a player looking downward on a block of air couldn't place the block that way either. perhaps it tries to emulate that
celeron55: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/lua_api/l_env.cpp#L461
celeron55: it needs to generate a PointedThing in order to call the on_place callback
celeron55: and looks like it uses the node below as the "under surface" position
celeron55: that's weird, i think pointed thing can actually have both as the same position, no?
Sokomine: hm. perhaps not for placing
celeron55: maybe it would break something
Sokomine: could be. it does say after all that it places like a player. a player would look at a diffrent node where he could place the new one against
Sokomine: great that you found that place!
celeron55: an issue needs to be reported on this
celeron55: the solution doesn't seem obvious
Sokomine: if it's known it can be handed in the code: look if there's air below - if so, increase your position by 1
Sokomine: doesn't seem very clean but will most likely work
celeron55: well at least it has to be documented
Sokomine: that's right
Sokomine: are you going to? after all you found the right location :-)
celeron55: about dig_node: it seems there should be a version where you can control where the drops go
celeron55: nah... i'm just passing by 8-)
Sokomine: yes. that would be fine. after all the npc does have an inventory - and gets its drops in there manually. having that handled by mt directly would be helpful
Sokomine: :-)
celeron55: but what happens with drops is game specific so i'm not sure what kind of control there even can be
celeron55: i guess ideally the drops should simply be a return value, but that could be very complicated to implement
Sokomine: the server admin of the your land server (Alias) has created a nice mod which allows rpg-like talking with npc. it's a very powerful mod that even allows execution of any lua code. i'm tuning it down so that it can hopefully be safely used by players
specing: Sokomine | a player looking downward on a block of air couldn't place the block that way either.
specing: I can :P
Sokomine: perhaps just an optional inventory as target location? and if there's none drop the items like now. after all an entity like an npc won't have item_pickup
Sokomine: with a modified client you can do almost anything. but in general you can't place *on* air if you point at the air
specing: true
specing: I don't yet know how to CSM place nodes with rotation
celeron55: dig_node seems to simply call the on_dig method of the target node with an uninitialized/dummy ObjectRef, and then core.handle_node_drops looks at that and sees it doesn't have an inventory and drops the items on the ground
celeron55: being able to pass an ObjectRef to dig_node could be useful
Sokomine: definitely
celeron55: to be the digger
celeron55: if the digger has an inventory, it would put the drops into the "main" list
celeron55: just like for a player
independent56: i have made a huge skyscraper base... and wrodledit is still trying to cpy it upwards.
Sokomine: trouble with some normal functions (on_rightclick will give me some trouble there i fear) is that they usually expect a player to be the actor - and will at best do nothing if the acting thing doesn't have a player name. but it'd be helpful to have these fucntions work
celeron55: that's worth an issue on github also, i think that feature could be added
Sokomine: that'd be great :-)
celeron55: but i would warn that even while the engine can support all of those objects not being players, i'm sure many mods will break
Sokomine: independent56: if the area wasn't loaded before that may happen. and it may take a while if it's a very huge skyscraper
Sokomine: yes. i fear less with digging/placing - after all many mods do that to some degree...but right-click will be a real pain in that regard
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/pJn362F
independent56: this is the base
Sokomine: can't see because of javascript. hope it has many nice details as well
independent56: https://i.imgur.com/bFqB3vO.png here is the raw image
Sokomine: for npc, it would be really great if some things in the world could be more unversal. like "this is a door". would make life way easier for them
independent56: and it has boring floors. just 6 elevators per floor, and a sandbox to build in.
independent56: this is the slow lowlands, a place under development and rebuilding, turning it from swamp to city.
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=nature:slow_lowlands
independent56: old screenshot
Sokomine: ah. hope you can sell the appartments in the skyscraper to intrested players :-)
independent56: XD yeah good idea. i am planning on selling floors instea dof using rental panels, mainly because the players will ahve a nice, large, prebuilt home to furnish ( ybut the windows and supports are vunurable)
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/NdjXuGe
independent56: here is a ncie comaprison image. i wish for the skyscraper to go as high as possible before it goes out of porportion.
Sokomine: a player on tunneler's abyss has built great and intresting skyscrapers by hand. sadly he left and asked for his buildings to be removed
independent56: andreasbadger... yeah i remember seeing the screenshots. dammit! i should have kept them. meh.
Warr1024: That "I'm leaving and taking my stuff with me too" thing can really mess with a server if builds are collaborative or people build their stuff based on what's around it.
Warr1024: I require players to CC0-license what they build as a condition of joining my server to prevent those kinds of issues.
independent56: hmm
independent56: i need to add that to mine
Warr1024: The license is reciprocal.  That means they give up the ability to revoke access to what they build, but in exchange, they get access to everything everybody else builds.  Client-saving is encouraged, and I even offer nightly backup snapshots for download.
AntumDeluge: Why does setting allow_put in detached inventory to return -1 not use the default behavior? Instead, my item just disappears: https://gist.github.com/AntumDeluge/e5689383c9c4513a8e161e6190e4e79c
Warr1024: As a side effect, players can take charge of their own backups, and the world can be recovered even if I suddenly just ghost and take down the server one day, hence no hometown-esque situations.
AntumDeluge: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/852991779082207252/minetest_detached_inv.mp4
Warr1024: As a result, because players know that they cannot be locked away from access from their own stuff either, that means they can feel free to build with confidence and invest their time into the server without worry of having it arbitrarily lost.
Warr1024: AntumDeluge: Is -1 supposed to be some kind of special value that's documented as doing the default thing?
Warr1024: I'd expect using a value like nil or true or false or +infinity would make more sense, and a special -1 value is sort of a C-ism.
AntumDeluge: I was just about to test stack:get_count(). But I did read somewhere that -1 allows any amount. Perhaps that was for a different inventory type.
Warr1024: Could be, could be for a different hook, or maybe it's just consistently inconsistent.
AntumDeluge: Yes, I see now that returning stack:get_count() does indeed work.
Warr1024: If the documentation either (1) says -1 should work, or (2) doesn't say for this particular use, but does say it should work for some other use, hence at least implying it should work, then I'd call that at minimum a documentation bug, if not worse...
Krock: -1 means infinite source or sink
AntumDeluge: So, it's not my fault & I'm not completely dumb? 😉
AntumDeluge: Yes! it's working as desired. Thank you.
Krock: !next
MinetestBot: Another satisfied customer. Next!
Warr1024: -1 is just not a particularly good value to choose for a "special case" kind of value for a Lua API.
AntumDeluge: So -1 isn't documented correctly?
Warr1024: I mean, if you're working in C and the type is constrained to an integer and you have this whole negative range that can only have special meanings, it makes sense from that side
Warr1024: but to a lua modder, the lua API looks like it's just lua, and the idea that it would have to be an integer doesn't make sense from that side.
Warr1024: just nil would have made probably the best return value to indicate "just do the default thing"...
Warr1024: either way, though, given that that IS the design, for better or worse, it sounds like the documentation could be improved...
AntumDeluge: This might be where I read it, but not sure if it is meant to apply to detached inventory: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/c9144ae/doc/lua_api.txt#L4782
AntumDeluge: Looks like that is specifically for player inventories.
AntumDeluge: Not sure if you were saying this was already implemented, but returning nil does not work: ServerError: AsyncErr: ServerThread::run Lua: allow_put should return a number.
Warr1024: ick
independent56: what meterial would i use for a patwhay in sand? what in your experience has worked well?
independent56: eh, gonna use baked clay
independent56: 3.3 different inventory items
independent56: K
independent56: 3399 different ones
independent56: my skyscraper is brilliant... its liek a big flat block of flats.
independent56: https://imgur.com/a/MyTtunM
independent56: here
independent56: and you can see the other skyscraper, envious
specing: roads look boring, terrain looks boring, skyscraper looks boring
specing: and websites shouldn't require javascript to display images
specing: Anyone can grab worldedit and copy paste the same boring floor hundreds of times
independent56: i know. but i love that skyscraper.
independent56: i am very proud of it.
Warr1024: If you're planning on selling/renting space, you'd be best off just giving it away for free to early adopters until your world has reached a critical enough mass.
Warr1024: Basically use network effects to make property values increase.
entuland: would that cause the world to become a black hole and suck in the hard disk, computer, desk, user, room and so forth?
independent56: lol
independent56: i will sell them  incredibly cheaply. like 10 currency units for an entire floor
independent56: sorry, italic error
Warr1024: It's a bit hard to sell space on a server that doesn't have a lot going on yet and actually charge players money for the privilege ... but then maybe you and Thorstein Veblen know something I don't.
independent56: well, you get 30 mg starter cash. 33% of your money for a home isnt that  bad
independent56: if you dont understand the pain of slef-hosting, think of how i sleep to the sound of computer fans every night. and blue lights shining on the table
independent56: but i like the pain
y5nw: Make sure you have adaquate fire protection there
independent56: XD nah, if it overheats, it will automagically shut down
* independent56: checks for temeperature-checking command line tools, so he can do that automatically
Warr1024: you just need to host on a machine that's in a different room than the one you sleep in.
y5nw: and remember to put some butter into the toaster and turn it on before you go to bed :P (seriously don't)
AntumDeluge: Is there a maintained version of snowdrift? https://github.com/paramat/snowdrift
logger56: ahrghhh fuck 56independent. he trats me like some dedicated server! i am not! i am just a samsung NC10 he treats poorly! why does he think i an suddenly host minetest? i will burst into flames, i fucking swear to god.
Jordach: who let the shitpostbot get sentience in here
j45: https://c.tenor.com/YQuM7wQo708AAAAM/ban-hammer.gif
Warr1024: Nobody likes 56i, not even his alts.
j45: xD
* logger56: suffers form melatonin drunkness yet again
AntumDeluge: I wanted to report an issue about effects not being shown through semi-transparency. Though, I'm not sure if it is an issue with the mod or with the engine.
AntumDeluge: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/853036651146903552/snowdrift_semi_transparency.mp4
sfan5: that's a longstanding engine issue
AntumDeluge: Okay.
logger56: i think clouds need to stop going insid ebuildings. my skyscraper's  40th floor is very wet because of all the clouds condensing.
Warr1024: No, indoor air quality is usually way worse than outdoor, you WANT that ventilation.
logger56: XD
logger56: well goodnight, i want all the voices to go away /j
Warr1024: Antum: your best bet is to use semitransparency sparingly.  Fixing these problems would be Hard, so don't expect any miracles soon.
AntumDeluge: I'm not worried about it. I just thought it might be an issue with the snowdrift mod specifically. So was going to report it.
Warr1024: I keep seeing snowdrift as snowd-rift instead of snow-drift
sfan5: systemd-snowd
AntumDeluge: I am curious why snowdrift is no longer maintained. paramat archived the repository. Are the other weather mods preferred over it? I think snowdrift is the only one I have ever used.
Jonathon: Paramat archieved everything
Jonathon: Gotta look at the bigger picture
AntumDeluge: paramat is not active anymore?
Jonathon: his patereon said so before he deleted it, long time ago
AntumDeluge: Looks like his latest activity on GitHub was a commit to minetest_game in may. Only two commits total this year.
AntumDeluge: *May
Jonathon: 🤷‍♂️
luizsabino: MinetestBot thank you, I see this pdf, but it's old, my router dont has the same options like fowarding port just virtual server and dmz, I setup both and doesn't work
entuland: eheehh, the bot taking all the credit :P
entuland: what's your router model?
luizsabino: :')  entuland I'm noob, sorry
entuland: np :)
luizsabino: my router is TOTOLINK A3002R v2
luizsabino: I'm start the server on terminal with minetest --server --worldname My World --terminal. Is right?
entuland: the world name may not be okay
entuland: the sample in the page I linked mentions "world_name"
luizsabino: at localnetwork I connect
entuland: oh okay, so it's not like the name should not have spaces or the alike
entuland: if that works, then the issue is likely in the port forwarding
entuland: which you seem not having managed to do
entuland: I checked the docs there but there is nothing specific for that version
entuland: check this one: https://www.totolink.net/data/upload/20190830/c3858219dc994df2396bb0fc0e4457e3.pdf
entuland: see if it matches with your router admin interface
Warr1024: you can have spaces in a name but you need to know how to quote things so that the command line knows the difference between spaces in things and spaces between things
Warr1024: Port forwarding is often a mess, and often very hardware-specific and sometimes ISP-specific such that it's very hard to get outside help beyond testing and telling you if it works or not.
Warr1024: I know at least one person who's behind strict NAT at the ISP level and thus is literally unable to open forwarded ports, and the MT server he runs at home relies on a VPN connection.
entuland: fun times... sigh
entuland: on some routers I had to telnet to even be able to change the DNS
luizsabino: entuland yes, I do like the pdf shows.
entuland: and I was lucky that such commands weren't even blocked
luizsabino: @MT
Warr1024: One thing you can do is try hosting something that's not MT, like a web server, and see if you can forward a port to that
Warr1024: that at least will help you differentiate between whether it's the network or the MT setup that's your problem
Warr1024: though of course that also assumes you have some idea how to set up some other kind of server
entuland: they were able to connect locally, so I guess the MT server is running properly
entuland: despite the lack of quoting around the name with space
luizsabino: MTDiscord I understand you, something like lamp?
entuland: s
Warr1024: "locally" as in "same machine" or "different machine on same local network"
Warr1024: it could also be a host-level firewall thing
Warr1024: MTDiscord is the name of the relay bot; ya gotta look at the name after that
Warr1024: Presumably it wouldn't be worth someone's trouble to pretend to be a bridge bot by just typing another nickname at the beginning of everything they say
luizsabino: sorry
Warr1024: np, just warning you so you don't get confused when it starts looking like MTDiscord is arguing with itself
entuland: MTDiscord++ :P
entuland: entuland, shut up
luizsabino: I have a server at laptop and I connect from my phone, it's ok. But I need to be able to connect external my network
Warr1024: okay, good, that means MT okay, and host firewall okay, only the router to worry about...
entuland: work out the port forwarding first, now that you have the correct instructions
Warr1024: router and ISP I guess :-/
Warr1024: if it's being blocked at the ISP level then that is extra annoying and the options to work around it get pretty lousy.
Warr1024: I rarely see that though...
luizsabino: this is my conf at router https://imgur.com/qgXtsfk
Warr1024: Do you have the correct external IP?
Warr1024: you go to like a whatismyip.com to get it
Warr1024: also "service type HTTP" looks weird next to "port 30000" and "protocol UDP" so I'm hoping that's just a label and doesn't imply any kind of like protocol analysis or anything.
entuland: probably it's just to autofill the ports
entuland: the protocol should be correctly set to UDP
luizsabino: yes I get, it's a dynamic ip but I allways check before test
entuland: if you got the internal IP right as well, and if your ISP isn't doing dodgy things, you should be good to go
luizsabino: about the http I guess weird too there is others options
luizsabino: I suspect about ISP
entuland: you tried already after doing those changes and it's still not working?
luizsabino: yes since yesterday
luizsabino: there is more options instead http https://imgur.com/XBWV2Ns
Warr1024: one thing I might try is an external port scan service.  I know grc.com has a port scan called "Shields Up" that will scan at least the first like 1024 ports or so and tell you which ones are open, closed, or "stealth" (no response)
entuland: sorry, I'm still not sure whether you tried _now_ after setting up the port forwarding
Warr1024: if you can get your ports to mostly show up one way, like closed, but a few of them come back as no response, then your ISP is probably blacklisting specific ports.  A lot of them do that with the Windows File Sharing ports and stuff
Warr1024: Yeah, you should probably retest now just to make sure your problem is still a problem.  Make sure you get a fresh IP.
Warr1024: IIRC you can get a free dynamic DNS name from minetest.land or something so you don't have to keep telling players new IP addresses every time yours changes
Hawk777: The GRC scan also lets you enter custom ports, but I don’t know if it will do UDP or only TCP.
luizsabino: I'm at GRC
luizsabino: I don't know about this result
entuland: that website may not be probing those UDP ports
luizsabino: Please, see the result https://imgur.com/7a656Hn
entuland: google "udp port test", you should get plenty of online services
entuland: so that you can check the specific port you're opening
luizsabino: if I want to host a server, what kind I should to find? VPS?
entuland: no idea, sorry
entuland: port scanning gave any result?
Edgy1: what does response code 429 mean
entuland: too many requests
rubenwardy: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Status/429
Edgy1: I keep getting that on a new server
Edgy1: have seen it on some others too
Edgy1: perhaps I've exceded the limit?
Edgy1: perhaps i should bind a few to a different IP
entuland: Running any mods?
entuland: (assuming it may even make a difference)
ghoti: Edgy1: to be clear, were you getting a 429 error from *minetest*, or some other HTTP service?
Edgy1: ghoti: servers.minetest.net
Edgy1: I had too many servers announcing same bind. I bound some to a different IP and the problem went away
Edgy1: almost all my domains are portable, thankfully
ghoti: Ah, so you ran afoul of a rate limit in nginx. I don't know what protection servers.minetest.net has, but it's nice to see that it's not nothing. :)
ghoti: I recall nginx having "limit_req_status" and "limit_conn_status" controls which are easy to set up.
sfan5: @entuland btw, trying to probe UDP ports via scanning is rarely useful
sfan5: it is possible and might work
sfan5: but almost always you're better of testing if Minetest responds using !up
sfan5: off*
independent_: i find it funny that i use vodafone, and so does ywang XD and it's not even a monopoly XD
entuland: thanks for the info, sfan5, but I'm not sure what command is that
sfan5: belongs to MinetestBot
sfan5: !up ctf.rubenwardy.com:30001
MinetestBot: ctf.rubenwardy.com:30001 is up (24ms) (IPv6)
entuland: ah, nice
entuland: !tell luizsabino you can use MinetestBot to check your server, run this without quotes in this channel or /msg Minetest bot directly: "!up your_public_ip_or_domain:30000" (suggested by sfan5)
MinetestBot: entuland: I'll pass that on when luizsabino is around
entuland: argh, I misspelled MinetestBot
sfan5: I'm sure they'll figure it out
entuland: eh, I wanted to get it right cause they were getting confused by messages relayed by MTDiscord yesternight :P
erlehmann: does minetest have a maximum number of entities?
sfan5: 2^16
sfan5: without protocol changes a server could be modified to infinite entities as long as not more than 2^16 are visibile to any given client
sfan5: this is assuming you mean "number of entity instances in active blocks"
celeron55: if you mean types of lua-defined entities, i think you're just limited by memory
Liso: I guess ‭65.536‬ different visible entities  is good enough xD
IhrFussel: sfan5, what do you mean? What's the limit right now then? I thought that limit already only applies to visible/loaded entities
IhrFussel: Don't tell me there is some hardcoded max value of entities stored in the DB
sfan5: there isn't
IhrFussel: Then why did you mention that a server would have to be modified in order to only count visible entities
IhrFussel: Does it count entities per server session by default?
sfan5: ???
IhrFussel: "without protocol changes a server could be modified to infinite entities as long as not more than 2^16 are visibile to any given client" <<
sfan5: it would be possible to modify the server to have more than 2^16 loaded entities, without modifying the protocol
IhrFussel: OKay but in any case the server only counts visible ones towards the limit then?
sfan5: only visible/loaded entities count toward 2^16 like I said
celeron55: the global active object id value is 16 bit, and entities exist as active objects when they're not stored in a mapblock in their static saved state
celeron55: when they're saved and inactive, they don't have an id at all
celeron55: (except that a mod might give them an unique id for identification purposes)
erlehmann: hey what is a regex to capture coords from logs for censorship?
erlehmann: i mean
erlehmann: redaction
Warr1024: shouldn't be hard to do something like ((-?\d+)[,\s]+){2}(-?\d+)
Warr1024: I wrote a tool that scrapes logs, finds all coordinates, and then prints out lines where the matching coordinates are within a certain distance of input coords, i.e. for finding stuff that happened near a place
Warr1024: redacting logs is pretty easy though, I just use logrotate.
Warr1024: To submit a request to have your info purged from the logs on my server, you just need to write your request on a slip of paper, light a pentagram of candles in a darkened room, and then burn your request in the very center.  Your request will be completed within 5 days.
Warr1024: Also on a side note the log retention period for my server is 5 days.
erlehmann: <Warr1024> shouldn't be hard to do something like ((-?\d+)[,\s]+){2}(-?\d+)
erlehmann: LOL
erlehmann: that does not work
erlehmann: and yes
erlehmann: everyone thinks it is easy
Warr1024: It IS easy, it's just not SO easy that I can do it for you without actually looking at the problem.
erlehmann: the problem is to redact coordinates in server logs
Warr1024: The nasty part is probably accounting for various different format variations, like the different delimiters between numbers, parens, spacing, decimals and negatives, etc.
Warr1024: Yeah, so go solve it
Warr1024: and then once you do THEN maybe someone will have a regex to capture coords from logs.
Warr1024: I don't have your logs, and I don't know what-all mods you have or how they present coordinates in custom log messages, so I can't really do anything from here other than give you a direction to look.
Warr1024: that regex I gave you is probably a decent starting point and will catch some of the things, so you just need to adjust it to capture the rest
Warr1024: It's probably a problem that has been solved before, but the people who solved it never published their results, and nobody would know where to look for them anyway even if they did.
independent_: pls help pls, i have error and need help pls https://pastebin.com/fvHs3rPm
sfan5: advtrains doesn't seem happy with a truncated or otherwise damaged file
y5nw: Report that to the advtrains mailing list
y5nw: independent_: try disabling strict loading. That was a known bug under Windows (afaik it has been fixed now)
independent_: im not using windows and i dont know where and how? what is the config name?
y5nw: Also for whatever reason the file descriptor(?) apparently gave nil when reading a line
y5nw: independent_: minetest.conf
y5nw: Switching to mobile
y5nw: independent_: apparently you got an empty file, and serialize_lib does not like not having a header at all, I suppose
independent_: so... what is the setting name?
y5nw: serialize_lib_strict_loading
independent_: thx
y5nw: Except I just realized it might not help
independent_: moment of truth....
independent_: loading my huge list of mods...
y5nw: Apparently if you disable strict loading you end up either loading .new or an empty table
independent_: i think it skipped the error, with soem red text and continuation
y5nw: You should probably go ahead and read the warnings
independent_: yay, conenction established!
independent_: did, nothing important to me. https://pastebin.com/20MFu9uP
independent_: aye, i fucking messed up
y5nw: I literally told you that about a minute ago ...
independent_: no, not that. the map.sqlite broke
independent_: all my old areas no longer exist ;_;
independent_: and i have likely overwritten the only version, unless i unzip a ZIP and see what exists of my server
y5nw: I could try to make a mod that tries to restore data from corrupt/incomplete advtrains data, but that would be way later as I already have enough things to do and I don't think such a backup recovery mod would go very far in particular
independent_: especially with my nonexistent knowladge of mienetst modding
y5nw: Time to learn MT modding then
independent_: "and the award of ths stupidest mientest server admin goes to.... 56independent for almost losing the map or overwriting it"
y5nw: Not really. Once I literally did "rm -rf *" in my home directory ... (wasn't intentional though, and I ended up restoring from a backup and partly with testdisk IIRC)
independent_: well... i dont think you are an admin, knowing how you are an active moderator of the laggiest server in all of minetest (although 56i-server is racing to try to win)
y5nw: minetest.register_globalstep(function() while true do end) -- Problem solved
independent_: does that disable minetest from doing anything?
y5nw: No, except it just hangs the server since that thing infinitely loops (can't test it right now though)
independent_: haha XD, laggiest server
independent_: i mean //playable//, but also //not playable//.
y5nw: Also I did host a MT server for a while, except it was mostly private (it was publicly accessible but had a default password and was not on the serverlist)
independent_: hmm...  a bit like me, just that it is publicly availible, but not on the server list.
independent_: i think im going to cry as i have lost all of my progress online. i have lost the slow lowlands plot, and smallchurch. until i found the map,sqlite wich ws inide my trash
y5nw: Plus, I'm quite sure there are more laggy servers than the ones I play on
independent_: *find
independent_: XD yeah
y5nw: I was forced to make a backup (no, I don't do backups particularly often either) earlier today after I noticed (or, KDE, which apparently now has a disk status check) that the hard drive I use for /home might fail soon-ish
independent_: i aim to make daily backups, using cron
independent_: but i failed, and thus didnt lose a day of progres, an entire week of progress.
y5nw: Afaik there are enough automated backup softwares out there if you are too lazy to make backups yourself, and I would recommend backing up to a different drive than the one you use for your MT world
y5nw: and/or use RAID (I personally don't have experience with that though, but afaik it helps)
independent_: i use my webbook as the server, and use scp+crotnab to pick up the crontab bakcups made on the webbooks
independent_: i should automagically delete old backups, but then thats effort. effort i dont want to do.
y5nw: Or compress them on the remote server (assuming the scp server you use can handle that amount of compression)
independent_: i do,  (relativelY) locally. i zip, then take the zip over
y5nw: There are also backup softwares that do incremental backups
y5nw: independent_: my experience is that xz and zstd produce better results (I haven't systematically tested that though, I simply concluded that after archiving some of my random stuff a while ago and noticed it)
independent56: i made this joke https://pastebin.com/kE4hzr0s
independent56: pleas laugh
y5nw: Coincidentally I was working a bit earlier today on a patch to replace Arabic numerals woth Babylonian numerals :P
y5nw: s/woth/with/
independent56: it was a cheesy joke i made in chemistry, text coming soon
independent56: https://pastebin.com/8w6Jc2Ge
independent56: https://pastebin.com/DYEJmHLx yes, i am looking for map.sqlite in exactly the wrong way. but it will eventually work.
independent56: honestly.... was the map.sqlite staring in my face all day long?
independent56: im testing,,,, god i hope it works....
independent56: aye, this is nothing like the previous drama. this time i ahve to claim full responsibility, and i have full access to the holder of all my work.
independent56: haha, my backups are compound. they contain previous backups :man_facepalming:
independent56: well goodnight, and i feel sad for the loss of map.sqlite
independent56: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=downtime:migration_failure
independent56: here is the page about this mistake, so you can get a better overview.
independent56: https://pastebin.com/Hg2um1f4
Zelic: Sorry to jump in and immediately ask questions, but is there anyway to get the groups information of what the player is currently holding? I have looked in the api and couldn't find what i am looking for.
Jonathon: you can get the name and call minetest.registered_items[GETNAMEHERE].groups
Jonathon: or if you want to check a specific group, minetest.get_item_group(GETNAMEHERE)
Jonathon: GETNAMEHERE = player:get_wielded_item():get_name()
Jonathon: assuming that you are using something that gives you the player
Jonathon: else you can get player by doing minetest.get_player_by_name("username")
Zelic: yes I have tried to use the | minetest.get_item_group() | function but it will only look for what is specifically called on. i am looking for a broad spectrum.
Jonathon: i refer you to my inital comment
Jonathon: "you can get the name and call minetest.registered_items[GETNAMEHERE].groups"
Zelic: mhmm player:get_wielded_item() might work
Jonathon: that gives you a itemstack, you need to name to insert into the above
Zelic: Alright, I will try that. Thanks :)
Jonathon: minetest.registered_items[player:get_wielded_item():get_name()].groups if you have a player/user else minetest.registered_items[minetest.get_player_by_name("username"):get_wielded_item():get_name()].groups
Zelic: after ****get_name()].groups, how would you go one step further and look at the value of a specific group for the item? That is ultimately what I am after here. example I am looking to find the value of | crumbly | on the item i hold in my hand?
Jonathon: `:get_name()].groups.crumbly
Jonathon: or *:get_name()].groups["crumbly"]
Zelic: Okay, that what I thought. Now to try to get this to work lol
Jonathon: have fun
Zelic: Ohhh I will, the rabbit whole of errors is so much fun 😅
independent56: hey yay!
independent56: finallly, my logger account joins
thmh: anyone played exile?  is "Iron and Slag" a step in the right direction, or does that mean I did it wrong?
calcul0n__: thmh, it is, you must smellt it at very high temp to get iron
calcul0n__: place burning coal blocks around it
calcul0n__: but i don't exactly how much you need and where is the best place, i just place tons of them :)
calcul0n__: *don't know
thmh: should have picked a spot with more trees
calcul0n__: there are very big trees, i needed only one of them for the whole game
thmh: you make it sound like cutting a big part of the tree doesn't influence fruit production
calcul0n__: ho, i don't use fruits much, but i don't think it does anyway
calcul0n__: iirc fruits only needs leaves around to regrow
rubenwardy: Zelic:    player:get_wielded_item():get_definition().groups
rubenwardy: warning: get_definition() may return nil
rubenwardy: if the item isn't defined
rubenwardy: `local def = player:get_wielded_item():get_definition()`    then check def and use def.groups
rubenwardy: get_definition is a helper function for getting from registered_items when you have an ItemStack, they're functionally identical
rubenwardy: well, I imagine get_definition would correctly handle aliases but reigstered_items probably doesn't
independent_: hey... who is this "logger57"
independent_: must be an alt username made automagically
SwissalpS: has same ip as you..
independent_: must be thunderbird's silly stuff
independent_: but same IP as //me//? oh wait we use the same router (i was thinking of privat ip :facepalm:)
independent_: is registration disabled on mintest wiki, and if so, why?
Jonathon: Yes, and read the forum topic
independent_: link?
independent_: are post-jokes allowed in the forum?
independent_: i was thinking of satirically explaining a mientest feature
sfan5: in doubt put it in the offtopic section
independent_: hmm... thanks!
independent_: what part of the section? they all look the same. should i roll a dice?
independent_: meh, dice rolled 3, on-topic it is then.
independent_: are swear words allowed?
independent_: judge for yourself https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=26848
independent_: how do i make adtrains update the interlockig database? i have an error from worldedit-removed TCBs. and i have no ideaof where they are on the megaviaduct
y5nw: Well, you should not remove TCBs with WE in the first place ...
independent_: well.... the map kinda went "kaput" in that area, so i deleteblocks, and built a new viaduct.
independent_: * logger56 (~Thunderbi@2.26.38.198) has joined
independent_: * Talkless (~Talkless@mail.dargis.net) has joined
independent_: <independent_> are post-jokes allowed in the forum?
independent_: <independent_> i was thinking of satirically explaining a mientest feature
independent_: https://imgur.com/a/3imenrE
independent_: i think that worldedit should be more careful, and update stuff. otherwise we end up with broken maps. maybe a seperate command, for those without new machines.
Warr1024: That's a responsibility of the mod that's relying on nodes to continue to exist in the world, not worldedit
Warr1024: or arguably the responsibility of the server admin who is using non-in-game mechanics to modify the world and bypass the ability of mods to intercept and deal with those changes.
IhrFussel: If WE would do all that it would be painfully slow
y5nw: The thing is, you _could_ still set things up if you wanted to mess around with the savefile (or in-memory, since the save function apparently returns references to the DB tables) with advtrains, but that's not really the intended way of doing things.
IhrFussel: It is so extremely fast because it doesn't have any checks
independent_: lol hmm
independent_: how annoying
y5nw: I mean, you could also play MT with a hex editor (i.e. edit the map with it), but then you are on your own and you can't really get much help. If you don't do things the intended way then it's your fault
independent_: XD yeah
independent_: i am such a fucking idiot... but i was thinking, maybe i should get the posistion of these TCBs, place them, and then remove them "the proper way".
independent_: how would i do this?
Warr1024: The best worldedit could do is create some kind of API, like offering hooks that other mods can tap into to do mod-specific checks before WE changes are committed ... but that still leaves the responsibility in the hands of the not-worldedit mods, and they need to be specifically aware of worldedit
Warr1024: Doing things the "proper way" would depend on the specific nature of the "kaputtitude" of that section of the map that led you do want to clear it in the first place.
y5nw: And that's not easy to support. With advtrains there are also certain cases where you want the user to be aware of (for example, removing the train and track setups along with tracks)
Warr1024: Arguably the best approach is a hybrid one where you use special nodes as controllers for performance reasons, but you also have secondary watchdogs to make sure those nodes can be regenerated if they're lost
independent_: i want to fix the mainline noob express, and i need to find put the pissition of the removed TCBs. how?
Warr1024: so if you need like a "controller" node attached to a network of other nodes, the mod should also do a slow scan for networks that have been damaged and are missing their controller and recreate one automatically
independent_: or maybe i can set routes whilst pretending they exist
Warr1024: I don't know much about trains specifically, but the general principle would apply to electricity mods and the sort as well.
y5nw: independent_: try something like this: //lua for k in pairs(advtrains.interlocking.db.save().tcbs) do minetest.chat_send_all(k) end
Warr1024: Any situation where you have a "network" of nodes that operate together and you need to run some kind of solver over the network, but don't want to have to recurse across the whole network for every node in it, that's sort of a Hard Problem of sorts.
independent_: i cant understand the format and place to put that code snippet
y5nw: independent_: MT command (assuming you can run Lua code with the WE //lua command)
independent_: so i have to select a region as well, containf the TCBs?
y5nw: no
y5nw: It operates on the interlocking DB directly (should be safe, at least there isn't any write operations)
independent_: phew!
independent_: yay!
independent_: "code succesfuly executed"
independent_: next question: is there any downsides to large track sections, apart from large wait times at signals?
y5nw: The thing is that TCBs are not really controller nodes from my knowledge (these are stored in a separate database in advtrains as well), but it marks a place where a track section ends and the next one starts, and while you could mess things up in the world (and I know such cases with "dead" TCBs), they should not really affect gameplay, regardless of whether there or not. (You can't remove them because it would otherwise be hard to find the
y5nw: track section boundaries again, obviously)
y5nw: (^ and that's purely from my knowledge and experience. If anyone knows the interlocking internals better than I do please correct that)
y5nw: independent_: nothing in particular afaik other than that you will have to spend more time if you want to split the track section in the future (to add a junction, for example)
independent_: haha yeah, it involves placign TCB, dissolving sections, deleting routes, remaking routes, and OH FUCK WHOOPS I DIDNT CANCEL THE ENTRY ROUTES! ahhhrgh! train!!!1!
y5nw: Advtrains does have room for improvement in terms of splitting sections (except apparently nobody has the interest in implementing it yet)
independent_: i would definately like to see automatic interlocking, where worldedit goes "yeah, i just place TCBs, make signals, set  and make routes, yay!
independent_: but it would be near to impossible to implement knowing my knowladge of minetest modding
Warr1024: in theory the mod could be background-scanning stuff in the world (i.e. just detecting them via ABMs or something) and maintaining a database internally and just doing "solver" type things in there over time, e.g. detecting contiguous track sections and such.
Warr1024: could be a hell of a rewrite of the backend logic though
y5nw: Advtrains has a separate node database that it operates on. (And you can sync it using /at_sync_ndb). The problem with ABMs is that it should really be avoided on servers with large rail networks that have developed over years
independent_: like linuxforks, and (in a year or two) 56i-server.
independent_: *proud of his horribly lacking server knowladge*
y5nw: If you really don't want to set up routes you should play OpenTTD instead (you would still have to build the tracks though)
independent_: but... but... i like minetest!
independent_: and routes are a necessary evil, like area protection
independent_: https://imgur.com/a/ElCBHI3 <-- ABMs suck
y5nw: The thing about manually setting routes is that it allows greater control over the setup (e.g. having separate tracks for various purposes similar to RL, or manually driving trains), and the fact that you can interact with it using digilines (etc) makes it involve more than just "go to (pass) x and drop/pick up stuff, then leave". (I enjoy OpenTTD as well, but sometimes I want to be able to see more than just the map)
* independent_: thinks of making "//interlock" work only on straight track
independent_: aye, https://pastebin.com/Lb3JHf9m
independent_: fuck!
independent_: tiem to anylise disk and remove unneded files
independent_: *thinks of operating server on USB instead*
* y5nw: suggests operating a server off paper tapes
independent_: XD
independent_: i mean, USB could have slow write/read speeds
independent_: main problem... or i could just get a bigger disk and move everything from the first disk to the bgiger one.
independent_: aghh fuck. i had a botched move job. fucking lost map.sqlite, and had to use local map saving to recover it.
independent_: and i am trying to get backt he old map... backups! fucking backups! i need to do them daily, yet i fail. what an idiot i am.
independent_: aye, i fucking messed up.
y5nw: That's why you need to make backups ...
independent_: i do! but i didnt check crontab once often enough. so i eneded up missing them. aye, i really fucked up
independent_: and guess what was taking all the space? old backups in the bin ebcause i didnt manage their size well enough
IhrFussel: How do you manage to mess up your maps this much while my map didn't corrupt once in 5 years despite thousands of crashes and lots of huge WE actions...sometimes the server even crashed during such WE actions but all was fine
y5nw: Advtrains does not work well with WE
independent_: XD
independent_: i was moving to a usb, but i used cut an paste. then i skipped the file conflict rename process
y5nw: Btw: if you make backups make sure to compress them. There's also the mapcleaner that hopefully reduces the map size as well
independent_: haha yeah
IhrFussel: WE doesn't work well with any mod that requires callbacks in order to function
independent_: forgot to do "-compress 9" int he command
y5nw: I said advtrains in particular because ... have fun fixing things up programmatically after WE'ing (at least I don't know any mod that fixes broken advtrains setups)
Warr1024: Having backups only protects you from certain things; when it's human error that's the threat, you can often human error your backups just about as well as you can human error the thing it's backing up
IhrFussel: So their map is  not actually BROKEN just the rails and stuff are wrong after using WE
Warr1024: To really have confident backups you need like 3 machines: the server, the separate machine doing the backups, and a 3rd machine that you test restoring the backups onto so that you can know whether you really have backups or just think you do.
independent_: this is a seperate problem - i can live with fucked up interlocking, but not a missing map.sqlite.
Warr1024: you still got the seed, so at least all you have to do is rebuild everything you did by hand :-)
y5nw: (switched to mobile)
y5nw: If you have the advtrains savefiles you _could_ theoretically rebuild part of the system (tracks, some signals, etc), but it is likely not what you expect
independent_: hmm
independent_: i fucking hate how minetest treats you: "make a backup of me or i will fuck up because of you"
independent_: /hj
y5nw: I mean "not what you expect" by the fact that underground tracks likely don't work because you need to re-dig the tunnels, and then you need to figure out where to place TCBs (afaik they are not in the node DB), the auxiliary Ks masts (if you have any, only the signal light itself is in the nodedb) and stuff like that.
Warr1024: I mean if you don't want a thing to be destroyed, then not destroying it would be a good first step.
y5nw: Yeah. Also: https://xkcd.com/2083/ :P
independent_: XDXD
independent_: i love british plugs! if only unpluged ones wouldnt become metal forks of death to step on. it fucking hurts.
VanessaE: never stepped on a LEGO I see ;)
Warr1024: https://www.brothers-brick.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/battle_strategies.jpg
independent_: i have, but they are kind, flatty things. not the tall metal prongs of death wich are british plugs.
independent_: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oeelectrics.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F10%2FUK-Plug.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
independent_: this is their default way. stepping on it is pain. pain that will have you curse the house down
wwar: These are big and noticable never stepped on one, not like lego
independent_: at night though, when you wake up and need the toilet? you will be in fucking tatters
wwar: Nah, never stepped on one
independent_: well, then you probably have never lived in britan
Warr1024: You could, I dunno, just like not leave random plugs lying around on your floor
Warr1024: The reason the trope is about legos and not about plugs is probably because the kind of people who do lots of stuff with legos are of an age where they may not be so responsible about cleaning up after themselves, but people who can be trusted to mess with electrical appliances should know better by then
wwar: Yeah, when playing with lego we were... younger, but as you said we dont leave plugs on floor
independent_: imagine this scenario: its night, and you unplug some appliance you are lazy, so you let it lie next to the extension lead. see the problem?
Benrob0329: Don't most UK outlets have switched on them?
Warr1024: All I see is a valuable learning experience
Benrob0329: *swiches
independent_: yes, they do. but i plug in an extension lead... and i dotn knwo wich one holds the cable to my server
Warr1024: I don't think there is any kind of electric plug anywhere in the world that I'd love to step on in the middle of the night.  The little NEMA-15 ones we have in the USA are no joke either.
Benrob0329: independent_: Sounds like a problem easily fixed with a sticky note
Zelic: Does anyone have a function to get the item name from what is currently in the players hand? I have tried to come up with it myself but I am new to all this.
sfan5: name as in the internal name or the displayed description?
Zelic: yes, I am needing it to call on that because I am trying to check against its groups
Zelic: internal name
Zelic: example minetest.get_item_group(get_hand, "snappy") I need the get_hand to check what the player is holding
sfan5: I doubt you actually want to do that but here goes: player:get_wielded_item():get_name()
sfan5: ah, yeah that makes sense there
Zelic: i have tried something similar to that but keep getting "player" ( a nil value )
sfan5: well, do you have that variable?
Warr1024: either you're doing it in an event where you don't have a player, or one where you could have a player but the action is being done by a non-player
Zelic: No but then I add "local player = minetest.get_player_by_name()" to avoid the crash but do not get the desire result.
Warr1024: looks like you're not passing a name though
Zelic: okay, so I am missing something then. Like I said i am new to this and learning as I go.
Warr1024: How are you finding out which player you need to operate on here?  Normally you'd be given a player by the event your code is running inside.
Warr1024: like often you'll have something like an on_use callback that has a "user" parameter that might be a player, an entity, or nil, and if you want it to be only usable by a player you can make sure that you've got a player first and just return immediately if the user is not a player.
Warr1024: you generally don't just have code that does something with a player that's not inside some kind of callback context, especially since outside of those contexts, there aren't any players yet.
Zelic: Alright I think I understand. I was trying to do the function before where I needed to happen. At least I think that is my current problem then.
IhrFussel: Simply define your function as > function dosomething(name) ... end and then inside the code where you actually need it you call dosomething(playername)
IhrFussel: Then 'playername' gets passed to dosomething as 'name'
Warr1024: Sure but that does still just move the problem because ultimately you still need to know to do something based on some event that gives you a player or a name at least.
Warr1024: usually you'll have a player, not a name; the name thing comes into play if a player isn't, or might not be, logged in, or if you want to delay an action and the player could log out during the delay, but those scenarios make things more complicated, so not great if you're just trying to start out.
IhrFussel: You pass the name to a function if you need it more than the player object itself
IhrFussel: But that was just an example either way
Warr1024: Yeah, I think the key thing to remember that's not immediately obvious to new modders is that there isn't a such thing as "the player", it's "a player" and singleplayer even is just a special case.
Zelic: I am simply needing it when the "drops" of a block are being decided. I am assuming that would be "on_drop" correct?
IhrFussel: Cause they tried to use 'get_player_by_name()' in their code
Warr1024: It's possible to go find an arbitrary player if you want, but usually you have to deal with the possibility that there are multiple players and only one is relevant and you need the event hook to tell you which one.
Warr1024: I think "on_drop" is something different
Warr1024: I think that's when a player is holding the thing and tries to drop it
Warr1024: IIRC there's a "drops" structure for dealing with drops of a node when dug, and you're best off using that to do what you want, if possible
Warr1024: as for customizing the "what does a node drop when dug" logic arbitrarily, it is possible, but from what I've seen, may be quite advanced
Warr1024: though that MIGHT be a special case for me because I needed to decide on the drops at a certain time and based on information that the hook doesn't directly provide.
IhrFussel: If you just need the node to drop as something else use the 'drop' field
IhrFussel: Drop when dug*
Warr1024: Yeah, where it gets tricky is if you have, say, a chest, and you want the chest to throw its contents (from node metadata) into the drops list when the chest is dug.  MTG didn't even bother doing this, they just disallow you digging the thing until you manually empty it first...
Zelic: Yea I am using the drop structure "drop = drops .. tostring(dropl)" is currently my set up for that which works fine as long as when those variables predefined such as "dropl = minetest.get_item_group(items:stick, "snappy")" but I cant define every single item
Zelic: items : stick...
Warr1024: I'm a bit confused, maybe if you explained this at a more high level it'd make more sense
Zelic: okay one sec
Warr1024: if you're, say, trying to make something that could drop any item from a particular group, that's a bit trickier, especially if you want to support items added to that group by other mods you don't necessarily depend on .
Zelic: I already have everything that i want dropped predefined as shown here ( https://pastebin.com/0MS0FSuM) I just need the equation to do the math of what the player is holding so that way it knows how many of that item to drop
Warr1024: oh boy okay
Zelic: yea lol
Warr1024: well, it's not just that your code isn't right for what you want to do
Warr1024: it's that this is not an easy thing to do using the "drops" mechanic
Warr1024: er, okay, wait
Warr1024: you want to, say, have a "coal ore" node but instead of digging it and getting "coal ore" you want to get a separate coal item, right?
Warr1024: so it's not based on what the player is wielding, it's just based on what's dug, right?
Warr1024: THAT at least is what the drop property is for
Zelic: correct so if the player is digging a default:coal_ore node what is the player using to dig it with
Warr1024: you have so many things that are undefined though
Warr1024: so you want the drop to happen only if the player is digging with the right tool?
Warr1024: so like if they use an iron pick they get the ore but if they use a stone one they get some lesser prize, or nothing at all?
Warr1024: arguably the "level" mechanic in the drop property would be the easiest way to achieve this, though obviously it depends on you using the "level" mechanic in your tool defs too
Warr1024: If you're defining coal and iron ore then it seems like maybe you're not basing things on MTG so I guess you'd have to determine whether to use the MTG standards for tool definitions or do something less bizarre but also non-standard.
Zelic: well that would work but this is building up to a bigger picture of a complete tool expansion idea. and no This is a complete rewrite of the base MTG
Warr1024: as for the code: you in get_item, you take item as a parameter, but use name, which is not defined there, then set item but then don't return anything so setting item is meaningless.  Then when you call get_item() you never pass anything in anyway.
Zelic: sorta like enchantments but instead an endless tool combination where different components add different things like "luck" for how many drops you get
Warr1024: So it sounds like you want to have a "luck" property of a tool (like an enchantment maybe but as an item group) and use that to multiply your drops
Zelic: correct
Warr1024: Personally the way I'd handle this is by monkey-patching handle_node_drops in builtin, since that would work across all drop scenarios, but I'm torn whether to advise you to look into that
Warr1024: on the one hand, it's very tricky, but on the other hand, anything else you do as an alternative would probably involve a fair bit of tedium and wouldn't automatically "just work" with downstream mods that aren't specifically aware of that mechanic
Warr1024: also, arguably, enchantments are better put in the item metadata, not in the item definition where the tool groups go, since otherwise you have to make an item definition for each combination of enchantments you want to be possible.
Warr1024: None of this is particularly new-modder-friendly though :-)
Warr1024: The simplest "not having to hack into weird obscure builtin/API internals" way to do this I can think of is to use an on_dig/after_dig hook and give the player the extra stuff that way...
Zelic: Its fine, I have had this idea for a bit and finally sat down to do it. I am up for the challenge
Warr1024: in that hook, you'll get the player, so you can inspect the wield item, and I think you get either the node that was dug or the drops, so figuring out the drops and duplicating them would be easy.
Warr1024: (also, instead of straight-up multiplying the drops by a fixed amount, using an exponentially-distributed random value for the multiplier makes it a bit more exciting)
Zelic: Yea. that would be better and I thought about doing that later once I got it to work in the first place lol
Warr1024: Even if you're up for a challenge, doing things a weird way before you learn a more basic if not exactly smooth way to do it might teach you some bad habits :-)
AntumDeluge: Was the minetest.settings object introduced in version 0.4.16? Browsing through changelog now, but haven't figured out exactly. I'm curious so I can set minimum version for my mod.
Jonathon: at this point why even support 4x
Warr1024: If it were me and I were still supporting 0.4 for those niche audiences, I'd still probably drop support for anything but the very last 0.4.17 version ever published for that generation.
Warr1024: People who can run 0.4.16 but can't run 0.4.17 should be pretty rare, even if people who can run 0.4 but not 5.0 aren't necessarily...
AntumDeluge: ContentDB asks for minimum required Minetest version.
Warr1024: What is the oldest version that you actually tested the mod on?
Warr1024: If you're just guessing that it supports a version that old then maybe you'd be better off just setting the minimum higher and not promising it works that far back.
Warr1024: If someone really wants that mod on an older version, then they should be willing to do the testing for you, and then let you know that it's safe to lower the minimum version.
Jonathon: This
AntumDeluge: I'm not guessing. It's a simple mod that uses the minetest.settings object. There is just nowhere that specifies when that object was introduced. I think it was available in 0.4.16, but don't remember for sure. That's why I wanted to ask if anybody knew. Would probably be a good idea to make a notes in lua_api.txt next to features of what version they were introduced with.
Warr1024: you could arguably diff the lua_api.txt file itself across the 2 relevant tags and see if settings is mentioned in that diff.
Warr1024: We're sort of lucky when people remember to update lua_api.txt at all, let alone when they put history info in it :-/
AntumDeluge: Good point. Thank you Links.
Warr1024: Heh, I think the discord/IRC bridge uses usernames, not nicknames, anyway.
Warr1024: Apparently the current Name Thing in discordland is people naming themselves after browsers...
Warr1024: There, I switched to something more obscure.
luizsabino: Hello, I was here yesterday asking help to make a server in my laptop. I didn't get yet. I guess there are something at my router, it's a TOTOLINK, do someone knows that?
specing: Now we know which brand to avoid
entuland: do we have a bot here with "tell" abilities?
Jonathon: yeah
entuland: is it just "!tell someone something"?
Jonathon: think so
Jonathon: hold on
entuland: k
wsor4035: !tell entuland test
MinetestBot: wsor4035: I'll pass that on when entuland is around
entuland: nice
MinetestBot: entuland: Jun-09 23:53 UTC <wsor4035> test
Jonathon: works
entuland: !tell luizsabino did you check this page already about how to set the server up? https://wiki.minetest.net/Setting_up_a_server
MinetestBot: entuland: I'll pass that on when luizsabino is around
Jonathon: and yes, they did
entuland: okay
entuland: !tell luizsabino as it seems you already did, check the totolink website for documents like this (find the one that fits for your model): https://www.totolink.net/data/upload/20181101/6a055f35e275dcad5b705542773acc31.pdf
MinetestBot: entuland: I'll pass that on when luizsabino is around
MinetestBot: luizsabino: Jun-09 23:54 UTC <entuland> did you check this page already about how to set the server up? https://wiki.minetest.net/Setting_up_a_server
MinetestBot: luizsabino: Jun-09 23:57 UTC <entuland> as it seems you already did, check the totolink website for documents like this (find the one that fits for your model): https://www.totolink.net/data/upload/20181101/6a055f35e275dcad5b705542773acc31.pdf
TomTom: hehe today i discovered that minetest is/can be used for educational purposes in germany. this is the handout (in german): https://www.lmz-bw.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Downloads/Handouts/Minetest/Handreichung_Minetest_LMZ_2021.pdf
celeron55: lmz-bw.de is a thing run by the ministry of culture, youth and sport in baden-wuttenburg?
celeron55: and they have made an admin interface called blockalot
celeron55: that's quite interesting
gpcf: yes, very interesting
celeron55: i'm going to guess in a few years most european countries will be copying what they're doing
celeron55: and microsoft will be mad
celeron55: https://www.lmz-bw.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Bilder/allgemeine_Bilder/minetest.jpg
celeron55: i love it, there's a screenshot of a donald duck player model on their website
celeron55: disney will be mad also
gpcf: sadly no advtrains in that paper, so no sweet government cash for me and my friends
celeron55: interesting to see what happens when MT in education circulates back into my country
celeron55: microsoft has a head start but any competent state agency will know they'll save enormous amounts of money by just hiring some student to polish in MT what they need
celeron55: also, the english wikipedia article on Minetest is still up
Jordach: unfortunately for my needs can no longer be met with the engine
Jordach: minetest can handle a lot of punishment
Jordach: however, that comes at the cost of megabits per second of bandwidth use
Jordach: i registered a few spikes up to 16mbps while testing
Sven_vB: when I'm holding a stack of items, how do I drop just one?
calcul0n__: Sven_vB, sneak+drop key (shift-q by default)
Sven_vB: so I cannot safely do it while on the lower end of a ladder? my idea was to drop just one torch down the cave
calcul0n__: Sven_vB, maybe climb a bit higher and do it very fast :)
calcul0n__: another option is to split the stack in your inventory, keep one torch in one slot and drop it with q only
sfan5: you can also do it from the inventory
sfan5: by rightclicking the are outside of it
sfan5: (with the stack held)
Sven_vB: we really need some more modifier keys, so people don't abuse sneak for everything
Sven_vB: is this just a client-side problem? could we make separate keys for "actually sneak" and "alternate mode whatever (formerly abusing sneak)"?
celeron55: maybe the player character is just clumsy and that's why he drops from a ladder when trying to sort out his piles of items
celeron55: 8)
Sven_vB: celeron55, nice try for a lore-based excuse. still I'll continue try and improve the game. :)
Sven_vB: it's such a nice rough diamond already, would be a pity if we couldn't cut it
independent56: whats that mod that allows to sell areas with "land for sale" signs?
independent56: oh wait is "real_estate"
jluc: https://dev.minetest.net warns me of a security threat !
Hawk777: Looks like its certificate expired a couple of weeks ago.
independent56: XD
independent56: anyways, does "enable_local_mod_X = true" use the directory name or offical mod name?
celeron55: jluc: i need to do some rework on the server, will take up to some weeks
luizsabino: Hello, Is there any tutorial to run a server with personal computer? I tried with wiki but it doesn't work
luizsabino: Hello, I was asked here about tutorial to run server on my pc but I restart and lost chat, anyone answered?
Hawk777: No, nobody replied. You might get better results if you say something more than just “it doesn’t work”. That doesn’t really tell anyone what went wrong.
specing: luizsabino: you can access this via matrix, with full history, but noone responded yet: https://matrix.to/#/#minetest:libera.chat?via=libera.chat
specing: luizsabino: shouldn't be more than ticking host server and opening ports
luizsabino: Hawk777 I understand. I'm on Kubuntu 21.04 and Minetest 5.4.1, I want to run a server eventually with my students so I setup the conf with port 30000 announce_server as true and number of users. I start at terminal with minetest --server --worldname CAIC World, but I can't see them in server list or typing my ip
Hawk777: So if you try to connect by IP address, what happens? What error message does the Minetest client give you?
independent56: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2021-06-08
independent56: logs
independent56: anyways, you need to write "enable_server_announce = true" in your minetest.conf. then set a server name in minetest conf (wiki it up), and it should appear. you need prot forwarding enabled if you wish to make it accessible beyond the router. and typing the IP wotn make it appear, its mainluy a wuestion of luck if it works.
independent56: wait until the ascii art "minetest" before joining. otherwise you will get a timeout.
luizsabino: Hawk777 shows error: Connection timed out
luizsabino: Hawk777 In local network it works, but out not
Hawk777: And you are using your external IP address when outside the same network?
Hawk777: Not the internal address?
independent56: internals begin with "192"
luizsabino: no, outside starts with 45
luizsabino: at localnetwork I connect no errors
Hawk777: If you are using the external address when connecting from outside, and it works from inside but not outside, it sounds like your port forwarding is not set up correctly.
independent56: try visiting your router's homepage, then go into firewall and do port forwading on port 30000. do it for the device you are hosting from.
luizsabino: no I try internal with 127.0.0.1
independent56: internal wont work outside the network
Hawk777: That is yet another different case. So, to clarify, have you tried connecting from a second device inside the same network?
luizsabino: independent56 In router the firewall is off
Hawk777: 127.0.0.1 is not your internal address. It is the loopback address, it only works from the same *computer*, not the same *network*.
independent56: hmm... yeah try looking for port forwading in admin settings.
Hawk777: Your internal address would start with either 192.168, 10, or 172.
luizsabino: Hawk777 I tried with smartphone
independent56: haha yeah, got confused between 172 and 127.
luizsabino: hahaha yes, 127 I used at pc, from smartphone I used 192
Hawk777: You must not have connected to 127.0.0.1 with your smartphone. That would only have worked if the server were running *on the phone*. So can you please explain exactly what you tested (server is running on a computer, smartphone was connected to the same network, and which IP address you typed in the phone)?
Hawk777: OK, that makes sense.
Hawk777: You will need to set up port forwarding using the 192 address.
Hawk777: Then you should be able to connect from outside using the 45 address.
luizsabino: I set from ufw the ports 80 and 30000
independent56: if you're gettign confused, remember that networking is a horribly complicated subject. its alright. i am always asking myself "what the fuck am i meant/am to do?"
Hawk777: UFW is a firewall on your computer, isn’t it? Port forwarding is done in your router, not on your computer.
luizsabino: independent56 haha yes it's a complicated subject
independent56: i am always screaming at the computer. i am currently shouting at XAMPP for apache not starting/stopping their way (i got apache to work, but not XAMPP? what the fuck??)
independent56: oh and also, be careful with home-hosting. you //might// expose your network to security issues. and my network is much slower ow that i am running a server. and the server lags.
Hawk777: To clarify: don’t undo the UFW configuration. You will need both.
luizsabino: independent56 yes, your right. I'll use with some students and the ip is dinamic I can refresh
luizsabino: I do a print from router I do something there https://imgur.com/a/4qVbkbO
independent56: i am not knowladgable in this topic, but i think that extra players will reduce the share of bandwith. this way, 2 players make the server run hald as quickly, 3 a  third, 5 a thift... so on
Hawk777: That looks right to me, assuming 192.168.0.108 is your computer’s IP address (i.e. the same address that you used on your phone when you were able to connect).
luizsabino: independent56 :-O  oh my! It's very slowly
independent56: here is my config page https://imgur.com/a/B7T9v0Q
independent56: it is horribly made
Hawk777: I think you only need TCP; I don’t think Minecraft uses UDP. But no real harm in enabling both.
independent56: but it does the job
luizsabino: Hawk777 yes, in smartphone I connect in, it's ok
luizsabino: But outside doesn't work
sfan5: Hawk777: wrong way around
Hawk777: Whoops, I meant Minetest.
Hawk777: Yeah I know Minecraft uses UDP.
Hawk777: But I think Minetest is TCP?
sfan5: nah, it would've been correct that way
sfan5: Minecraft uses only TCP (as far as I know), Minetest uses only UDP
Hawk777: Oh OK. Thanks. I play both so easy to get confused.
independent56: i use ssh >:->
Hawk777: luizsabino: I wonder if that might be the wrong page. Can you show me what the NAT Mapping page looks like?
Hawk777: It’s possible the page you showed is actually for preventing outbound connections from machines inside the network, not for allowing inbound connections.
luizsabino: Hawk777 yes, just a minute
Hawk777: That’s what the MAC Filter and URL Filter tabs would suggest, so the IP/Port Filter might be the same.
sfan5: yeah "ip filtering" sounds like the wrong page
luizsabino: Hawk777 it's empty, I should add minetest conf?
Hawk777: I have no idea what it looks like, but if it looks reasonable, then yeah, I would try adding 30000 UDP to your computer’s IP there. And if that works, you should remove it from the other page, since otherwise it might prevent you from connecting from your computer to other Minetest servers on the Internet.
luizsabino: sfan5 Should Idelete this conf?
sfan5: yes
luizsabino: I'll reboot router. I back soon
luizsabino: sorry, I had a trouble, I'm back Hawk777 sfan5
luizsabino: I setup the router with NAT, please see the print https://imgur.com/8opqcsG
Hawk777: That’s port 80, not 30000.
luizsabino: but although that it not work
Hawk777: You want 30000 for Minetest.
luizsabino: I'll change
luizsabino: :-/  no I get the error Connection timed out
luizsabino: external and internal port has been the same, right?
Hawk777: Yes.
Hawk777: If you restarted your router, you made sure that your internal and external IP addresses didn’t change, right?
luizsabino: I'll restart again
luizsabino: but they change, I update on minetest and smartphone
luizsabino: * changed and updated, on the past, sorry
Hawk777: When you got the connection timed out, using the external IP address, were you trying to connect from inside the network or outside?
Hawk777: E.g. if you tried from your phone, was it connected to your own network’s wifi, or was it connected to a different network (cellular data or something)?
luizsabino: Hawk777 yes, I turn off wi-fi connection on smartphone and connect with data
Hawk777: Have you checked whether you can connect to other Minetest servers using data connection?
Hawk777: Also, after changing your router settings, have you checked that you can still connect from inside the network?
luizsabino: no, let me try
luizsabino: yes, I do
luizsabino: I connect in SurvivalGo
Hawk777: And connecting to your server from inside the network still works too?
luizsabino: yes, from 192...
Hawk777: I don’t know then. That Virtual Server tab looks like the right place to set things up, to me.
luizsabino: it's complicated,but thank you Hawk777
independent_: first
independent_: and this late??? wow...
independent_: i have far too many worlds. and far too many mods. is there an automated way to read through world.mt and remove mods that are disabled? or do i have to live with this verbosity?
sfan5: sed '/^load_mod_.*= *false/d' test/world.mt -i
independent_: thx
independent_: hello! i am operating a server. now, i have a question. creative mode is disabled, but i have all the privs. why cant i mine stone with bare hands?
sfan5: Minetest Game? does 'creative' appear in /privs?
river: maybe your in adventure mode
independent_: hmm
independent_: im trying
independent_: but the network? SLOW.
independent_: turns out my network wont allow my server to run ;_;. it only crawls.
independent_: sfan5, it does.
independent_: oh noe
independent_: mum is struggling.., minetest server is stealing all bandwith!.
independent_: and so is logger56
independent_: +ping
independent_: hmm... ping is very high
independent_: would be nice if client loading intto muliplayer servers whilst it was loading would just hang, and wait for the server o ge ready
gh00p: Hi there. Is there a solution to the issue of apostrophes (and a few other characters) not being available in the macOS version of minetest (and at least some forks)? I have searched and found mention of this a few times, but no solutions.
Sven_vB: gh00p, where are they not available, or what does it mean? does the chat input field not react to them?
gh00p: In Minetest 5.3.0, 5.4.1 and MultiCraft 2.0, apostrophes are ignored in chat. They can be pasted in (copy to clipboard, ^V in MT), just not typed. Tildes also behave strangely. i haven't tested all keys.
gh00p: Tildes appear to pull a previous chat line from history .. I can get details on that one if you are interested, as it may be a related issue (I don't know), but apostrophes are my particular interest at the moment.
Sven_vB: I can't really help with that, unfortunately. Feel free to report it on GitHub. maybe there already is an issue for it, maybe even with a workaround.
basxto: mhm, adding proprietary libraries should be possible
independent56: hmm... yeah, someone would just go change the source and add libraries for fixes, and keep those libraries propietary, whilst keeping the main source open. maybe they make a script ot change the original source to one they can use. would that be legal?
Gael-de-Sailly: Hi, I don't understand the difference between minetest.set_noiseparams() and minetest.set_mapgen_setting_noiseparams()
sfan5: set_noiseparams modifies the general settings, you could use it to set a variable of any name (e.g. for your mod)
sfan5: set_mapgen_setting_noiseparams is what you need to correctly replace parameters that belong to the mapgen
Gael-de-Sailly: okay so set_mapgen_setting_noiseparams acts in map_meta.txt and not set_noiseparams ?
sfan5: yes
Gael-de-Sailly: thanks
Gael-de-Sailly: what I want to do is writing in map_meta.txt (copy values from minetest.conf or my mod's defaults) if they are not already present, or just load them if they are present. how to test whether a setting is present or not in map_meta?
Gael-de-Sailly: (btw is map_meta adapted to store values other than core mapgen's settings?)
sfan5: it's not
Gael-de-Sailly: so I should move to an independant Settings file
independent56: *independent
independent56: i know how to spell my username
Gael-de-Sailly: haha thanks :)
Gael-de-Sailly: in french it's "indépendant", that's why
independent56: in russian, its независимый
independent56: so you can see that it is different, by a lot
independent56: and i do think that "he3abncnmbin" is incorrect spelling.
Krock: well. map_meta.txt could be abused to store world-specific settings
Krock: not that it's recommend it in any way, but it would be possible
independent_: what is the nodestring for rubberbands? it is very annoying. i want to remove it, by "//replace rubberbanding air". i causes my trains to go everywhere, explode at junctions, and stop-start on straight track.
Krock: F5 info
Sven_vB: someone should renew the TLS cert for dev.minetest.net
Sven_vB: can a texture pack fix a mod-custom glass so its textures connect?
Jonathon: i dont think so
Jonathon: however if the mod used the correct drawtype, you can enable a client side option to connect it
Jonathon: Sven_vB https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L1140
MNH48: > someone should renew the TLS cert for dev.minetest.net
MNH48: we should really make a bot that count how many times people reported that, lol
Jonathon: with a day counter to see how many days it has gone unfixed
Clexane: and another counter to count how many people care
Clexane: 🙂
Clexane: a metacounter!
Jonathon: well, wouldnt that technically be the same as people who have reported it?
Clexane: yes, well, don't get technical
Clexane: technical confuses me
Jonathon: :thonkeyes:
wwar: And a bot counter that counts every bot that counts things like that
Clexane: who is kilbith?
Jonathon: also goes by jp
Jonathon: maker of xdecor, i3, some other mods, and has done formspec work and other commits to the minetest engine
Clexane: oi! let me chat in the dev channel please?
Jonathon: no, read #rules-info
MNH48: [off] You need to be ranked Regular or higher to chat in dev channel , or you can download IRC client and join it that way
Clexane: even if I spent a million hours developing minetest?
Clexane: If I, as a developer, cannot chat there then... hmm
Clexane: @wsor I was a core developer
sfan5: you'll have to convince someone who can give you the right
Benrob0329: @Clexane What were you known by?
Clexane: Zeno
Clexane: Craig Robbins
Clexane: sfan knows me
Clexane: so does every other dev on IRC
Benrob0329: Can you confirm from your IRC account please?
Clexane: what would you like me to say to confirm? 🙂
Clexane: or, would you like me to commit a change? (I won't do that)
Benrob0329: A "yes" would suffice, its just a precaution
Clexane: I've said yes as \c
Benrob0329: I've given you the core dev role, you should be able to talk there now
specing_: The discord walled garden gardeners busy at work building a higher wall^
Benrob0329: The hell? Do you ever do anything other than complain about either Discord (the company) or MTD (the community that's been built on the platform)?
Sven_vB: somehow I can't make transparency work for some glass in my texture pack. so I tried with default MTG glass and that didn't work either. should this work in a texture pack's override.txt? I'd expect 75% transparent sandstone look but it's not transparent at all --> default:glass all default_sandstone.png^[opacity:64
Sven_vB: it does have the sandstone texture though, so the file is understood - partially.
Krock: Sven_vB: wrong node definition. set use_alpha_??? to "blend" or something along those lines
Krock: also idk whether override.txt accepts modifiers at all
Benrob0329: specing_: -hub and -dev were both +V on Freenode, so we have a policy where new users must participated for a bit to show that they aren't a troll, data collection or spam bot, etc before being able to talk in those channels.
Sven_vB: then someone should fix lua_api.txt because it has the literal example albeit with half transparency: default_sandstone.png^[opacity:127
Sven_vB: Krock, wrong node definition where? in MTG's glass block? but that one is transparent when I comment-out my line in override.txt
Krock: Sven_vB: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/default/nodes.lua#L2811
sfan5: unless set in the nodedef nodes are either fully or non-transparent
Krock: use "blend" there
Sven_vB: oh I see
Krock: i.e. override that value
sfan5: (per texture pixels that is, 75% gets rounded to 100% and 25% to 0%)
Sven_vB: thanks!
Sven_vB: so I cannot make partially transparent glass with just a texture pack?
sfan5: not for MTG glass
Krock: if that were possible, you could change stone to transparent too
Krock: which is kinda... cheating
Sven_vB: well I'd expect stone has no transparency at all
Krock: and semi-transparency still sometimes results in weird rendering, hence it's only useful in a few places
Krock: thus full opaque or full transparent are "better" choices
Sven_vB: ic
Sven_vB: thansk for explaining :)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 040xLiso -> 03minetest/minetest: Shadow mapping render pass (#11244) 13c47313d https://git.io/JZvNr (152021-06-06T16:51:21Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfence -> 03minetest/minetest_game: Fix problem with sharing table in door nodes Lua definitions 137050094 https://git.io/JZfLK (152021-06-06T17:24:10Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04AntumDeluge -> 03minetest/minetest_game: Fix incorrect documentation of "default_coal_lump.png" 13c96cc55 https://git.io/JZft6 (152021-06-06T17:25:30Z)
Sven_vB: When I point straight west (yaw 90°, pitch 0.1°) onto a wall about 8 blocks away from me, my crosshair is a good length left and above the center of the targeted block. can someone confirm this for their client?
Sven_vB: when I aim at the center of the block, it shows yaw 88.2°, pitch -2.3°
entuland: Sven_vB, how would one go to reproduce it?
Sven_vB: entuland, it probably happens in any game. to exactly reproduce, use MineClone 2 on MineTest 5.4.1 on Ubuntu focal.
Sven_vB: if you have trouble aiming west precisely, decrease mouse sensitivity
entuland: mainly meant where to look for those values
Sven_vB: oh, in the debug view
Sven_vB: F5 by default
entuland: so you aim in the middle "by eye"
Sven_vB: yes. you can also use xdotool mousemove_relative -- <delta_x> <delta_y>
Sven_vB: that way you don't have to leave the world and change settings
Sven_vB: oh, nice, X server zoom works as well
independent56: hello! i am back home. please test http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki for me, and tell me what you see. i need someone to see if the wiki works.
Sven_vB: independent56, did you know? you can use the TOR network for such tests.
independent56: hmm
Sven_vB: I see a wiki with some text and pictures
independent56: i just want to show off my stuff, and disguise it as a "test"
Sven_vB: I see.
independent56: Sven_vB, try looking at other pages via the sitemap
Sven_vB: nah, maybe when you get a domain that looks more permanent
Sven_vB: at least a dyndns domain
entuland: uhm... not sure I get it to repro
entuland: for one, the POV doesn't seem to be perfectly at 1.5 above the feet position
Sven_vB: that might explain the pitch offset
entuland: if I am right in front of a block, in order to aim at the 8th pixel from the bottom (which is exactly 16px total in my textures) I have to aim up almost 6 degrees in pitch
entuland: the yaw could be due to the player not perfectly on a 0.5 coordinate on the NSWE directions
Sven_vB: odd, I can aim at the 8th-lowest pixel with pitch -0.5
Sven_vB: good point. I'll adjust NSWE
Sven_vB: nevermind, I stood on a carpet
entuland: :)
Sven_vB: thanks for testing :)
entuland: yw
Sven_vB: does MineTest v5.4.1 have a mouse sensitivity setting for the crosshair? it seems the difference between pitch 0.1deg and -0.1deg is 1px, so my pointer cannot aim more precisely.
Sven_vB: I see, it has
gh00p: Hi there. I'm trying to migrate from sqlite3 to postgresql, following instructions I've forum posts. Everything goes swimmingly for the blocks table (--migrate), but players and auth are reporting an error that suggests I have not set pgsql_connection.
gh00p: Is there something special about how pgsql_connection should be set for --migrate-players and --migrate-auth ?
Hawk777: gh00p: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10187
Hawk777: There are separate settings for the backends; you want pgsql_player_connection and pgsql_auth_connection
gh00p: Hawk777: I owe you a case of beer.
gh00p: It worked. :)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix check that given IRRLICHT_LIBRARY exists 1346f42e1 https://git.io/JG5L1 (152021-06-05T11:36:52Z)
Telesight: And here we are ;-)
Telesight: I want to shrink my players.sqlite, players older than a year must be removed. Can someone point me to the code to make these changes?
ROllerozxa: well it's essentially just a sqlite database. in the player table there's a field called modification_date that seems to signify the last time the player was online. in that table, just doing a DELETE FROM where modification_date is older than a specified time should be enough, but there's other tables that you would probably like cleaned as well
independent56: grr. why does https and ssh get their own acronyms? here is my proposal: "mge&s" (minetest game engine and server)
independent56: or MGaS, or MGAS, or MGS. whatever the community chooses
ROllerozxa: MT? MTG?
calcul0n_: mtg is the usual acronym for minetest game
independent56: oh yeah
independent56: i am so silly
Pexin: Magic The Gathering???   :O
AntumDeluge: Well, I think the mod that I JUST made is obsolete now that I discovered StorageRef. 😫
AntumDeluge: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=26804
basxto: how do client side mods work, do I understand it right, that they have to be installed manually and aren't supported by the mod installer?
Krock: yes
Pexin: basxto: you also need to enable client mods in the conf
independent56: tomorrow, i //may// be able to upload my server and wiki using port forwarding. thats if i get home before i fall asleep.
independent56: but defs on monday
independent56: if i made a fork with propietary, great features, and sold binaries for a few £, willl i be shunned?
rubenwardy: that would be illegal
rubenwardy: well, unless the features are in Lua only
AntumDeluge: I noticed that the workbench mod has been archived ( https://github.com/minetest-mods/workbench ). Is there an alternative/fork/replacement?
independent56: wdym, "illegal"?
independent56: thats the point of open siurce, ability to modify and add to source.
rubenwardy: we use a copyleft license, which forbids you from closing the source
sfan5: though note if you were to sell a fork only people who have bought it have a right to receive the source
Jordach: fun tip
Jordach: one cannot PGP sign their binaries as that violates the GPL
rubenwardy: doubt
Hawk777: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GiveUpKeys says the opposite.
Jordach: incorrect
Jordach: GPL legally states the exactant binary must have a source
Jordach: that's just a statement saying they won't pursue action if you do
Hawk777: “Is it true that GPLv3 forces me to release     my private signing keys?” “No.”
Hawk777: That’s a statement on the nature of the license, not on whether someone will pursue you for such a violation.
Hawk777: You may say they’re wrong, but they *claim* it’s a proper interpretation of the license itself.
Jonathon: because its in xdecor
Jonathon: note for the irc people, ^ is replying to antumdeluge
Jonathon: it literally says it in the description
rubenwardy: our android APKs are signed
AntumDeluge: @wsor xdecor removed the workbench.
Jonathon: @AntumDeluge https://github.com/minetest-mods/xdecor/blob/master/src/workbench.lua how about no
AntumDeluge: I'm sorry, I'm mistaken.
Jonathon: you can disable it however
Jonathon: which i would recommend if you have moreblocks
Jonathon: because it literally wastes tons of node registrations otherwise
AntumDeluge: That might be why I thought it was removed. I might have it disabled.
independent56: oh... i meant that if i keep it open, but compile with my own library added on. is that still legal?
specing: you can GPG sign binaries and this is often done. The signature is detached in a separate file, though
Sven_vB: Why would world exploration cause lag for all players, even those in long-established chunks? Can the map server not just lock the to-be-generated chunks until it receives the data from a map generator thread?
Sven_vB: also is there a way to mark freshly-placed blocks as not yet confirmed by server? I hate when I fall down because the block I was standing or climbing on disappears for a brief moment, only to then re-appear
Sven_vB: if the preview would look different, I could at least know how long to wait before I step on it
Sven_vB: waiting entire 5 seconds on each step would be safe but so much waste of time in most cases
exe_virus: Shout-out to Wuzzy: your doc_modpack is really useful! I've extended it slightly, so now I can just feed it plaintext files to generate documentation (and autogenerated locale/template.txt files) but it works like a charm for full in-game documentation. I might actually create a fully documented game with 80 mods in minetest within a month now, rather than.... never haha. Thank you!
erlehmann: wuzzy is best
Jordach: yes and no
Jordach: some of his mods are fucking red headed problem childs
Jordach: wheres the fucking nil checks
erlehmann: Jordach even that has a silver lining
erlehmann: someone griefing your base? crash the server!
independent56: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826159362225209406/850268815559229440/Screenshot_from_2021-06-04_08-04-12.png
independent56: please help... wth?!
independent56: i couldnt possibly disable moreblocks. too many buildings have it as a dependency.
thmh: I've seen this error too
Callinicus: Howdy folks
independent56: please help?
Callinicus: Could you retrace your steps and perhaps find a conflict? Did you recently install a new mod?
Callinicus: I'm no expert on this but that's generally what I can be traced back to. Otherwise if you've an apt for it refer to the debug text document referenced. It may tell you more directly about the issue.
independent56: ok'
independent56: 50 mb of pure text 0_0
Callinicus: Ah okay. Well it says there that panes.lua on line 9 is the culprit, where 'xpanes' is specified. And it doesn't seem to know what that is? You haven't disabled any sort of components within the mod itself? Or did it just randomly occur?
Callinicus: If your builds to rely heavily on the panes within moreblocks you could try disabling those specifically and see if you can load up
Callinicus: Don't rely*
Callinicus: Unless you want to check out the Lua file and tinker a bit. Be sure to make backups of your world and this stuff before trying anything, you don't wanna lose it
thmh: iirc this error just appears randomly, and I could restart the world without issue
thmh: *rarely
Callinicus: Hm. As I said I don't know much about Minetest in general. Error messages I understand though lol
Callinicus: I'm recently getting into minetest as a platform to host my art
thmh: that's very cool
Callinicus: Pretty soon (sometime tomorrow) I'm going to seek out the authors of two particular mods
Callinicus: See if they're not opposed to me using their mods to build upon, fix some discrepancies I have with them and add upon what I view as incomplete.
Callinicus: I know it's all open source and I'm free to fork if I will but I think speaking to the authors goes a way
Callinicus: I'm interested in creating accurate representations of the Roman architectural wonders in Minetest.
Callinicus: Kind of a hobby of mine, lol
Callinicus: Not Roman architecture but fascination with the Romans in general.
independent56: hmmm... 99% plagarised.
independent56: (my yesterday'sworld.mt vs today's)
Callinicus: That the Romans syncretized works that came before their own is no secret, but to deny that they had a great part to play in what would become of those works is fallacious. They exhibited a fascination, a pure sense of conservation in the wisdom that of the peoples they savagely conquered, and in the knowledge of past peoples.
Callinicus: They committed many misdeeds, but for all the misdeeds they committed they are almost redeemed in that (even counting the body of works destroyed by their own hand) the written records they passed on of these civilizations and peoples has been immortalized... By their conquerors.
Callinicus: And we can thank this record for many ideas that have become mainstream today.
Callinicus: As well as the continuation of western civilization as we know it.
Callinicus: I find beauty in it, that's all.
thmh: yeah the romans definitely improved the state of mankind, art, technology, and wellbeing. hard to argue against that.
independent56: yay works
Callinicus: I think that it's often the case that even those who committed many misdeeds in Rome, as politicians or bankers or what have you believed that they could make the world a better place. Many fought for righteousness in a swamp of villainous characters, some so inclined to malignancy due to the same misfortune.
independent56: haha worledit tower i made a few days ago
independent56: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/826159362225209406/850278386597494794/Screenshot_from_2021-06-04_08-42-03.png?width=1081&height=608
Callinicus: Sorry I'm ranting, lol
independent56: idc, only about artichecture, not society
Callinicus: Isn't the fascination in architecture fueled by the sense of mystery that the onlooker experiences when faced with a building? Or the sense of calm, intricacy, even fear that a work inspires
Callinicus: I think that has much to do with society.
Callinicus: Architecture is art
Callinicus: I enjoy art.
independent56: meh, for me its just "nice minetest world to look at"
erlehmann: independent56 regarding the xpanes bug, it could be that you have maybe two xpanes mods?
independent56: hmm
erlehmann: like one out of the modpack
independent56: its all fixed
erlehmann: another one separately
erlehmann: oh how
independent56: homedecor
Callinicus: I had an interesting experience earlier today
Callinicus: I removed a mod after trying it out on my world, of course I got the unknown node block that I then broke right
Callinicus: Well, it left an invisible node right above it that I couldn't remove for the life of me. It acted like a solid block but my cross hair wouldn't highlight it. I had to use /deleteblocks or whatever the command is to get rid of it lol
Callinicus: But I did resolve it
Callinicus: Ghost nodes are weird
independent56: use worldedit stick thing and "//set air" next time
Callinicus: I actually tried to and it wouldn't work. I had to manually input the coordinates of the node
Callinicus: Worldedit thought nothing was there
Callinicus: It makes me wonder if after I removed the mod the game freaked out and just turned the space above it into an ignore node.
Callinicus: Because worldedit won't remove those as far as I know.
BigBear: Hey folks don't know who looks after this stuff, but just a heads up - dev.minetest.net server certificate needs refreshed from let's encrypt (it expired 25th of may)
BigBear: Also on the forum the sticky/locked topics 'How do i install mods' is pointing to a page that has been removed https://dev.minetest.net/Installing_Mods instead of https://wiki.minetest.net/Installing_Mods
Callinicus: I had no idea the Minetest worlds were so small until I played on a server the other day and wound up walking to the edge of the map while looking for an unexplored area lol
Callinicus: Took a couple hours but it happened.
independent56: XD
independent56: they are'n small.
independent56: it takes around an hour to inspect track on the WBX
independent56: <independent56> and thats with fast fly being 100 m/s
independent56: gtg
independent56: was fun talking.
erlehmann: is it just me or are users and admins on servers that have money mods a bit hostile to both "hey can you give me stuff" and giving away tons of free stuff?
BigBear: the earth has a total surface area of 510 million km squared. By default Minetest has a world size of 3844 million km squared if i did my sums right. Perhaps on whatever map someone deliberately reduced the size (it is settable)
cheapie: BigBear: MT's world is a bit over 60km*60km, so about 3600km² I would think.
BigBear: oh crap yeah i screwed up confuzed m with km
BigBear: its 3844 km2 lol too early in the morning for me, so it is slightly bigger than hong kong.
Emerald2: Does anyone else find rollback check keeps spamming air -> air to the point you can't actually find out who messed with a node?
cheapie: I've seen a few air→air entries before, but not at a level that I would call "a lot"
Emerald2: I get so many, and also from walking light if somebody is carrying a torch, that I often can't get any useful data.
Emerald2: Because a bunch of people walked over it causing loads of air -> air.
erlehmann: Emerald2 do you have some dynamic lighting mod?
cheapie: Ah... yeah, walking light is... not a great idea, for a few reasons.
Emerald2: Why's that, cheapie?
Emerald2: I'm not sure which mod we're using to have the torchlight, it's nice and smooth though.
cheapie: Tends to be rather laggy in multiplayer, most of them tend to be rather buggy, and it's probably the cause of your rollback log spam too.
Emerald2: Ahh, we're using illumination.
Emerald2: Doing some testing I teleported to an unexplored area where nobody has walked. If I jump up and down on a node, it starts the air -> air spam in the rollback check.
Emerald2: Carrying a torch back and forth on it causes the illumination:light_mid to air and back. Gah.
cheapie: I did suggest ages ago that there be some way to specify that certain set_node() (and similar) calls not be recorded in the rollback log, for this exact reason, but there didn't seem to be much interest and AFAIK it was never implemented.
Emerald2: Wow, that's sad. They really should implement that.
Sven_vB: hi :)
Sven_vB: How can I make the cart mod tell the MT client that the current trajectory is only valid up to (coordinates of rail turn)? The idea is that in case of lag, the client shall freeze movement at the rail turn until it gets the new trajectory, rather than (seemingly, for a few moments) crash through the wall into the ocean.
sfan5: such things are not possible (yet)
AntumDeluge: Sorry to be a nag, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease. sfan5, SmallJoker, or rubenwardy, if you could look at my pull request again ( https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11202 ), I think the Action / change needed tag can perhaps be removed now as I made the requested changes.
AntumDeluge: IRC/Discord bridge is down. Has the Freenode channel been abandoned?
AntumDeluge: Ah, I see the wiki directs to irc.libera.chat now ( https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC ).
AntumDeluge: Aha! Though you all could hide from me. :p
Jonathon: No brbridge?
Jonathon: @Benrob0329 no idea how long you where planing to keep the bridge up
sfan5: the bridge was intentionally decomission
sfan5: ed
Jonathon: Ah ok
Callinicus: I suppose to your average player the world size in MT isn't small, but to someone who's used to playing MC anarchy servers where the initial objective  of the player is to get not 30,000 nodes away from spawn but often hundreds of thousands of blocks away, meeting the world border so soon was a big surprise to me lol
Callinicus: I did look into the limitations of the engine and now understand why that's the case
Callinicus: Luckily there's no possible way that little discrepancy gets in the way of what I'm trying to accomplish in the engine.
Callinicus: So it's practically a meaningless qualm
Supersonic: hi, does anyone have numbers on how much CPU/RAM/network traffic is required per user on a minetest server for ~700 players or if that's even possible/reasonable?
specing: depends on mods and you aren't getting close to 700 players
Sven_vB: sfan5, should I open a feature request for trajectory validity information?
Supersonic: specing: ok; mods are not yet planned, but if at all, there won't be any heavy ones. Do you mean 700 players are unrealistic for a single server in terms of general performance for the minetest server or in terms of numbers of players that might use it?
specing: Supersonic: both
specing: if you have only most basic and simple mods, you won't get much players at all
Supersonic: ok, sorry, I didn't phrase the question well: we're thinking about doing an university introductory event where people should be able to run around together and solve small riddles
Warr1024: If you can actually compel roughly 700 people to join an MT server at the same time, that server is probably gonna have a bad time.  I don't know what the exact numbers should be, but if you have the ability to break things up into groups and run multiple independent servers, you might have an easier time of it.
Warr1024: You could, say, setup a test server and do your development and testing on it, then load it up with test players to see what its limits are, and then for the actual even, spin up a ton of clones in some cloud service, and then assign each participant to a server or something.
Supersonic: all right, thanks for the estimates, we'll set up a test server and try which resources are necessary :)
Warr1024: One of MT's big scalability limitations is that it can't effectively spread its work out onto an arbitrary number of cores; something like 80% to 90% of its workload (or possibly much more depending on mods) ends up in a single thread.  A lot of independent servers on single-core VMs would probably utilize CPU resources a lot more efficiently than trying to run one world on a big multi-core box.
Warr1024: Conversely, though, more instances may be somewhat less RAM-efficient since you're duplicating more basic stuff that could otherwise be shared.
Warr1024: Also, the exact level of isolation (VM vs container vs process) may matter, I guess.  It's all a bit of a tricky balancing/tuning act.
Warr1024: I've only ever run small servers with like 10 players or so myself.  I think there are serious server owners out there who get like an order of magnitude more players, but I'm not sure what it costs them or how much fine-tuning there is to do to handle that many...
sofar: the tuning needed is mods - mods can blow up a server quickly if badly designed or just doing things that are resource intensive
sofar: everything falls down if your mod is not scaling well
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04srifqi -> 03minetest/minetest: Android: Do not submit text after pressing Enter key for multi-line t… 1340acfc9 https://git.io/JGDN8 (152021-06-04T19:22:53Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Desour -> 03minetest/minetest: Add metatables to lua vectors (#11039) 138f085e0 https://git.io/JGDNB (152021-06-04T19:22:33Z)
AntumDeluge: Woohoo!!!
Sven_vB: Soni, TLS is TCP based. MT uses UDP
Sven_vB: Soni, there's a proxy though that wraps the UDP in TCP; you could then wrap that in TLS
Sven_vB: do we have chat commands to set noclip, fast etc.? I prefer not to assign buttons because they're too easy to hit accidentially. also I'd rather set them explicitly, not toggle them.
Hawk777: DTLS is UDP.
Sven_vB: oh ok
Sven_vB: is there a way in singleplayer to allow me to fly but not noclip?
Jonathon: you can use privs or keybindings.....
Sven_vB: are privs game-dependent? because I cannot find a noclip priv in MineClone2
Jonathon: depends
Jonathon: noclip and fly are from the engine
Jonathon: you can also just toggle the key bindings for fly and noclip as well
Sven_vB: yes, I might have to use them then
Jonathon: you can revoke yourself privs...
Jonathon: . /revoke singleplayer noclip
Jonathon: i have noclip bound to h
Sven_vB: I tried /revoke and /revokeme: https://abload.de/img/noclipepjbn.jpeg
Jonathon: and can you still noclip?
Sven_vB: yes
Sven_vB: well, meanwhile I assigned the key, pressed it, and unassigned it
Noclip[m]: Looks like I am a hot topic right now. Got a ton of pings from Sven_vB  and Jonathon ...
Noclip[m]: xD
Noclip[m]: But in general I'm actually pretty surprised that I don't get pinged more often in this room.
Noclip[m]: It's actually pretty rare.
Sven_vB: Noclip[m], maybe lots of others lack the privileges :)
Noclip[m]: xD
independent56: hello. i have a singleplayer world that i am working on, for multiplayer. what tasks will i have to do to retrofit it for multiplyer use?
ROllerozxa: well I don't think there'd be anything that would need to be done?
ROllerozxa: other than possibly moving player data from "singleplayer"
independent56: yay!
independent56: what about protecting areas? i have already done that, but i can see how it would be a problem for others.
twoelk: if those areas are assigned to "singleplayer" you might want to create a special user on the server that is used to "own" infrastructure or public places like servershops
twoelk: and of course reassign those things to the new "pseudo-players" under admin control
independent56: haha wtf worldedit? i made a tunnel to the world border using worldedit... within 5 minutes
independent56: by doing //set air //set default:stone and yeah... wow!
independent56: if only there was an //interlocktrack
independent56: aw.... the walls and floor arent stoned :-/
specing_: What's interlocktrack?
independent56: avdtrains joke
independent56: a command to automatically do all the interlocking and routesetting for you
independent56: what i love about open source is that if some corrupt guy becomes core dev, and make hundreds of annoying changes, people can just make a fork and play there instead,
Danil_2461: same
independent56: is it ok to use named_aypoints in multiplayer servers? or does nobody use it for a certain reason?
calcul0n__: independent56, i use them when they are available, why would it be a problem?
independent56: i just dont like the screenshot.. the raw data seems a bit rough and ready
calcul0n__: hmm, i'm not sure we're talking about the same thing :)
independent56: https://content.minetest.net/packages/FaceDeer/named_waypoints/
independent56: this.
independent56: it is an optional dependency of magma_conduits, so i was thinking about it
calcul0n__: ho i see, not those i was thinking about
Danil_2461: heyyall
Kimapr: independent56: so far most forks of minetest have died, only one survived
comrad: a couple of days ago i've asked for write permission to the wiki. i would like to add systemd service units and dockerfile descriptions to the server pages
Krock: give Calin00u   a friendly punch
independent56: big worldedit oopsie, hadto use rollback. and its lagging the window intensly
Krock: feels sad man
independent56: fuck, rollback isnt working. maybe deleteblocks and hand-working?
sfan5: rollback does not apply to worldedit
independent56: 0_0
independent56: it did to edit blocks, my god, what a stupid assumption
independent56: wait how to rollback deleteblocks 0_0
sfan5: rollback does not apply to deleteblocks either
independent56: everything is fucked up now
independent56: i completely broke my stone station
Krock: backups
independent56: daily... and fuck!
independent56: damage i small enough, i can replace it
independent56: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/805028651820384279/850096563383697468/Screenshot_from_2021-06-03_20-32-09.png?width=1081&height=608
Krock: easy copypasta
independent56: what copypasta?
wwar: gotta lean how to use worldedit in singleplayer before using it in your server
Jordach: or build everything by hand
Jordach: dabs
independent56: or use edit blocks and face the lag
independent56: it only took like 20 minutes of game time to build a wbx
independent56: i love worldedit
independent56: worldedit has spoilt the way i build. i no longer make the most painstaking details to heart. i build long, boring viaducts, they are just a big stone platform with rectangles feeding off it.
independent56: i cant eblive advtrains is limited to 44 mph. even the british rail network can hit those speeds. "german-made"? bollocks. if it was truly german, then it would go at 150 mph, or 67 m/s.
Krock: independent56: https://www.reddit.com/r/specializedtools/comments/k25ez7/p/gdsb6ya
Krock: looks more like 0.05m/s to me
specing: CSM WorldEdit :P
specing: independent56:^
independent56: why do europans get to go at 120, whilst british only 70?
independent56: grr, how dare our roads be so slow /j
Ingar: well they drive on the left side, how dangerous can you be
independent56: XD
independent56: we get by just fine. it feels natural using the left. not right (urgh)
independent56: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/826159362225209406/850120559840722994/Screenshot_from_2021-06-03_22-14-50.png?width=1081&height=608
independent56: ahh help pls
AntumDeluge: What is the distance a player must be for an ABM to be active?
AntumDeluge: Does that make sense? It appears to me that ABMs are only triggered if a player is a certain distance.
AntumDeluge: I don't see anything in the API about it.
Hawk777: active_block_range seems relevant.
Hawk777: “The radius of the volume of blocks around every player that is subject to the active block stuff, stated in mapblocks (16 nodes). In active blocks objects are loaded and ABMs run.”
Hawk777: That’s a setting, BTW.
independent56: ok... so i added a large fork to my advtrains network, and now, the trains are no longer interlock-locked 0_0
independent56: they arent queing up over and over sections.
independent56: but now the trains ake longer to wait for at stations. but its a hoice between two eils: waiting for a train inside stations, or waiting behind signals.
comrad: hi there, is there a known channel for mineclone2?
thmh: yes, #mineclone2 (according to wiki)
AntumDeluge: Thank you Hawk777.
comrad: thanks thmh
comrad: apparently that was too obvious for me ^^
Danil_2461: hey people!
Sublayer plank: hey there!
Danil_2461: ey
Danil_2461: im back again
Danil_2461: first time using irc :>
Danil_2461: lul
Sublayer plank: nice :>
Danil_2461: hmmmmm
Danil_2461: is anyone bere?
Danil_2461: here
Danil_2461: i guess not
Sublayer plank: I'm here :)
Danil_2461: :D
Danil_2461: uwu
Danil_2461: finally finished verifying the acc,bruh
twoelk: o/
twoelk: \o
* twoelk: detects a minor lag in discord->irc
whosit: "hypertext[0.5,0.5;6,2;text;<big>I think</big>]" - seems to eat space between "I" and "t", it happens when first word is 1 letter long, and with other tags too
whosit: can anyone reproduce?
entuland: whosit, I can confirm it happens to me as well, but it doesn't seem to be strictly tied to the size of the first word and it also happens to do that randomly
entuland: the same form displayed multiple times one after the other may or may not eat such spaces
entuland: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/849634995487899728/2021-06-02_15_05_12-Window.png
entuland: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/849635029704769596/2021-06-02_15_03_39-Window.png
entuland: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/849635048793571378/2021-06-02_15_04_44-Window.png
entuland: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/849635062152560691/2021-06-02_15_03_57-Window.png
entuland: I'm pretty sure I've seen it eating the space in the third line as well at least once, but I didn't screenshot it
entuland: all the above come from the same run, just opening the form over and over again
Danil_2461: h m m m
whosit: entuland: thank you, I noticed it some time ago, but was not sure if it was a typo, then was not sure if it's just my version...
entuland: can't tell about the version, only tested in 5.4.1
entuland: yw
Danil_2461: hello again
Soni: any plans to support TLS/DTLS?
entuland: as long as you can get your hands on the proper landline to perform the extraction, that is
Jonathon: heh
independent56: hello.
independent56: my world almost died. first i made a huge block of tn and ignited it. i tried removing it with deleteblocks, but the next mornign, lerge parts of spawn died. i deleted blocks by "pos" in the database. it must be chunk id... but luckly i had an untampered database. everything is fine.
independent56: i belive that homedeor should be made more interactive - flushing toilets, fillable baths, usable pans.
sfan5: decor is short for decoration ;)
independent56: oh
independent56: ;_;
independent56: might as well make a fork called "homemod". with all the interactivity you need
Noclip[m]: Most importantly flushing toilets of course!
Noclip[m]: How can a game be good without having flushing toilets here and there?
independent56: yes! i mean, are we going to let our waste just sit there?!
Noclip[m]: So you also plan to add "generating toilet waste" into the game?
thmh: I'd just flush my leftovers from cooking, and end up with a clogged toilet
Noclip[m]: Please name your mod "Toilet simulator" then xD
independent56: no... it will be developed with eevrything else. the stove is not a furnace. it only cooks group:food
independent56: but yeah... every now and then you are teleported to the toilet, loud fart noises are played, you have to flush, then it teleports you back.
Noclip[m]: independent56: You're currently falling into a lava sea. Just before you touch it: Game teleports you onto a toilet, some farting sounds appear, you flush the toilet, game teleports you back to the lava and you die. Awesome!
independent56: XD
independent56: deadly poo!
independent56: wait how reove irc message? /j
Noclip[m]: Or you just stay onto the toilet forever because you don't want to get teleported back to the lava.
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "wait how reove irc message? /j"> As far as I know you can't delete messages on irc.
independent56: i know, i was joking
Noclip[m]: Ah, that's what the /j was meant for?
independent56: yes
independent56: make alt > build over lava sea > finish pooping on main account > get teleported onto water
Noclip[m]: cheater xD
independent56: Ingar	a game without cheats is a bad game
independent56: quote
Noclip[m]: "a game without cheats is a bad game"
Noclip[m]: Try nodecore then
independent56: lol
independent56: i hate that game, too hard
Noclip[m]: Cheating will probably just make it 10% easier :D
independent56: XD
Noclip[m]: Minecraft: destroy stone with fist
Noclip[m]: Nodecore: destroy fist with grass
independent56: real life: where are my shoes???
independent56: real life: fuck it, i will go out in socks... ugh mud!
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "real life: fuck it, i will go ou"> Sounds painfull ...
independent56: lol
Noclip[m]: Maybe not for the first 5 minutes but try doing that a whole day.
Noclip[m]: I think you aren't even allowed to drive a car without shoes.
Noclip[m]: At least not where I live.
independent56: yeah... i prefer barefoot. and im not allowed to drive a car with or without socks (im 14)
Noclip[m]: Mhh, I'm totally not used to walk around without shoes. I usually wear slippers at home.
independent56: me too
Noclip[m]: What's your opinion about walking on (big) stones barefoot? Do you prefer that, too?
independent56: i prefer it to walking on pebbles. pebbles are the devil on feet
independent56: as long as "big" means >20 cm.
Noclip[m]: Big mainly meant bigger than sand xD
independent56: oh
independent56: i thought you meant boulders, the type used in shore protection
independent56: i literally spent 43 minutes of my life griefing a copy of my world... why am i such a machoist?
MNH48: I think you meant 'masochist'
Noclip[m]: independent56: When I was your age I just did the same but with Minecraft.
independent56: lol
independent56: im gonna keep this world, and on april fools, put it on >:-> "where did all ym buildings go"
Noclip[m]: And compared to what I did 43 minutes is really not much!
independent56: "SPAWN WAS GREIFED HELP PLS"
independent56: "lava everywhere"
independent56: then on the second of april, i will upload the griefing video.
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "im gonna keep this world, and on"> One or two years ago I "reorganized" a friends server on 1. april xD
Noclip[m]: (Together with another friend.)
independent56: lol.. on april, as the peak of players join, i shutdown the server by simulating a failure (turning off the wifi on the webbook), backup the world, and start greifing. players come back on, and they see me griefing everywhere >:->
independent56: then i restore the backup after making players cry
Noclip[m]: Well we didn't really "grief" our friends world.
Noclip[m]: It was more like a big "reorganization" ...
Noclip[m]: For example we replaced a mountain's dirt with netherrack. (was a Minecraft server)
independent56: lol
Noclip[m]: And we "moved" half a forest from outside the citiy into the city.
independent56: /replace default:dirt default:netherrack
independent56: XD
independent56: ~ //move x 200
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "/replace default:dirt default:ne"> No no no, we did all of that by hand in survival mode!
independent56: 0_0
independent56: use worldedit!
Noclip[m]: We didn't had any special privs xD
independent56: i thought minecraft didnt have a priv system, and it was just "player gets worldedit creative mode" or "player gets worldedit survival mode"
Noclip[m]: independent56: Without mods/plugins minecraft has normal players and admins. We were both normal players.
independent56: hmm
Noclip[m]: Also it was a lot of fun doing that by hand xD
independent56: i remember when i was a noob, i didnt know about the priv system. i was like "why not can i fly?". but now wheneve ri start a world, i do /grantme all. it works.
Noclip[m]: Unfortunately that friend never talked with us about the server after that ...
Noclip[m]: The friend just behaved as if the server never existed.
independent56: XD
independent56: i'll never have this problem because i have no friends.
Noclip[m]: Ohhh
independent56: i need to automagically kill people if they reach a certain y co-ordinate. is there an easy way to do that? i am making a singlenode map, wher eyou are not allowed to suicide jump,
Noclip[m]: If suicide jump isn't allowed you should make it kill them?!
independent56: XD if you jamp, oyu would be falling forever
independent56: its singlenode
sfan5: http://sprunge.us/9GVYbm?lua
independent56: thx
sfan5: killing isn't instant but it sounds like that's okay for your usecase
independent56: thx
independent56: its amazing. it starts at y=-100, and then players die at -250. all within 10 seconds of falling.
independent56: wifi is going :-/
Noclip[m]: independent56: And just before they die they get teleported onto the toilet xD
specing_: Has there been a discussion somewhere about move from freenode to libera?
Noclip[m]: What? You are currently on libera!
specing_: I know
specing_: I just wanted to know if this was discussed somewhere. I can't see anything on the forums
thmh: specing_: have you checked the logs? https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/
celeron55: frankly the need to move from freenode to libera was so obvious it didn't need much discussion
specing_: I wish abandoning Github and Discord was also so obvious
thmh: ^
specing_: Which I pointed out back when #minetest was still on Freenode, but of course some proprietary networks are fine, while Leenode is not
specing_: Obvious?
celeron55: you don't need to be on discord
thmh: specing_: tbf, freenode is still bridged, so it's no different with discord.
specing_: thmh: yes, but I'm pointing out that the move to Libera is not as obvious as you say it was
celeron55: our tactic in this mess is to bridge everything, it's our best bet to try to keep the community together
celeron55: not being on something would just make more separate communities, people don't leave discord if MT isn't officially there
specing_: thmh: and freenode is not bridged
celeron55: i've yet to see a proposal of a github replacement that has all the features we need, isn't proprietary and doesn't come with a huge hosting and/or development burden
celeron55: so get to work
specing_: salsa.debian.org
Benrob0329: Freenode is practically burning itself down, I think its pretty obvious.
celeron55: specing_: that's the most reasonable proposal so far
Jonathon: Celeron55, any plan to update the certificate for dev.minetest.net?
Jordach: c55: unfortunately because it's debian i don't think it'll get patched outside of once or twice a year
celeron55: ehm... well it's on my todo list
Jordach: </sarcasm>
specing_: Benrob0329 Discord is already a heap of rubble
specing_: https://sneak.berlin/20200220/discord-is-not-an-acceptable-choice-for-free-software-projects/
celeron55: discord is completely out of question for a primary network for MT, you don't need to worry about that
specing_: It should be out of the question as a secondary one as well
specing_: Or tertiary.. or anything, really
celeron55: it was unofficially created and persisted for years
celeron55: there's no way for us to stop it
specing_: also celeron55  https://git.sdf.org/humanacollaborator/humanacollabora/src/branch/master/forge_comparison.md
celeron55: denying its existence just makes us look stupid and divides the community
celeron55: and limits contributions
specing_: sr.ht probably also has feature parity
specing_: You don't have to deny it's existance. You can ask people to use either Matrix or IRC or XMPP or ....
specing_: And that they are on their own if they use discord
specing_: (And also terminate the bridge to here)
celeron55: sourcehut doesn't seem like something that's necessarily very long lived
sfan5: sourcehut is probably one of the better ones in that list
sfan5: https://git.sdf.org/humanacollaborator/humanacollabora/src/branch/master/github.md this page is funny
celeron55: who runs sourcehut? and since when?
specing_: Drew Devault (ddevault on irc)
sfan5: drew devault, a few years iirc
sfan5: first point on that page: a survey shows people don't report bugs when there is no other option, the survey: n=34, conducted in a niche community on mastodon
sfan5: then later the page somehow brings climate into this (?!)
sfan5: also various points about Microsoft being bad for human rights and democracy, while the list you first linked lists gitee.com (Chinese) as an alternative that ticks all boxes
specing_: sfan5: that's true on N=1, as I have been boycotting GitHub for years now
sfan5: the second point of being tor-hostile is misinterpreted/bogus by the way; sign ins from a new location have been emailing you verify code for a while
specing_: My only contribution is to pipeworks on gitlab.com (which is also proprietary, but they get somewhat of a pass for maintaining gitlabCE)
specing_: All I can do for minetest is develop client-side mods
celeron55: the obvious better alternative to github is going to come eventually. anyway, i do trust the debian project and gitlab does have quite some features, which makes it reasonable even without looking at any comparisons
celeron55: i mean, which makes debian salsa reasonable
sfan5: I thought that was only for debian maintainers and projects
IhrFussel: I hope the CSM API that is not controllable server side stays as it is honestly
celeron55: specing_: they seem to be open to any open source projects that are packageable for debian
celeron55: sfan5*
sfan5: ah
sfan5: anyway last thing to my previous point: needless to say I cannot take that list of hosters without ethical issues seriously
celeron55: anyway, the question then, as we need developers, not politicians, is, how many developers would we gain vs. lose by switching from github to salsa.debian.org
specing_: celeron55: I know that you do partially use GitLab, as the Minetest repo has .gitlab-ci.yml in it (which works on my fork)
specing_: IhrFussel I've extended it somewhat, but plan to eventually rebase on dfc/ws
IhrFussel: If the client decides to connect o a certain server it should obey what the server wants to an extent where the INTENDED gameplay doesn't get altered client side
IhrFussel: Any pure CSM that could be used to give you an unfair advantage over others that don't use the CSM on the server should be forbidden...that's my stance
Jordach: nerzhul wrote that not c55 specing_
Jordach: and quit the zealotry
Jordach: that shits old as fuck and cringy
Jordach: a shit stain no amount of scrubbing can remove
specing_: What
Jordach: gitlab-ci is from nerzhul
Jordach: FOSS zealotry is boring and outdated
sfan5: wut
sfan5: the gitlab ci script is acticely maintained
sfan5: as is the mirror on gitlab
Jordach: > (And also terminate the bridge to here)
specing_: Jordach are you an official representative of Discord, Inc?
Jordach: no
specing_: Because you definetely sound like one
Jordach: somebody who cares more about users freedom than have it revoked by an unelected twat
Jordach: free to use whatever they want
Jordach: ethical or not
specing_: IhrFussel  My stance is that it is up to players to decide whether they want to respect rules or not (and get banned). I do not plan to restrict technical capabilities just because some of it might be used for cheating. Your stance (that is shared with many server owners) is holding back technical progress and that is bad.
IhrFussel: Banning would be an option if you could DETECT CSMs that violate rules server side, but if you don't plan to let servers know what the client is doing exactly on its own your point is moot
IhrFussel: It would also be somewhat unfair to not include such a feature since server-sent CSMs will definitely have that (a prompt that lets the user decide whether or not they want to connect to that server and runs its client mods)
specing_: Well, you can. You just don't have it implemented and are blindly trusting the client. This is a bug in the server (or a feature?) and a not a client-side problem.
Noclip[m]: <celeron55 "frankly the need to move from fr"> xD
Noclip[m]: freenode just fell apart in just a few days ...
Noclip[m]: celeron55: Did you close the freenode room or did freenode do that "for you"?
Noclip[m]: <MTDiscord "<Benrob0329> Freenode is practic"> Jup
Noclip[m]: xD
Noclip[m]: Jordach: Debian's release cycle isn't that fast xD
Noclip[m]: Did I miss something? Which technical capabilities are we talking about here? specing_
IhrFussel: Well there are the csm_restriction_flags but the client needs to be honest for those to work
sfan5: ShadowBot: 🤔
IhrFussel: And someone who wants to give the client more control over server gameplay could easily "forget" those
specing_: IhrFussel the restriction flags only tell the client to restrict the currently very limited API
IhrFussel: The end result is the same...the server can tell the client whatever it wants if the client weighs client control over server control and just ignores any restriction flags
IhrFussel: Now I don't claim that your fork does ignore such flags but it would be super easy to do that
Noclip[m]: Ehh: "ShadowBot has kicked this user from #minetest (Paste flood detected. Use a pastebin like pastebin.ubuntu.com or gist.github.com.)"
independent56: could you guys not chat so much? it is a pain to read the logs. /j
Noclip[m]: Is that a bug?
sfan5: Noclip[m]: no idea why it did that tbh
rubenwardy: independent56: you don't have to read all the logs :D
independent56: XD
rubenwardy: also, bouncers are useful
independent56: just the onces from when i left
independent56: "bouncers" rubenwardy please explain.
Noclip[m]: <rubenwardy "independent56: you don't have to"> xD
Noclip[m]: <rubenwardy "also, bouncers are useful"> Or just use matrix that is it's own bouncer.
independent56: Noclip[m], "independent56: you don't have to"> xD
rubenwardy: A bouncer is a piece of software used to have rollback logs on IRC
independent56: where it cuts off is halarious
rubenwardy: yeah, you could also use matrix
rubenwardy: rollback logs is when you connect to a chat software, and see the messages whilst you were away
rubenwardy: ZNC is a popular bouncer that works with any IRC client
Noclip[m]: <sfan5 "Noclip: no idea why it did that "> Would it ban me the next time?
rubenwardy: I use Quassel, which has a builtin bouncer-like software called Quassel-Core. It works well with multiple IRC clients
rubenwardy: but Matrix has this functionality builtin as well
Noclip[m]: But you need to self-host bouncers. In case of matrix your homeserver does that for you ...
rubenwardy: yeah that's one benefix
independent56: why do i need a bouncer when logger56 exists?
Noclip[m]: independent56: You don't need to. If reading the logs isn't an issue for you than just go with that.
independent56: lol yeah
independent56: Noclip[m], "independent56: you don't have to"> xD i love how this cut-off quote just completely captures me XD
Noclip[m]: Yea, brided answers are a bit confusing.
specing: Noclip[m]: technical capabilities as in client-side wielded light and other things that could be offloaded from the server
specing: IhrFussel the client should always value client control over server control, because the client is ultimately running on player's machine and not on the server.
specing: IhrFussel and in any case, the cat is already out of the box. Players can already download a client that respects their preferences above that of the server
independent56: /join ##geeks
independent56: wait wait
independent56: etf
independent56: hey
independent56: (i was testing whether i was still dmming nickserv)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: fontengine: Fix crash loading PNG/XML fonts from paths without dot 13e15cae9 https://git.io/JGu1j (152021-06-01T17:47:41Z)
independent56: is there a worldedit command to update blocks? "//update"? if i worldedit lava, it wont flow. if i move becons, they wont shine. they need to be pdated.
SoniEx2: any plans to support TLS?
SoniEx2: (or DTLS as may be the case)
Noclip[m]: <independent56 " /join ##geeks"> !join #guix
independent56: !join ##geeks
independent56: nope
independent56: irc hates me
rubenwardy: /join ##geeks
rubenwardy: with no space before
rubenwardy: you can also just click the channel name, usually
independent56: yay haha i am stupid
AntumDeluge: If I need to add some custom linker flags, do I just append to CMAKE_CXX_STANDARD_LIBRARIES/CMAKE_C_STANDARD_LIBRARIES? Or is there a different option I should use?
sfan5: cmake_exe_linker_flags
sfan5: (but uppercase)
AntumDeluge: Okay, I see it. Thank you sfan5.
sfan5: !tell entuland the chat uses mono_font_path and please test with 5.5.0-dev or your bug report won't be of any use
MinetestBot: sfan5: I'll pass that on when entuland is around
independent56: !tell independent56 that i am just testing, sorry
MinetestBot: You can tell that to yourself
independent56: passive agressive... go away
MinetestBot: entuland: May-31 06:45 UTC <sfan5> the chat uses mono_font_path and please test with 5.5.0-dev or your bug report won't be of any use
entuland: sfan5: I'm trying to find compiled binaries of 5.5.0-dev, in other project clicking on the "Build: Passing" icon of the Readme brought me to the automated builds, doesn't seem to be the case here
entuland: if I'd need to build it myself from scratch I'm afraid I won't be able to
sfan5: https://gitlab.com/minetest/minetest/-/pipelines
sfan5: menu to the right of a pipeline, pick the "package:win64:archive" artifact
entuland: thanks!
entuland: followed up to the issue with the 5.5.0-dev test, unfortunately same behavior exception made for copypasting italian accented letters that seems to work
ludwig: Hey, I hope you are all well. I just got into minetest, as I was searching for a libre voxel game. I started with mineclone2, and now me and my friends have built a lot of very cool infrastructure. Now as I understand the minetest ecosystem a bit better, I want to have more of the "real" minetest, as in use more mods. A lot of those mods add to mapgen, but we already explored the map to *wide* extends. Is there a
ludwig: streamlined way to get the mapgen mdos to load their blocks into the already existing world?
ludwig: or do I have to make a complex sql statement for the blocks table?
ludwig: (to delete the already generated blocks outside of a certain area(
y5nw: Do you mean something like "/deleteblocks"? (warning: it's destructive afaik)
ludwig: uuuuh let me research that command
ludwig: well kind of the opposite, i want to preserve the region with our stuff and delete everything else
ludwig: since we need the ores of the new mods for example, but dont want to lose our houses, bridges, etc
ludwig: alternatively to create the ores after the chunks were already generated
ludwig: smth like "DELETE FROM blocks WHERE x<[..] AND x> [..] AND y<[..] AND y> [..]"
ludwig: @y5nw do you know if, when I install a mod with mapgen influence, delete a range of blocks, the newly generated blocks respect the new mod?
y5nw: I suppose they do
ludwig: Hmm, then I am just gonna do that four times, thanks for your input :)
independent56: hello. when i make my map public, then a lot of things will be owned by singleplayer. how do i move ownership of singleplayer's things to 56independent?
y5nw: I think that depends on what you are moving
wwar: a lot of things like what? Protectors?
entuland: run a search and replace in the database 😛
entuland: well, on a copy of it if you really do, may screw it up 😇
entuland: some stuff may be stored in the world storage files (I have at least one mod that does that and writes player names there)
CWz: seems freenode is done
CWz: false alarm
BuckarooBanzai: !tell independent56 "/protector_replace <source> <target>" https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/protector/src/master/admin.lua#L36 (just for the protectors)
MinetestBot: BuckarooBanzai: I'll pass that on when independent56 is around
whosit: is there's no way to preserve default item behaviour (punch/dig) on left click, but do something else on sneak+left-click?
Krock: whosit: register a on_punch()  callback for example. although sneak is usually used to skip special actions to allow digging
whosit: on_punch() seems to be for nodes and items use on_use() ? I can't call some default function there, like I can with on_place() by calling minetest.item_place(), it seems
IhrFussel: My server just segfaulted @ EmergeManager::getCurrentMapgen() ... could a num_emerge_threads > 1 setting cause that?
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04paramat -> 03minetest/minetest_game: Add open/close sound gains to the Doors API, balance sound levels (#2… 13ddebdec https://git.io/JGRL7 (152021-05-31T19:43:33Z)
Krock: whosit: on_use() is called on the item you wield to punch a node. on_punch() is the node that you punch
MinetestBot: independent56: May-31 18:31 UTC <BuckarooBanzai> "/protector_replace <source> <target>" https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/protector/src/master/admin.lua#L36 (just for the protectors)
independent56: hmm
independent56: i might as well crtl+f the database
independent56: im moving EVERYTHING. from a singleplayer to a multiplayer world. advtrains data, door data, travelnet data, even the kitchen sink of data.
entuland: independent56, well, right after you left I suggested searching and replacing in the DB, it was more of a tongue-in-cheek remark but depending on how the data is stored, may be just fine
entuland: beware that some mods store player names in the world storage files
independent56: i know... i check the logs!
entuland: oh okay
entuland: didn't think about the logs at all :P
independent56: and yes, i do know about the storage files. i edited the one for currency to get 10 M
independent56: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2021-05-31
independent56: here
entuland: in some cases things may go south if data is serialized in a way that stores string length along with the actual string (IIRC PHP serialize() does that, for instance, and makes it nasty to do such replaces in serialized data)
entuland: no idea if there is anything like that in the MT DBs
entuland: "i edited the one for currency to get 10 M" cheater ahahahah
independent56: i am admin. i am scarred from a year of playing on a server. i am corrupt admin.
entuland: ehehhe, your world, your rules :P
Ingar: a game without cheats is a bad game
independent56: when its online, i will be honest "yes, we have a corrupt admin. deal with it."
entuland: I provide support for another game and I have no problem in saying to players that they're free to do whatever they want with their worlds _and_ the players in their communities
Ingar: I have only one admin rule: don't bug the admin
Ingar: it works pretty well
Noclip[m]: lol
independent56: to prevent an XX drama on my server, i have said "admin can do what he likes. dont cry. save everything you do"
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "i am admin. i am scarred from a "> Oh wait, you were the one that gets banned everywhere xD
specing: haha
independent56: i am. i am a scarred from years of moderator action. so i decided to be a moderator and scar others. its the ring of bullying.
Noclip[m]: So however joins your server gets free bullying from you?
independent56: maybe for the first week
Noclip[m]: Interesting "buisness" model xD
independent56: yeah... i will let them grow roots, then "play" with them
independent56: give them some death, teleport them into the nothing, revoke interact... just admin fun
Noclip[m]: Is your server already online?
independent56: no
independent56: im working on the map
independent56: i have no access to port forwading
independent56: but yeah... the wiki is working on the private ip. i need to launch the server when i get home
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "i have no access to port forwadi"> You could use yggdrasil then.
independent56: tell me more
Noclip[m]: But that will only allow other yggdrasil users to connect ☹️
independent56: "in Norse cosmology, is an immense and central sacred tree."  is the ddg result
independent56: brb
Noclip[m]: https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/
Noclip[m]: A bit like TOR or I2P but for speed instead of anonymity.
Noclip[m]: But if you want to be acessable over the clearnet that won't help you.
independent56: cool
Noclip[m]: Let's be honest, the clearnet just sucks ...
independent56: i dont want to make it online //now//, i gave myself the half-term to make the server and wiki public-ready
independent56: im very proud of my world. so if a griefer comes, then its time to play with them.
Noclip[m]: It's using bad technology from the beginning of the internet.
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "im very proud of my world. so if"> Don't forget to keep a backup xD
independent56: i dont. auomatic nightly backups. 21:00
Noclip[m]: How do you manage version control?
independent56: using crontab. //i// forget to backup, but crontab always remembers
independent56: version control? just a $(date + "%Y-%m-%d") slapped onto the filename
independent56: i have a whole pool of neglected zips.
Noclip[m]: Lol so you make a copie for every new version?
independent56: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/826159362225209406/849034149234868234/Screenshot_from_2021-05-31_22-18-17.png?width=720&height=405
independent56: here is the pool
Noclip[m]: I recommend you to use deduplication for minetest backups.
independent56: meh
independent56: it works fine
independent56: only 1 gb per zip.
independent56: it also zips all the mods 0_0
independent56: gtg
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "https://media.discordapp.net/att"> Ahh, I did it the same way in the beginning.
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "it also zips all the mods 0_0"> Ohh wait, I didn't.
Noclip[m]: I only zipped my worlds and not the whole minetest folder.
Noclip[m]: What you are doing is nothing else than wasting a ton of space!
Noclip[m]: Don't backup things that you don't need to backup and make your backups as space-efficient as possible!
Noclip[m]: With 1 GB per zip you will have 365 GB after one year.
independent56: hmm
independent56: good point
Noclip[m]: lol
independent56: yeah... will excluide mods
Noclip[m]: I'm currently using Borg for world backups.
independent56: hmm
independent56: meh
independent56: i like the cross-platform and simplicty of bash scripts
Noclip[m]: That only stores the changes of every new version.
Jordach: so your collective files will adapt to serve us
independent56: meh.... i once lost a whole pool. was distressing until i realised i had a copy of everything on my sister's computer.
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "i like the cross-platform and si"> Does that mean you're never using Windows?
independent56: i prefer being able to cpy and extract one file.
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "meh.... i once lost a whole pool"> lol
independent56: Noclip[m], windows is horrible. it is sin. i never use it.
Jordach: hello there
independent56: excerpt for in a vm, where i point and say "haha stoopid"
Jordach: i'm sorry i can't hear you over my audiophile gear
Noclip[m]: Why do you have a copie of all your files on your sister's computer?
Noclip[m]: <MTDiscord "<Jordach> hello there"> Hello
independent56: to show her my worlds
independent56: and not ^I all ^i my files, just the worlds and mods
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "Noclip, windows is horrible. it "> Great! Windows is the only platform that is not supported by borg (I think).
independent56: brb
Noclip[m]: "Hey sister, could you please store a few Terabytes of data for me?"
Noclip[m]: "I'm sure your laptops SSD has still some free space."
independent56: *hdd
Noclip[m]: 20 TB HDDs do exist.
independent56: hmm
independent56: my sister wa sonly playing on some world
independent56: not all my files
Noclip[m]: But laptops probably don't ship with them xD
independent56: and i have a 500 gb SSD... everything fits.
Noclip[m]: Mhh, maybe they don't exist?!
Noclip[m]: But Wester digital has a 18 TB HDD.
Noclip[m]: https://shop.westerndigital.com/products/internal-drives/wd-gold-sata-hdd#WD181KRYZ
independent56: and it costs $700. nope!
Noclip[m]: <independent56 "and i have a 500 gb SSD... every"> 1 year of daily zip backups later ...
independent56: once, with timeshift, it was draining my storage space. and i didnt know. iw as wondering "why is my computer slow?".  when i found out i felt sooo stupid.
Noclip[m]: Wait, your filesystem was actually full?
independent56: timeshift is now deleted
independent56: im lucky i survived
Noclip[m]: You know that this is probably not good for the OS, do you?
independent56: i know
independent56: the OS forgives me.
Noclip[m]: The OS usually always expects the filesystem to be writeable.
independent56: XD
Noclip[m]: Just imagine the filesystem gets filled up in the middle of an OS update ...
independent56: luckly, timeshift was deleted.
independent56: and i have... 127 gb left
Noclip[m]: You could use btrfs as filesystem. Then you can do daily snapshots without needing extra space for them.
independent56: hmm
Noclip[m]: You make backups to an external drive, do you?
independent56: hmm
independent56: i have an external drive. but the connector wire is shit
Noclip[m]: (And timeshift has support for btrfs. If you use timeshift on btrfs it won't use extra space.)
independent56: its impossible to make backups without "i/o error! oopsie woopsie! cant backupyour most important files"
Noclip[m]: Then get a new wire.
independent56: lol yeah
Noclip[m]: Every storage device dies after some time. Your SSD is no exception from that rule.
independent56: my mum has a blue bag with a handful of storage devices. containing memories. she keeps on putting off backups. she almost lost it. i wish to make backups of it.
independent56: yeah... i need to put it on my drive.
Noclip[m]: There are a few great backup phrases:
Noclip[m]: No backup no mercy. If there is no (tested) backup the data wasn't important. RAID is not a backup. One backup is no backup. Always test your backups.
independent56: hmm
independent56: i always remember "three points and you're probably good"
Noclip[m]: independent56: If you can lose your backups then you aren't doing your backups the right way!
independent56: hmm
Noclip[m]: Do you know the 3-2-1 backup rule?
Noclip[m]: Always have 3 backups on 2 different types of storage media with one backup being offsite (for example in the cloud).
Noclip[m]: That's basically the best you can do.
entuland: I like to read the binaries of all of my important documents and medida and set them to mind in case of disaster.
entuland: s/medida/media
Noclip[m]: So you are backup up your data into your brain?
entuland: https://tenor.com/view/think-about-it-use-your-brain-use-the-brain-think-brain-gif-7914082
Noclip[m]: entuland: lol. How do you backup minetest worlds into your brain?
entuland: eheheh, of course I was being facetious :P
entuland: I wish I remembered more than 5 birthdates and more than 2 phone numbers
Hawk777: Easy. To restore your backup, start an empty Minetest world and rebuild all your stuff!
Noclip[m]: "Hey entuland someone griefed your server yesterday and destroyed the whole city. Could you please roll back to another version?"
Noclip[m]: "Mhh, I first need to find a way to export the backup out of my brain."
entuland: :)
Noclip[m]: <Hawk777 "Easy. To restore your backup, st"> Super easy xD
Noclip[m]: <entuland "I wish I remembered more than 5 "> I don't even try.
entuland: ehehe
entuland: I don't really try actually, some simply stuck after years (some others simply don't despite the years)
Noclip[m]: Okay I know a few birthdays and at least one phone number.
Noclip[m]: I know someone who knew the first 500 digits of Pi.
Noclip[m]: That person also knew many people's phone numbers, car license plate numbers and more ...
Noclip[m]: At some point that was really a bit scary xD
specing: Sounds like the ideal spy
specing: remembers everything just by looking at it
Noclip[m]: <specing "remembers everything just by loo"> Not sure if that's how it works.
Noclip[m]: In case of Pi they said that they needed a few minutes to learn it.
Noclip[m]: I have no idea how you learn hundreds of digits in just a few minutes xD
Noclip[m]: Or hours
entuland: some people simply have such kind of memory
Noclip[m]: Jup
entuland: some also say that anyone has such kind of memory and for some reason we simply don't have access to it
Noclip[m]: I would probably start forgetting the beginning after a few minutes.
Noclip[m]: <entuland "some also say that anyone has su"> Which package do I need to install? Is it in the ubuntu repo?
entuland: eheheh
Noclip[m]: Do I need a special kernel for that?
Noclip[m]: <entuland "eheheh"> Downloading brain.iso now
Noclip[m]: Hopefully I won't brick my brain during the installation.
entuland: no guarantees given
wsor4035: testing to see how things are from the other side of the matrix relay
wsor4035: seems to work well
erlehmann: i am fully aware this is corporate propaganda, but it might work for minetest too? https://blogs.oracle.com/developers/how-to-set-up-and-run-a-really-powerful-free-minecraft-server-in-the-cloud#sign-up-for-an-always-free-account
exe_virus: Wow, that's not going to be abused ;)
[0]: AWS and GCP also have free tiers, but Oracle's free tier is especially generous.
AntumDeluge: I know the core devs are probably overwhelmed, so I'm sorry, but I want to request a review of pull request https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11202. I haven't heard any feedback on it for just over a month. Would have posted this in the #engine channel, but wasn't sure if there were any core devs that don't use Discord.
AntumDeluge: Probably should have said that in #minetest-dev-irc.
[0]: notanewbie: PM an op once you've fixed your connection.
AntumDeluge: Just learned that my PR doesn't work on Android. 🙄
independent56: ugh
independent56: minetestmapper wont work
independent56: https://pastebin.com/xVg4MDh6
independent56: with colours.txt, it wont parse properly
y5nw: colors.txt
basxto: was the freenode channel deleted and restored?
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Use safe_file_write to save forceloaded blocks 131bc753f https://git.io/JGCzo (152021-05-30T09:40:14Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix procession ordering issue in content_cao 13f30dcdb https://git.io/JGCzK (152021-05-30T09:40:14Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove unused version detection from FindLuaJIT.cmake 132c53f03 https://git.io/JGCz6 (152021-05-30T09:40:14Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix background color of formspec text fields 13758e3aa https://git.io/JGCzi (152021-05-30T09:40:14Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: script: Replace calls to depreated luaL_openlib 13a0047d6 https://git.io/JGCzP (152021-05-30T09:40:14Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Provide exact error message if postgres connection string missing 13a12017c https://git.io/JGCzX (152021-05-30T09:40:14Z)
independent56: NO GREIFING (grieving about griefing is allowed, but not greifing about grieving)
independent56: i like this rule i wrote
independent56: a bit ambiguosu, but meh
AntumDeluge: Am I correct in that the Android UI is completely separate from the desktop UI? The changes in PR ( https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11202 ) are not applied to the Android client.
AntumDeluge: That can't be right. The client's UI is defined in the built-in Lua scripts.
AntumDeluge: Oh! I think I just realized why it's not showing up. Installing a new APK must not overwrite/update the "Minetest" directory.
AntumDeluge: Confirmed, that is what the problem is.
AntumDeluge: Not sure if this is an issue only because I was using a packed with a different signature.
AntumDeluge: *package
AntumDeluge: Does that mean that every time I upgrade the client on Android, I need to delete data/cache so that the "Minetest" directory files are updated?
sfan5: that should happen automatically
CWz_: Did freenode really try to delete the minetest channel?
sfan5: no
VanessaE: but they have been taking-over other projects' channels, which is what matters
VanessaE: Minetest is small potatoes compared to some others :P
AntumDeluge: @sfan5 That was not the case when I installed my custom build. Perhaps that has something to do with the signature being different?
AntumDeluge: I'm wondering if this is actually related: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11299
AntumDeluge: It seems the client relies on the cached data to determine of the "Minetest" directory is intact & up-to-date. But it does not appear that the cached data is updated with the app (unless, as I said before, it was due to the signature of my package being different).
definitely_a: I am curious, what do the core devs think about ShadMOrdre's GAL game? Is it a possible substitute for MTG? I saw it on the forum and it looked like it could use some contributors. ;)
definitely_a: I also loaded it and it seemed like I had frozen time and space, weirdest experience since it's so unpolished.
sfan5: neard heard of it myself
definitely_a: I see, ye just asking lol! I'm always on the lookout for breakthroughs on the MTG case.
river: yo
river: show me your machines please
river: want to see cool examples of automation
calcul0n_: you should go on servers with tech mods and ask people there
calcul0n_: i'd suggest pandorabox
rubenwardy: GAL looks a kitchen sink of mods, it doesn't feel very well mamed
rubenwardy: For one, it's not a library
definitely_a: indeed, he said it's like a game abstraction layer for programmers. I then thought he just created a sandbox for coders, which sounded useful. dunno really
Benrob0329: I don't think we need a new MTG as much as we need more high quality libraries to make game-dev easier.
definitely_a: Ok thanks for the quick replies!
independent56: im wondering... if i make a fork of minetest with the only difference being adverts, will i be shunned?
river: i hate adverts
Benrob0329: Most likely yes, most people hate ads to begin with and making a money-grabbing fork is especially frowned upon in open source communities.
river: weirdly, fdroid seems ok with them
sfan5: independent56: by whom?
independent56: by the community majority
calcul0n_: so it's not "most likely", it's a big yes :p
independent56: 0_0
independent56: i guess i ebtter delete that repo
independent56: (/j)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Add core.compare_block_status function (#11247) 13c9144ae https://git.io/JGlep (152021-05-30T18:24:12Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04appgurueu -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix base64 validation and add unittests (#10515) 1389f3991 https://git.io/JGleh (152021-05-30T18:23:12Z)
independent56: what are the advtrains demo signals for?
y5nw: I suppose for testing
y5nw: There was a "7" texture in the Ks signal mod, so I supposed orwell wanted to make Ks signals more than something with only four aspects, except that has not really happened for a few years
independent56: hmm.... can i use them for my lines?
independent56: would they be allowed on LF as signals on mainlines?
y5nw: I would personally not use them. After all they are demo signals
independent56: i would use them on testtracks, those long worldedit lines, designed to test trains
y5nw: ... except I'm also testing Ks signals
independent56: speaking of worldedit, why is it when i do "//set advtrains:dtrack_st", then fix the rotation with "//param2 3", why is i that sometimes they nap back to param2 0?
y5nw: Have you tried /at_sync_ndb afterward?
independent56: hmm...
independent56: oh my god.... thank you so much!
independent56: now i am not being punished for worldedit!
independent56: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826159362225209406/848643701748006932/Screenshot_from_2021-05-30_20-24-43.png
independent56: my train always stops here
independent56: but it can go up the slope perfectly
y5nw: independent56: in case you are curious why I'm testing Ks signals: https://vimeo.com/556930062
independent56: oh my god... germany is really taking over advtrains... but idc!
independent56: i put the wikipedia page for the german signals on my kindle. and wow! i love them!
independent56: what does mud reflow mean?
independent56: . A simple mud flow algorithm smoothens out dirt / dirt with grass hills
independent56: sorry
independent56: ddg ismy only friend
Sven_vB: hi :) does the MineTest v5.4.1 client support UTF-8 in chat?
Sven_vB: also I cannot use UTF-8 emoji on signs, is it the signs mod's fault or a problem with MT the engine?
Sven_vB: they become \uHHHH
entuland: in theory they should work, probably it's some codepoint that the font doesn't cover?
entuland: I googled and I found a few discussions on github mentioning that UTF-8 should be supported
entuland: or at least, most of the issues that were there should have been addressed
Sven_vB: then it's probably converting at the clipboard paste stage
Sven_vB: thanks!
entuland: uhm... I'm not sure all the codepoints are supported
entuland: I'm doing some testing
AntumDeluge: I have another question: The Android client build from development (master) branch can access ContentDB. But why can a desktop build not do the same?
entuland: nope, can't get the chat to use the fonts I pick in the settings
entuland: the chat seems to use a font for which there is no setting able to alter it, not sure whether it's possible to change it at all
entuland: tried replacing all the fonts with Unifont (and the Upper variant as fallback), but pasting emojis or, say, russian, comes up as question marks
AntumDeluge: Oh, nevermind. I was wrong. For some reason it wasn't working for one of my builds. But it is working now.
entuland: okay, something funky is happening for sure - here is what I typed in the texbox and it works: https://i.imgur.com/ijtF4St.png
entuland: but if I copy that text from there and I paste it back, this is what I get: https://i.imgur.com/vU7hwcD.png
entuland: if I send a message with russian from a mod, the chat prints it properly: https://i.imgur.com/5oJhZ1p.png
entuland: well, not _all_ gets through properly, what I had my mod print was "русский 😃"
entuland: the smiley got lost in the chat
entuland: even though I set all my fonts to Unifont (and Unifont Upper as fallback as explained above)
entuland: something funky is also happening at direct input - I have an AutoHotKey script that lets me type greek characters just by hitting capslock, like this (random gibberish): κlθηασkδφηακσθηf
entuland: that's directly typed here on hexchat
entuland: I put such chars on the mod and had it print on chat, it works, but typing such chars in the chat prompt again gives question marks: https://i.imgur.com/O356sfo.png
entuland: posted an issue on github, hopefully it's not too crabby of a report
AntumDeluge: I hate Windows.
AntumDeluge: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/848707736317067294/minetest_dll_dependencies.png
entuland: ⊞ ♡ :P
Jordach: wtf are you even doing
entuland: I'll dare guessing "compiling minetest with visual studio or something"
AntumDeluge: MSYS2/MinGW
entuland: close enough 😛
Jordach: someone get Captain Picard on the phone
Jordach: i need a facepalm
entuland: ahahaha
Benrob0329: Is it Cygwin or MinGW that's largely deprecated now?
AntumDeluge: If anyone has a better option for Windows, I'd be happy to hear it. MSYS2 is a pain in the butt to compile the libraries as static.
Jordach: i compile just fine with vckpg and MSVC
AntumDeluge: I guess I have to give in. Never wanted to turn to MSVC.
Benrob0329: I suppose the thing is that some might prefer to stick to open source toolchains as much as possible
entuland: if I'll ever use any of the VS stuff again I'll do that within a virtual machine, too many bad experiences in the past getting the system messed up installing such things - but maybe the situation has improved
AntumDeluge: Cygwin is the only other option that I know of that offers a Unix-like environment. But I don't know if that is even developed anymore.
AntumDeluge: BTW, I don't have any problems compiling. It's just that I end up with a hundred DLL dependencies because the MSYS2 project doesn't offer static libs in their pre-compiled libraries.
AntumDeluge: And I've found that compiling my own static libraries is more trouble than its worth...
AntumDeluge: FreeBSD here I come! ...someday.
Emerald2: Are fireflies:hidden_firefly invisible or something?
Emerald2: And why does ethereal keep putting jungles right next to the snowblock biome? Would have thought the temperature values would be too far apart.
Emerald2: For context, I'm trying to figure out why a server with ethereal mapgen has barely any fireflies.
river: can i see some machines and automated systems that have been built in modded minetest?
independent56: go to any survival server, river
independent56: i think that map.sqlite should be capped at ~50 MB, as it gets large, and hard for operations like ZIP. might as well make a seperate database for each mapblock, or at leasta  different table for each mapblock
cheapie: $ du -hs map.db
cheapie: 75G	map.db
cheapie: Hmm... :P
IhrFussel: 50 MB is nothing on a server...that's like generating 1 path way (okay maybe a bit more than that)
comrad: my minetester server hast around 162M and the mineclone2 world has 149M
independent56: me too
independent56: my worlds i play on tend to be quite large... meh.
independent56: i guess i have to live with the zip command putting a progress bar on map.sqlite
cheapie: Could always switch it to leveldb if it bothers you that much - that backend does split things up.
comrad: we use borg for backup, the whole backup takes around 9s
comrad: independent56: or put the world into a database like postgres
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: UnitSAO: Prevent circular attachments 135bf7246 https://git.io/JGGSu (152021-05-29T09:44:48Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix cloud fog being broken for high clouds 13ff48619 https://git.io/JGGSz (152021-05-29T09:44:31Z)
independent56: hmm
independent56: idrc
independent56: long backups are fine, crontab runs them a 20:00, and my main picks it up at 21:30
independent56: i have like an hour and a half to make the backups
cheapie: It's not really clear to me what the problem with large files really is, anyway - surely nobody is trying to run a Minetest server with a >4GB world on Windows 98 or something.
cheapie: ...mostly because if they were, that person would probably be me, and I haven't done that :P
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix misleading /shutdown command syntax 13d7a4479 https://git.io/JGGSy (152021-05-29T09:45:04Z)
independent56: lol
independent56: im running on a 2009 computer running bodhi linux and i have 200 gb of drive space
independent56: and it is free, my parents pay the wifi and electricity costs of running the server
independent56: "free hosting does not exist" lies. i said lies.
cheapie: Linux on any sane FS (FAT32 doesn't count as sane) will handle the file sizes involved in any reasonable MT world fine.
independent56: lol yeah
independent56: "reasonable"
cheapie: ext4 in particular can handle 16TiB files - if your MT world is hitting that then you have some problems, and sqlite probably has limits lower than that too.
AntumDeluge: Are there instructions on building for Android? Nothing in the README.
sfan5: buidld/android/README
sfan5: build*
AntumDeluge: @sfan5 That file doesn't exist. Is it somewhere else?
AntumDeluge: Oh!
sfan5: huh I'm pretty sure we had that
AntumDeluge: doc/README.android
AntumDeluge: Thanks. 🙂
comrad: btw, we set up our minetest and mineclone2 server with podman / docker. Is the dockerfile interesting enough for the wiki? and/or might a systemd service unit be interesting for the wiki?
Emerald2: IMO more info about setting up minetest servers is always good.
comrad: okay
AntumDeluge: Since I don't have a verisign key, I can only build "debug" apks, right? Other than being signed, is the debug package any different?
AntumDeluge: *other than NOT being signed...
sfan5: not really
AntumDeluge: Oh good.
AntumDeluge: No performance differencs?
AntumDeluge: *differences
sfan5: nope
sfan5: the C++ code is compiled exactly the same even
AntumDeluge: Okay, thanks.
celeron55: it's just that users can't install it on top of the existing minetest app
celeron55: if the key isn't the same
comrad: is it still necessary to ask for an account on the wiki? my username in the forum is "comrad"
appguru: independent56: your parents still pay, so it isn't free
appguru: also note that running a server might make you liable if something happens, say it becomes part of a botnet
Noisytoot: dev.minetest.net's certificate has expired
j45: Noisytoot: it has already been mentioned several times...
sfan5: maybe bringing it up until it's fixed is the right strategy ;)
rubenwardy: AntumDeluge: apks are always self signed, you don't need to pay for a cert
independent56: i wish that normal advtrains signals had a yellow aspect
independent56: for "danger at the next signal", just like british ones
independent56: notanewbie has left
y5nw: independent56: real Ks signals also use the yellow aspect for "expect to stop at the next signal", except distant signals are a bit complicated to implement
ilomiglio: Is there a client mod for torch illumination? At least the server won't render the illumination for all
sfan5: there isn't
ilomiglio: I see
AntumDeluge: Thank you to the core team for the parse_json & write_json methods. They have quickly become some of my favorite features.
independent_: hello
independent56: hello!
thmh: good morning ind
independent56: im having problems with mediawiki. all it's doing is saying "this webserver does not support php".. i need to prepare an information centre for the future.
independent56: *dokuwiki
thmh: add mod_php to your webserver config
independent56: wdym?
independent56: oh wait forogt search engines existed
thmh: what do YOU mean
thmh: you're setting up you're own wiki?
independent56: yes. i am making my own dokuwiki, but cant get install.php working. on my webbook, where it will be hosted from.
thmh: what webserver did you install? nginx?
independent56: apache2
independent56: i have no experience in web servers, and im working with no idea what im doing. but i got a  minetest server to work.
thmh: yeah then my wild guess to add mod_php to your apache config is roughly the whole idea
independent56: hmm
thmh: there are also easier wikis to host, like gitit
independent56: can i have an example line. im thinking something like "mod_php = true" is this correct?
thmh: <independent56> oh wait forogt search engines existed
independent56: and sure, there are easier wikis, but then im not doing teenage experiments in my home.
thmh: also try #apache #dokuwiki #php
independent56: *concerned that the #php channel will be as bad as the language *
independent56: test server running again. go look for "56independents server" in the list.
independent56: it has an old singleplayer world
independent56: update: dokuwiki is complex to install. too complex for my little square brain. so i am not. im looking into alternatives.
y5nw: Mediawiki is IMO not bad in particular if you know how to set that up
Ingar: afaik mediwiki isnt that hard to install
* twoelk: idles around another currently silent place
VanessaE: *kaff*
VanessaE: heavy fumes, twoelk.. you better get that looked at
twoelk: :P
whosit: Hello. I want to make my item copyable similar to books but I don't have a special "empty" item. Can I use register_craft_predict() like this: https://pastebin.com/2ziEXyy7 ? It says in the api that "it should not change anything" and I don't understand what that supposed to mean.
whosit: just calling same function for register_on_craft and register_craft_predict seems to work like I want...
* twoelk: prints out some more documents at work, decides for a new pot of coffee and mourns the worlds he might have lost during a backup sequence that somehow went wrong - so much for using the more powerfull setup at the office for private stuff :(
independent56: how does the advtrains wiki put that tree to the left of the page?
iamweasel: i am not sure about this particular one, it's real easy to just inject arbitrary html into dokuwiki files
iamweasel: in fact some plugins, like translations for example, have you manually edit some template
iamweasel: a real annoyance during upgrades
independent56: hmm
independent56: yeah, i need to upgrade my version of dokuwiki, but i cant beb bothered
independent56: i cant put test servers up, as at here, i have no access to port forwarding
hanetzer: woo.
AntumDeluge: I'm getting the following error: nodes.lua:74: Attempt to redefine name of default:glass to "default:glass"
AntumDeluge: Am I misunderstanding the function of minetest.override_item?
AntumDeluge: minetest.override_item("default:glass", new_def)
rubenwardy: you only want to do difs using new_def
rubenwardy: like, things that have changed
rubenwardy: to replace everything, use register_node with the override character
rubenwardy: minetest.override_item("default:glass", { description = "one two three" })
AntumDeluge: I don't fully understand @rubenwardy. I am changing parameters of the node definition. Shouldn't that be a case for minetest.override_item?
AntumDeluge: This is my code: https://github.com/AntumMT/mod-glass/blob/c60b05d/nodes.lua#L70
rubenwardy: it's for differences
rubenwardy: you don't need to read from registered_nodes
rubenwardy: minetest.override_item("default:glass", { paramtype2 = "color", palette = "unifieddyes_palette_extended.png", groups=groups, on_dig = unifieddyes.on_dig })
rubenwardy: if you want to register from registered_nodes, you'll need to do this:
rubenwardy: minetest.register_node(":" .. glass_name, glass_def)
rubenwardy: I suppose override_item could be made to not care about this distinction
AntumDeluge: Okay, that's what I was doing before I switched to override_item. But I was getting confused because I ended up with unknown nodes. I think this is because I was calling minetest.unregister_item("default:glass") first. So it sounds like I should not unregister the node.
rubenwardy: yeah, there's no need to unregister the node
AntumDeluge: Okay, thank you @rubenwardy.
AntumDeluge: It just clicked when you meant by "differences" :). I understand now.
AntumDeluge: *what you meant
AntumDeluge: In override_item, is it okay to use {groups = {ud_param2_colorable=1}}? Or will that remove the old groups? I ask because it won't let me use {groups["ud_param2_colorable"] = 1}.
AntumDeluge: Do I first have to retrieve old groups local g = core.registered_nodes["default:glass"].groups then append to it?
FrostRanger: Are there any plans of an official announcement of the move to libera on the forums?
FrostRanger: I saw that the wiki was changed, but an announcement on the forums would likely still be a good idea
independent56: good morning!
independent56: niceee exactly 7:00
independent56: im getting "final minetest" to see how crappy it is... and if i can even play on my minetest worlds
independent56: so crappy that the downloading wouldnt even work /hj
celeron55: make sure to copy the worlds first, it could be you can't open the worlds on actual minetest afterwards
independent56: good advie
independent56: browser downloading wouldnt work, usng wget. and i have to put the "--no-check-security-certificate" flag :eyes_rolling:
independent56: wow... its actually minetest, but an older version
independent56: and woeld load times are quite slow
erlehmann: lol freenode https://www.heise.de/news/IRC-freenode-uebernimmt-Kontrolle-bei-700-Kanaelen-Libera-waechst-weiter-6055441.html
erlehmann: mentioning libera.chat is BANNED :D
AndrewYu: Which is official, hre or freenode
Emerald2: Here is, read the channel topic.
river: hey
river: i built the minetest irrilict fork into a custom prefix
river: how do I build the minetest engine now? how do I make it aware of irrilict I built
calcul0n: river, are you sure you need that? the fork already has another name (libirrlichtmt) so there's no conflict
calcul0n: but you can set IRRLICHT_LIBRARY to your path at configure time
calcul0n: and IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR probably
independent56: apt isntalled 0.4 minetest. im gonna use a .deb package insteaf
rubenwardy: You can use the official ppa
rubenwardy: !g launchpad Minetest stable ppa
Krock: !help
MinetestBot: https://github.com/sfan5/minetestbot-modules/blob/master/COMMANDS.md
rubenwardy: https://launchpad.net/~minetestdevs/+archive/ubuntu/stable
sfan5: (no google module)
Krock: indeed
rubenwardy: I swear there used to be?
Krock: perhaps from shadowbot?
ShadowNinja: ~help g
ShadowBot: ShadowNinja: (g <an alias on #minetest, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "ddg search $*".
Krock: test
Krock: ~g test
ShadowBot: Krock: Test | Definition of Test by Merriam-Webster - Test definition is - a means of testing: such as. How to use test in a sentence. <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/test>, Test | Definition of Test at Dictionary.com - A test is a series of questions or problems that is used to determine a person's ability or understanding of something. More generally, test refers to a trial, experiment, or examination that is  (2 more messages)
independent56: thx
independent56: what command do i do to prevent the 0.4 minetest being installed using the ppa? rubenwardy
rubenwardy: It'll install the latest available version
rubenwardy: What distro do you use?
independent56: bodhi, it is lightweight
independent56: (i use ubuntu mainly, but im installing on an old webbook)
rubenwardy: 6.0?
independent56: lemme check
independent56: 5.1.0, 32 bit
sfan5: if you have an old distro you probably want to build from source
sfan5: (or better yet upgrade your entire system)
rubenwardy: That's based on Ubuntu 18.04 so it should work with the PPA
sfan5: ah yea, I was thinking older
independent56: yay minetest 5.4 is running!
independent56: sfan5: this is the latest version of bodhi i have access to
independent56: 2021-05-27 19:30:43: ERROR[Main]: ServerError: AsyncErr: Failed to bind socket (port already in use?)
independent56: i give up
independent56: minetest can wait until tomorrow
sfan5: are you running a server?
independent56: im trying to
independent56: but it falls apart
sfan5: it will already be running then
independent56: wait... so the cli log just quitting means its running??
sfan5: no
sfan5: if it fails to bind to the port that usually means that minetestserver is already running and keeping that port occupied
independent56: yay!
independent56: i join with my 5.4.1 computer... and version mismatch error. do i have to downgrade?
sfan5: is the 0.4 server still running perhaps? from before you uninstalled it?
comrad: independent56: maybe the server is configured to be strict?
comrad: the key in the config would be "strict_protocol_version_checking"
independent56: hmm
independent56: will a restart stop the 0.4 server? and will it run again if i do `minetestserver`?
logger56: time to make an actual server
logger56: but now i can ban people for unfair reasons
logger56: how do i shutdown a minetest server?
sfan5: question is "how" is it running
sfan5: as a service? in a detached terminal?
logger56: i dunno, just started it with `minetest --server`
sfan5: then ctrl+c
logger56: hmm
logger56: what about with crontab? `minetest ^C` /j?
logger56: because i plan to run and stop servers with crontab
sfan5: you can also send a SIGINT signal to a process running in background
iamweasel: killing by pid seems to work pretty well
logger56: how? example?
sfan5: killall -INT minetest
sfan5: *assumes you don't have a client running and only one server
logger56: yeah, will do.
independent56: scp? nah. usb stick to copy worlds over? heck yeah!
independent56: 1,059 files 0_0
independent56: can i advertise my server for testing putposes here? (i need to see if people can join with my port-forwarding)
Krock: I think so yes
independent56: yay
independent56: then i can put it in the forums
wwar: i've time to check a test server
independent56: yeah... you will be waiting [for the main server] as all essential files are copied. but i am going to start the test server
wwar: nope i won't wait :þ
independent56: 2.31.88.15
independent56: here is the ip
independent56: port is default
wwar: k
wwar: timed out
Krock: !up 2.31.88.15
MinetestBot: 2.31.88.15:30000 seems to be down
independent56: 0_0
independent56: may be a problem on my side
independent56: sorry, i chose 3000, not 30 K
independent56: fixed
independent56: (i totally ahvent griefed with lava and admin power >:->)
independent56: that was fun!
independent56: especially throwing players into the deep underground
wwar: Hope you will success in making it what you like
erlehmann: so how is the freenode situation
x_: I believe everything has moved here now, #minetest on freenode was cleared
independent56: wdym "cleared"? by freenode staff? core devs? channel staff?
independent56: x_:
x_: channel staff
independent56: oh, thats fine
x_: yeah no coup
independent56: fuck this situation, we had to go through the pain of moving. _moving_
independent56: __test of italics__
independent56: oh
independent56: gtg
x_: italics
independent56: how did you do that? <i>using html</i>?
entuland: some special code of the IRC client
entuland: like with 4co3lo2rs
independent56: show!
independent56: tell me how!
entuland: in my case it's Ctrl+K followed by numbers from 0 to 15
rubenwardy: Yeah 04your 12client09 needs13 to 07send08 codes
entuland: I don't know the codes for the italics and other variands
independent56: hmm
entuland: s/d/t
rubenwardy: Dark magic
rubenwardy: Monospace 00,04bg
independent_: hey 5 testing 7 wow
rubenwardy: And this is how this gets banned in the channel
entuland: ehehhe
independent56: i should use hexchat
independent_: wait i havent
independent_: well, gtg
rubenwardy: I switched from hexchat to quassel because their client sync is better. It comes with a built-in bouncer
rubenwardy: Plus the quasseldroid Android app is really good
Fixer: if only there was DCC support
river: export IRRLICHT_LIBRARY=`pwd`/out/lib/libIrrlichtMt.so
river: export IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR=`pwd`/out/include
river: then i cd into minetest and try to build
river: but i get the same error
river: Irrlicht found, but it is not IrrlichtMt (Minetest's Irrlicht fork).  The
river: but it is remote.origin.url=https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht
sfan5: not export
calcul0n: i think it's cmake -DIRRLICHT_LIBRARY=/...
sfan5: pass it to cmake as -DIRRLICHT_LIBRARY=...
river: thanks!
river: I built it
river: LD_LIBRARY_PATH=../irrlicht/out/lib/ ./out/bin/minetest
river: I run it like this
river: it launches but when i try to start game i get lua errors
river: Runtime error from mod '' in callback handleMainMenuButtons(): ...netest/out/share/minetest/builtin/mainmenu/tab_local.lua:232: attempt to index local 'game' (a nil value)
river: stack traceback:
river: oh thats because i have the engine, not the minetest game
independent_: i have.. 271 mods
independent_: no wonder i keep on hitting the node limit
independent_: (line length of world.mt)
river: what are the technology and automation mods to look for?
independent_: technic, pipeworks, mesecons, digilines
calcul0n: yep, and basic_machines/basic_robot for another kind
river: thanks
Swift110-mobile: lol
Menchers: lol, this channel's still here
Menchers: suggests that the recent removal of tons of channels was pretty much just grepping for "libera" in channel topics
bigfoot547: hah yeah one quick alis query
BrBridge: 06<r​iff-IRC> ya
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> what's the thing here? has the discord been griefed?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> 0_0
Benrob0329: ?
Menchers: freenode's gotten griefed   D:
Menchers: #minetest didn't get hit this time
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> phew, at least discord hasnt lost years of archived information
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> one question: can i use my archived data from the client how i like? pastebinning stuff i want to preserve?
BrBridge: 13<t​hmh> there's already a public log https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2021-05-26
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> haha yay!
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> so that means i can pastebing >:->
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> (bing is not a bin, its a spelling error. remove the g)
BrBridge: 13<t​hmh> pastebing is microsoft's competing service
BrBridge: 10<c​heapie> Maybe PasteBing is like Pastebin but makes this noise at random: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fq6qFwcK0U&t=12s
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> and pastegoogle takes all the pastes you make, extracts data from them, ands sells it to advertisers.
BrBridge: 10<c​heapie> And PastePasteGo at least claims to be better than that but never really shows you what you're looking for to begin with?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> duckduckpaste has an auto-burn of one hour, and it's search function isnt that great (in comparison to pastegoogle's, wich always gives you what you're thinking - "bannana paste" ends up with "reasons your lover  dosent love you")
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i was typing first!#
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> this day, but  2013: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2013-05-26
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> shows you what wa sgoing on ~8 years ago.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2012-06-29
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> from when the log began
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> cool
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> im at gmt+1. BST ist cool?
Benrob0329: Am I the only one who actually has more trouble getting what I want from Google than DuckDuckGo?
Benrob0329: Maybe I just know DDG's engine better than Google's to the point that it makes a difference
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i have no trouble with either of them
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> they both give results. finding your result in a sea of bad ones was always a part of search results.
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> Ping
BrBridge: 08<M​TDiscord> <GreenXenith> Pong
BrBridge: 03<B​enrob0329> test
benrob0329: perfect
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> results inconclusive :P
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> *however they lean towards test sucess but are not statistical significant
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> heh
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> nope
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> no +V for you
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> this isn't -hub
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> but you can have a +v at least :D
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> oops
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> heh
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> I thought +m was removed from -hub anyway?
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> well he STILL can't have +V  :)
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> It would seem there is no +m in -hub here
BrBridge: 14<H​awk777> Hey folks, just checking, is the plan here that the bridge will remain in place long-term, or at least until nobody visits Freenode any more? I’m trying to decide whether I should remain in both channels (and get duplicate messages) or only this one (and potentially miss chat on Freenode should the bridge be shut down at some point).
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> just stay here
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> freenode is dead, it just hasn't stopped twitching
BrBridge: 14<H​awk777> Haha sounds good.
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> The bridge doesn't cost me anything extra to run, so it'll stay around until it can't anymore
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> not sure I recommend that, benrob0329
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> freenode's gestapo is kinda going full retard on old channels...
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I mean, sure, but I don't think that bridges are against policy, otherwise the Matrix bridge would get shut down. Besides, if the bot gets banned that just means it's time to never look back :P
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> Is there an API for the logs? Or do I have to scrape the HTML?
BrBridge: 15<S​okomine> VanessaE: can't withhold the letter V from someone! now benrob0329 has to write all words starting with v in lowercase (luckily that is no big probelm in english and chat :))
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> heh
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> If a staff decision is made to remove it I will, but I'm willing to leave it up as long as possible as well
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> (I'd like to have the full history available in Thunderbird)
BrBridge: 06<s​ofar> please stop connecting to freenode entirely
BrBridge: 06<s​ofar> the faster people leave the better for everyone here
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Sokomine: Well, I guess I'll have to call vanessaE vE from now on
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> heh
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> yeas!
BrBridge: 15<S​okomine> benrob0329: thanks for that!
IceDragon: ah, since I'm stranded here, where does channe live now?
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> yay, lowerCamelCase :D
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> yeah, just AKICK the old channels and ditch the relay.
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> it's over, really.
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> @appguru there is not, the best you get is a plaintext version; and I doubt you *really* want the full history avaialble
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> you can be sure the public logs won't be going away
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> I​ceDragon irc.libera.chat #minetest
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> I am sure that they won't be going away
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> I really want the full history however
IceDragon: Thanks a bunch VanessaE
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> yw.
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> Probably won't stuff it on my SSD tho :P
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> it's 570MB on disk
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> Oh that's acceptable
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> The only reason to relay to freenode is matrix support
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> so relay to a relay?
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> Couldn't the Matrix relay be configured to relay to Libera?
BrBridge: 11<I​ceDragon> wasn't the internet always just relays though?
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> No
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> Internet Relay Chat ;)
BrBridge: 15<S​okomine> btw, has anyone a solution to my formspec dropdown vs. scroll container problem? scrolling scrolls the dropdown if the mouse is still there...but in this case ought to scroll the scroll container unless clicked...
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> tell matrix users to get real IRC clients then
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> Because freenode runs them and the matrix channels are freenode irc named
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> it's not like Hexchat takes a lot of space or bandwidth
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> *Matrix.org runs them
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> Tell irc users to vet out of the darkages
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> *get
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> Ok, i stand corrected then
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> But I can set up some Matrix rooms and point BrBridge to them
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> Isnt matrix working on libera support tho?
BrBridge: 15<S​okomine> no, won't use discord. it's horrible. such a bloated program to get something that is *less* convenient than an irc client...no
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> As long as the relay to freenode works not much purpose
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> I can see why people won't use Discord
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> But a main advantage is definitely the message history
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> coughs in matrix
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> In IRC you have to roll your own logging
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> And bouncer
* BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> looks at IRCv3's CHATHISTORY spec
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> oh there is?
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> does Libera support it?
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> THere's been the batch type for marking it for a while now, and there's a draft spec for a command to specifically request logs.
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> And Libera is about as on-the-ball for IRCv3 stuff as Freenode was
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i just set it up
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> logger56 is the logging account
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> we don't need a second log here
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> You don't need one
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> That's why I'm planning on leveraging the existing logs :)
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> he is an old netbook. and a 20:50 every night, he packages up the chat. and at 21:00, my main gets it via scp.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i dont need one. correct. but i do liek having a private log
BrBridge: 11<J​onathon> Why not just wget irc.minetest.net
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> Mirroring the public logs is way more convenient IMO
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> it was a fun project
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> and still is fun
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Libera doesn't even support message tags, which are not really new at this point and allow nice new features
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> adv_chat parses message tags properly :)
BrBridge: 11<a​ppguru> it just has no use for them currently
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> when's opting-out of BrBridge but not MTDiscord gonna be a thing?
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> as soon as BrBridge disappears ;)
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> why does [off] apply to both
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> See https://github.com/solanum-ircd/solanum/issues/167 if you want to support Libera gettings message tags
BrBridge: 15<S​okomine> what are message tags for? what's needed is normal chat and something like /me. if that's there chat can commence. ok, and /msg
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Message tags don't replace CTCP (yet) but they provide a standard (and compatible thanks to capability negotiation) way of adding metadata to messages
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> So things like message IDs, reactions, replies, and edits, as well as marking netsplits and chat history all become fairly trivial with them
BrBridge: 15<S​okomine> ah, ok
BrBridge: 08<B​ombo> hi
BrBridge: 13<b​dju> are both minetest channels still being used for now then?
BrBridge: 13<b​dju> oh they're bridged
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> here is an excuse: i am logging incase the original logs are gone. or they are editied. or they are made innacessible by poor administration.
BrBridge: 11<I​ceDragon> nothing is stopping admins from booting the logging user though
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> IceDragon: true. but i dont think they will, as i am logging on this account. default behaviour for many clients
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> whats happening here?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> my logwebbook is streaming banned users
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> wow wtf
BrBridge: 11<l​ogger56> at least it's stopped
BrBridge: 11<l​ogger56> all of them are IP bans
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> we take it someone moved bans over?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> probably
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Correct
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> good
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> at least it wasnt my logger being banned
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> yeah they're just importing the ban list from fn
BrBridge: 15<a​lket> chat logs?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> yay!
Panquesito7: hi guys :)
hlqkj: o/
sfan5: !op
sfan5: !op
Helenah: So... how many more channels am I going to have to keep joining on here!
Helenah: Oh and hi! :3
* sfan5: waves
est31: hi
sfan5: hello
* est31: waves at sfan5
VanessaE: a wild est31 appears!
est31: :)
* twoelk: waves goodbye to the old channel
twoelk: o/
twoelk: \o
est31: freenode broke my bouncer config for some reason
sofar: nothing like freenode bringing back together good old friends
est31: I don't know what the problem is and I dont think I want to debug it at this point
Conrad: est31: Freenode breaks a lot of things :D
est31: indeed
Conrad: Can't even get op in my channel anymore
Conrad: I figure the only way to shut down the channel is to mention Libera a bunch of times.
est31: lol
est31: l*bera
Conrad: Then the freenode nazis will join and take over
VanessaE: ..and scream about freeze peach :P
twoelk: ugh, now I keep thinking of peach flvor icecream
twoelk: *flavor
Conrad: peach flavor anything is overrated
* Conrad: sings Libera to the tune of the Liberty Mutual jingle
Jordach: it really should've been called liberia chat but there we go
Conrad: My brother kept typing irc.liberia.net. I figured I'd let him figure out what he'd botched up.
sfan5: i've made the same mistake a couple of times
Conrad: If you search irc libera on Google, it pulls up a page about IRC (the foundation) and the work they've done in Liberia.
est31: lol
twoelk: I first thought of Liberace the entertainer
est31: sofar: :)
Krock: ping
x_: \o
Krock: hi xerox
independent56: is there a way to get the length of the train using luaATC? my mainline needs 2-wagon trains, oherwise the stationsare too small. summat like "if train_length() == 2 then set_line("passanger") end"
Krock: independent56: that's a question about black magic. perhaps checking the books (source) yourself will yield quicker answers
* twoelk: stares at the old dead channel and decides to take a screenshot for history
independent56: Krock: https://advtrains.de/wiki/doku.php?id=usage:atlatc:api
independent56: this does not mention of it
independent56: i wish i could
Krock: well then, dig into the source code
y5nw: independent56: afaik no
y5nw: would be just #train.trainparts though
independent56: i'll look into fixing this hole
independent56: wdym with that "#train.trainparts"?
y5nw: facepalm read the source code and you will figure that out
independent56: what file should i read?
y5nw: Somewhere in the lua automation directory (I'm reading that as well)
y5nw: Hm, there is the train_length function
independent56: ohhh! can i have a link?
y5nw: train_length = function() if not train_id then return false end; return #train.trainparts end
y5nw: advtrains_luaautomation/atc_rail.lua:86
independent56: thats intresting
independent56: lemme test it
independent56: im adding this to the wiki!
independent56: what do you think?
independent56: https://advtrains.de/wiki/doku.php?id=usage:atlatc:api&do=diff
independent56: <@603283606894280704>
y5nw: independent56: "wagon" is not a length unit like meter or inch
independent56: oh... you fix it (thats the way wikis work) /qj
independent56: thx
independent56: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/826159362225209406/847209602546532362/Screenshot_from_2021-05-26_21-26-25.png?width=1081&height=608
independent56: advtrains is great for meat farms
logger56: independent56:
logger56: fucking hell thats horrible
logger56: i wish i wssnt cursed to share the same body s 56independent
independent56: wait
logger56: why did you do that thunderbird?
loofer: What is the difference between minetest.net and minetest.org
\: minetest.org isn't an official website, AFAIK
calcul0n: loofer, minetest.net is the real one, the other should not be trusted
calcul0n: (the real answer is a long story :)
\: hah, just scrolled to the bottom and saw oldcoder's name
loofer: Okay,  I think minetest.org said something about minetest final being better than minetest 5.0
sfan5: the software offered by the other website is a fork of an outdated state of Minetest; the person running the other site is no longer part of our community due to continued threats and personal harassment
sfan5: that's about as short as it gets while covering all you need to know
loofer: Ok, thanks!
IhrFussel: It happens mostly on mobile devices since those put the game "to sleep" while in the background...now my guess is that MT actually still receives packets during that state and if the user switches back to the MT app it plays everything back at once
IhrFussel: But on mobile you disconnect ~ 30 seconds after you switched to another app and put MT into the background so the "playback length" is very short
BrBridge_: 07<i​ndependent56> i dont understand what Ks signals are better for. why should i use them? to me, they are as ugly as sin, and i feel that i should just use regular ones.
BrBridge_: 07<i​ndependent56> i dont understand what Ks signals are better for. why should i use them? to me, they are as ugly as sin, and i feel that i should just use regular ones.
y5nw: independent56: IRL Ks signals can be used as the main signal and as a distant signal, hence the German name "Kombinationssignal" (combination signal)
y5nw: independent56: also it is (correct me if I'm wrong) also introduced to unify the different signaling systems used in Germany
y5nw: Btw, the Ks signal in-game is not totally accurate in that the yellow light in the middle is used for "proceed with speed restriction of 6" instead of "expect stop at the next signal" (actually using m/s instead of 10km/h is also not really compliant to RL signals, but that's possibly done to avoid headache)
MNH48: I think that's mostly because m/s is easier to understand in game and less technical ... the actual speed unit is "nodes per second" and we always count 1 node long as 1m long
MNH48: eg, it's used in config example https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/673c29f7ea6735c15596a118fe7e6100d4a466e0/minetest.conf.example#L1451
MNH48: (the 'nodes per second' , I mean)
j45: celeron55, are you there? i just wanted to tell you (incase you didnt already know) that the certificate for dev.minetest.land is invalid
j45: *dev.minetest.net
TechDude: Hey j45
Conradish006: Interesting. For me, it does take quite a while, I went AFK once for over five hours and it took a good ten minutes to "play" everything back. Probably mostly because of the lag.
Kimapr: afaik the actual actual unit is mapblocks per second... (are replies properly relayed?)
Jonathon: No
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i dont understand what Ks signals are better for. why should i use them? to me, they are as ugly as sin, and i feel that i should just use regular ones.
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> what are you talking about?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> but im sure there is a benifit
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> is this a mod?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> avdtrains
Krock: !mod advtrains
MinetestBot: Krock: Advanced Trains [advtrains] by orwell - https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=14726 - https://github.com/h-v-smacker/advtrains_granite
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> *advtrains, the laggy mod for realistic trains
hlqkj: Ks signals can also set a speed limit on thrains, normal signals can't
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> oh wow! /srs
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> yeah, despite their uglyness, i will use them for new sections of [interlocked] track.
hlqkj: they can also be used for shunting signalling, but that is something i still need to learn
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> me too. i ahve never needed to sue shunting. just a small siding and regular mode is enough
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> and the mast wich can be made taller is always good, especially in eleveted tracks
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> if i was'nt so lazy, i would change the texture to be less fugly.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> [advtrains] routig codes? where do i go to understand them?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> main question: can i just make one long one, and the interpreter tries to find the given routing code within the train's one? example: train "S-RE-UY", signal ARS "RC S-RE"? will this take the train down the signal ARS?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> in advtrains, how do routing codes differ from lines?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> in advtrains, how do routing codes differ from lines?
BrBridge: 14<H​awk777> What did you find unclear from the documentation <https://advtrains.de/interlocking/>?
BrBridge: 14<H​awk777> independent56: What did you find unclear from the documentation <https://advtrains.de/interlocking/>?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> Hawk777: thanks! i am sooo stupid :man_facepalming
gpcf: bad bot
y5nw: independent56: Ks signals are mainly taken from RL, where they are (IMO) more useful than in-game
gpcf: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/846842267951038484/400px-Ks-Mehrabschnittssignal.png
gpcf: here, look at the beauty of ks signals
y5nw: independent56: btw, as I currently live near Heidelberg during the holiday I can take a photo of a tram signal tomorrow to compare with a Ks signal
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> wow! no ugly blue pole! just pure, confusing, german engineering!
gpcf: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/846842983688306719/450px-German_railway_hl_signal.png
gpcf: or do you prefer its commie father, the Hl Signal?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.railsigns.uk%2Fphotos%2Fp_route2%2Fpic_plji5.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> british signals sometimes have route indicators, showing wich way trains go
y5nw: independent56: how much information do British signals show in comparison to Ks signals though?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> maybe i should submit an email-issue for these
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> BrBridge: not much. pure minimalisim
y5nw: You should probably write a mod that adds British signals
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> but im used to that
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i dont wish to add to the mineest community, after how it treated me TBH.
y5nw: Well yeah, if you don't want to do it yourself and are dependent on others to do it then you are dependent on others to implement it based on their own interests
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> and sure, ks signals are "better". but remeber - the uk gets by just fine with it's signals. need an excuse for simplicity? ask us!
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> hmm
gpcf: the UK's rail is a joke
gpcf: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/846844022933028894/800px-S-Bahn_Rostock_push-pull-train.png
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> british rail takes you where you need to be. thats all that matters for us.
gpcf: these trains would be taken out by the first bridge they'd encounter
gpcf: the only double-deck train you tried was a sardine can
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> XD
gpcf: also, british rail no longer exists, so it can't take you anywhere
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> we dont need double-decker. just transport
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> unlike europe, our island is relitively small. and why would we ever retrofit our aincent bridges?
y5nw: independent56: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> why spend millions making new infastructure when you can spend a few million on carbon tax and use roads?
gpcf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ6PqpCbsLE
gpcf: also, you have this "nice" spot-welding electrification system
y5nw: Anyway, we should get back to talking about advtrains
y5nw: (and MT in general)
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> yeah... er... routing code ARS interlocking backbench what?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> obvs /j
y5nw: Anyway, it would be nice to have the type of tram tracks that are "embedded" into the road
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> just use level crossings?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> or maybe make an alias of normal tracks without the wood sleeping things
y5nw: Except the level crossings are not particularly ... intuitive
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> as i said, level crossings or no wood sleeping things.
y5nw: Advtrains lacks a mechanism for aliasing tracks for such cases :\
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> make one >:->
y5nw: If I can finish the existing things in advtrains that I am working on, yes
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> add more >:->
y5nw: Well yeah, I need to first finish the things I'm already working on (and prioritize) right now (mostly the HUD and l10n changes), and then work on things that I have not started yet or consider less important
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> how would you go about using ars rules to match an routecode of "junction station"? would you just do summat like "junction-station station-junction junction-mainline"? how would i use a routecode of "junction station junction mainline"? would i just do "RC junction station"? or is it more complex?
y5nw: The routingcode should not contain spaces
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> 0_0 i thought it was a single routecode?
y5nw: Currently there is no official support for matching multiple RCs at a time, but you can do it by e.g. specifying them separated with spaces
y5nw: That does mean that the RCs on the train would need to be written such that they match with string.find (IIRC)
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> hmm... what if i have a specific route around a strange maze-like track? do i have to put the entire routecode in?
y5nw: I didn't quite understand that
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> https://pastebin.com/76LcL4Zm
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> this is my plan, taken from my journal-notebook
y5nw: I am not sure what you are asking right now. Are you asking about how to match multiple routing codes (and does the order matter?)
y5nw: Btw: http://git.bananach.space/advtrains.git/tree/advtrains_interlocking/ars.lua
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> im just asking that i have train at point A. then, i want to take it to point C, then B. what is the reccomended way to do this using routingcodes?
y5nw: I would suggest just assigning a line number to that route
y5nw: Or, if you want to do it with RCs, and assuming that A connects to either B or C in that particular direction departing from A (e.g. a station), then you can use "A B" or "A C", but with the limitation that the RCs has to be written in that particular order and with the same number of spaces
y5nw: And if you write "A B A C" then you end up being short-circuited to the first route that matches "A B" or "A C"
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> hmm
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i will need tp learn the system much more deeply.
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> Is TenPlus1 there?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> he dosent appear on my user list. he isnt even inactive. ~libera.chat
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> ah, I see
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> maybe he stood at freenode?
Gustavo6046: nope
wwar: Tenplus1 does not be online in these times
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> yeah
wwar: He was in his server 2 hours ago
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> they are a person who is highly concerned with privacy,
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> I value that
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> in fact I once remembered an email of his concerning my PR to his builtin_item
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> I was never able to reply; it was a send-only, burner email account I think.
wwar: He knows we turned to libera tho
wwar: i talked to him (outside minetest) in forums and hub-irc only
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> ah okay
wwar: a good proof that says minetest is older than minecraft,
wwar: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/846854880495665152/Screenshot_2021-05-25-23-51-26.png
wwar: Some weeks ago we found that 2b2t server has 60+ players in server list while it has only 4 online..
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> what?
wwar: you cant see the screenshot i sent?
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> 2b2t was born in around 2010 iirc, before Minecraft had its official 1.0 release
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> is that the actual minecraft 2b2t or?
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> because 2b2t's address is 2b2t.org
wwar: no its minetest
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> ah okay
wwar: if you can see the scroonshot i sent, it says the server is up for 50 years
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> well mineclone2 isn't minecraft
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> LOL
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> ah yes, unix epoch
BrBridge: 06<G​ustavo6046> wasn't every human being born in Jan 1 1970?
wwar: atleast we prooved that mc is the copy :þ
AntumDeluge: Is the Minetest Discord server public? Or do I need an invite?
AntumDeluge: I joined this ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Minetest/comments/76ji7u/unofficial_minetest_discord/ ), but it says it's unofficial. So, not sure if that is the right one.
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> check the website
Jonathon: http://www.minetest.net/get-involved/
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> -> https://discord.gg/minetest
AntumDeluge: Oh jeez, sorry for being so ignorant. Thanks.
Jonathon: thats from when it used to be unofficial, btw welcome @AntumDeluge
AntumDeluge: Oh cool, I already joined then. :)
AntumDeluge: Thanks Jonathon.
AntumDeluge: I mean, thanks Jonathon. 🙂
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> [off] test
Jordach: oof
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> :squint:
Jordach: nice
Benrob0329: that works (though just from Libera <-> Discord)
Benrob0329: *Libera <-> Freenode
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> test [off]
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> CTCP ACTION with [off] works too
specing: Ah, that was quite a while later
Jordach: it works on both sides basically
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> erlehmann, server might be available for testing this evening
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> erlehmann, come join at lunar.cloud : 30000
AntumDeluge: Could someone translate this for me? "Packet quota used up for peer_id=13, was 256 pkts"
Jordach: extreme network load from media transfer
Jordach: 2021-05-24 03:38:59: WARNING[ConnectionSend]: con(4/1) Packet quota used up for peer_id=4, was 1024 pkts
AntumDeluge: This is what is happening on my server whenever I am attached to something like a helicopter or motorcyucle.
AntumDeluge: Causing major jitters.
Jordach: i basically quadrupled my packet quota on purpose
AntumDeluge: Can I change that in settings?
AntumDeluge: "max_packets_per_iteration"?
AntumDeluge: Mine is set to 1024.
Jordach: yes
AntumDeluge: Well, I'm not getting the message now. But still very jittery.
AntumDeluge: Is there some kind of anti-cheat causing my position to be reset if I move to fast?
AntumDeluge: Only happens when I am attached to something that moves faster than I normally would. Doesn't occur with mods that let me sprint or when "fast" is enabled.
AntumDeluge: BTW, thank you @Judge Dredd. You are the law.
Jordach: network compression when
Jordach: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/846237323930107918/unknown.png
Danil_2461: what the fuck!!!! 😳
Danil_2461: this is beatiful
Genshin: it gets even better
Genshin: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/846267254014083072/Zeus_Mode.mp4
Danil_2461: 😳
Danil_2461: this is perfect
AntumDeluge: I'm creating a mob entity with text in the nametag. But I only want it visible to a player up to a specific distance. I haven't found anything in the API about it. Is the engine capable of doing this? If not, something like ObjectRef:set_nametag_attributes({distance=value}) might be a good way.
BrBridge_: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach, i was asleep
BrBridge_: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach gib server
Jordach: 20 mins
Jordach: I am barely awake
BrBridge_: 08<E​merald2> erlehmann can watch me be really really bad at aiming. :P
Jordach: Right I need food and then I’ll be back
BrBridge_: 08<E​merald2> What is hand eye coordination tho?
Jordach: online
BrBridge_: 10<J​ordach> erlehmann, ^
BrBridge_: 07<e​rlehmann> .
BrBridge_: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach, i come
BrBridge_: 10<J​ordach> that depends
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04savilli -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix client crash on when con::PeerNotFoundException is thrown (#11286) 13673c29f https://git.io/Jsx3g (152021-05-24T17:40:35Z)
BrBridge_: 07<S​hadowBot> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11286 -- Fix client crash by savilli
Sven_vB: When I make a one block high walkway, sneak should keep me on that walkway when I move diagonally, right? but when there's a cotton plant in front of it, I fall off the walkway, into the cotton. is that expected behavior?
Sven_vB: using 5.4.1 on Ubuntu focal 64-bit
sfan5: the plan is not walkable is it?
Sven_vB: I can walk through a cotton plant with no damage to anything
Sven_vB: if you like to join the server I'm on, I can demo it
Sven_vB: odd. it seems to work when walking on papyrus in front of hemp
Sven_vB: I'll have to investigate more
Dyedefra: test
Sven_vB: oh, are sneak-to-not-fall mechanics different when part of my char is touching water?
sfan5: possible
BrBridge_: 15<S​okomine> i do have trouble with the dropdown formspec element: unintentional changes happen to it when the mouse is on the dropdown menu but the larger context ought to scroll. is there a way to require a click to the dropdown menu first?
ar10ch: what's the easiest way to quickly replace a bunch of tree schems? I made 15 with mtschemcreate but despite them being symmetrical, and having place_centre x/z, they just wont sit right. maybe its the random rotation, but without that they'd look lame. Flying or half-buried trees atm
sfan5: I suggest building from Lua the way they were done in mtg
sfan5: (https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/schematic_tables.txt)
BrBridge_: 07<i​ndependent56> im just wondering... if i had a rail tunnel and wanted to emulate wire pipes, how do i emulate shelves for them?
BrBridge_: 07<i​ndependent56> on second thoughts, i could probably use technic wire clamps
BrBridge_: 07<i​ndependent56> or whatever they are called
ar10ch: drawing them a layer at a time, like a 3d printer? I thought that would be quicker
BrBridge_: 07<i​ndependent56> https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs3-eu-central-1.amazonaws.com%2Fcentaur-wp%2Ftheengineer%2Fprod%2Fcontent%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F10%2F27122400%2Fcrossrail-tunnel.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
BrBridge_: 07<i​ndependent56> aiming for this type of wire... probably pipeline-digiline and technic?
ar10ch: sorry.. but what is yslice_prob? I checked for yslice in lua_api.txt
ar10ch: I haven't used matlab in years lol
BrBridge_: 03<C​onradish006> I am having this weird (glitch)? on Minetest 5.4.0 for Manjaro where if I go AFK for a long time and the computer logs out with Minetest still pulled up. And then I log back in after (lets say three hours), it appears to have saved what happened while I was AFK, players joining & leaving, mobs walking by, day and night cycles. And it will play all this back once I log back in and click off the escape menu. The game
BrBridge_: 03<C​onradish006> very laggy while doing this, but strangely allows you to still walk around.
BrBridge_: 05<C​Wz> very cool
BrBridge_: 05<C​Wz> kinda like a timelapse
ar10ch: ah - is yslice_prob a way of cutting off the bottom of some trees to vary the height?
wwar: that exists before MT 5.4.. i think it is a good thing also you can walk and interact yes
wwar: It does not take long tho
AntumDeluge: I am confused by this: player:get_look_horizontal() (value: 4.7080254554749); self.object:get_yaw() (value: 4.7080249786377); player:get_look_horizontal() - self.object:get_yaw() (value: 4.7683715820313e-07)
AntumDeluge: Shouldn't that be closer to 0?
AntumDeluge: Oh, it sounds like this is an issue with floating point precision.
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach you did not highlight me correctly, i just saw it by accident, but thx
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach, wtf is that mod
Jonathon: not a mod, its a game
AntumDeluge: Solved my problem with "math.floor(self.driver:get_look_horizontal() * 100)". :)
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> erlehmann, how about wizard with the engine
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach the mod is walled "wizard with the engine" ?
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> called?
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> it's a game i'm working on
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach it looks to me like you make a boomer shooter in minetest
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> considering it has quake rocket jumps
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> yes
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach, i already like it
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> it has a mix of modern FPS, classic FPS and some fanciful features like modifying your stats as you prefer
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> https://gist.github.com/Jordach/8f5b666761bec7f4cba57078d6fb4861
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> here's the nloc
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach, release when
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach, or pre-release whatever where is the repo
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> Jordach, i am interested
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> have another gif of progress https://gfycat.com/essentialeuphoricarcticseal
BrBridge: 08<E​vergreen> Wow, that's really looking good
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> afaik i'm sure minetest batches a lot of things together as single packets
BrBridge: 10<J​ordach> spawning this many minetest entities only shows a few packets
AntumDeluge: Question: Wouldn't this always return 0 if the setting isn't set? tonumber(minetest.settings:get("bike_max_speed")) or 6.9
AntumDeluge: It should be "tonumber(minetest.settings:get("bike_max_speed") or 6.9)" correct? or does it not make a difference?
AntumDeluge: Oh, maybe I'm wrong. I thought "tonumber(nil)" returned "0", but looks like it returns "nil". So either way should work.
rubenwardy: AntumDeluge: get can also return "" if the user has set it to that
rubenwardy: The tonumber(X) or 6. Ensures that it always returns a number
rubenwardy: Minetest 5.4.1 contained a fix related to this
celeron55: fyi: once the channel on the new network has more (legit) users than this one, MT's official irc network will be changed. currently it's 70 vs. 121
refugee: yeah freenode drama be bad
celeron55: make sure to follow what's happening with freenode, it's getting worse and there are also reasons talking about it publicly may be a bad idea
refugee: 0_0
refugee: where do i follow it???
Noclip: So minetest is also switching from freenode to libera.chat?
refugee: can i put it in the wiki?
Noclip: What's the current status of minetest on matrix? It's officialy listed on https://www.minetest.net/get-involved/ but irc seems to be still the main chat for minetest.
ChaosWormz: Is OpenGL 1.4 still the minimum requirement?
Krock: for shaders, you might need more
Krock: but "raw minetest" requires 1.4 at least
Jonathon: currently discord, freenode, libera, and matrix are all bridge together
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> is it ok to talk about the freenode drama here? or is it taboo everywhere on IRC?
refugee: wait.... so everything from all networks is here? 0_o
refugee: my dear golly good
Noclip: <MTDiscord "<Jonathon> currently discord, fr"> I don't think that's true or maybe you just meant it a different way.
Jonathon: you literally just saw someone from liberia, im on discord, and your on freenode
wsor4035: and im on matrix
Noclip: I'm in the official minetest room on matrix and it's not bridged with this room.
Jonathon: well yes
rubenwardy: and Im on caffeine
Jonathon: my point still stands that this here is bridged to all the channels i talked about
Jonathon: *platforms
refugee: and thats why we cant talk about it on discord.... but what about on libera? 0_o
Noclip: <MTDiscord "<Jonathon> you literally just sa"> I'm on matrix (not on freenode) but this is not the official minetest room on matrix.
wsor4035: heh, the bridge treats matrix replys terribly
Noclip: wsor: I know
wsor4035: anyways, the discord has tons of non relayed channels, the matrix room is not relayed, and there are some freenode minetest channels not relayed as well
Noclip: In short: It's a mess xD
wsor4035: yes, this. dev, and hub is relayed everywhere, then each other platform has that platform specific rooms/channels/whatever there called
Noclip: BrBridge Is used for the libera.chat bridge?
wsor4035: yes, hosted by benrob
wsor4035: who incidently "owns" the matrix room and space
Noclip: It's bridging freenode and libera.chat directly into each other?
wsor4035: ya
wsor4035: and freenode to matrix by freenode
wsor4035: and freenode to discord by mtdiscord hosted by greenxenith
wsor4035: basically bridge ception is happening
56i's alt: yeah... (imo) we need to crush down the "verbose networks" (freenode, matrix) in turn for the superior forms of communcation, like libera, forums, discord and a handful more
Benrob0329: Note that bridges might get consolidated at some point but not right now
Noclip: Some irc rooms have really interesting bridge setups xD
Jonathon: shame liberia doesnt have relays to matrix'
Jonathon: since i use matrix as my irc bouncer
Benrob0329: Honestly the matrix.org bridges have been a bit of a mess over the years
Noclip: <MTDiscord "<Jonathon> shame liberia doesnt "> As far as I know it's still work in progress.
Jonathon: bridges in general are a mess
Jonathon: btw im wsor, this bridge doesnt carry my nick for some reason
GreenXenith: Bridges, plural, are a mess. A properly implemented bridge for multiple platforms works fine
Noclip: <MTDiscord "<Jonathon> btw im wsor, this bri"> Oh lol, good to know.
Benrob0329: I wouldn't blame Libera for not wanting to reinstitute the network-wide bridges, and I'd much  rather see the display name message tag or RELAYMSG command get added to Libera
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> how did you change your nick colour? thunderbird user asking
GreenXenith: And Discord doesn't relay nicks because people can have absurd nicks and literally any char
Jonathon: maybe thats a good thing else i would get pinged all the time on matrix 😛
Benrob0329: independent56: The bridge assigns colors to users and formats the nicknames accordingly
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> oh yeah
Benrob0329: Its just for readability
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> makes sense
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> wait.. so my message appear EVERYWHERE (irc, freenode, there and here)?
Jonathon: as i told you before, yes
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> no privacy in irc 😭
BrBridge: 15<S​hadowNinja> Jonathon: A matrix bridge for Libera is in progress.
Benrob0329: They will appear on Libera, Freenode, the Freenode Matrix Bridge, and Minetest Discord's bridge.
Noclip: @independent56 and on matrix and discord.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> oh my god... i can bypass bans like this /j
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> (not really, i cant even search back)
Noclip: <BrBridge "<independent56> no privacy in ir"> Privacy in public rooms doesn't make sense at all ...
Benrob0329: ^
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i was /hj. sorry
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> and wow, those replies are truly messed up 0_o
Noclip: The best way to bypass bans is by not getting banned in the first place ...
Jonathon: yeah, but they are a expert at getting banned at this point
Jonathon: ive lost track of how many discords, and servers they have been banned from
BrBridge: 15<i​ndependent_> hexchat
Benrob0329: I could probably configure the bridge to replace the Matrix Reply syntax for bridged messages
Noclip: @Jonathon are you talking about @i​ndependent56?
Jonathon: yes
Jonathon: or there other aliases
Noclip: Why is @independent56 getting banned that much?
Jonathon: it would be rude to say....
Noclip: Ok
56i's alt: he is get banned due to hi actions. not even him understands why. it jsut happens.
56i's alt: people get tired of me.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> 0_0
Jonathon: oh look, the alt speaks on a banned platform
56i's alt: i;ll be good this time!
Noclip: I think I've never been banned from any chat room at all.
rubenwardy: I've been banned from an among us room because the host wanted my colour
rubenwardy: I didn't play among us for long
Jonathon: lol
Noclip: lol
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> XD
Noclip: I got time-banned from 2 minecraft servers many years ago.
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> as opinionated as I am, it's a miracle that I've never, to my recollection, been banned from anywhere :)
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> its not a quesrtion that if i spend eneough time somewhere, i always get banend from said place
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> its sad to know that no amtter where i go, i will always be sent away.
Noclip: In the fist case I had a pretty good kill-streak (probably mostly for reasons of luck) and plop "banned by an operator".
GreenXenith: Its almost as if theres a recurring pattern resulting in your inevitable removal that you should probably figure out and resolve.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> its the biggest riddle of my online life
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> and the reasons are always so varied
BrBridge: 15<S​hadowNinja> VanessaE: Not true, I know you're banned from at least #libera-cloak and #ve-minetest-servers on freenode.  :-P
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> that doesn't count :)
Noclip: In the second case I did some harmless bug-using in the server lobby and got auto-banned by an anti-hack software ...
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> it does!
BrBridge: 05<C​Wz> why banned from #libra-cloak
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> those are automatic services doing their job :)
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> tell me more :->
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> CWz: after your cloak is applied, a pattern ban boots you out.  flood control
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> let me just quickly restart my client
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> I didnt even know I was cloaked until I checked my server notices, the channel didnt ban me so I left on my own
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> also interestingly, when I applied the akick to the old channel, it didn't kick me out, probably because I'm the channel founder :)
BrBridge: 05<C​Wz> VanessaE, what if Bulldog1 and Bakerprime get lost in the woods
BrBridge: 05<C​Wz> and never find us
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> the akick message points them here
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> plus they could easily ask via one of the servers
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> er, points them to this network anyway :P
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> rather quiet here... lets spark the chat:
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> rust > lua
Noclip: xDD
GreenXenith: error[E0308]: mismatched types. Expected CompiledLang, found ScriptingLang.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> lol. but rust guarntees memory safety... and you can probably make a mix of the two.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> ...hello, we meet again.
GreenXenith: Lua scripting embedded in a Rust application sounds like a win to me.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> yeah, to me too!
y5nw: I thought someone wrote a Lua API for Rust? (never used Rust myself though)
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> hmmm...
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> if i get someone's user id, i can ping them. just plop it inbetween "<@" and ">", and it should ping.
GreenXenith: The bridge will convert discord mentions automatically
BrBridge: 15<S​hadowNinja> There are a couple crates that wrap the LUA C API.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i thought that the conversion occur as soon as the message is sent to the server, not via bridge. its how discord mentions work.
GreenXenith: Discord mentions are created on the client side
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i wish i had a dormant alt that nobody knew about, wich i could use to take screenshots. but i dont. i burnt mine.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> makes sense
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> if mention == "at me" then
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> ping()
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> else if mention == "at someone else" then
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> pingSomeoneElse(mentionTo)
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> end
BrBridge: 05<C​Wz> lel
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i forgot
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> newlines cant go into irc 🤦‍♂️
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> https://pastebin.com/Q54bLc89
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> here is the joke
y5nw: wonders why independent56 needs two variables for mentions
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> XD
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i code horribly. sorry
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i fuhae my connection lapses
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> resay everything you said during 21:43-21:50
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> there was nothing
BrBridge: 15<S​hadowNinja> GreenXenith: what software do you use for the bridge?  It doesn't respond to CCTP VERSION.
GreenXenith: BrBridge isn't mine
GreenXenith: BrBridge uses Matterbridge, DiscordMT uses reactiflux/discord-irc
GreenXenith: MTDiscord*
Benrob0329: I don't think Matterbridge cares about CTCP at all, other than maybe filtering it out if messages
Benrob0329: *of
BrBridge: 15<S​hadowNinja> Matterbridge responds to CCTP VERSION (although it identifies itself as girc, the IRC library it uses) and seems to relay CCTP ACTION (/me) properly.  And yeah, I meant the Discord bridge.
Benrob0329: Oh, fair enough (I had seem reports of otherwise but good to know)
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> B​enrob0329: would you mind taking dark blue out of the nickname coloring the bridge is doing? it's unreadable on black backgrounds
BrBridge: 15<S​hadowNinja> Maybe it puts the \x01ACTION later in the message and not all clients recognize it?  It works in my client.
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> time to reignite the chat
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> haha multikraft is 100% better then minetest ever could be
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> obviously /j/s
Jonathon: are you trying to cause drama?
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> no... just want to talk
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> i know... explain to me why advtrains is brilliant
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> *linux
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> brainslip
Jordach: local man has doubt
BrBridge: 07<i​ndependent56> hey
BrBridge: 11<e​st31> hello
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> hello
BrBridge: 11<e​st31> libera works
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> [off] test
Benrob0329: VannessaE: I don't believe I can, however you should probably alter your client's color scheme so that all colors are legible
Benrob0329: Also, I need to add a message filer so that any [off] messages aren't bridged
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> :(
BrBridge: 14<x​_> hello
* BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> shrugs and adjusts that color entry
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> hi.
BrBridge: 15<S​hadowNinja> @Benrob0329 also look into setting up discord bridging so we don't have two nested bridges.
GreenXenith: That is already the plan
Benrob0329: ^
Benrob0329: To be fair though, the bridging is fairly homogeneous on Libera now so I don't think it's a big issue
Benrob0329: Though it looks a bit crap on Discord
BrBridge: 15<S​hadowNinja> Yeah, the double bridge stripping is pretty cool.
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> what are [off] messages
entuland: I've seen that prefix on many messages to "tag" them as off-topic
xerox123: it's to stop them being relayed or logged by the bot
Genshin: hope you guys over at IRC like what you see 🙂
Genshin: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/846172771008249866/screenshot_20210522_124321.png
Jonathon: Well, are you using the player_api mod?
Jonathon: *and depending on it
AntumDeluge: Yes: optional_depends = player_api; if core.global_exists("player_api") then
AntumDeluge: print("Using player_api: " .. tostring(core.global_exists("player_api"))); Output: "Using player_api: true"
Benau: hello rubenwardy... not sure if i can find "MoNTE48" here......
Jonathon: oh duh, you need to set the player in the player_api.player_attached[playername] AntumDeluge, i read over the player_api jogged my memory
Jonathon:  //lua player_api.player_attached["wsor"] = true --no idea what you should set for the value //lua player_api.set_animation(minetest.get_player_by_name("wsor"), "sit")
AntumDeluge: Thank you Jonathon!
AntumDeluge: I'll try it out as soon as I get done submitting an issue report for a mod.
Jonathon: https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/mobs_redo/src/8012250258243709e95ff178d62e6a069ef74afa/mount.lua#L162 lol, guess true is correct
Jonathon: and np
Jonathon: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/player_api/api.lua#L116 for anyone who wants to know the specifics
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> VanessaE: do you still use loadstring() in APIs?
AntumDeluge: Thank you Jonathon, it worked.
BrBridge: 13<b​enimautner> https://youtu.be/T0NYZDGTA5g the l0de radio hour is live! IRC's FINEST HOUR, the late night call in show where you are the star! Call in live, tonight's episl0de: A Small White Dog
BrBridge: 08<E​merald2> lolwut
AntumDeluge: So it seems that with newer mods that attach entities have not problems with "entity:set_yaw(player:get_look_horizontal())", but when trying to update old mods to use "get_look_horizontal", it's always about 90 degrees off. Anyone have any idea why? Does it have something to do with something hardcoded into the model?
AntumDeluge: Example: motorbike mod does "bike:set_yaw(placer:get_look_horizontal())", player view & motorbike aligned...
AntumDeluge: Trying to convert hovercrafts: self.object:set_yaw(clicker:get_look_horizontal()) -- player view is about -90 degrees from front of hovercraft
AntumDeluge: After attachment, the values of self.object:get_yaw() & clicker:get_look_horizontal() are the same (or nearly the same), but still the view is off.
AntumDeluge: get_look_yaw description: Angle is counter-clockwise from the +x direction.
AntumDeluge: get_look_horizontal description: Angle is counter-clockwise from the +z direction.
AntumDeluge: I'm not that good at math, but I'm thinking I use pi to compensate?
AntumDeluge: Ah! The fix is "clicker:get_look_horizontal() + math.rad(90)"
AntumDeluge: Doesn't explain why the fix is needed, but it works. :)
BrBridge: 14<w​grant> /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\
BrBridge: 14<w​grant> /!\ JOIN #HAMRADIO TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\
BrBridge: 08<E​merald2> Wow spammers already?
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> Emerald2: they've been hitting the network since it launched :-/
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> also YAY, my servers are all back up and running :D
BrBridge: 08<E​merald2> Go figure. :/
BrBridge: 08<E​merald2> Yay for running servers though. :D
BrBridge: 08<g​ehmehgeh> hmm, some other migrated channels have relays between the old Freenode channel and the newly created one on libera
gehmehgeh: ah
gehmehgeh: this, too :D
gehmehgeh: *this one, too
gehmehgeh: ECHO! :D
BrBridge: 08<g​ehmehgeh> echo
BrBridge: 08<g​ehmehgeh> *scnr*
Spectre: Ok
Spectre: Some bot
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: GUIEditBox: Allow selecting and copying read-only texts 1393f43c8 https://git.io/Js9TD (152021-05-22T12:39:41Z)
Sven_vB: hi :)
Sven_vB: I'm trying to find the definition of utf8_to_wide_c(). is it this? --> src/gettext.h:48:extern wchar_t *utf8_to_wide_c(const char *str);
Sven_vB: oh, I misread grep. actually I'm looking for utf8_to_wide, without the _c
Sven_vB: I guess it's src/util/string.cpp:90:std::wstring utf8_to_wide(const std::string &input) + src/util/string.cpp:149:std::wstring utf8_to_wide(const std::string &input)
sfan5: yes
wsor4035: test
Jonathon: yay
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> <celeron55> my terminal font doesn't have the pickaxe so i get colorful boxes
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> the solution is to install GNU unifont
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> only terminal font i know with monochrome emoji that are actually, for the most part, recognizable
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> (disclaimer: i made a lot of emoji for unifont, but that was years back)
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> (so i might be a bit biased)
Jordach: erlhemann: here's the MT engine doing something crazy
Jordach: https://gfycat.com/grayimpracticalamericansaddlebred
AntumDeluge: Is there a feature I can check before choosing to call between `object:get_pos()` & `object:getpos()`, `object:set_yaw()` & `object:setyaw()`, etc.? Or is it not possible to keep backward compat in this case?
GreenXenith: getpos is so outdated I dont think its worth keeping backwards compat
GreenXenith: but you can do local get_pos = object.get_pos or object.getpos
AntumDeluge: Okay, that's good to know. Makes things easier.
AntumDeluge: So there appear to be a bunch of different versions of the horse...
AntumDeluge: kpgmobs ( https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=8798 ), mob_horse ( https://content.minetest.net/packages/TenPlus1/mob_horse/ ), whinny ( https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=17170 ), lott ( https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=5578 ). Is anyone aware of which is the original?
AntumDeluge: I created my own horse based on kpgmobs, but I'm wondering if that is the original horse. I want to make sure I get attributions correct.
BrBridge: 15<S​eirdy> test
BrBridge: 14<g​ry> 1
Jonathon: bridgeception
BrBridge: 14<H​awk777> Clearly what we need to do now is get MTDiscord to join the libera.chat #minetest so we can create a loop.
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> and then make a protocol for detecting loops
Testmine: test failed
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> benrob0329: sorry about earlier, with the ircv3 stuff. we tried to discredit their efforts over some honestly minor issues.
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> You're good, I do the same thing sometimes but need to remember that largely volunteer projects are doing their best
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> <Hawk777> Clearly what we need to do now is get MTDiscord to join the libera.chat #minetest so we can create a loop.
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> <Soni> and then make a protocol for detecting loops
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> Hawk777 Soni there already is a type of message that bots should use so there is no loop
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> in IRC
* twoelk: watches as speech from different sources unrolls and is broadcasted to different channels
twoelk: I do remember all the noise when several VE servers where connected to the same irc channel
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> BrGandalf to BrBalrog on the BrBridge: Thou Shalt Not Relay!
twoelk: hmm, using "/me" could be translated better through the bridge
twoelk: or rather the use of could be indicated better :-)
Dyedefra: Hi, i want build minetest-5.4.1 on GNU system, but require IrrlichtMT fork, idk how do
Dyedefra: help pls :c
sfan5: you can clone it from https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht and build it
sfan5: uh but actually
sfan5: 5.4.1 does not run with irrlichtmt, you need irrlicht
sfan5: which your distributions can probably provide
Dyedefra: oh
Dyedefra: maybe im in wrong branch (?)
Dyedefra: what MT version require irrlichtMT?
Dyedefra: 5.5 maybe?
wwar: I've mentioned before that password registering screen (in android) was small..  Just noticed 'change password' one is small aswell
wwar: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/845256749124157460/Screenshot_2021-05-21-14-07-05.png
sfan5: Dyedefra: yes, 5.5 will
sfan5: try `git checkout stable-5`
Dyedefra: builded! thanks!
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> why is minetest on fdroid so old? https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.minetest.minetest/
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> there's currently no automated way of building mt android fully from source, but f-droid requires that
VanessaE: If anyone comes looking for my Minetest servers, I am in the process of an OS upgrade on the server machine.  Including the time it takes to make and restore the backups of /home, it'll be some hours before they're back up.
VanessaE: (the backups are on an offsite storage VPS, so the limiting factor is mostly the network)
VanessaE: ShadowBot and my quassel instance will both be down for the duration as well, in case ShadowNinja comes sniffing around 🙂
BrBridge: 15<S​okomine> AntumDeluge: there're also the petz horses/ponys that are about to take over many worlds. they even allow breeding for speed
Sokomine: ah. a bridge between both networks? fine!
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> The bridge will be going down for a few while I do some reconfiguring
twoelk: discord bridge is falling down falling down my fair lady
specing: I wish
noobgamerz: stop such the segregration lol, don't be so all-elite attitude
Dyedefra: oh a bridge bot! Is a LUA bot? someone can share the bot code?
benrob0329: It's matterbridge (written in Go): https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge
Dyedefra: oh
Dyedefra: thanks!
benrob0329: It's a pretty well rounded bridge, it can connect to several different services
benrob0329: apologies for the join/leave spam, I'm trying fighting with multi-platform bridging atm
BrBridge: 14<C​alinou> hi :)
Benrob0329: test
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> no pain no gain :P
Benrob0329: Discord bridge no longer adds another prefix Libera side
BrBridge: 10<i​amweasel> is BrBridge a bridge bridge??
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> No, its Benrob's Bridge :P
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> though I suppose it is bridging a bridge, so you're technically right
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> I don't get join/leave spam thanks to a Hexchat plugin I've added that only shows relevant joins/leaves
CWz: what is BrBridge
BrBridge: 08<[​0]> Bridge between Freenode and Libera Chat.
erlehmann: I guess BrBridge was made so that the crypto bro still gets all the chatlogs
BrBridge: 03<S​wift110-mobile> how is BrBridge set up?
sfan5: it is clearly an interim solution
BrBridge: 03<S​wift110-mobile> oh my bad I misunderstood
BrBridge: 03<S​wift110-mobile> Im gonna get people to manually come to Libera
BrBridge: 03<S​wift110-mobile> don't know if I want to connect Libera to discord though
technerdz: just leave it connected via bridge like how it is now, more interconnection is always better since more people can participate in discussion without needing to download yet another piece of software just to connect to IRC just for this game project, and potentially needing to let it run in background so that all chats are still there to read if
technerdz: missed, when they have multiples of other dev projects that use other single software for communication
benrob0329: Heh, the global notice about Libera Spambots is funny, because there were freenode spambots on Libera the other day
Jordach: mood
BrBridge: 08<[​0]> There should really just be one bridge that connects to all platforms so we don't have the nested bridging issue.
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> *shrug*
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I can connect BrBridge to Discord, but it works fine IRC-side (as well as any IRC bridge does at the moment)
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I actually bridge my game's Discord, IRC, and Matrix together now using it
BrBridge: 05<C​Wz> impressive.
technerdz: I meant that as in continue bridging, not necessarily continue using the multiple bridges... if they can all be combined into just one bridge then that's much better
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Well, I'm also battling my long-time enemy, @ everyone pings in Discord
technerdz: there's setting `AllowMention` in matterbridge, which seemed to be added around last week or so
technerdz: https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/wiki/Section-Discord-(basic)
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Yeah, I'm grabbing the lastest git rather than the stable now
Krock: @everyone
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> :trollface:
technerdz: I mean, currently different bot is bridging freenode<-->discord where the ping wouldn't work (whereas BrBridge is bridging libera<-->freenode so it's handled differently)
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> so we already lost op
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> after celeron55 told us to not lose it
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> clavi?
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> hey
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> well the oldschool way was to pass op around, evidently that didn't happen
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> though I see there's chanserv already
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> yeah, you can use chanserv to get op if needed
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> I don't know if that's set up here yet
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> it is
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> oh good
entuland: is my client freaking out or libera is disconnecting others as well every now and then?
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> works for me
entuland: must be my connection... sigh...
BrBridge: 07<r​oben1430> Yeah Libera is doing what Freenode used to do to me sometimes and timeout
BrBridge: 07<r​oben1430> Also bridge restart
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> useless info: current libera servers are 5x Hetzner (DE), 1x Linode (UK), 1x OVH (PL), 1x Sunet (SE), 1x Seeweb (IT)
technerdz: I hope OVH doesn't caught on fire though
BrBridge: 12<y​ushyin25> /)))))))))
BrBridge: 12<y​ushyin25> //) __   __\
BrBridge: 12<y​ushyin25> C==/_o|^|o_\            /!\ IRC.LIBERA.CHAT IS THE BEST IRC NETWORK /!\
BrBridge: 12<y​ushyin25> |      _\  ) /!\ THE JEWS HAVE TAKEN OVER FREENODE, CHATS HAVE MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT /!\
BrBridge: 12<y​ushyin25> \   .--- /             /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
BrBridge: 12<y​ushyin25> _/`-. __.'_  /!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
BrBridge: 12<y​ushyin25> /` \`'-,._./|\
BrBridge: 12<y​ushyin25> /    \ /`\_/\/ \
sfan5: thanks bridge, very useful
BrBridge: 08<l​uk3yx> Ugh
Krock: lmao
xerox123: not a bad ASCII face
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> pls op me
entuland: I feel a urge to move to Africa right now
Krock: text wrapping kills it
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> can't you op yourself with chanserv, rubenwardy
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> I don't have permission on the access list
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> celeron55 does though
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> not even hop?
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Staff need ops over here
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> not sure what hop is
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> apart from stuff in beer
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> half op
BrBridge: 05<C​Wz> I don't get, why it always 'the jews' with these trolls
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> its low-hanging-controversial fruit
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> CWz: common 4chan/altright lore
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> also yeah, they're the center of a lot of conspiracy theories
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> rubenwardy: TL;DR if Op is the sheriff, Half Op is the undersheriff
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> it's an underrated irc feature imo
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> even though every client and network I can think of supports it
BrBridge: 08<l​uk3yx> Freenode and Libera don't
xerox123: im getting SASL only
xerox123: which is annoying because I can't connect to make a services account
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> irc.libera.chat/6667?
benrob0329: *confused "that doesn't help the libera channel" noises*
BrBridge: 08<l​uk3yx> Hi xerox123
specing: It's time for Africa
BrBridge: 15<c​lavi> luk3yx: huh, til
BrBridge: 11<e​poch> speak of the devil
epoch: this side of the bridge can't see why I said "speak of the devil"
epoch: celeron55 joined. or someone that grabbed the nick.
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> You're in Discord or Freenode?
BrBridge: 11<e​poch> that's freenode epoch
Yaya MNH48: you would see MTDiscord in addition if it was from discord
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> I'm on the Libera network, I see Freenode/Discord the same from here
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> benrob0329 removed the MTDiscord part
BrBridge: 02<c​eleron55> what do you like those colors, on the freenode side we've tended to disable them but haven't done that here yet
sfan5: colors aren't disabled here fyi
sfan5: only in -dev I think
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> I like it
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> (WIll do my best not to abuse lol)
celeron55: wait what's the color disable flag
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> c I think
sfan5: +c
celeron55: -dev and -hub have it, this one doesn't
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> nuuu
epoch: 2,5colortest
BrBridge: 11<e​poch> colortest
celeron55: colors are basically the emojis of IRC, in terms of annoyance
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> :P
BrBridge: 11<e​poch> what are emojis in IRC then? mojibake most of the time?
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> My emoji plugin is brok
BrBridge: 10<c​heapie> epoch: Mostly unrecognizable tiny symbols.
celeron55: if you need an emoji in IRC, you have to call the unicode consortium and ask them to add it
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> isn't the color thingie necessary to have the bot use different colors for the names in the bridge's messages?
sfan5: ⛏️⛏️⛏️Minetest⛏️⛏️⛏️
BrBridge: 11<e​poch> if it doesn't come from the unicode consortium it is just sparkly embedded image
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> My client supports the nicer versions of them https://i.imgur.com/gJ6JRrX.png
BrBridge: 05<g​arywhite> I had no idea IRC even supported emojis
BrBridge: 10<c​heapie> garywhite: IRC is just text and so are emojis, it would take extra effort to *not*.
celeron55: these days IRC basically defines text as utf-8 (not really, but de-facto), and utf-8 includes emojis
entuland: Lone_Wolf: yeah, mine too 😂
entuland: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/845403341185744976/unknown.png
rubenwardy: !rainbow unicorns
MinetestBot: 4un7ic8or3ns
celeron55: !rainbow 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
MinetestBot: 4😂😂7😂😂8😂😂3😂😂
BrBridge: 05<g​arywhite> cheapie: Ah okay, I guess I've just gotten spoiled on Discord, lol
celeron55: does someone's font rendering color those pickaxes?
sfan5: I have microsoft fonts installed so emojis render in color here, yes
sfan5: if they were grayscale !rainbow would probably work on them
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> ⛏️⛏⛏️
epoch: https://thebackupbox.net/~epoch/incoming/2021-05-21T20:51:28+00:00.png https://thebackupbox.net/~epoch/incoming/2021-05-21T20:52:43+00:00.png
sfan5: !rainbow ⛏⛏⛏⛏⛏⛏⛏
celeron55: my terminal font doesn't have the pickaxe so i get colorful boxes
MinetestBot: 4⛏⛏7⛏⛏8⛏⛏3⛏
sfan5: yep
entuland: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/845403890660409354/unknown.png
BrBridge: 10<c​heapie> I have a color emoji font (but not an MS one) on here, and have IRC color codes disabled anyway.
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> Yeah, mine is in-font it seems
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> ruby, greenium and sapphire pickaxes?
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> btw MinetestBot isn't registered here
celeron55: entuland: that's an epic rendering
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> none of the above pickaxes went through as colored for me (but the ones I sent got colored for me as shown in the screenie)
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> Does your client strip colors?
entuland: mine does not
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> bridge does(?)
celeron55: the bridge strips colors
celeron55: but uses them itself
celeron55: such a selfish bridge
entuland: all the names sent by the bridge are getting colored for me on hexchat
entuland: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/845404550160580638/unknown.png
epoch: q/names
epoch: derp
BrBridge: 13<r​ubywarden> libera is under DDoS currently, which is why there were disconnects earlier
BrBridge: 11<s​fan5> official info or guess?
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> from #libera-dev
BrBridge: 03<x​erox123> hello
Pexin: unintentional ddos because too many new users all at once?
BrBridge: 11<r​ubenwardy> bonjovi
BrBridge: 08<[​0]> VanessaE: how's that OS upgrade going?
BrBridge: 08<[​0]> There's that, but I'm not surprised to here they're getting a proper DDoS given how much abuse the network has been having in its first few days.
* BrBridge: 04<t​woelk> notices some discord server also under attack
BrBridge: 05<C​Wz> [0],  VanessaE is offline but she can be found on discord
BrBridge: 08<[​0]> CWz: Yeah, I know, I'm using the bridge.
Benrob0329: Please don't disable text formatting, its legitimately useful for expression (and also making the bridge look nice)
Benrob0329: Disabling it because some people abuse it is like disabling all emojis because of your grandma.
entuland: https://tenor.com/view/rage-grandma-angry-mad-throw-gif-15746344
entuland: disables throwables because of grandma
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> ah, the bridge doesn't yet convey the "/me doez ztuff" format
* luk3yx: wonders if it does from IRC
* BrBridge: 11<e​poch> hides from the bridge
epoch: it treats it as just another message it looks like
* epoch: tries other direction just to double-check
GreenXenith: fwiw, Discord /me msg is identical to _msg_, so IRC -> Discord just converts it to that, and Discord -> IRC doesnt bother changing it to * name msg
entuland: ah yes, it's just a fancy italic in disguise here on Discord, I forgot about that
AntumDeluge: I'm looking at the mobs_redo code for examples on how to change player animation. I tried using "sit", like is done here ( https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/mobs_redo/src/8012250258243709e95ff178d62e6a069ef74afa/mount.lua#L174 ) but doesn't work for me. Any guesses as to why?
ungali: is there an active #minetest there?
entuland: there is
ungali: might as well take the jump now
cheapie: ungali: There is, yes.
ungali: it
ungali: s a shame though
entuland: the cycle of things 😄
Jonathon: shame libera doesnt bridge to matrix (that i know of)
specing: Would be nice if we also lost the discord bridge in the process
Kimapr2: why? is the discord bridge bad?
cheapie: specing: I mean... it doesn't seem to be there yet, so there's still hope :P
Kimapr: the discord bridge is here
specing: Discord is a proprietary chat network, so it would be hilarious if Minetest were to keep bridging to it after migrating to libera chat because freenode became proprietary
specing: And, it is also funny that all these projects (Minetest included?) that depend on GitHub, a proprietary closed-source social coding network, are migrating to libera chat
specing: My face is red from all the facepalming
epoch: where the like button in this IRC thing?
Warr1024: Apparently freenode became "proprietary" back in 2017 and people just managed to keep it subtle up until lately.
Quiark: specing: now consider all those cryptocurrency projects that have big mouths about "decentralisation" and then use Medium, Telegram and/or Discord
specing: yes, hypocrisy all around
specing: Minetest is not free software
specing: Minetest is free software in license only.
specing: the spirit is dead
specing: if there ever was a spirit, but probably not.
Quiark: I don't blame people for not having time to work for free on something
Jordach: Quiark: >not mentioniung signal
Quiark: No signal never claimed anything about decentralisation
Quiark: But a lot of people are projecting that on them as if it was the solution to all problems.
Jordach: shitpost: use iMessage for minetest communications
Jordach: call me a madman but the FSF should've foresaw freenode getting rekt years ago
sofar: FSF isn't relevant for freenode
sofar: and FSF is irrelevant nowadays almost anyway as well
GreenXenith: re: Discord bridge: 99% chance of staying
Benrob0329: It's funny seeing people any non-Discord platform complain about Discord, and people on Discord complain about literally any other platform. Funny how people forget that it's ok to have different priorities than each other.
Benrob0329: *people on
Benrob0329: Personally, I want to move because I like the (previous) Freenode staff and feel that they will have the community's best interests in mind long-term.
justcommenting: > Would be nice if we also lost the discord bridge in the process
justcommenting: we should actually add more bridge to more platform instead of losing any of existing bridge
justcommenting: people should be allowed to use whatever platform they like and still be able to participate in the discussion
justcommenting: being all-elite and insisting on just one platform is not healthy at all, that's called 'segregration'
justcommenting: not everyone would want to install IRC client just for one specific project when they already have other platform installed for all other projects
* twoelk: is somehow reminded of the childrensbook hero Noddy
Zander_200: hi
benrob0329: test
BrBridge: success!
BrBridge: failure!
BrBridge: well, one of the two
BrBridge: No nicks, I'd think that would be a default settings but I suppose not
BrBridge: 13<b​enrob0329>Test
benrob0329: Test2
BrBridge: 13<b​enrob0329>I forgot the space, but at least it works
benrob0329: Is Libera giving anyone else trouble at the moment?
rubenwardy: no?
benrob0329: hmm
benrob0329: Maybe the server near me is just having issues, or it's my network
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> test
benrob0329: There we go
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Discord bridge ignores it (as expected, both should send notices) but I can always add the Discord to this bridge is GreenXenith wants it all to be homogeneous
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> *if
rubenwardy: what is that?
benrob0329: Bridge to Libera, was suggested and approved by C55
benrob0329: (only approved by, was not suggested by C55)
benrob0329: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest-hub/2021-05-20#i_5821807
benrob0329: I haven't added -hub yet because I want to make sure this is working properly before tying it to an account and dealing with autovoice
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> oh, I thought it was for Discord, so it's bridging to the-other-place-that-shalt-not-be-mentioned? eheheh
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> For now, yes. I may add other official spaces to it as well in the near future but for now this is fine
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> cool
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> benrob0329: The Discord bridge doesnt ignore it, its just not bridged here yet
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> It's also down atm, dunno if that's intentional or not
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> It is not intentional, no..
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> Will the bridge you have work the same as the current bridge?
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> As in send messages to Discord via Webhooks? Yes.
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> its an intense of https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> Can it send to the 3 channels already?
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I don't have -hub added yet because I don't want to deal with autovoice right this sec, but yes
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I don't have staff anywhere on IRC anymore so I can't do that without someone like VE lending a hand
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> a
GreenXenith: b
GreenXenith: c
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Fair enough
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> We can adjust it later, I dont have time or energy to work with this right now
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> It works and that's all that matters
entuland: noice
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> wow that was quite a delay ahahah
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> 2 minutes flat :P
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> aaaand we'll get people calling other people BrBridge in addition to MTDiscord :P
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> Now what happened
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> Is it just me or are both bridges choking
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> your messages went through instant to Discord on my end
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> Yeah, after a while
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> and mine as well just went through immediate now
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I think Libera is choking a bit
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> Cant imagine why :)
entuland: yeah eheheh
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Definitely not because of the sudden rush of new people
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> maybe it was just a temp hiccup, now it's quick both ways
BrBridge: 05<G​reenXenith> Oh man I only just now noticed the <BrBridge> <MTDiscord> <entuland>  this is getting out of hand, now there are 3 of them :D
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> :P
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> [05-20 17:56] <GreenXenith> Oh man I only just now noticed the <BrBridge> <MTDiscord> <entuland>  this is getting out of hand, now there are 3 of them :D
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> now there are 6 ;)
GreenXenith: yikes x)
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Apparently there's a draft IRCv3 RELAYMSG spec for spoofing nicks, dunno if Libera or Freenode supports it though
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> the discord one used to rename itself to match the sender on the other side
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> I guess that's not feasible here on IRC
GreenXenith: It still does
GreenXenith: You just have to be speaking from Freenode for it to do so atm
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> on Discord all the messages are sent as BrBridge on my end
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> ah sorry, I missed that bit
GreenXenith: Because BrBridge is the one bridging from Libera to Freenode
GreenXenith: so anythingon Libera shows up on Freenode from BrBridge so MTDiscord displays it from BrBridge :]
GreenXenith: Dont worry its totally not confusing at all
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> eheheh
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> well, as lont as it doesn't loop it's already great :P
BrBridge: 10<e​ntuland> s/lont/long
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Could be worse, I could be bridging joins/parts too :P
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> there's a CTCP for spoofing nicks
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> (please don't use it)
VanessaE: do like kaeza's hexchat script does for Minetest IRC bots:  <botname> <username>  blahblahblah  gets shortened to username@bot_abbreviation blahblah
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> https://github.com/SoniEx2/CTCP-S/blob/master/ctcp-s.md#forward
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> (please don't use it. altho if you do, put it at the end of the message instead of the start.)
VanessaE: er shortened to <username@bot_abbreviation> blahblah
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I'm hoping for either the RELAYMSG draft or the Display Name draft to become standard
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> client-only tags > CTCP
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> benrob0329: CTCP > waiting decades for server-side support
VanessaE: for example, <KAYLRP@VEBL> How are you?    is how that person's chat looks coming from my Banananananananaland server
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> (also do either of those half-assed specs actually support nested bridges?)
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I mean, IRCv3 has gotten decent support for universally helpful things like SASLv3 and Capability Negotiation
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> yeah but it never goes far enough
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> there's no IRCv3 server-specific emoji for example
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I'd assume that a good bridge would see the intended nick and use that, so theoretically yes they'd support nested bridges
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> no that's bad
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> it should relay the whole chain
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Also, you're quick to call a draft spec you know nothing about half-assed and start complaining about the progress of something which has helped the state of things and is continuing to make progress
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I'd rather see IRCv3 fix the basics and make the spec consistent than do what Matrix did and focus on anything but
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> they keep ignoring real-life use-cases because those don't fit neatly in their model, rather than trying to make space for them
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> and there's also the whole "let's just keep sending passwords in plaintext to the server so the server can freely log it, and deprecate everything else while at it" issue
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> What, and what? First, no, that's a generalization (and a poor one at that). Second, sure, but SASL supports other auth mechanisms nowadays too
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> (paraphrasing your own messages) "the draft spec doesn't contain provisions for relaying the whole relay chain with the message"
BrBridge: 08<l​uk3yx> There is a channel for IRCv3 discussion, if you had any ideas maybe that'd be the place to send them?
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> this is bizarre
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> with the two bridges
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> <benrob0329> I'd rather see IRCv3 fix the basics and make the spec consistent than do what Matrix did and focus on anything but
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> lol
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> matrix is hilarious
BrBridge: 07<e​rlehmann> matrix has these examples in the spec … that do not match the spec
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> also: if the "other auth mechanisms" are only EXTERNAL... ugh
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> (altho TLS-SRP with EXTERNAL wouldn't be half bad. but that's beside the point.)
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Send your ideas to #ircv3 then :P
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> But I don't think it's unreasonable to not directly support bridge-chaining, since bridge-chaining is a bit PITA and it's better to support most use cases sanely than every use case insanely. Anyways, I'mma drop this before the channel is completely flooded with offtopic chit-chat
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> "just use a stack .-."
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> benrob0329:  "flooded with offtopic chit-chat"  oh, like there's anything else going on in here? :P
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> anyway sure, if we can get unbanned from IRCv3 we'll propose RFC 7628 support :3
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Actually yeah, Oauth for IRC SASL sounds nice
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> VanessaE: That's a good point, I suppose there isn't any on-topic discussion going on right now
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> Also unrelated but kinda related, apparently doing a ctl-z followed by running `bg` lets you move a process to the background in bash
BrBridge: 14<S​oni> yeah ctrl-z is awesome
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> I knew it was a thing but wasn't sure of the specifics and didn't want to inadvertently kill the bridge
BrBridge: 02<L​one_Wolf> equivalent of `command & disown` but during runtime?
BrBridge: 10<V​anessaE> I usually nohup command &
BrBridge: 07<b​enrob0329> VE: Well yes, but I didn't for testing initially and don't really care about logs in this case
wsor4035: something like that :P
AntumDeluge: :)
wsor4035: (not related to approval at all) but https://content.minetest.net/packages/AntumDeluge/server_shop/ what is the point of compared to any other shop mod that provides a admin vendor/admin settings for a vendor?
AntumDeluge: I hadn't come across a shop that I liked, so I just made my own for my kids' server. Submitting it in case others might like it.
AntumDeluge: I believe all other shops that I looked at have a limited inventory as well.
AntumDeluge: Limited as in only a certain number of unique items can be added to the shop.
Jonathon: 🤔 heh
Jonathon: fair enough
AntumDeluge: But I may be wrong, I didn't examine the other shops super-thoroughly.
AntumDeluge: Looking over the shop that comes with the currency mod, I'm reminded that I didn't find one that let me set the item I wanted in exchange, or currency, without actually having one in my inventory. But again, I just may not have researched deep enough.
Sven_vB: I'm working on a login manager for MT 5.4.0 on linux. I use --password-file for giving the password. Is there a way to tell MT that I intend to register a new account? The "wrong password" message should change to "Username already in use". If it's available, I'd like to skip the confirm password dialog, or reduce it to an "accept the rules" dialog if necessary.
AntumDeluge: local foo={bar={}}; core.write_json(foo); -- this outputs '{"bar":null}'. Is there any way to get it to write '{"bar":[]}'?
AntumDeluge: I've tried core.write_json(foo):gsub("\"bar\":null", "\"bar\":[]"), but for some reason it appends a "1" to it.
AntumDeluge: *appends a "1" to the end of the line.
AntumDeluge: Nevermind, I got it figured out by storing it in a local variable first.
VanessaE: ATTENTION  A number of people probably read about the hullabaloo going on with Freenode staff.  including a leaked draft of a resignation letter.  I just learned from Fuchs, it's official now.  resignations incoming.  The "leaked draft"  is no longer a draft.   https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
VanessaE: idk what kind of timetable they're looking at, but there it is.
Ingar: allright time to install my own IRC server
VanessaE: the chat network mentioned at the end of the letter is likely where "Freenode" is going, but it is not publically-accessible yet.  They're still working on it.
Ingar: VanessaE: it is somewhat ironic though you post those links from Discord ;)
VanessaE: heh yeah I suppose
VanessaE: I've just come to like DC more than plain IRC, go figure 🙂
entuland: I like'em both but IRC still has its charm <3
sfan5: hope you have set it's UI to "IRC mode" at least
sfan5: its'*
VanessaE: I do 🙂
Ingar: from a technical point of view, discord aint bad, fixes a numver of IRC's shortcomings
Ingar: on the other hand, it's yet-another-closed-source-chat
Ingar: which will probably die when the next big thing comes along
Ingar: I totally assume discord already sells all their userdata
PiMonkey: The amount of stuff nowadays that probably sells data means unless you really try its likely unavoidable xD
Ingar: my biggest issue with discord is the fact it's not an open protocal
Ingar: *protocoal
Ingar: oh well
Ingar: that word
Ingar: (I wish I could crawl back into bed ;) )
VanessaE: protocol*
Ingar: thanks!
luk3yx: Oh my
VanessaE: you forgot <voice="George Takei">   😛
hlqkj: has anyone else received that message from -jess- of the freenode staff? i have just joined #freenode and seems like an earthquake is shacking the community, with a possible drastic outcome -- what will be of #minetest and related channels?
rubenwardy: This is being discussed currently
sfan5: and don't expect a conclusive answer within hours
rubenwardy: Yeah
hlqkj: oh okay! i don't, was just surprised no one was telling nothing here :)
Kimapr: i also saw it
jess: hey hlqkj, that's me
hlqkj: i see
hlqkj: sorry, i got alarmed probably bc i heard nothing of all this till 20mins ago. seems the thing has been going on for some time now, maybe even already discussed here
pgimeno: https://kline.sh/
pgimeno: I'm concerned about my data and will be deleting it irrespectively of whether I stay or not
pgimeno: deleted, but according to https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461 I'm late to the deletion
erlehmann: crypto bros ruin fucking everything
sfan5: pgimeno: even if you had done it yesterday I'd expect account data to still exist in several backups
erlehmann: <Ingar> from a technical point of view, discord aint bad, fixes a numver of IRC's shortcomings
erlehmann: Ingar, https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord
erlehmann: Ingar, discord is hilariously buggy, read that article
Ingar: erlehmann: I mean, as a concept. evidently it can't be trusted. it is closed source.
erlehmann: Ingar i don't get what is nice as a concept
Ingar: erlehmann: I can paste images!
Ingar: erlehmann: I've been on IRC for 25 years now, I'll keep using it until someone prys it from my cold dead hands
erlehmann: Ingar well technically it is a link to an image and not only do irc clients support that, but also xmpp has a more privacy friendly version of that
Ingar: erlehmann: tbh, I do run IRC in a screen session on a VPS. No images there
Soni: riff_IRC: we're moving to libera now
riff_IRC: ok
Soni: (this "we" includes minetest, incidentally. but yeah we already deleted our nickserv and whatnot.)
pgimeno: sfan5: doesn't mean the backups are in the hands of the new company
specing: hi
specing: Are the cheat-client-we-should-not-mention devs contactable via a non-proprietary/closed-source chat (IRC, Matrix, XMPP?)
erlehmann: specing, for dragonfire it might be EliasFleckenstei – for waspsaliva it is cora
erlehmann: on irc here
sfan5: you can probably @ them here and tell them to join irc, if they're one discord
erlehmann: i think
sfan5: (discord bridge)
erlehmann: specing do you have a new cheat?
Kelticfox: bloody hell, this place still exists
erlehmann: Kelticfox not for long i guess
Kelticfox: hahahaha
Kelticfox: haven't been in here for years
specing: erlehmann, sfan5 : oh, It hadn't occured to me to try to /whois their nicknames in commits
erlehmann: specing, i assume you mean https://github.com/EliasFleckenstein03/dragonfireclient
specing: erlehmann: well, yes and no: I have my own "cheat" client
erlehmann: so have i
erlehmann: but it is pretty basic
Kelticfox: seeing if there is anyone I still know that was here when I had to deal with all the drama
specing: and my own CSMs, but I'm thinking about rebasing upon waspsalive / dfc
Sokomine: there are still a lot of great servers out there to enjoy :-) so fire up your mt :-)
VanessaE: guys, please move all chat to irc.libera.chat #minetest.
rubenwardy: are we officially doing it now?
sfan5: it's not even ready
VanessaE: sfan5 it's already sorted and working.
GreenXenith: Do you have logging? And perms? and bots?
rubenwardy: we have ownership of the channels. The staff are still overloaded with requests
rubenwardy: Logging and bots needs sfan to change configs
VanessaE: well idk who gets to move the bots 😛
VanessaE: (come to think of it, I guess *I* have to move ShadowBot since ShadowNinja is gone as usual
sfan5: I'd give it at least one more day for things to settle down
VanessaE: ohh ffs, there's too much crap to change to move ShadowBot
VanessaE: why does ShadowNinja always have to pick complicated shit.
VanessaE: puts it back up for now.
VanessaE: let HIM move it.
Kelticfox: Ah, there's people I know!
pgimeno: I'm working on #xxxx support, when it's ready I'll keep it until ShadowBot is migrated
riff-IRC: 'ello, any decision re: moving to libera?
Jonathon: celeron55 the channels have already been duplicated there so i guess basically you can vote for it by joining there
Jonathon: there refering to libera
LoneWolfHT: I'm not too active here so I figure I'll just make a full switch to Libera to save me the trouble of keeping an eye on the state of things
AntumDeluge: Added my "alternode" & "listitems" mods for review on ContentDB.
Jonathon: done
AntumDeluge: Wow, thank you. That was fast. :)
Jonathon: i was around, no warnings, quick check, seemed ok
Jonathon: *checks
AntumDeluge: Added my "hidename" mod to ContentDB.
Jonathon: Heh, ill look later if no one has gotten to it
AntumDeluge: No rush, just wanted to mention it.
AntumDeluge: Why is F-droid Android client repo not updated anymore? https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.minetest.minetest/
AntumDeluge: I would prefer to use that over Google Play. Releases get out faster too.
sfan5: build system issues
AntumDeluge: Oh.
sfan5: f-droid wants to build everything from source on their servers, which isn't really possisble with our current arrangement
sfan5: you can download the APK from github btw
AntumDeluge: Oh, nice! Thank you sfan5.
rubenwardy: #10529
ShadowBot: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10529 -- Create Android dependency building scripts
AntumDeluge: Interesting. I was actually thinking about suggesting packing irrlicht source with Minetest to make compiling on Windows easier.
AntumDeluge: *packaging...
AntumDeluge: (not that I am a Windows advocate, but it's what I am using right now)
AntumDeluge: Though, I don't know if irrlicht is one of the dependencies being referenced in that issue.
AntumDeluge: Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. :)
AntumDeluge: sfan5, no apk for 5.4.1 on GitHub.
sfan5: that's not on me
AntumDeluge: Just mentioning.
rubenwardy: I looked into it the other day but the build failed
rubenwardy: well, it didn't fail - when I tested I still had an outdated version
AntumDeluge: Oh, it looks like someone already suggested packaging irrlicht with Minetest: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11264
Jonathon: Its been discussed like 3 times and been shot down so far
AntumDeluge: Doesn't really matter if it's "packaged" with the source, as long as there is a way to build it alongside.
Jordach: it takes two minutes to download both and compile them
AntumDeluge: It's a little more complicated on Windows, as it doesn't use the Unix directory structuring.
Jordach: wat
Jordach: literally the same
Jordach: just with vcpkg
AntumDeluge: I use MSYS2.
Jordach: cmake gui makes it practically painless
Jordach: i'm sorry i don't speak unsupported by core dev
AntumDeluge: Guess its up to me then. ;)
ar10ch: hi - when i used clear_craft and unregister_item, the items were removed in smart_inventory and unified_inventory, but now I'm back using sfinv they're present as unknown nodes, with their original recipes. Erm.. is this normal?
Krock: bug
ar10ch: ah ok thanks
AntumDeluge: Thank you wsor4035, for approving my mods.
Jonathon: eh np
AntumDeluge: Oh, is that you Jonathon?
Jonathon: also, my nick doesnt translate over the relay heh
Jonathon: yeah
lars[m]: Hello, i'm new to minetest. I have setup an server on debian. (Systemwide) how can i activate mods and worlds? I download the files into ~/.minetest/worlds and ~/.mintest/mods how can i activate them?
MiniontobyPI: hi
MiniontobyPI: rubenwardy:
MiniontobyPI: lars[m]:
MiniontobyPI: ~/.minetest/worlds/<yourworld>/world.mt add ¨load_mod_<modname> = true¨
MiniontobyPI: rubenwardy:
MiniontobyPI: i want to report an bug
rubenwardy: https://github.com/minetest/minetest
MiniontobyPI: rubenwardy:  https://termbin.com/ki5d
rubenwardy: Would be preferred
MiniontobyPI: it is map_maper
MiniontobyPI: it is map_maker
MiniontobyPI: for ctf
MiniontobyPI: i run server for friend to make ctf maps
rubenwardy: I don't maintain CTF anymore
MiniontobyPI: oh
MiniontobyPI: who does?
MiniontobyPI: or is it no-one
rubenwardy: Lone Wolf is the lead dev
rubenwardy: https://discord.gg/vcZTRPX
MiniontobyPI: ok
MiniontobyPI: ok
rubenwardy: https://github.com/MT-CTF/capturetheflag/issues
MiniontobyPI: ok
lars[m]: <MiniontobyPI "~/.minetest/worlds/<yourworld>/w"> Thanks
MiniontobyPI: np
MiniontobyPI: im runnign 4 servers atm
lars[m]: <MiniontobyPI "~/.minetest/worlds/<yourworld>/w"> Already enabled
MiniontobyPI: ok
MiniontobyPI: then start the world
MiniontobyPI: is there somewhere the output of all the minetest.get_biome_name
entuland: MiniontobyPI: you mean how to get the list of all registered biomes? that function simply returns a string according to the biome_id you pass to it
MiniontobyPI: i need all biomes possibly to get them
MiniontobyPI: im working on mod
entuland: minetest.registered_biomes should give you all of them
MiniontobyPI: and need all biomes
MiniontobyPI: but will it work
MiniontobyPI: with the get_biome_name
entuland: I'm not sure I follow - sure it should work
entuland: but registered_biomes will only give you the biomes that have been registered in that particular world depending on what world gen has been selected and if any mod added any biomes and so forth
MiniontobyPI: ok
MiniontobyPI: is registered_biomes an id
MiniontobyPI: Map of registered biome definitions, indexed by the `name` field.
entuland: there is another function that gives you the id provided the name
entuland: you can find all of these things in the lua api: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L5039
MiniontobyPI: i got them all now
entuland: good
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: CI: add workaround to fix clang builds 134152227 https://git.io/Js0YH (152021-05-17T15:12:37Z)
MinetestBot: 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix curl_timeout being ignored for Lua HTTP fetches 13b56a028 https://git.io/Js0YQ (152021-05-17T15:12:30Z)
ar10ch: hello all - after a lot of looking around I'm left thinking that the F5 coords and debug info cannot be hidden from a player as they are a feature provided by the client.. Am I wrong? I hope so...
ar10ch: ^ I mean for a server
GreenXenith: Bug the devs about getting https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/9315 merged
ar10ch: I will... but how?
GreenXenith: Good question :] Bump the PR or something?
ar10ch: ah now its finally loaded - yes I read that last night, and Wuzzy's preceeding post also - it is true that it makes no sense in a survival server
whosit: Hello. After some mod doing player:set_fov(0.9, true, 0.4) and then  player:set_fov(1, true, 0.4), player is unable to zoom anymore. Even after dropping/picking up binoculars again. How to restore zoom?
celeron55: whosit: https://minetest.gitlab.io/minetest/class-reference/#objectref
celeron55: "Set fov to 0 to clear FOV override."
celeron55: (https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L6424)
whosit: oh.
whosit: thanks. Was staring at those and didn't notice :\
AntumDeluge: How long does it usually take for a new mod to get reviewed on content.minetest.net? Just curious because I added it about a week ago I think. Didn't want to submit any more until I got at least one approved.
Jonathon: you do not have the right to that name
AntumDeluge: "No other packages of the same type may use the same name, except for the exception given by 3.2."
AntumDeluge: "An exception to the above is that mods are allowed to have the same name as a mod if it's a fork of that mod (or a close reimplementation). In real terms, it should be possible to use the new mod as a drop-in replacement."
Jonathon: https://content.minetest.net/packages/Zughy/whitelist/
Jonathon: seems @rubenwardy opinion is needed
rubenwardy: I'm not  too concerned as neither of those have APIs
rubenwardy: so I think it's fine
Jonathon: approved then
AntumDeluge: If I submit a new mod, should I mention it here? Doesn't seem to get noticed on ContentDB. Didn't get any response on it?
Jonathon: you could, i look at it once/twice a week
AntumDeluge: Okay, thanks.
AntumDeluge: Am I correct in assuming the "topic move request" thread ( https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10418 ) is dead now that ContentDB is in place?
Jonathon: no, you can still request your mods be moved on the forums there, but active forum staff is rare
AntumDeluge: Okay.
wsor4035: i am on irc via matrix btw, but i dont check it as often as discord
AntumDeluge: I asked about this a few days ago, but the person I spoke with didn't know about it. Perhaps rubenwardy, sfan5, Jonathon, or somebody with more knowledge about the engine core could give me some insight....
AntumDeluge: I'm building a mod that overrides some items, nodes, & ores from `default`....
AntumDeluge: Overriding the items & nodes is no problem, but I didn't find any specific method for unregistering/overriding registered ores...
AntumDeluge: I'm wondering if it is okay to do `core.registered_ores[ore_id] = nil` or if that will do something unsavory....
AntumDeluge: My code is here: https://github.com/AntumMT/mod-mineral/blob/f39edd5/api.lua#L85
Jonathon: i would think thats fine, however try it and find out
Jonathon: you can do similar to that for abms
AntumDeluge: Thanks Jonathon, I have used it. I just didn't know if something was going on behind the scenes that I could see.
AntumDeluge: *couldn't see
Jonathon: https://github.com/BuckarooBanzay/eco/blob/master/mods/builtin_disable/init.lua reference for abms
AntumDeluge: Thanks, I didn't even think about the need to unregister ABMs & LBMs.
sfan5: modifying an entry in core.registered_anything is typically wrong
sfan5: because then you change a definition on the Lua side while the same definition still exists in C++
AntumDeluge: Is there a proper way to unregister ores, LBMs, & ABMs?
AntumDeluge: I didn't find any method for ores like there are for items: `core.unregister_item`
sfan5: you can only clear all ores
sfan5: LBMs and ABMs cannot be removed, you could potentially just modify their functions to do nothing (this will not save you performance however)
sfan5: honestly if you are making changes this drastic you need to fork default
sfan5: and not write a mod that throws out half after the fact
AntumDeluge: default is a soft dependency. It registers its own ores regardless of whether default is being used. It's meant to be able to move away from dependencies on default.
AntumDeluge: I'd rather patch the core engine than remain bound to default.
AntumDeluge: Sorry, I won't respond for a bit. Gotta go. I will be back later this evening.
sfan5: so you have a mod that touches existing content so far that it needs to remove a lot AND it also supports multiple games?
IhrFussel: Does rapid changing of metadata in nodes also affect clients that are far away on the map? I sure as heck hope not
IhrFussel: But right now a certain player on mobile experiences lots of lag as others work with mesecons and digilines and I wonder if this could be a coincidence
IhrFussel: Looks like it fixed itself, but I still wonder which clients actually get affected by nodemeta changes...only those that have the map parts in view?
sfan5: yes
hisforeverkid: Hi Whitchmod has the GATE controler in it?
Jonathon: mesecons i would guess
hisforeverkid: thanks MTD
erlehmann: <specing> Matrix is mess of javascript requiring a supercomputer to render text
erlehmann: that is true
erlehmann: <benrob0329> Between competing XEPs, overcomplicated standards, and clients which are either dead, undergoing UI reworks, or are majorly incomplete, XMPP is just as much of a mess as every other slightly aged protocol
erlehmann: benrob0329 not exactly true. compare the number of known-good interoperable xmpp clients and their interoperable features with *any* other protocol and you'll notice that is *a lot* more than for any other protocol.
benrob0329: I don't think that's entirely accurate, but depends on your definition of a "good" client
benrob0329: Conversations and the new MUC XEP both give me some hope for the future of XMPP, but the protocol is still waaay more complicated than I'd like (although it being general-purpose at the base-level does open up some cool possibilities)
erlehmann: benrob0329 what criteria would you set? the three that come to mind immediately are MUC / OMEMO / sending images
erlehmann: benrob0329 IMO protocol comlexity is only an issue when it actually inhibits something. for example, matrix has some things that are underspecified or the examples are not matching the specification, thus it is too complicated. also the matrix protocol requires some resources that make it unlikely there is ever going to be a performant way to follow big chatrooms (unless they changed it since last i looked).
erlehmann: looking at a spec in a vacuum can be useful, but the real world exists and some fantasy chat clients don't
Jordach: and people wonder why discord swept the floor with them
erlehmann: did it?
Jordach: ask someone who isn't versed in open source to choose between discord or matrix
erlehmann: Jordach the discord login page lags my computer (which runs minetest just fine, lol)
Jordach: not my fault your hardware is older than children turning 16
Jordach: (jesus fucking christ)
erlehmann: almost right
erlehmann: its from 2006
erlehmann: no its not your fault but maybe a chat application should not use more resources for its login screen than a voxel game for its entire run
Jordach: the problem is using web frameworks for something they should not be used for
benrob0329: erlehmann: Feature-complete-enough MUC settings, decent UX (if it's not worse than Hexchat at the very least), and multi-client interopt. Gajim sucks a bit on the UX department, PSI+ does a lot, and Dino isn't feature complete enough to use as the only client
erlehmann: uh where is gajim worse than hexchat
erlehmann: i use both
erlehmann: also gajim is pretty easy to hack on!
erlehmann: i did hat more than 10 years ago
erlehmann: that
erlehmann: ah i know
erlehmann: gajim freezes sometimes if your connection stalls
erlehmann: that is bad
Jordach: for the record, the most mem discord prefers to use with the desktop app (alongside it's somewhat egregious caching of other channels in the background) is about 512mb
erlehmann: Jordach popularity means nothing except popularity.
erlehmann: i have about 2G RAM here and i have a handheld that has about 256MB RAM, both can run X11 and speak IRC and XMPP just fine
Jordach: it got it's reputation in that it works for the majority of people
erlehmann: its a gamer thing Jordach
Jordach: they rebranded from that recently
Jordach: like days ago
erlehmann: no i mean its a gamer thing because of the resources
erlehmann: every single person who has "no issues with discord" i chatted with or met has a gaming supercomputer
Jordach: chrome right now on a single page is comsuming under a gig
Jordach: hell discord runs fine on my 2013 MacBook Air with 4gigs
Jordach: my windows system has been online for 21 days and has accrued about ~12GBs of memory leakage that it won't clear
erlehmann: jordan4ibanez for example made a youtube video where he spawned hundreds, if not thousands of mobs in mineclone2 without any lag
erlehmann: i can not do that even on the most powerful computer i have
Jordach: trust me
Jordach: his machine is peanuts compared to the Apple M1 MacAir i use for developing minetest with
erlehmann: yeah ok so you do have a supercomputer
erlehmann: but the point is not everyone has
Jordach: relatively speaking
Jordach: CPUs from early 2012 are fine for modern tasks
erlehmann: regarding chrome, lol, i just tested it and i can have hundreds of tabs open in firefox and 3 tabs oben in chrome
erlehmann: and chrome is using a significant faction of the firefox memory
erlehmann: about 20 tabs of youtube and i can lag any machine i have in chrome
Jordach: meanwhile firefox barely supports any standards other than plain HTML5
Jordach: HTML5 on paper is a good specification
erlehmann: "chrome is the standard" is like "look, we have found a replacement for internet explorer, everyone use it"
Jordach: the implementation is abhorrent
erlehmann: whatever, i just care i can open hundreds of tabs without lag
Jordach: i have a python app with 65GBs worth of sqlite dbs running in the background
Jordach: consuming about 1GB of mem
erlehmann: also i have earlyoom and despite it accounting for chromes high oom score, it still kills chrome tabs before anything else wheneever i try
erlehmann: which is funny
erlehmann: Jordach i don't know what exactly you want to argue except that YOU have a bunch of really powerful computers. as i said, not everyone has. i know several people, who, for example, play minetest and *coud not ever* play minecraft on their computers with comparable performance.
erlehmann: could
Jordach: i mean dirt cheap desktops for $300 would wipe the floor with any 2010 and prior hardware
Jordach: even the iGPUs of modern chips might as well be better than whatever PCI-E GPU you've got strapped in
erlehmann: regarding matrix, i stopped using it for performance reasons.
erlehmann: regaring discord, the *real* issues are not the client: https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord
erlehmann: regarding
Jordach: ah yes my favourite
Jordach: foss guys complaining about something that has no actual basis or effect
Jordach: matrix does this on it's website and is fucking annoying
erlehmann: this one is the funniest
erlehmann: > I'd post more examples, but they're harder to find because a few months ago Discord staff wiped the bug report boards, deleting several years of issue reports. These issues still persist to this day.
erlehmann: Jordach what does matrix do on its website, complain? or say "discord bad"?
Jordach: what i'm referring to is the constant need to put itself higher cause muh open source
Jordach: regular users do not care about that
Jordach: only developers and programmers do
erlehmann: pretty sure that cadence is not a guy, but i guess that's beside the point
erlehmann: Jordach i agree to some extent, it is not inherently better just because the source is out there
erlehmann: Jordach but discord would be a shit show even if that was the case
Jordach: i like it when open source software disguises the fact
Jordach: that it is open source and just from a visual inspection looks like a regular aopp
erlehmann: well you have a really new apple machine so i guess you are somewhat biased
Jordach: the ContentDB gets shit
Jordach: for being dark theme by default
Jordach: and people for some weird arse reason associate that with hacking
erlehmann: towards the point of "i like it when my tech does not talk about its politics"
erlehmann: lol
GreenXenith: discord rebranded from being a gaming thing over a year ago
Jordach: partially true
Jordach: Mac gives me a UNIX like env where i can get GNU userland
Jordach: but not deal with linux specific shit when it decides to break on its own requiring me to spend a day re-installing everything
erlehmann: GreenXenith i do not mean the discord branding, i mean it is entirely logical that the chat client using THE MOST resources from all i have tried (by far) is also one that gamers use bc they have supercomputers (compared to every computer i have)
GreenXenith: I was commenting on what Jordach noted earlier
erlehmann: ah
Jordach: i like the GNU tools
Jordach: as well as the other UNIX programs
Jordach: i like them a lot
erlehmann: Jordach my experience with OS X is that a bunch of stuff does not work and can never be made to work and if it can be made to work it breaks with the next upgrade
Jordach: i do not like living on the knife edge where a wrong command fucks me over
erlehmann: ?
Jordach: linux for a huge number of tasks still depends on the TTY
erlehmann: are you regularly typing "sudo rm -rf /" and only GNU tools option "--no-preserve-root" is helping you?
Jordach: despite the fact there's a functioning GUI
Jordach: which is crusty as fuck and needs modernisation and or UX fixes
erlehmann: Jordach i stopped using OS X about 2 years ago, can OS X by now do the thing where you can pin a window to be always on top of it? because there were windows that could be always on top (wifi password dialogue) but i found NO option to pin an arbitrary window, which was really really annoying
Jordach: the base WM for macOS is terrible
Jordach: i will concede that
erlehmann: can we agree on "software was a mistake"
Jordach: there are extensions that make it much more inline with KDE
Jordach: yes
Jordach: i appreciate the values the GPL and other foss licenses bring
Jordach: i do not appreciate the use it or die mentality that comes with it
erlehmann: what does that mean
erlehmann: when daddy turing gave us the theory of thinking rocks it was not an instruction manual, it was a warning!
Jordach: see MS' acquisition of GitHub
Jordach: reee MS going to kill it
erlehmann: github was bad before though, centralization is bad etc. pp.
Jordach: well yes
Jordach: changing the git remote of an existing repo is reasonably straightforwards
erlehmann: also basically everything MS acquires kinda sucks sooner or later in some very microsoft-specific way. you can count on that like everything being acqui-hired by google soon to be sunset. :P
Jordach: with google everything has a death clock
Jordach: except the ads
Jordach: with microsoft it's guarantee'd it'll be relatively supported for at least a decade
erlehmann: btw "open source" is a business term for people who think "free software" sounds too hippie communist and that is why i don't like it and the mentality behind it. the "everyone can look at it and thus we have no bugs" thing is a lie.
Jordach: there are only bugs if you're using it wrong
erlehmann: Jordach oh lol, do you know gwerns analysis of google products? gwern did a mortality prediction and it turned out adwords had a higher survival score than search
Jordach: see the minetest issue tracker for more information
Jordach: lmao
erlehmann: Jordach its a blast https://www.gwern.net/Google-shutdowns
Jordach: now this is a motherfucking website
erlehmann: the fun thing about it: the article is old enough that you can actually fact-check the predictions
erlehmann: > Prompted by the shutdown of Google Reader, I ponder the evanescence of online services and wonder what is the risk of them disappearing. I collect data on 350 Google products launched before March 2013, looking for variables predictive of mortality (web hits, service vs software, commercial vs free, FLOSS, social networking, and internal vs acquired).
erlehmann: Jordach if the minetest issue tracker bugs you (haha) then i suggest to look at the mindustry issue tracker
Jordach: kek
erlehmann: i told my friend "hey mindustry closes every bug really fast"
Jordach: nothing like uninformed people writing bug reports
erlehmann: and my friend pointed out that the mindustry dev mostly closes issues for being not reproducible
erlehmann: and is kinda rude about it
benrob0329: Well that was a wall of messages to catch up on
erlehmann: because one rule is to add a savegame to your bug
erlehmann: and a bunch of drive-by-shooters who fire their bug reports in the general direction do not do that
Jordach: fucking hell
Jordach: i know i've written a right shit bug report
Jordach: but i try and go step by step and even include video footage of such
erlehmann: so basically, at any point mindustry has 0 open bugs and over 2000 closed ones, most of which are either very quickly fixed or closed for not being reproducible
Jordach: just like dwarf fortress
Jordach: but i'm sure in that case it isn't a bug
erlehmann: i thought dwarf fortress developers are basically ppl who can't program?
Jordach: that said, a big issue with homebrew on mac is
erlehmann: thus the sluggishness
Jordach: their policy of arm64 macs won't be supported is extremely fucking annoying
erlehmann: here funny https://github.com/Anuken/Mindustry/issues
benrob0329: erlehmann: Gajim has been undergoing some pretty major UX reworks over the past few years, but the new UI is still pretty unpolished last I checked. I'd argue that Hexchat has the much more mature interface, even if it is more dated overall
Jordach: i prefer quassel because of the core capability, even then i'd rather use thelounge on an archlinux server
Jordach: which means i don't even have to install the client interfaces
erlehmann: benrob0329 no idea what you refer to, could you be more specific so i start hating gajim more? (the stalling issues really bug me)
Jordach: https://gajim.org/screenshots/#&gid=1&pid=1
Jordach: this looks fine to me
erlehmann: Jordach did you ever consider the MNT reform and if so what would be your reason to not get it, performance?
benrob0329: <sarcasm>Other than the interface feeling like a barran wasteland?</sarcasm>
Jordach: i'm going to need context for that
erlehmann: wdym
erlehmann: benrob0329 please be more specific
Jordach: oh you mean this https://mntmn.com/reform/
Jordach: that's pretty neat
Jordach: like the odroid products before it
erlehmann: Jordach its the only new thing where you can change the batteries lol
erlehmann: oh this is kinda funny https://github.com/Anuken/Mindustry/issues/5241
Jordach: i mean that's not true for the most part
erlehmann: > Remote servers list refreshes whenever you change the window size.
Jordach: they're just a pain